One Company's Week-Long Interview Process 362
jfruh writes "What's the longest tech interview you've had to sit through — two hours? Eight? Ruby on Rails devs who want to work for Hashrocket need to travel to Florida and do pair-programming on real projects for a week before they can be hired. The upside is that you'll be put up in a beachfront condo for the week with your significant other; the downside is that you'll be doing real work for a week for little or no pay and no guarantee of a job slot."
The real downside. (Score:5, Funny)
Is that you're programming in Ruby on Rails...
Re:The real downside. (Score:5, Insightful)
"programming"
Re:The real downside. (Score:5, Funny)
If you do pair-programming with you best bud it is brogramming.
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Take a break, and you're nogramming.
Re:The real downside. (Score:5, Interesting)
To be honest I know a lot of good developers that primarily use scripting languages (Ruby, PHP, Python, etc) for their day jobs. They know they aren't the best languages ever developed, but they have fun writing stuff in them and get paid a good amount, because of their skill level. They could tell you exactly how the language works internally as well if you ask them. Not all of the people who write in scripting languages are bad.
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Trollolol. No one enjoys writing in PHP. You gave yourself away too easily, Rubyist.
Re:The real downside. (Score:5, Insightful)
Completely untrue. Countless people have enjoyed, and do enjoy programming in PHP. I myself am one.
Yes, I recognize the language's many obvious (and many not-so-obvious) failings, but that doesn't mean you can't have fun using it. There are plenty of ways to write good PHP code (Zend standards/framework, for instance).
PHP's biggest problem aren't its (numerous) issues as a language. PHP's biggest problem are the 90%+ of the "PHP Programmers" who are abhorrently bad at programming in general, and think they're programmers simply because they wrote a little bit of HTML with embedded PHP, or installed Wordpress *shudder*.
Granted, I prefer Python to PHP any day of the week for both fun and function.... Never written any Ruby.
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Yes, I recognize the language's many obvious (and many not-so-obvious) failings...
You're underselling the problems with PHP. Seriously. PHP is a hideous, three-headed stepchild of a programming language and I know nothing about it that's fun, functional, or useful. Its not Fun, or Funny. http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ [veekun.com].
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PHP is ugly like the brittish imperial system of measurement. It works and I'm used to it, but I know enought to know how much better it could be.
Real programmers use interpretive languages too. (Score:5, Insightful)
I do a lot of work in Ruby, too. I notice that lots of Ruby gems contain C code. Someone competent is writing that.
Language fascists aren't generally as good at programming as they think. They'd understand where interpretive languages make sense, if they were.
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There will now be a slight pause while we all google "cache line"...
Significant other (Score:5, Funny)
Where do I send my significant other's resume? I can use a vacation.
Re:Significant other (Score:5, Funny)
Can I just send my significant other? I need a vacation.
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The idea here is that you go with your significant other, and while s/he's toiling away at this stupid company and working for free all day, you're sitting in the nice beachfront condo they put you up in, relaxing and enjoying the beach, and maybe even getting some nice meals and drinks on the company's dime. Heck, while he's busy programming (assuming it's a he), you can find a short-term boyfriend and have him over at the condo during the day....
Re:Significant other (Score:5, Funny)
Just apply and hope for an interview. You don't need to actually do any work. At the end of the week just say "I was goofing off the whole time like it was a real job", then go home well rested.
This is too much (Score:5, Insightful)
The longest for me is 5 hours but this is ridiculous. The only people that would be able to apply are people who are unemployed. As someone who has interviewed people for programming jobs, it really doesn't take more than 2 hours to figure out if someone is a good fit.
Re:This is too much (Score:5, Insightful)
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Google is an all day interview.
Re:This is too much (Score:5, Interesting)
The only people that would be able to apply are people who are unemployed.
"I can't believe I wasted 10% of my annual vacation days on this stinking interview" Been there done that.
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50 days paid annual leave? Florida is not France...
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Re:This is too much (Score:4, Interesting)
If you got 2 weeks... a single day off for an interview would be 10%.
