Disney Replaces Longtime IT Staff With H-1B Workers 636
Lucas123 writes: Disney CEO Bob Iger is one of eight co-chairs of the Partnership for a New American Economy, a leading group advocating for an increase in the H-1B visa cap. Last Friday, the partnership was a sponsor of an H-1B briefing at the U.S. Capitol for congressional staffers. The briefing was closed to the press. One of the briefing documents obtained after the meeting stated, "H-1B workers complement — instead of displace — U.S. Workers." Last October, however, Disney laid off at least 135 IT staff (though employees say it was hundreds more), many of them longtime workers. Disney then replaced them with H-1B contractors that company said could better "focus on future innovation and new capabilities." The fired workers believe the primary motivation behind Disney's action was cost-cutting. "Some of these folks were literally flown in the day before to take over the exact same job I was doing," one former employee said. Disney officials promised new job opportunities as a result of the restructuring, but the former staff interviewed by Computerworld said they knew of few co-workers who had landed one of the new jobs. Use of visa workers in a layoff is a public policy issue, particularly for Disney. Ten U.S. senators are currently seeking a federal investigation into displacement of IT workers by H-1B-using contractors. Kim Berry, president of the Programmer's Guild, said Congress should protect American workers by mandating that positions can only be filled by H-1B workers when no qualified American — at any wage — can be found to fill the position."
Technology allows (Score:5, Insightful)
companies to run with minimal staff and still "produce" as much if not more than before. Yet we still run around with the fiction of the "work week" and a "career"... These concepts are obsolete. It's time for the leisure society with resources for all. To deny this is to say we don't have the technology to do so.
Yet we have the technology to outsource everything. But this only benefits the few. If it benefits all, then it's wrong.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
You forgot to mention "basic income" anywhere in your leisure society pamphlet. Please try again.
Re:Technology allows (Score:4, Insightful)
Why not? These mansions were possible thanks to new tools, inventions and discoveries by engineers and scientists that reduced costs and increased production. Why should these scientists and engineers and the rest of the world live by scraping barely while executives reap almost perpetual profits off the work of someone else?
Re: (Score:3)
" Now aren't you glad you voted for Obama?"
I can tell you're a fucking child.
This shit's been going on since the 1920s.
Go back to school and learn history, idiot child.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
companies to run with minimal staff and still "produce" as much if not more than before. Yet we still run around with the fiction of the "work week" and a "career"... These concepts are obsolete. It's time for the leisure society with resources for all. To deny this is to say we don't have the technology to do so.
Yet we have the technology to outsource everything. But this only benefits the few. If it benefits all, then it's wrong.
We may have the technology, but we don't have the resources. Unless something is done about the population growth, whether or not we fix the climate change, we are done for and we'll take 99.9% of the remaining species with us. I wonder what the next civilization on this planet, or the ETs that find it, will think when they start digging up our artefacts.
Re:Technology allows (Score:5, Funny)
Holy shit they made porn out of EVERYTHING!
Re: (Score:3)
Holy shit they made porn out of EVERYTHING!
Mirror Mirror on the Wall, who has the naughtiest porn of all!!
Re:Technology allows (Score:5, Funny)
"With pouty lips and an amazing rack, Blow White is the naughtiest in the sack."
Re: (Score:3)
"With pouty lips and an amazing rack, Blow White is the naughtiest in the sack."
"Oh Mr Disney, can you explain what rule 34 is? Is it a happy ending?"
Re:Technology allows (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually you seem to be missing the obvious: Improving the standard of living of everyone will solve the population growth problem for us. The only countries where the population is still growing like crazy are where the vast majority of citizens are poor and uneducated. Once people get a little bit of education and the ability to enjoy leisure time, they funnily enough stop having kids.
Re:Technology allows (Score:4)
Yes, having large families is a strategy for providing elder care when the parents are uncertain if their progeny will survive to adulthood
Re:Technology allows (Score:5, Funny)
And at the Duggar home.
Re:Technology allows (Score:4, Insightful)
Are you joking? People in "educated" countries don't "stop having kids" because they're educated. They stop having kids because they're "focusing on their careers". If there is no "career" to focus on, what keeps you from having kids?
People in rich countries don't have kids because they're TOO BUSY WORKING.
People in poor countries have lots of kids because THEY'RE UNEMPLOYED (or underemployed) and guess what? the only fun thing they can afford is fucking their wife.
contraception (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Technology allows (Score:5, Interesting)
The fertility rate in Bangladesh has fallen to nearly 2, from a high of around 9 in the 1960s. There are still a lot of people in Bangladesh who don't have careers, they are just farmers or labourers with no real prospects. What has changed is that there was a sustained, long term effort to educate people about contraception and women's rights. Women are now more involved in family planning and both genders have a better understanding of it.
Re:Technology allows (Score:4, Insightful)
Are you joking? People in "educated" countries don't "stop having kids" because they're educated. They stop having kids because they're "focusing on their careers". If there is no "career" to focus on, what keeps you from having kids? People in rich countries don't have kids because they're TOO BUSY WORKING. People in poor countries have lots of kids because THEY'RE UNEMPLOYED (or underemployed) and guess what? the only fun thing they can afford is fucking their wife.
