How the H-1B Visa Program Impacts America's Tech Workers (computerworld.com) 332
Computerworld is running an emotional report by their national correspondent Patrick Thibodeau -- complete with a dramatic video -- arguing that America's H-1B Visa program "has also become a way for companies to outsource jobs." An anonymous Slashdot reader quotes the article accompanying the video:
The vast majority of people who work in IT did everything right: They invested in their education, studied difficult subjects, kept their skills updated... But no job is safe, no future entirely secure -- something IT workers know more than most. Given their role, they are most often the change agents, the people who deploy technologies and bring in automation that can turn workplaces upside down. To survive, they count on being smart, self-reliant and one step ahead...
Over the years, Computerworld reporter Patrick Thibodeau has interviewed scores of IT workers who trained their visa-holding replacements. Though details each time may differ, they all tell the same basic story. There are many issues around high-skilled immigration, but to grasp the issue fully you need to understand how the H-1B program can affect American workers.
Over the years, Computerworld reporter Patrick Thibodeau has interviewed scores of IT workers who trained their visa-holding replacements. Though details each time may differ, they all tell the same basic story. There are many issues around high-skilled immigration, but to grasp the issue fully you need to understand how the H-1B program can affect American workers.
The skill they need to teach in IT school... (Score:3, Funny)
... how to work long hours for next to nothing.
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Where did you go to school? None i've been to paid anything.
Long hours lots of tests.
Homework just in case you thought you would have free time.
Zero pay. Or if we're talking college you get to pay them $50K for 4 years.
Seems to me like they teach it already.
Re:The skill they need to teach in IT school... (Score:5, Insightful)
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It be fair, it's not ALL Americans, it's just the poor and middle classes.
... only in America do software developers making $150k/yr consider themselves "poor".
Re:The skill they need to teach in IT school... (Score:5, Interesting)
Fifteen years ago, I was offered a job at Yahoo, in California, making close to four times my then-current salary in Mexico City. About US$70K a year. That money, even today, is a shitload of money for me.
Of course, I declined. I declined even being unaware of the ridiculously high costs of living in the San Francisco Bay area — I declined because I didn't want to stop living at a city I love, close to my family and life-long friends. But yes, digging a bit deeper into what US$70K a year would be for a living there... I never looked back.
Currently, I have been employed for 11 years at the same place. The peso has slided against the dollar, so I still make slightly over US$20K a year. I live a very nice life in a house very well located. I don't have much savings, but then again, I did have something to fall on when my kids were born. Have never had a loan. My wife does not currently work, but we estimate she can go back to doing so in 2-3 years, and then we will get some savings again.
What would there be in there for me going for a life at a country that will always see me as a foreigner? Not much, I guess.
Impossible... (Score:3, Informative)
Fully impossible I say. The usual pro-H1B supporters on here say there's nothing wrong, and it's really good that all these people are being brought in to displace American works and push wages down. Just like how it's happening here in Canada with TFW's and employers are laying off employees because they don't want to pay the wage, then paying the 1/3 the wages that they were going for. And that ranges from welders and pipe fitters to skilled factory labor and IT.
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No 'highly skilled' job stays that way forever. What once required a college degree is now being taught at highschools [muskegonisd.org] as a skilled trade type job. I've talked teachers at that school and they say they can't graduate people fast enough.
Re:Impossible... (Score:5, Insightful)
They don't even teach welding in highschools anymore, you need to go to a specialty college to learn even the basics. Seems to me though, your "stuff being taught at highschool" isn't. Rather it can grant partial college credits towards an applicable program...in college, we had that 20 years ago too. But a college doesn't have to honor the full amount that is gained, and the board of education can drop the accredited amount when you least expect it.
Re: Impossible... (Score:5, Informative)
I completed highschool 10 years ago (2006).
I took Welding (Gas, Arc, and MIG), Drafting and CAD, Computer Science, Carpentry, and Electronics. My high school also offered Machining, Autobody, Small Engines, etc.
It was drilled into our heads that College/University was required to enter the real world, but many of my graduating class that took the "trade" courses went right out into the work field and learned more as they need it in the field.