Exactly. WRT to AC dropping "five whole hours" on an interview... I interviewed at a rather dilbertian F50 megacorp and it was about 8 hours aka 10% of my annual vacation. Ugh. Never should have wasted my time. They did take me out to lunch at a family dining establishment (Applebees level), which was nice of them.
Then again I usually take the whole day off for an interview even when its only about 5 minutes. I remember getting bait and switched about 20 years ago at a Major Cellphone Network Provider where I applied to be a RF cellsite engineer or whatever the exact terminology and somehow got shuffled around into call center monkey at about 1/4 my pay at the time. Basically HR worded the want ad to make me think they wanted someone to design, maybe project manage cell tower site installation/upgrades, which was more or less beneath my ability at the time, but what they actually wanted was a call center monkey to stick pins into a cork board map when angry customers were transferred to my extension complaining of dropped calls and then theoretically I'd "do something" with areas having lots of pins on the map, well, actually I'd just take calls but maybe I could work my way up to hand generating TPS reports or whatever. It was a call center job but the "engineering" dept job title meant unpaid overtime for them, what a great deal! Two hours of drive time round trip for 5 minutes of WTF, see ya.
Another WTF am I here for, was I had just completed a COBOL class at school (ahh, the 90s) and I had some experience setting up SDLC mainframe links over frame relay, I knew how to pull and terminate fiber, I had more or less worked as a network admin at a financial mainframe operation, etc. So there's an ad in the paper for what looks kinda like a sysprog or maybe devprog or maybe like an onsite local IBM CE except employed by the client. I get there and it turns out they have outsourced the computer operator positions but they need a local monkey to take care of physical paper handling at the line printers and would I like to work there for about $7/hr? WTF are you kidding me? bye bye.
I've learned over the years that before you go onsite if the nice HR lady can't explain the job duties that means there is no point in showing up for the interview.
"Worlds most F'd up interviews" would make an entertaining /. discussion.
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The only people that would be able to apply are people who are unemployed.
Uh, good?
Re:This is too much (Score:4, Insightful)
Not if you want the best candidates it is not. Often those types already have jobs.
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If you want what is best for society as a whole, everyone needs a job. Unemployed people should get priority in hiring unless you can demonstrate that you cannot find qualified people who are between jobs.
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I agree with the former, I disagree with the latter.
By hiring an employed person, that frees up another position the unemployed person can fill.
Most likely one that is valuable.
I see no reason to give priority to possibly worse candidates.
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There is a reason that your chance of getting a job decreases as your length of unemployment increases.
Do you have data to suggest that it is actually due to the underqualifications of the applicant, instead of non-competence related issues such as lack of networking opportunities, depression, or simple bias against the unemployed on the part of HR?
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Re:This is too much (Score:4, Interesting)
I wish I knew anybody who had any success at using open source projects while unemployed to "count as being employed"
It doesn't, but it might help you lose a little "I sat on my lazy bum ass all day" stigma. Showing that you actually like to code and don't do it just because you get a pay check would be a huge plus in my book.
Perhaps not such a bad idea (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been through (and passed) a 2-day assessment centre before, when applying for my first "proper" job. That included exercises designed to simulate the work I'd be doing on appointment - but there's always going to be a degree of artificiality around exercises like that.
It's hugely important to get recruitment right, as a wrong call can have consequences that last months or years. We've all seen cases of the alleged saviour of the universe who gets recruited, only to turn out to be a mediocre employee who trundles along just above the point at which it's worth getting rid of him. Set against that, a week long scrutiny process like this has some merits.
The obvious downside is that by definition, it's pretty much limiting the pool of applicants to those not already in employment. People already working full time will likely struggle to vanish for a full week, particularly if they have family committments that place demands on their vacation time.
Probably illegal. (Score:5, Insightful)
Violation of labor laws. This is illegal. They have people doing full time work for less than minimum wage. The fact that they call it an "interview" is hardly a reasonable distinction. I hope the idiots involved suck a nice 6 or 7 digit fine for this.
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They probably just call it an "internship."
Captcha: Pretend.
Re:Probably illegal. (Score:4, Informative)
This happens in restaurants every day. Cooks work a few shifts for free prior to being hired. The French term is stagiare. The difference is cooks work for free to get minimum wage jobs.