Poor countries tend to have a hjigher birthrate because they have higher infant and child mortality rates due to unsanitary conditions and a lack of access to adequate medical care. Also, employment in poor countries tends to be almost exclusively manual work such as farming, simple manufacturing (textiles, etc), or even scavenging. These types of jobs pay very little, so the more kids you have, the more income your family can bring in and the more likely you are to not starve to death.
Re: (Score:3)
It's mainly access to birth control methods. It's not about being too busy working, farmers historically did manual labor for 10-12 hour days 7 days a week. Yet they all produced 10-12 offspring.
In a lot of places religious cults and superstition (until this day the Catholic Church forbids the use of condoms and birth control) make it so there is a taboo on birth control. Once the population starts being educated and females are able to afford their own birth control methods, the reproduction rate drops. St
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Urban myth. There is no appreciable difference in population growth when there are power outages or even during winter.
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I aam firmly persuaded that the most effective birth-control device of all time is the large-screen television.
"Honey, should we have another kid? No, we won't be able to afford the new 65-inch model."
Re:Technology allows (Score:5, Insightful)
...we don't have the resources.
Absolute nonsense. We just manage them poorly.
Re: (Score:3)
Absent immigration, population growth in the US is negative.
Ditto Europe.
And China.
India isn't quite there yet, but their population growth rate has been steadily declining for most of my life.
In other words, the Third World is the only place where population growth is an issue today. So, yes, we do have the resources....
Translation: (Score:5, Insightful)
"We were running low on our 'being an asshole' quota this month. Now be sure to continue to watch as your wives and kids demand and purchase our products, chumps."
Mind you, that was just frustration talking... because seriously, what is anyone going to do about this?
Re:Translation: (Score:4, Insightful)
Stop believing in imaginary entities such as Disney, thus leaving all their "property" free for taking. For that matter, stop believing in imaginary chains of ownership altogether; if someone's not personally using some resource, it doesn't belong to him, no matter any paper says.
Capitalism is just a secularized religion. It's gods, and the divinely ordained order they live in, are no more immune to final sanction than any others that have guided civilizations in ages past. Invisible Hand either gets its shit together or smashes into the Ragnarock of reality, just like Historical Inevitability did in the USSR. Past accomplishments don't excuse continued lousy performance forever, for men or their gods.
Re:Translation: (Score:5, Interesting)
It really isn't about money.
It's about control. H1B workers can be abused in ways other workers can't, regardless of pay.
Kill the entire H1B program (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Kill the entire H1B program (Score:5, Insightful)
The H1B program is making the problem worse. The corporations have the choice of training an American or hiring a fully trained foreigner.
The problem with that statement is that the foreigner is not going to be fully trained.
The kinds of places that you get H-1B workers (457 visas in Australia) from are the kind of places that have trouble with the word no. So it's an exercise for the listener to determine if "yes" means "yes I do" or "yes I don't".
However once they have the contract, that doesn't matter (to the off-shore provider).
Any Indian who is fully qualified is making plans to get a proper job in the US, Europe, Canada or Australia (well maybe not Australia any more) and not trying to work for an off-shoring consultancy. These people know that they can get the same as an American or European worker and have no desire to be abused by cheapskates.
Re:Kill the entire H1B program (Score:5, Insightful)
Being anti-H-1B is progressive. Progressives generally believe that corporate abuse of workers is bad, and H-1Bs represent the ultimate pathway to worker abuse, by creating a class of people who cannot afford to demand equal pay (because if their employer terminates them, they have to leave the U.S.), who have a harder time moving from company to company (or at least who perceive themselves to have a harder time, which in practice is basically the same thing), and who therefore will end up working for substandard wages by local standards.
And then those H-1B workers end up depending on government subsidies, low-income housing, etc. because the cost of living in high-tech areas is based on typical salaries, not H-1B salaries. In effect, everyone else in the area pays to support these people, solely because their employers were too cheap to pay them properly.
Progressives tend to take a dim view of turning our country into a caste system. Just saying.
Re: (Score:3)
In terms of what can we do - support politicians like Bernie Sanders when they support fighting back against H1B. If you are fortunate enough to choose between working for a company that supports H1B and one that doesn
Re:Translation: (Score:5, Insightful)
Bernie Sanders the man that brought on the housing crisis with his misguided anti redlining legislation ? Pro Tip here, if you can't afford a loan you can't afford a loan.
Yes, the elderly Senator from a small state with no party to back him up literally took control of our entire economy and wrecked it single-handed while Wall Street executives and billionaires stood helplessly by wringing their hands.
Enough! (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Used to work at an immigration firm (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
And, to advertise the job opening in a newspaper in a distant city that has few readers.
Re:Used to work at an immigration firm (Score:4, Interesting)
If I also said he needed to be fluent in Mandarin and Farsi, I've just written an H1-B for my candidate.