I started my own business in high school doing web design. Out of high school I worked full time "regular" jobs in advertising, direct sales, retail, low voltage wiring (ethernet, coax, 18-2, 18-4), security system installation, and then locksmithing.
My business slowly grew as life progressed. While working for the locksmith I had an opportunity to focus on my business fall in my lap and I took it. Since then business has only picked up and grown year-over-year.
I am Canadian, living in Canada. The majority of my clients are in the US. :-)
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I completed highschool roughly 10 years previous to that in the middle of the 90's. My group was the last to have welding, drafting/cad, carpentry and electronics, or even basic electrical work. We were also the last group to do machining, pipe fitting, or automotive. Every program relating to that was cut, gutted, and removed. Right up until this upcoming year those programs haven't existed, they were all replaced with arts, or just really anything else that they could think of that was no use. Even t
Re: Impossible... (Score:2)
Not sure what you mean, exactly. Though you're posting as AC so probably a troll.
I never claimed to be successful at anything other than what I do now, which is web based application development.
The other things I did were just day jobs while I built my business up part time until I could do it full time. I've now been doing just that for over two years now.
The Locksmith job was fun though.
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Re:Impossible... (Score:5, Insightful)
The usual pro-H1B supporters on here say there's nothing wrong, and it's really good that all these people are being brought in to displace American works and push wages down.
The sad truth is that not all H1Bs like the situation either. I met one who worked for an American international subsidiary in India and was now a H1B in the US. Four of them lived in a two room apartment, provided by their employer. They never went out to lunch with the other American folks on their project . . . because their wages were so low, that they could simply not afford it. Instead, they went home and cooked for themselves.
The one I met lamented that he wanted to go back to India to get married and start a family. He also commented that they could sense the disdain for H1Bs among their American colleagues.
So, American workers do not like H1Bs, the H1Bs don't like being H1Bs . . . who likes the H1B concept? Oh, yeah . . . top level management. Well, at least someone is happy here.
Re: Impossible... (Score:5, Insightful)
> They could likely afford it, but the typical H1-B is hoarding as much money as possible so they can take it back to their country.
Of course they are. They're being thoughtful, responsible people planning for a future, and perhaps even planning for their family's needs. Americans spending s much as we do on "entertainment" as part of our work life, on expensive lunches and expensive hobbies is why so few of of my younger colleagues in the field have any savings, or fallback plans if their startup stock options turn out to be worthless.
There are reasons to dislike the results of H1B immigration. Fiscal caution by the H1B holders is not a reasonable one.
Re:Or Maybe (Score:4, Informative)
If you want to see the bills you will. I recently had a CT scan, the average global price for this variety anywhere not in the USA (without dye, which is evidently much more expensive) is something like $500. The place billed by insurance for $15,000. My insurance paid the (evidently badly) negotiated price of $7500. I paid $1,500 out of pocket.
I just can't even.
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They need to learn to play the game properly and share each other's tabs for lunch, then take it as a write-off.
Re:Impossible... (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, as a pro-H1B supporter, you're wrong.
I fully acknowledge that there's something wrong. Companies like TaTa being able to bring over tech-workers for non-specific, non-highly-skilled generic coding jobs, and then contract them out is very very very wrong. What that does is generates immigration of people with mediocre skill sets, who will likely be net neutral on the economy, but a net negative on the wages of people working in the tech sector.
That's really not good.
On the other hand, what H1B should do (exclusively - it does this anyway, but it should *only* do this) is allow companies to hire people for very very specific jobs, with very very high wages, where it's not possible to find someone else to do it. There absolutely are legitimate H1B workers coming in and doing jobs for Google/Apple/FB/MS etc that no one else in America has the skills to do, and being paid multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. That's good both for tech employment (as it makes products possible that weren't before, and in doing so makes companies more profitable, and hire more people), and for the economy. An all round win.
I can assure you, that if companies like Google/Apple/FB/MS could hire Americans for a role, they would not jump through the hoops of hiring a European for $200,000 a year, plus $150,000 worth of moving them to the US, plus tens of thousands of dollars in paying for visas and green cards. The key is to make sure that all H1Bs are for that kind of role, not the bullshit that TaTa does.
