Cisco Offices Raided, Execs Arrested In Brazil 537
Many readers are writing in about the raids and arrests in Brazil's Cisco operation. At least 40 people were arrested earlier today, and Brazilian authorities asked the US to issue arrest warrants for five more suspects in this country. The allegation is that Cisco brought at least $500M of equipment into Brazil without properly paying import duties, and now owes over $826M in taxes, fines, and interest.
brazil is insane (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:brazil is insane (Score:5, Insightful)
Who do these Brazilians think they are anyway? Some kind of sovereign nation?
Re:In related news... (Score:2, Insightful)
$826 million in taxes, fines, and interest. Tax evasion (or avoision, as Kent Brockman likes to say) results in fines in addition to the taxes that are owed. And then every day they don't pay the taxes and fines, they get interest added. And that compounds.
The United States has done similar things. For larger amounts. Usually, it gets settled out of court for a fine; I don't know Brazilian courts, but I still suspect that'll happen here.
Pretty hefty tax rate... (Score:1, Insightful)
That's a 165% tax rate!
Re:Pretty hefty tax rate... (Score:5, Insightful)
For some odd reason, latin american countries charge a ridiculous amount of tax on electronics. In the Dominican Republic you can expect to pay double or triple the normal price for any and all imported electronics. I tried to have a $300 camera sent to me via DHL, and they wanted $400 to pick it up from customs (13000 pesos).
I call that the opposite of progress... unfortunately many governments can't see beyond "now." "Oh hey... we can just charge a ridiculous amount of money on imports and make money!!! we win!"...... (I understand the tarrifs to help local businesses... but honestly... there aren't any camera manufacturers in any of those countries).
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:In other news (Score:3, Insightful)
In the end... (Score:4, Insightful)
The high tarrifs, bribes, and corrupt officials make this kind of thing inevitable, but it was still stupid to try to get around the taxes. Understandable, in the sense of closing your fruit stall during the shift of the corrupt cop who collects protection money, but still stupid.
The problem is that, like India, the Brazil market is big enough for people to take risks to sell there.
We'll have to see how it turns out, but I'd place a small bet that the local Cisco office bribed the wrong official - who either turned on them or done got themselves busted.
That's why a (relatively) honest system is so important - certainty.
Re:Worse than ignorance, it's iggerunt. (Score:3, Insightful)
Then I read your comment, then read the above comments again. Nope, still a Cisco reference
Re:Worse than ignorance, it's iggerunt. (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually, the only points you made that are relevant to this discussion are 1-3 and that's a stretch as it is. All the rest of these are utter nonsense.
Re:Would have gotten away with it too if it weren' (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:In related news... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Brazil import laws (Score:3, Insightful)
You get this wherever there is a bit of corruption. On one side if you have people that want to stamp it out they have to be strict. On the other side if you have people that want to increase the amount of corruption they make the conditions a lot stricter so you either have to jump through hundreds of hoops or pay them the bribe to make it all simple.
As for blaming the Brazillians entirely - there seems to be a tendancy for many US companies to export the worst of their management, the sort of guys that never got the message that slavery is a bad thing and that theft is ok so long as they don't get caught. Let's see what comes out in court.
Re:Would have gotten away with it too if it weren' (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Worse than ignorance, it's iggerunt. (Score:3, Insightful)
So it's your position that as long as the payoffs happen within the rules, it can't be counted as corruption? You are also aware that the rules are written by the same people receiving the money?
Corporations have written self-serving laws, handed them over to congress, paid the right congresscritters, and the laws were passed as originally written. But you're prepared to assert that because there are rules for that process and the companies followed those rules, that the US government is not corrupt.
Semantic bullshit. The US government is systematically corrupt. Just as illegal does not mean immoral, legal does not mean moral.
Re:Translation (Score:2, Insightful)
It's only getting started.