In my entire life I've never met anyone who filled that requirement.
Re: (Score:3)
Problem is, it lists all the qualifications as identical. When one of them matters every single day, and the others are optional and probably are only necessary once a year, if at all.
Often what happens is that the employer has one person they want, who is generally qualified for the job and who they want to hire. Then things get arranged to get the H1-B process done, basically after the interview or referral is done. Because you can't write a highly specific job app for one person until you know exactly
Re:Used to work at an immigration firm (Score:5, Interesting)
My Immigration Law professor taught me that's how you write an H1-B job description. That's why I can't buy the "we can't find any American workers" defense, because the law skirting is so common it's now standard curriculum for lawyers.
Re:Used to work at an immigration firm (Score:5, Informative)
The classic video of how employers can commit H1B fraud is at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
What they describe is how to skirt the law, but still hire the less expensive H1B that an employer wants. to quote:
"Our goal, clearly, is not to find a qualified and interested US worker."
Re:Used to work at an immigration firm (Score:4, Insightful)
so, you admit openly to brazenly breaking the law?
please turn yourself in and the rest of your firm.
(I do hate you, you are scum for selling out your own people. and like the cops that turn a blind eye on the thin blue line, you are just as guilty of helping to ruin the middle classs as those cops are of protecting their own even when laws are being broken by them).
its scumbags like you that nod, smile and keep letting the system crush our country.
and yes, I'm one of those who has been out of work WAY too long because I'm a white guy in the bay area and that means I'm 'too expensive'. people like you have helped keep me OUT of work.
I hold you responsible for a part of it. how do you sleep at night? dammit!!
Re:Used to work at an immigration firm (Score:4)
Re: (Score:3)
And what would you have him do my friend? With all those would would have the power to act upon all neatly bought and paid for? It has been an open [wordpress.com] secret [epi.org] for a long time that H1-B not about importing talent but a means to depress the market wages for a long time now. Yet suddenly his coming forward would break the tide? Please, the powers that be have been and will continue to sell the US public down the river just to get another coin in their pocket.
You want change? Don't berate someone working a low lev
Re: (Score:3)
You're in the Bay Area and out of work? Fuck, they're hiring here like it's 1999. If you don't have a job right now, it's your own problem.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
The best way to deal with this nonsense would be to sell the H1-B visas at auction, like taxi cab medallions, with the number adjusted each year so that the average price of each auctioned H1-B visa exceeds 400% of the federal poverty line for a family of 4 with that reserve price set as the starting bid for each H1-B visa. It's hard to say how much an H1-B is worth to a company that says that it needs them, so lets find out in a public auction. Force companies put their money where their mouths are.
Re:Used to work at an immigration firm (Score:4, Informative)
IAAL. Learned in a stint at an immigration law firm, that H1B means you write a job description that only your candidate can fill. For example, if I wanted an airplane engineer who knew jumbo jets, I could get a thousand Americans for the job. If I needed a jumbo jet guy who also could work on Bleriot biplanes, that might be a lot less. If I also said he needed to be fluent in Mandarin and Farsi, I've just written an H1-B for my candidate. The key to success is making sure that only your guy can meet the job description that YOU create. Had a friend who was H1-B, even though he was raised in the states...he never bothered for the green card, took the easy way through school, etc. Had a falling out with his boss, and the H1-B went "poof". This essentially American had to relocate to Europe, and when he didn't self deport, was excluded for five years. H1-B means your employer owns your ass. Sadly, it is now a means to "on shore" a docile labor force.
this is laughably inaccurate, to the point where i question if you're actually a lawyer.
to satisfy the requirements for an H-1B, you have to show that the position you're filling 1) requires at minimum a bachelor's degree in a particular specialty, and 2) your candidate has at least that bachelor's degree, or the equivalent. the process is based on the actual, real position the company is filling, NOT the other way around as you've just described. the burden is on the employer to prove that the bona fide position is an H-1B specialty occupation. read INA 214(i)(3) and 22 CFR 655.700 to 655.855, if you haven't already (hint: if you were even touching H-1Bs as a lawyer, this is MANDATORY READING, especially the LCA provisions!).
what you've described is...not the H-1B process. it's what more unscrupulous companies try to do with the PERM Labor Certification process for a green card, where they inevitably run into, and get smacked down by, the U.S. Department of Labor.
so there's three possibilities here: a) you're not actually a lawyer, because you have NO IDEA what you are talking about; b) you're a lawyer, but your practice was poor to the point of outright malpractice; or c) you're a lawyer, you're lying about what you are doing, and you should give me your name now so i can report you for an ethics violation under the model rules and your state's bar's ethics rules.
Re: (Score:3)
You physically can't touch the US with a 9 million mile bargepole even if you tried. You wouldn't be strong enough to life it and you would need to be out in space to hold the other end. Like way past the moon and part way to Mars out in space.
Even 'merica hates 'merica (Score:3)
That's how it seems to me. God bless America but not Americans.
The Winter of Discontent (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The Winter of Discontent (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
This is not a recession, it's the new status quo. Unless the greed stops. Which it won't.