[Disclaimer] I'm an H1B holder working for one of the above companies in a very specialist area.
no job is safe, no future entirely secure (Score:3)
Up to date? (Score:2, Insightful)
The only response 'modern' technologies seem to get from Slashdot is how the 'old way is better'' and "it'll never work". "Those kids are going to have to deploy apache servers BY HAND like I used to. None of that Docker Cloud Crap".
For example "graphical programming languages", which by Slashdot standards are terrible, has a lot of job openings [indeed.com]. There are plenty of jobs for hardware in the loop (HIL) testers [indeed.com]. Same goes for people that know CAN/J1939 [indeed.com] and the tools that go with it [indeed.com]
For those training their rep
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One wonders why employees choose to train th
Re:Up to date? (Score:4, Informative)
Lots of people are incapable of thinking like the owner of a business, and are therefore surprised when things happen, despite it being obvious or inevitable from the perspective of a shrewd businessman. As a corollary, employees of public companies should get in the habit of reading financial disclosures and earnings call transcripts -- management often telegraphs what they're going to do, including outsourcing or layoffs. This puts you in the position of being one of the first passengers to learn that the Titanic has struck an iceberg, so make your way to the lifeboats before the rush.
A few months ago, there was an article about how the IT department at a car rental company was outsourced. Not that I'm glad or anything, but someone paying attention should *never* make a career out of working in the back office of a business like that. The car rental business is tough enough as it is, but Uber/Lyft have added additional pressure.
I work in a compliance function, so "infrastructure as code," Docker, and the rest of that shit make my life so much easier since we can automate large chunks of our security controls and audit work. That's progress. As an owner, having fewer admin grunts means more money to reinvest in higher-return activities (which as an employee you can help drive, if you're so inclined) and/or return to shareholders, who, after all, own the damn business and expect something from it.
But this hard-nosed perspective, for some reason, strikes people as cruel, or you're viewed as the villain or whatever. It's just how the world works and you have to adapt accordingly, even if it's annoying and extra work at times.
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Lots of people are incapable of thinking like the owner of a business,
If we did that the most ethically sound decision would be to kill ourselves. The sort of thinking those people engage in, while it makes sense from a very narrow perspective, either leads to sociopathy or depression. That humanity still exists is due largely to the fact that most people refuse to think like their leaders.
It's better to live in delusion.
There are plenty of job ADS. (Score:5, Insightful)
There are plenty of jobs for [this, that, and the other thing]
There are plenty of job ADS.
This is because, in order to hire an H1-B, the employer must first advertise the job to US persons.
But there are whole classes given on how to gimmick the hiring process so that anyone who applies, other than the desired H1-B, can be plausibly turned down as unqualified. The US applicants waste their time, and the H1-Bs get the positions.
Give us a call when there are plenty of HIRES of US citizens for these, or any, positions.
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This is because, in order to hire an H1-B, the employer must first advertise the job to US persons.
Not true - you're thinking of the green card process.
For H1B they must simply have shown that the job requires a specialist, and that they have the capability to pay a rate that's over the market rate for the position.
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> Give us a call when there are plenty of HIRES of US citizens for these, or any, positions.
Um, 'Murican born. 'Murican trained white boy. Getting poached by those companies because of what buzzwords are in my resume.
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Give us a call when there are plenty of HIRES of US citizens for these, or any, positions.
Tech unemployment is about 3%, compared to 5% for the general economy. Everyone I know is hiring. If you can't get hired in today's tech economy, the problem is with you.
The H1B program could easily be fixed (Score:4, Insightful)
to work the way that it is sold as working.
(1) Keep the number of H1B workers about the same.
(2) Bring fewer new H1B workers into the country by offering permanent residency to ones already here.
(3) Require participating companies to meet minimum goals for H1Bs converting to permanent residency in order to continue participating.
(4) Since fewer new H1Bs will be coming in, raise the standard so they really do bring in hard-to-find skills.
Good people don't just take jobs. They create jobs. That's why employers like to locate in tech centers -- concentration of talent. So if someone's good, bring them in and keep them. It's beyond folly to have a program which kicks good people out of the country, along with skills and know-how that they've accumulated. It's disloyal to the country.