Re:Probably illegal. (Score:5, Interesting)
1 week beachfront condo rental is compensation. As long as that is over minimum wage (~$300/wk at $7.35/hr), then it's probably legal.
maybe how they get away with it (Score:2)
Especially if its 1080 comped (food cable ect) so you don't have any expenses during that week. Still its slimy for them to do it this way.
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Then you should probably not agree to an interview with this company. Because, you know, that's your right to do so. But remember, not everybody has the exact same interests and standards of value as you do.
Other people, for whom a week on the beach with SO (and perhaps a kid or two) in a city they really want to move to, or trying out for a company they really want to work at... might find it a far more compelling offer, and be thrilled to accept.
Obviously, if you're employed, it's difficult to take a we
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Do they get script to spend at the company store too?
If this is how they treat you during the interview expect to be treated even worse once you get hired.
I've done simular... (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:I've done simular... (Score:5, Funny)
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I read that as, Always keep several projects in a state of incompetence; I sure got that nailed down ;)
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Well obviously you would build a back door into the project that you can use to shut it down remotely if they don't hire you, right?
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Putting someone up and buying them food doesn't also pay their mortgage, etc, so it sounds like a pretty crappy deal to me. I could totally see the desire to watch someone work and see how they do, but that's what contractors are for. You hire them, work them for a week or two, and if you don't like them, you make a phone call and they magically disappear. If you do like them, then you eventually hire them.
This just sounds shady to me.
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Not that bad. (Score:3, Insightful)
If you think about it. If you are currently at a job, you can get vacation pay, for that week, you get to see if the company is really a good fir for you. Also the company sees if you are a good fit for it.
Now if the company just doesn't hire people. Then there is a problem. Because they just found a way to get free labor. However I don't see that the case because it is really hard to do a lot of real work the first week.
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Yeah just what I want to use my vacation pay for. Screw that.
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I can imagine a case where I would do this if the work was obviously contrived as a test. I'd have to be pretty desperate (Just to consider working on Ruby would require me to be very desperate, as long is it didn't involve mySQL it would still be better then starving.)
If they wanted me to do real coding on their real projects I would just take the weeks free rent/airfare/zero cost vacation and not do a lick of work. I wouldn't consider the interview done until the hiring manager threw a tantrum.
Re:Not that bad. (Score:4, Insightful)
So I go into my boss' office and say "So I need a week off next week to go down to Florida and do the world's most insane interview. Do you mind?" I mean, it's not like this is the sort of thing you can plan for months in advance and come up with a reasonable reason that you need the week off. If I ask my boss for a week off next month without any details, he might go for it without questions, but next week? He'll want to know who died. This is ignoring the fact that I like to use my vacation time for... ya know... vacation?
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They've Been Doing This For Years (Score:5, Interesting)
The ironic thing -- or funny, I suppose, depending on your point of view -- is that Hashrocket did not hire him. He's one of the best programmers I know (I know a lot), and he was also quite familiar with their development process. He taught it in college.
I think it's a pretty good bet that Hashrocket made a mistake in his case. He went on to work for other prestigious companies.
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Re:They've Been Doing This For Years (Score:4, Insightful)
Quite possible. xaoslaad didn't say that your friend had a fucked-up personality, just that it might not be a fit. If the company is full of assholes, and he's not an asshole, then he wouldn't be a good fit. There's a lot of companies like that. As the old saying goes, "birds of a feather flock together", and you frequently see this dynamic in workplaces. You go to one company and everyone's really friendly and great, and you go to another company and everyone has serious personality problems or is an asshole. The assholes don't stick around company #1 because they get fired, not hired in the first place, or don't like that their behavior isn't well-tolerated when they get called out on it. The decent people don't stick around company #2 because they don't like being around assholes and look for a new job ASAP, or they don't get hired because "they're not a team player".
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I think Hashrocket invited him so he could solve a particularly nasty problem for them for free.
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How do you know that they wanted to hire him in the first place? They probably just wanted some free workforce.
Sounds like a good idea (Score:2)
This does seem to be one of he best ways to vet potential employees out there. The best way to see whether someone is a good fit for your company is to see what they can do; see how they can work, rather than ask them questions that don't really have anything to do with what the company is doing.