The Problem is Wage Discrimination (Score:3)
No H1-Bs for contractors (Score:5, Insightful)
The H1-B program should be changed such that only the company that is the end recipient of the work product of the H1-B worker can apply for a visa.
Those companies that provide on-site engineers to other companies should not qualify for H1-B visa sponsorship. In this way many abuses would be stopped.
Re: (Score:2)
The H1-B program should be changed such that only the company that is the end recipient of the work product of the H1-B worker can apply for a visa.
Those companies that provide on-site engineers to other companies should not qualify for H1-B visa sponsorship. In this way many abuses would be stopped.
Indeed, that would help a lot.
Also, in my dream world, the hiring companies that claims they have a need for H1-B workers must apply to some agency (federal or NGO) for their H1-B employees.
That agency would have on file resumes of any US citizen workers that are interested in having their resumes on file as well as the H1-B applicants.
The agency would be mandated to to send US citizens from the pool as applicants for interviews, and not until all qualified or semi-qualified citizens (that wanted the job) h
Re: (Score:3)
It'd help in many ways, but it also makes the H1-Bs situation far more precarious. Modern abuse and quotas means almost all H1-Bs come from those nasty companies, but even before that, many people chose contracting firms to handle their immigration because you are far safer from layoffs and such. I remember when I was an H1-B, a long time ago, going direct, and my then employer had round after round of layoffs. The moment I saw the pattern, I had to look for another job IMMEDIATELY, because getting hit by o
Cost cutting? (Score:5, Insightful)
The fired workers believe the primary motivation behind Disney's action was cost-cutting.
Is there anyone who believes that wasn't the primary motivation? Even the corporate spin: "focus on future innovation" is standard corporate-speak for "spending money elsewhere."
It's not even 'spin,' that is the most straightforward way to interpret Disney's corporate statement.
We need UNIONS in IT (Score:5, Insightful)
With out them we can be replaced by contractors and it's the contract firm that is the one useing the H1B's
Re: (Score:2)
With out them we can be replaced by contractors and it's the contract firm that is the one useing the H1B's
Problem with that is you that you would create the Walmart effect. Go Google Walmart closes dozens of stores? Why? Local unions won in 4 states. All of the sudden they mysteriously had to close due to plumbing issues for 4 months at a time in the same areas. Uh how did that happen?
There are so many IT positions available and not enough jobs that unions are not needed. Ask any recruiter and he or she will tell you how hard it is to find someone that can even hold onto a job for more than1 year as everyone is
How can this be leagle? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, this H-1B shit needs to stop now. Until we're at 99% employment rate for whatever field we're importing workers for, they need to be shipped back to whatever country they came from. This is worse than the illegal imigrant, because these guys are diaplacing current American workers and taking jobs we have people dyeing to fill.
Every single one of those fired need to get together and file a class action against Disney, and this needs to be posted all over the social sites. Disney is no more a family company than Jack the Ripper was an exceptional lover. This needs to backlash on them, and hard.
Any wage? (Score:2)
How can any company have a position which "can only be filled by H-1B workers when no qualified American — at any wage — can be found to fill the position"?
With a high enough salary, any position can be filled, so unless companies are expected to get into bidding wars and offer multi million dollar salaries to compete for one of the american workers that could fill the position, how can such a policy be enforced? My company hires a lot of H1-B's (typically PhD's from various European countries),
Re: (Score:2)
Yes that's odd. It should be at prevailing wage rates
Rules for all modern work environments (Score:2)
1. Don't volunteer (make them pay for every bit of effort)
2. Don't apologise (never admit mistakes in writing)
3. Don't resign (they have to fire you)
4. Always maximise outside options and minimise local effort
no english heard? (Score:5, Insightful)
quoting this wonderful gem:
Several of these workers, in interviews, said they didn't want to appear as xenophobic, but couldn't help but to observe, as one did, that "there were times when I didn't hear English spoken" in the hallways. As the layoff date neared, "I really felt like a foreigner in that building," the worker said.
I'll go ahead and name names: I used to work at cisco. I have said many times that I could walk down the hallway at any random cisco san jose building and for most of the day, not hear a single word spoken in english (in hallways or breakrooms).
is this what we want to see IN AN AMERICAN COMPANY??
I don't dislike indians. I like the culture, love the food, think people from india are fine and decent, overall. but why should it be 'normal' to walk down the hallway of a san jose, california company and not hear english for hours and hours at a time?
I should have had a gopro cam or something on me and taped what a typical day was like, there (when I still worked there; they canned my ass not too long ago). I would then send a copy to the congresscritters who think that there are not ENOUGH foreign workers in the US. maybe they want me to go a full week between hearing english in an american company?
if I go thru an interview and hear 'not a cultural match' one more time, I swear to zeus I'm going to go postal. I'm nearly at the end of my rope, here....
Re: (Score:3)
"Not a match for culture" from a group that has a similar cultural background to yourself is code for "We think you're an asshole."