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There is no way to fix H1B because on the day it is open, you have off-shore companies from a certain country applying in bulk for a visa for ALL of their employees.
Even if they only get 5% of the spots applied, it's a win-win for them.
Of course, if you aren't from that country or from a company like that, good luck on the "lottery".
Fix? Try $200,000 tax on corp for each H1B worker (Score:2)
Then you know the company is going H1B because there really is a shortage of workers, and not simply because they're greedy sons of bitches looking to lower their labor costs rather than paying what it takes to get the employee they want.
You can't compete with India (Score:2)
We've built our society around a social contract where you work hard, make your employer rich, and get
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It's disloyal to the country to prioritize economic migrants over citizens. One is invested in the future of the nation. The other is not.
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Re:Here's a simple thought (Score:5, Insightful)
So let me get this right..
You are voting for a guy who regularly stiffed laborers of their pay (hundreds of cases on record), who stiffed subcontractors and other businesses on their pay, and who said he was using u.s. labor when he was found to be using foreign labor.
P.T. Barnum put it best. There's a sucker born every minute.
Fortunately, Trump has basically lost the race.
Just for funsy's go to Youtube and search for "trump praise clinton". You'll see only 7 years ago he was saying she was terrific and would make a good president or vice president.
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Basically. I want more economic nationalism, less globalism. I want the trade and immigration policies of the nation to serve the interests of the workers and citizens. There's more to a nation than GDP.
"something IT workers know more than most" (Score:2)
Bullshit.
This has been happening in industries for decades, there is nothing inherent about IT workers that gives them more knowledge just because it has been happening more recently.
Re: "something IT workers know more than most" (Score:2)
So, just because it's been happening everywhere, even though it's illegal, that makes it right? Okay, sure, we'll do that. I notice very few, if any, other first-world nations are pulling this kind of crap.
Direct from the No Shit Sherlock Institute. (Score:4, Insightful)
Corporations laugh at the regulations that are never enforced unless there is some sort of massive publicity. Even then... Our congress is bought and paid for.
I'm amazed at all the idiots who think a billionaire who has gone bankrupt (yet somehow still has billions) many times with failed businesses is going to change that.
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Be a Licensed Profession, folks... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm wearying of it, but so far I just post the same thing over and over when I read about this topic. You don't see this with comparable white-collar high-knowledge professions like accounting, teaching, law, medicine and engineering. ...because they are all licensed.
This is not about unionism or protectionism. It's not holding onto the job for nationalism's sake or racism. Any race can get a license, indeed foreigners can be licensed - if they can pass the tests. Most of this outsourcing is not about putting in equivalent people; it's about being able to afford more of them and make up for the lower productivity and accuracy.
Information technology should be a licensed profession for multiple reasons; there are a lot of crappy local programmers that shouldn't have such jobs, too. This isn't about handy helpers or kid's games any more: our civilization depends on code that works right and we lose money, privacy and opportunity every day from IT failures. Medicine was not a licensed profession just a few generations back; it was licensed when it was time. For IT, it's now time.
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Why would I pay a licensed programmer in the US when I can have my projects done in any country in the world?
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The same reason these companies expensively imported people rather than sending the work to their country?
The same reason you go to an American physician rather than to India?
The same reason you have your bridge designed by American engineers rather than Indonesians? (hint: different reason on that one. It's not legal to build the bridge. What if it weren't legal to put a car on American roads without software from licensed programmers? That applies to the rest of the engineering...)
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Flying to India to see a physician is more expensive than seeing one in the US, even if the Indian physician was zero cost.
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I've worked for a few large companies and several small companies without a degree. And frequently as a SW lead. But I work in silicon valley, which tends to ignore the conventions used by the rest of the world.
PS - little 3 bedroom houses in my neighborhood are going for just under $1m now. I picked this neighborhood because it was cheap, so I don't even know how other people without double-incomes are going to find a place to live here. (not really my problem anymore, but I do feel bad for future generat
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It's not likely to be illegal to hire people in another country to work for the business you registered in that country. The sub-contractor loop hole is still not closed either. Once I have the software done on the cheap, then take the products and sell them here in the US or in Europe. Globalization has made labor regulation extremely difficult. I think a lot would have to change in how we do trade before we could fix this problem.