I'm guessing that most companies aren't going to want to spend the time and money to vet employees this thoroughly, though. But for a small company, it can be well worth it.
Re:Sounds like a good idea (Score:5, Interesting)
Unless the company pays way above market rates, why would I go through this? I can understand if you're fresh out of college trying to prove yourself, but otherwise, I would skip it.
It's not like it's a prestigious company.
Of COUSE it's good for the company (Score:2)
Of COURSE this process is good for the company. They get an entire week of work for the cost of a beachfront condo they probably usually let executives use for free.
For the applicant, it's a really lousy deal, especially if they are not currently unemployed.
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37signals does something similar, just without the beachfront condo part. However, I believe they pay you as a contractor while they audition you.
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6 Grueling Hours. (Score:4, Informative)
It wasn't enough that the position I was interviewing for was for someone who got promoted out of it. And I knew him (but not that I was interviewing for his job, until I got there) we of course hit it off, but his boss was the one that needed convincing. I get showed around, described the job, I take some tests, where I ace them, save for the questions that were either asked poorly or the answers wrong (2 out of 20) and we all agreed I was an exact match, and even slightly over-qualified. We got this feeling early on, but they continued to grill me through the full battery of people and tests. After 6 hours (We get a1/2hr for lunch)
We finish up, call the recruiter it looks good... They elect not to make an offer because I would be too good for the job. never mind the pay was better, the location was better, the industry was better and it was a topic I was very interested in.
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>> They elect not to make an offer because I would be too good for the job.
Amazing that they could say that with a straight face. More amazing is that you actually believed them.
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Care to explain your comment more?
Some places don't like to hire overqualified people as they are afraid of them leaving or being demanding.
It is possible that someone along the way didn't like him as much as they say they did.
What other possibilities are you thinking of?
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This point is true and that's the reason they give, but it's more bogus H.R. reasoning and it turns out to be an excuse.
Anyone will move on if they are given a better opportunity, not just the overqualified.
Don't do it (Score:4, Insightful)
By a scruffy guy with a Cane?? (Score:2)
House MD season 4 was mostly an extended "interview" with a crowd of medical folks.
I would have thought that this was FICTIONAL. (and at least DR House was decent enough to PAY them (until they got hit with ROW D YOUR FIRED!)).
I wish we did this. (Score:3)
ehrmagerd!!! sperc werk! (Score:2)
Our company does this for 6 months... (Score:5, Informative)
Agile methodology... (Score:5, Funny)
Paid contract? (Score:5, Interesting)
I had an interview for an out of city employer. It resulted in me being given a PAID two week contract to see if I'm worth hiring. I forget what it was I made, but I was paid $2000.
that $2000 was part of my moving expenses if I was hired, and if I was not, I still got $2000, because I signed a contract stating if I finished the work on time, I get $2000.
This seemed like a good way to do things and benefits both the company and myself. I get money, company gets proof I can not only code, but be professional (meetings on time, meeting deadlines, etc).
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I did this with a local startup. I gave them a discounted rate hourly on a small (40-60) hour project they needed done in the hope that they might offer me full time employment when they could. Ultimately they did because they saw that my work was good and I was responsive to their needs and creative enough to suggest solutions to design problems. It worked out pretty well for me.
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They probably didn't give him a lot to do.
I am with the "don't work for free" crowd (Score:2)
I think we've found the next IT business model... (Score:2)
...perpetual "working" interviews.
Never hire anyone, of course, so you never pay for salaries, FICA, health care, vacation, paycheck distribution...
Next step: require that the interviewee simply telecommute in with their own computer. Now you don't even have to worry about covering transportation costs, desk space, office supplies...
Genius, I tell ya. Evil genius, of course. But still.
Filter for top talent? (Score:2)
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Bah (Score:4)
A week is nothing. When I went for the Marines, it turned out that the interview process was 3 months!!
slight problem (Score:5, Insightful)
So if you're a Hashrocket customer (Score:3)
Remember that most of your stuff was cobbled together in a week by code monkeys of unknown skills and quality then passed on to the next code monkeys who never saw any of that stuff before.