Somebody can do it cheaper? Fire that costly CEO! (Score:5, Interesting)
H1B visas rules should first apply to CEOs then downward to that organization. No company really needs an expensive CEO, they cost a lot and no large company has ever closed when their CEO died in a car crash, so they are expendable. Get a new CEO at a fraction of the cost and benefits, that's even better shareholder value.
Lesson 1 (Score:4, Insightful)
It's a bit of a clue that either employees are not valued as long term staff or that somewhere there is a total idiot drafting policies insisting on what employees with be called.
"But it's showbusiness!" someone may exclaim - but no that does not fit because camera operators etc are not "cast members" - which means this is some weird shit for appearance sake and other arbitrary shit is bound to happen.
H1B-er here: my opinion on the subject. (Score:5, Interesting)
Dear friends
I'm posting as an anonymous for obvious reasons, but wanted to share some inside view on this subject. To qualify my comments, I lived in South America working for North American and European based companies as a consultant, being paid USD 90.00/hour (so 14.4K/month == 172K/year). I credit my involvement with Opensource as the main reason to be well paid even though not leaving in USA at time.
I always admired USA and still believe this is a good country, even though is no longer the best country to live when compared to some countries in Europe (e.g. Germany, France, Finland).
About 2 years ago I decided to migrate to USA, mostly to provide my child the opportunity to learn how to speak good and proper English (with American accent). My starting pay was 200K/year, so, not within the stereotype of cheap labor and local job stealer that is so common here in Slashdot.
The H1B visa was the only way to move to USA. Calling to kill the program will just push away talented people that might otherwise being working and paying taxes in USA. That being said, I feel disgusted to know that several companies exploit the program to get cheap labor and I believe this must be stopped.
One common misconception is to believe that you can always find local people to do the job. Well, boys... that might be true for trivial jobs (like IT support), but is exactly the opposite for elite jobs (e.g. linux kernel, WebKit/Blink, Gstreamer, etc).
For those elite jobs, most of the people is already taken (e.g. Apple, Google). And the remaining people is scattered around the world, being just a few who are willing to move to USA.
Another common misconception is to think you can 'just train' the locals to do it. Nopes... it takes several years to make an elite programmer that is a maintainer in one of those aforementioned Opensource projects.
Maybe you are considering that instead of going through the H1B, I should have applied for a GreenCard (GC)? Well, I have a close friend, PhD and one of the top 20 experts in his domain area that was living in Australia and applied for a GC... that was 3 years ago and only now he will be able to move to USA.
To close my message, I would like to tell that it may be the minority, but there are indeed some really good engineers/programmers that depend on the H1B program to move to USA and later apply for a GC if planning to stay longer, which, to be quite honest, I'm a bit unsure if it is worthwhile considering that:
a) Your wife won't be able to work;
b) You pay taxes and social security in a European level and get South American level services in return;
c) Life in USA is quite expensive;
d) This country is becoming less and less democratic by the day.
Cheers
AnonymousCoward
Re:H1B-er here: my opinion on the subject. (Score:5, Interesting)
sorry, but I have to call BS on the 'its mostly about the elite programmers'. it SHOULD be about the specialty fields or where exceptional experience is needed and some researcher from a foreign country is the only expert who can do this job, that's fine.
what I have seen (been living in the bay area 25 years; born in the US and lived here all my life; and, yes, I have travelled outside the US) is that the jobs that are being filled by h1b's (at cisco, for example, where I -used- to work) are ordinary common jobs. I have met some very sharp folks who where h1b but also lots of very inexperienced, shabby programmers who created more work as clean-up after them than they added during their stay.
I mostly apply for 'regular old' programming jobs, these days. I consider myself average or a bit above, but certainly not genius level. I'm capable and I can usually get the job done or at least escalate if I'm stuck. but even for the common jobs, I'm being pushed aside in preference for the h1b. I see it at interviews. I see it when I am working, the ability level and experience level of those around me. we can all see it, its not hard. and we all know that its not the high-end programmer that we mostly import. its the common guy, and I have to tell you, lots of us 'common guys' are out of work and companies simply won't hire us because we are not as abusable as foreigners. plain and simple, cut and dried for you.
I understand you have needs and your family is important to you. but why should my country spend more time and energy supporting YOU instead of ME? I don't expect YOUR country to support me or take care of me. I don't expect country A or B or C to support me. I DO expect my own damned country to prefer its own people be working here, getting the rewards of their life-long investment in the place and helping to make the next generation of americans even better off than their parents.
that brings up another sore point. am I better off than my parents generation? I'm mid 50's and I still don't own my own house. I make (or made, when I was still working) a nice figure in the $100-$200k range. but in the bay area, its really hard to afford to buy a house if you didn't have help, and with employers throwing you under the bus every other year, no bank wants to loan money to a 'contractor' who has 'uncertain employment'. therefore, I'm a renter and may never have the chance to buy my own home. my parents grew up in the WW2 era and they made a fraction (translated) of what I make/made. but they owned their own home, could afford to have kids and treat them well, they didn't worry about 'will I be working again next year' like I do, pretty much all the time, now. they had a retirement and pension and overall they had many things I will never have.