If I can't import software to the US unless it was made by licensed American
Increasing size of labor pool to save corps money (Score:5, Insightful)
People should stop beating around the bush and call this what it is: a government run program to subsidize labor costs for businesses and shareholders, to the detriment of American workers and taxpayers. "Fair market rates" only apply when they are to shareholder's benefit. When they actually give the worker a leg up for a change - fuck you, we're going to bring in some grads from India to do your job. Grads who can compete without five figures of student loan debt hanging over their heads.
O RLY? (Score:4, Insightful)
no job is safe, no future entirely secure
When was the last time you heard of an H-1B worker taking a politician's job?
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Politician's job? That's a real stretch of the word job, isn't it?
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Re:O RLY? (Score:4, Interesting)
I do get kind of sick of both the Republicans and the Democrats trotting out immigrants or children of immigrants as if that's some kind of badge of honor. The Republicans parade around Rubio and Cruz and Nikki Haley. Half of the speakers at the DNC were speaking spanish. Where's the speaker who says "My family has been here for 10 generations!" Isn't that kind of impressive? Maybe they've got some generational wisdom passed down? A strong stake in the future of the nation? There's nothing wrong with being from a recent immigrant family, but you'd think there'd be some kind of balance.
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Obama?
Numbers Seem Low (Score:2)
I know a lot of people here in Silicon Valley who are not naturalization seeking, and working on a visa.
citizenship (Score:2)
And I have a lot of friends who eventual became citizens after getting their first job in the US with the H1-B program.
Taking the best and brightest from other countries is in America's best interests. And there needs to be some new regulation to make it harder for companies to use H1-B as a way to train up foreign workers to prepare for a big outsourcing and inevitable local layoff.
I think the easiest thing is add new restrictions. For example, if a company has paid H1-B in the last 18 months, they should
HB-1 delayed the inevitable (Score:2)
If your job was going to go to India or some other country, it was probably going to go anyway, HB-1 visa program or no HB-1 visa program.
With HB-1 visa-holders coming her to "learn the trade" at least there are a few man-years of work being done here, with those people buying lunch and paying rent and the associated taxes in this country for those man-years.
I know my skills are "portable" and that if I plan on having a halfway-decently-paying job until retirement I need to either:
* be someone who can't be
Fix for H-1B (Score:2)
"The program was intended to serve employers who could not find the skilled workers they needed in the United States." Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa
The U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) is responsible for ensuring that foreign workers do not displace or adversely affect wages or working conditions of U.S. workers. For every H-1B petition filed with the USCIS, there must be included a Labor Condition Application (LCA) (not to be confused with the labor certification), certified by the U.S. Department of Labor.
The law of unintended consequences. (Score:2)
Well, you can try to abolish the H-1B Visas, but then, perhaps, American firms will be less competitive. And then, perhaps, the next Google will appear in China. Who knows, after some time of it, perhaps it's the Chinese who will be complaining of all those American cheap programmers that are willing to work for pennies because there is no work in their own country.
You have to recognize that America is now the leader in software services, and I'd guess that the H-1B visa program has helped it getting to tha
Society is a sham ... (Score:4, Interesting)
... the poor proles masses pay for the few rich whilst fighting each other rather than revolutionising society. Especially the "American Dream" has gone down the drain. ... All this is nothing new.
However(!!),
there is a new force in the mix, and wether it's HB1 or whatever pushing your sob-story right now, we should prepare for what's coming [youtube.com], because HB1 and the likes will be a joke compared to those overturnings ahead of us.
You have been warned.
This is why we need unions.... (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of people deride unions, but unless we have them, corporations pull this type of shit again and again. The government is either apathetic or complicit, which means the only protection for this type of shit is unions.