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It's still just a language. It's not like the most common projects are in more enjoyable languages.
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Re:Ugh, Ruby (Score:5, Funny)
Bravo! You have made the beginning of my day!
The title of my next newsletter:
Ruby: A language designed by programmers for non-programmers
Then followed by these illustrious titles:
Ruby: Non-programming for Programmers
Ruby: Unprogramming what you've learned about Programming
Ruby: Lobotomy required
Ruby: Brainfuck for the masses
Re:We don't have an HR department (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:We don't have an HR department (Score:5, Interesting)
This is obviously of benefit to the employer, but also to the prospective employee.
Not really, if you're a weak candidate you might get "lucky", if you're a strong candidate your true value will probably show faster by simply going to more interviews - in fact some of them may overvalue you as well. It's not nearly as bad for you to be passed up for a job that you "should have" gotten as an employer stuck with a lemon hire. The only reason I'd go with this is because I was really desperate that there was this job or no job or that I really, really wanted to work for this company. Since the latter is not the case, I suspect it's a lot of the former and those are not the good candidates. And that doesn't include the possibility of a scam, that they're only using you for free labor with no intent to hire.
Re:We don't have an HR department (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't see how this unpaid week-long stint is of any benefit at all to the employee. Sure, it'll help the employer avoid hiring poor performers or people who don't fit into the organization, but what does the employee get out of it? The only benefit for the employee I see is if the candidate is going to have to make a long-distance move to take the job; moving (esp. from out-of-state) incurs significant costs, which can take a while to earn back in paychecks. However, this is really something the employee should consider themselves; it's frequently a good idea to just rent a room or efficiency short-term while you're in your "probationary period" with such a new job, so if it doesn't work out (which could be for all kinds of reasons, not just poor performance on your part; maybe the coworkers are assholes or you find the city to be a cesspool and didn't realize until you had to live there for a while), you can quit the job and go back home without losing much, but still retaining the pay you earned. This goes double if the employer isn't giving you any relocation bonus (which is probably usually the case these days; these used to be common 10+ years ago, but not any more unfortunately).
I think this week-long interview thing is a pile of crap really. They're getting a week of free work out of the candidate in exchange for nothing besides the cost of renting this condo (which they've probably rented long-term to save on costs, and they just stick a new candidate in it every week) and airfare, and the candidate walks away with nothing if he doesn't get the job, except for week in a beachfront condo which isn't all that great when you have to spend all day at the workplace, and not at the condo. The candidate's significant other might be getting a good deal here, but only if they had nothing better to do than spend a week on the beach while their SO was interviewing; if they have their own job or don't want to burn their vacation time this way, it's not such a great deal at all. I think this would be fine, however, if they paid the candidate for their time on an hourly basis like any normal contractor, but this company is probably too cheap to do that. I'm surprised this is even legal actually.
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I'm surprised this is even legal actually.
Consensual contracts entered into by adults?
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Violation of minimum wages laws?
Shachar
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In the United States, there are whole categories of consensual contracts entered into by adults that are completely illegal, or at least have no standing in law.
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well dont leave us hanging, did you find yourself a rich man
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Hiring all new people as contractors is the right approach for the extended/on the job interview. The overhead cost of contracting companies is worth it when you want to get rid of someone that can't do the job or doesn't play well with others. It's a great way to help the company evaluate the person and vice versa. Every company says they treat their employees well, but being a contractor will show you whether or not you'd still want to work there if you weren't paid by the hour.
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Why are you feeding the troll?
Re:Any AFRICAN programmers? (Score:5, Funny)
Because he read some place that African trolls are starving?
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Unfortunately, as an African, you apparently haven't spent enough time on Slashdot to realize that almost no good ever comes from reading comments by Anonymous Cowards, and this place is full of filth when you browse at that level. (Of course, it's still full of assholes even if you exclude all the AC comments, but it's not quite as horrible.)
Re:Any AFRICAN programmers? (Score:5, Insightful)
What have Africans ever given the world?
Homo sapiens? That's good enough for me.
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Well, they did say this was in Florida. That state isn't exactly known for being good at protecting workers' rights.