I'm worse off than my parents' generation, overall. and its not looking like its going to improve any time soon.
so WHY should I - and people like me - just hand over my country to visitors? again, would your home country willingly accept me? my country is accepting you. where do *I* go?
you have to understand the feelings of those who invested their whole lives here, only to be told 'sorry, social contract is now off.'
Re:H1B-er here: my opinion on the subject. (Score:5, Informative)
There are E1 and E2 immigrant visas for your case. I.e.:
E1 1: Persons with extraordinary ability in the sciences, arts, education, business, or athletics. Applicants in this category must have extensive documentation showing sustained national or international acclaim and recognition in their fields of expertise.
E1 2: Outstanding professors and researchers with at least three years experience in teaching or research, who are recognized internationally.
E2 1: Professionals holding an advanced degree (beyond a baccalaureate degree), or a baccalaureate degree and at least five years progressive experience in the profession.
E2 2: Persons with exceptional ability in the sciences, arts, or business. Exceptional ability means having a degree of expertise significantly above that ordinarily encountered in the sciences, arts, or business.
If you or your employer can't meet E1/E2 requirements, sorry, maybe there is nothing so special about your skills.
H1B or L temporary worker visas are fraud and abuse most of the time, that can't be controlled and should end completely. They destroy any incentive for US persons to pursue career in IT or in STEM in general.
Re: (Score:3)
What is wrong if they can find someone who can do it for cheaper?
Doesn't a CEO have a right to run his business the way he sees fit. If you can't compete with these low end folks with language barriers that says more about you than it does about cost cutting.
The first part of your comment is worth expanding on a little:
You are correct, but define "cheaper". Is the extra time required to complete a project due to language barrier cheaper? Is the $150/hr per head you're paying to hire H1-B contractors making $20/hr "cheaper"? Is the extra liability insurance... well, you get the idea.
It only seems cheaper at first... until the invoices roll in, deadlines slip, and things start getting ugly once the contract agency does... because what are you going to do about it
Re:What's the problem (Score:5, Interesting)
Don't forget your NDA, you can't say anything about what this company does.
Thank you very much, and hit the road bud.
Re:What's the problem (Score:5, Funny)
Because it is illegal to replace employees with H-1B contractors,
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But refusing to backfill their positions and bringing in contractors is A-OK, plus it eliminates long term retirement benefit costs
All the cool executives are doing it
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Japanese version would cost you twice as much these days, keep moving west
Re:Lesson for workers : Keep skills sharp (Score:5, Insightful)
The issue really isn't the fact that the H1Bs are taking over 'native' STEM positions, it is that Disney et. al. is flat out lying about it.
Remember, the H1B program is an immigration loophole set up by the government for certain purposes (allowing non citizens to work in the US when there are no qualified citizens). It was not designed to be a welfare program for big companies. Even for 'easily replaced' employees.
Re:Lesson for workers : Keep skills sharp (Score:5, Informative)
It was not designed to be a welfare program for big companies.
You haven't been paying attention.
Re:Lesson for workers : Keep skills sharp (Score:5, Insightful)
sure, blame the employees for this.
to even suggest that the employees had ANY part in this other than having western style expenses like american healthcare, rent, food, gas - you know, luxuries - is dishonest or outright fraudulent.
shill much for The Man?
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A) What were you doing you could be replaced that easily?!
Everyone is expendable, from the CEO to the janitor. That's not evil that's just running a good business. Anyone who tries to make himself indispensable is the first person you try to replace, it's not a good behavior and it's not good for anyone.
B) Companies can drop you any time, out of nowhere. Keep some savings, and keep skills up so that if you need another job, you can find one... it's really easy at larger companies to drift into something
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If the allegations are true, Disney (or their outsourcing firm) broke the law. It doesn't really matter how screwed up the law is if it's being ignored anyway.
Re:Lesson for workers : Keep skills sharp (Score:5, Informative)
Everyone is expendable, from the CEO to the janitor.
I suggest that you leave your parent's basement and visit the real world some time. in the real world everyone is expendable except for the CEO and their cronies.
Look at all the big US companies after the 2008 crash. No CEOs, C-anything-O or boards of director were out and out fired. A very few CEOs (for example the head of Bank of America) were "retired", but given their fat golden parachutes they still ended up outrageously wealthy. There is no negative penalty, even for complete failure, for anyone at the top.
Corporations only have one goal: making the upper management as rich as possible. They will throw anyone under the bus to achieve that end: employees, stockholders, customers. If it's ever a choice between stockholders and management, stockholders get screwed.
For example: Deep Misalignment Between Corporate Economic Performance, Shareholder Return and Executive Compensation [yahoo.com]
What universe are you from? How can you make a statement that is so clearly false? Did someone pay to say that, or are you a free lance idiot?
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What the hell are you doing that you can't? News flash for you: we replace our President every 4 to 8 years and the sun still rises the next day. If you can't be replaced tomorrow, then someone done fucked up.