What else did you expect (Score:2)
in a country where "socialism" is considered an insult? You get cowboy capitalism. As long as the American people keep voting for leaders who are economical extremists in this regard it's their own fault.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: Dey tek er jebs! (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not really a function of price so much as a function of skill level. Most of the H1-B folks I've had the displeasure of working with had very little experience, skill, or talent. Were there actually a glut of workers in IT, I'd say it made sense, but there aren't, and it's getting worse every day as more are imported annually, displacing folks that make better business sense to hire in every aspect save for price. There's a saying, "you get what you pay for." It may look good on paper to replace that $150k/yr rock star programmer with five $30k/yr H1-Bs (supposedly illegal, but it happens, and more often than you think), but one high quality developer will consistently produce more and better code than an army of mediocre ones. The biggest issue with this is, even though IT business process automation represents a major part of a given company's competitive advantage, if all the companies in a market play the same game and begin to all suck equally, any lack of advantage due to poor systems becomes moot. As a result, what used to be smart work done by smart workers becomes the domain of the MyComputerCareer lowest-common-denominator. And real fast, we're all out of a job.
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And this is a strict lower bound, I make a lot more than what is reported in my LCA. Sure there is some abuse IMO 60-80k is problematic.
Most likely it seems like you just need the laws to be enforced... Like so many other broken things in America.
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How about instead of a lottery, distribute the visas starting from the top paid applications?
That would take care of the low end pretty fast.
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And replacing a local 100k developer with an outsourced 30k one is much faster than fishing for H1Bs.
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The problem is that good IT workers have no incentive to stay in the field. They go to management or they just say "to hell with this", and become a /r/sysadmin goat farmer.
I have had the dubious pleasure of working with the H-1B folks as well. A few are truly competent. However, most tend to be clueless, and at best, willing to follow a sheet or spec you give them, but can't really do more than that. For example, if you ask a H-1B DBA who knows how to work their way around a RDBMS fairly decently, and
Re: Dey tek er jebs! (Score:5, Insightful)
Absolutely!
In part, it's all about how things look on the budget sheet. Replacing one North American worker for two Indian workers - and paying less - looks good. And the numbers can be shown to management. The downside - inferior code, taking longer to produce - isn't captured as neatly. And the numbers can't be shown to management anywhere near as easily.
And one other fun fun fun detail ... managers get promoted based on the number of people they manage, not the total salary of their underlings. So replacing your home-grown, competent North American worker with multiple lesser-skilled, lesser-paid foreigners means the managers get bumped up a pay-grade.
So ... while the outsourcing (or, in the case of H1-Bs, in-country outsourcing) means that companies pay much, much more for the same software, the people making the decisions don't care about that - they care about promoting themselves.
And one final candle on the cake: the stock market punishes companies that deviate from the pack. If one company were to stand up and say "Hey, this outsourcing is costing us more! Let's stop doing it!" then their stock would take a hit. And corporations are run by the board, for the board: the largest part of their remuneration is stock options.
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Or perhaps you are a rock star programmer because you enjoy programming, and have no interest in the other 90% of the business that would be required of you if you went off to start your own thing.
Amazingly facile (Score:3)
Were those workers being replaced in a government-run program to import foreign workers to labor in Ford and GM plants to lower wages? No. Are those objecting to H1B basing their complaints on having to compete with software companies located in other countries? No.
Does that mean you have the lamest analogy in the story thus far? Yes.
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Every other complaint is just a variation on "I shouldn't have to be price competitive because I was born in America".
You meant to say: "I'm fine with a company importing in people where there is a demand for jobs that Americans could do, then displacing me from my job with someone from another country, making me train my replacement who will work for 1/4 of the wages I worked for."
Yep brilliant. Millions of people out of work in the US and not in the labor force, and you're pro "let's bring in more people, and make sure they drive the wages down" while there are people who could do the job, but the companies don't want t
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Re: Dey tek er jebs! (Score:2)
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Re:Dey tek er jebs! (Score:4, Insightful)
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Every other complaint is just a variation on "I shouldn't have to be price competitive because I was born in America".
In short - "it is reasonable for American citizens to expect a drop in standard of living down to Third World levels in order to fluff corporate profits."
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Pick a reasonable place on the chart to start the third world, and tell me that's what US companies are paying H1-B programmers. India, for example, is about $7k USD per capita. Are programmers working for that here? No, they're working for like 5x that. I bet most H1-B workers are either at or above the US level (55k).
So, what's your complaint again?
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Is the purpose of the workers to serve the economy or is the purpose of the economy to serve the workers?