Um... (Score:3)
And after 30 years of declining wages who the hell ca
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Re: Lesson for workers : Keep skills sharp (Score:3)
So capitalism involves cheating and gaming the H1b system to the point of criminality so corporate profits can be maximized at the expense of everything and everyone else? Sign me up for a different system.
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Hey wait a minute, if this is capitalism, where by Corporations can source labour from anywhere is the world
Why does this same capitalism prevent me from sourcing my Music, Movies, TV programs, Books, etc etc etc etc from anywhere is the world too ?
Well, after all, if "Nobody owes you a job", why should you "owe them your business"?
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This. It's not about whether you're replaceable. It's about whether some PHB who did Strategic Management at A&M Galveston thinks you are.
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at any wage = min wage so we can't find a US worker at min wage willing to work a min of 40 hours a week with NO OT pay for hours that likely are needed on top of that.
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the last 2 contract jobs I had, the employer insisted that I bring 'my' work laptop home with me each nite. when I explained that I'm not paid beyond 8 hours a day (hey, it was YOU, mr employer, who forced contract on me; I would have gone f/t if offered the chance but nooooo! you didn't want that, did you?) - they simply said that everyone takes their laptop home. its expected.
they want it both ways. no benes for you, ability to can your ass on a moment's notice and yet they expect you to work for them
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They can't enforce it until Congress mandates it.
I like Ken... (Score:2)
You know.....I really like what Ken has to say. I wish our congress critters would listen to him. After all, they are supposed to be there to help US citizens' needs above all others. *sigh*
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The only US citizens that congress helps are the ones whose last names are "Inc."
Re:I like Ken... (Score:5, Insightful)
you bring up a good point.
what IS the role of a government? isn't it to promote the well-being or safety of its people?
are h1b's citizens where they get the same level of protection as those who were born here or got citizenship the long/slow/hard way?
why do we owe anyone else a job? its often asked 'why do US companies owe US workers jobs?' but I turn it around, why should US companies NOT support their own people, FIRST ??
find me another country that offers anything close to this h1b bullshit to foreigners coming to their shores to work. name one country - just one - that thinks its own citizens should be 2nd to 'guest workers'. ONLY the US fits that description.
we start wars with the presumption of keeping americans safe. we collect taxes to pay for infrastructure to benefit those who live here. there are many examples of what countries do for their own people. that's kind of the whole point of 'membership'; by being an american, I should have priority in employment over those who have paid NO dues here and have no vested interest - whatsoever - in the long-term success and stability of our country.
but my country sold me out. I can go months (or much longer) without getting a job offer and I have decades of useful IT experience. is that right? does that sound like my country is taking care of me? sure doesn't sound like that to me, from where I sit.
republicans - democrats - none of them lift a finger to help the struggling middle class. as far as I'm concerned, we have nothing but traitors in congress, these days.
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Australia has decided to copy the stupid idea.
That doesn't make it any less stupid though, it just means making influential people happy is seen by those in power as more important than local jobs. For example, we've got a large number of skilled unemployed meat workers that were replaced by unskilled workers from China almost overnight (there was a bait and switch where the meatwo
Re:I like Ken... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:This move is rational for a public company (Score:4, Insightful)
Posting AC because, you know... This is going to be unpopular, but It's the trajectory that I see in Tech management in large enterprises.
This isn't shocking. I built my career during the IT and dot-com boom, moved into management, and then into executive positions. I fear this path is no longer available.
Why? Young companies need competent tech workers who can perform, and they need them fast. Once the company scales and competition eats into margins and profitability, they cut cost, that means firing expensive domestic workers and using overseas/contract headcount. Disney is doing the mechanically rational thing for a mature public company.
"Fucking evil management", you say? Well, grow up kiddies. This is what the board, shareholders, and investors demand - increased YoY profitability, which can be achieved, partly, by cutting costs.
This will continue. It will get worse. It's a race to the bottom, so get used to it. The barriers to becoming an IT worker have vanished, and people can work globally. You don't like it? Unionize or advocate trade barriers (which IT will not do), but business will seek the lowest cost option to achieve their business objectives.
Oh, and just wait until AI/automation scales up... My prediction: IT as a profession won't be around in 5 years.
Load of gabage,
A decade ago I believe the scary posts like yours and wife demanded I quit programming as Indians would have these jobs by now. Worse mistake EVER! I would have been rich if I did not major in business. Going back into IT now but man 10 years of experience gone and starting over the past few years sucked.
It is 2015 and we were told by 2010 no IT would exist. Well much of it is coming back as demand is rising due to failed outsourcing attemps and management realizing with IE 6 and XP last year they fucked up by being shoe strung budgets that hampered their basic infrastructures for too long. Programmers today are pulling in $65,000 a year WITH 0 EXPERIENCE!