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So is a nation a collection of consumers, rather than a union of citizens?
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It's amazing how much tech folk can sound like auto workers in the 80's bitching about Americans buying foreign cars. The only thing lamentable about the H1-B visa is how it turns foreign-born employees into virtual slaves of whoever their sponsoring employer is. Every other complaint is just a variation on "I shouldn't have to be price competitive because I was born in America".
I think they would have done a lot more than bitch about it if you brought in some h-1b workers to replace them and then told them they had to train them before they left. There might be some bloodshed.
The senior management doesn't make the company great, it's the employees who make it great. When someone trains hard and works hard and helps create something great, you don't screw them over by replacing them with someone who doesn't know what they are doing so that you can get a big fat bonus then leave the
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But it's not up to the government to decide.
People's lifestyle is currently depending on the global lifestyle more than before, and that will only increase as time goes by. It's like a very slow-moving tsunami: its movement might not be detectable by a single individual, but it's there, it's coming and there's nothing anyone can do anything about it.
Wages in the high-paid countries will slowly decrease and wages in developing countries will increase (at a faster rate) until, maybe a century or so from now,
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I personally don't care if they allow people to immigrate.
However what I don't like is that we aren't doing an adequate job of enforcing the current laws.
Come on if you're going to live here illegally and drive without insurance you should not be given special haha can't touch me i'm an illegal privilege.
Fine and or jail them like you would an american.
Or if you're not going to punish them like you would an american why not ship them back out of the country?
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The upper middle class doesn't give a shit what happens to the lower middle class, at least not until it happens to them. No big surprise there.
But H1B's are not illegal. They name itself is from the legal code they use to work in this country.
There is an argument to be made that importing skilled labor, which is what the H1B program is about, is preferable to allowing unregulated unskilled labor.
Eventually the "hipsters" will make robots and self-driving cars to replace the "redneck" jobs. Self driving tru
Re:Gotta love the hypocrisy (Score:5, Insightful)
The upper middle class doesn't give a shit what happens to the lower middle class, at least not until it happens to them. No big surprise there.
Sure we do. We just get accused of racism/nativism/protectionism instead of lauded for our noblesse oblige.
I remember this same discussion 20 years ago when I was in grad school for electrical engineering. I was a Pat Buchanan voter arguing with a neocon-ish professor at my lab about how important it is to keep manufacturing jobs in the United States. He said "but we don't want those jobs here, we want tech jobs." Okay, that's great in theory, but the vast, vast majority of our fellow citizens are not as intelligent as we Masters/Ph.D. electrical engineers. I cannot take a 100 IQ auto worker and run him through engineering school and have him come out with a 150 IQ. It doesn't work that way.
I'm opposed to illegal immigration because it drives down wages and decreases the safety of my poor countrymen. I'm opposed to unfair "free" trade agreements because they eliminate the jobs and drive down the wages of my working class countrymen. The purpose of "the economy" and national trade and immigration policy is to serve the interests of the citizens. It is not the purpose of the citizens to serve the interests of "the economy."
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The attempts at social planning that comes from idealogue tends to range from missing key components to downright corrupt. I'm a fairly conservative person, in that I like to stick with what works instead of jumping between radical experiments. But some conservatives like to stick with what they know, even if we all know it's not working. Neocons themselves are playing at a radical experiment, much of what they believe has been untested, untried and in some cases already proven false. But God forbid they ad
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Well, if you trace the origin of the neocon ideology it's ex-Trotskyites who wanted a more aggressive foreign policy (see Bill Kristol's dad).
The problem we have now is "what happens when social experiments fail?"
Neocons want interventionist war in the middle east. Fails. Solution: more war in the middle east.
Progressives want welfare state. Destroys black families, traps them in generational poverty. Solution: more social programs.
It's really, really hard for anybody to say "ya know, if we're in a hole, ma
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That doesn't really exist.
Gotta love the false equivilancies (Score:2)
Is the United States Government importing Mexicans, as a matter of public policy, to take jobs that require a low skill level?
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Some people need the severance package that companies usually offer if you play nice. If only to pay for the family's healthcare while you're out of the job. For many people it's really hard to follow through with principles when there are other factors to consider.