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$65k? you can't even live in the bay area on that unless you live 'dorm style' with 2 people per bedroom and 3 or more BR's per house or apartment.
but he's right that IT is a race to the bottom. we need unions. we won't get them because young kids think they are invinceable and its ONLY young kids who are being hired. you think this is a coincidence? young kids also tend not to use insurance and their insurance costs are much lower, hence the cost to the company is much lower.
finally, companies are usi
Re:This move is rational for a public company (Score:5, Interesting)
Yep, that, and Disney is... special. I left Disney IT just before last October; it had already become a pretty stressful place to work. Morale was already super-low, because they had just launched the new version of their website that they'd been working on for 5 years and everyone was burned out from working *crunch* shifts through nights and weekends trying to finish developing the thing and then helping it limp along during its initial years. Coming out of development mode and going into sustainment mode, and then they burned through lots of operations budget dealing with all of the tech debt from the rush job, and then made up for it by laying off a bunch of good managers (like mine) and trying to put the squeeze on the remaining staff.
Since Disney is one of the top brands in the US, they actually take pride in how little they can pay their employees (er, "cast members") below market rates, in exchange for being associated with The Mouse. Burnout and turnover was pretty high, few people lasted more than three years (incidentally the amount of time until their pension vests). I got tired of the squeeze and took a job elsewhere for much higher pay. Also managed to snag a guy interviewing for my old job at Disney because his recruiter told him to ask me about his concerns over work/life balance.
To be fair, I did get a lot of experience working at Disney... since they don't believe in "reduce variation" they had one of almost everything in production somewhere since old sites never died but were always maintained for use by some niche customer (er, "guest" / "partner"). I'm sure my Disney friends and co-workers will turn out all right or better than they were at that puppy mill, I actually kinda feel more concerned for the H1Bs that will be tending to their fires and burning through their lives at both ends.
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In a way, I hope you're right. Because the companies that buck the trend will be around in 10 years, and every other one will be on its way to bankruptcy. I take great satisfaction in seeing heartless, stupid, mindless dipshits fail and take large companies with them.
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* The factory worker. Once thought as a safe job, now being replaced by robots.
* The warehouse worker. Again, once thought as a safe job, now being replaced by robots. We had an article about this on this very site. http://hardware.slashdot.org/s... [slashdot.org]
* Retail employee working the cash register, replaced by self-scan registers.
* Fast food worker, replaced by self-order kiosks and
I agree. (Score:5, Informative)
I agree.
If you follow the second order links down to what Disney actually did, they outsourced their IT to a contracting agency.
When they did this, they laid off 125 full time employees in the process, and between three of the contracting agencies providing the services to replace them, there were apparent;y 65 H1-B applications in the last 3 years. Presumably, not all 65 went to Disney, because the contracting agencies contract services out to companies other than Disney. In fact, a vast number of dark data center porn and shopping sites are located in that area of the country, down by Los Angeles, where the majority of that kind of content is produced.
What this story is actually about, is complaining that the full time workers were replaced with contractors, some of whom were probably in the U.S. working for the contracting agencies on either H1 or L1 visas.
The summary is a gross misrepresentation of the facts here, and going with a contracting agency is a valid mechanism for ensuring "Just In Time" capability, without over-employing in order to handle upsurges in workloads. It's how janitorial and security services are handled (when you have a large company event, you have the contracted agencies put on more security people for the event itself, and added janitorial people post-event to clean up afterward.
That said, the usual route a decent company will follow when out-sourcing to a local agency, as opposed to off-shoring the work entirely, is to require that the contracting agency hire a certain percentage of the workers that are being laid off to replace them with contractors. This has the effect of ensuring continuity of service, providing a built-in mentoring capability to the contracting agency for the processes and procedures being contracted out, and in general providing continuity of employment for at least some of their existing staff.
It falls under the category of "Not Being Dickish About Switching Over To Contractors".
But the idea that they should not be switching over to contractors at all, for something like IT services, which are generally modular, replicable, and have uniformly applicable skill sets, if what you are spending your time doing is pulling wires, spinning up VMs, installing system software on replacement desktop/laptop machines, and so on, is patently absurd. These are "cog jobs", where any sufficiently skilled cog can replace any other sufficiently skilled cog in the machine, and you probably won't lose a marching step over the replacement.
That, and surge scalability, make them rather ideal for out-sourcing.
Frankly, I'm surprised companies like RackSpace are renting out their IT people, rather than forcing everyone to live on RackSpace racks; it's a pretty ideal scenario for them, in terms of profit per employee, and gives them buffer for their own internal surge scalability issues. They get borrowable capacity, and other people pay to maintain that capacity at a certain level.
Add the fact that a lot of deployment is on OpenStack with standard deployment tools, no matter if you're working on your cloud or working on someone else's cloud: all the tools are the same, so all the skills are pretty much transferrable.
This is kind of what happens when you sufficiently commoditize an industry through standardization.
Re:I agree. (Score:5, Insightful)
The real problem here is that IT is regarded as something like a janitorial service, rather than an integral business function. That's a recipe for a slow burn into the ground. There is plenty of cog work to be done, sure. But if you don't use IT to actually change how you do business, you're not doing IT.
I'm not surprised then that Disney is only making money by buying IP, and riding old IP. They're organizationally prohibited of producing something new.