Re:More about Brazil: (Score:5, Insightful)
9) The Brazilian media constantly emphasizes violent events in
Brazilian cities. However, the murder rate in Rio de Janeiro was, the last
time I checked, about two-thirds of the murder rate in the U.S. capital city,
Washington, D.C.
have all the styles of their own music, and those of other countries, too.
was Rubberneck [amazon.com]. On an average night they would draw an
audience of 40. A local band in a small town in Brazil drew an audience of
800.
States.
Re:Worse than ignorance, it's iggerunt. (Score:3, Insightful)
Message to Innovative companies from Brazil (Score:3, Insightful)
Sincerely,
The country of Brazil
Re:Worse than ignorance, it's iggerunt. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Another Brazilian's point-of-view (Score:2, Insightful)
You know all your competitors are doing it, you know the police will find some, but not all of the corrupts, not even enough to let you sell your goods legally without any problem. So you have a thought choice:
- be corrupt like everybody else, sell your goods and risk jail.
- be honest and bankrupt because your competitors have a much better price.
Re:How to do business in corrupt countries (Score:4, Insightful)
4. Don't do business in Brazil.
If enough major corporations chose option 4, the problem would rectify itself.
Re:Only the stupid pay taxes in Brazil (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:In related news... (Score:3, Insightful)
Uhhh, well, that's about 6 buckets of retarded (Score:5, Insightful)
Imagine if a store took a similar tactic: Some people steal merchandise, and others simply choose to go to other stores. Rather than perhaps raise prices a bit to cover costs and work on advertising and loss prevention the owner says "Well because people aren't buying, I have to double prices." Now the number of shoppers drops even more, so the owner again says "Even less people are shopping here, so I have to triple my new prices." Eventually nobody at all buys anything because it's just too expensive.
Similar shit with taxes. If the government raises your taxes a bit, maybe you complain but you still pay them. But let's suppose now that the government set them to an unaffordable level. Suppose that the government took 50% of your income, sales tax was also 50% and then other taxes like property tax added up to be over 100% of the rest of your income. Suppose that there was literally no way you could pay all the taxes. What would you do? Live in the street and try to pay them, or simply avoid them to the maximum extent possible?
It's easy to get a high and might attitude of "Well everyone should just pay," when it's not your ass in the fire and your family going hungry. However you try it some time, see how it goes.
If people cannot comply with the law, they just won't.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Uhhh, well, that's about 6 buckets of retarded (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Worse than ignorance, it's iggerunt. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Only the stupid pay taxes in Brazil (Score:2, Insightful)
Go learn how to be a citizen. Pay your taxes, and DEMAND them to be returned in form of worthwhile services. Do a revolution if needed, instead of playing football the whole day and ignoring your problems. You want to know why Europe and US are the first world, while you will always be the third? Because we had revolutions, DEMANDED our rights, and imposed reasonable laws that the government AND citizens HAVE to follow, instead of cowardly breaking the law as a national sport and stupidly claiming that law-breaking is bliss.
Now I understand why Brazil is a country which people despise: instead of following the laws and paying taxes, their citizens prefer to break the law. Without law, there's no order, no future, no progress. No group can evolve without laws, it becomes chaos and corruption. If you think your taxes are too high, CHANGE THE LAW, but pay what the law dictates until the law changes.
No wonder you say your political representatives are so corrupt. They are only the reflex of their own citizens. Look at the mirror and you will see what the fundamental problem of Brazil is.
Re:Translation (Score:2, Insightful)
I have lots of Indian friends, and they all say exactly what you said about the bribes in the public sector...
It's not just Cisco fault. (Score:1, Insightful)
We have a very serious ethics problem here at Brazil: some people thinks it's ok to break bad laws instead to fight against then.
In the same time, our goverment takes advantage from that making really nasty (but profittable) laws to harvest every cent from the brazilians that don't want (or can't) break the law.
To gain an edge (or to protect itself from others taking the edge), some managers choose to break the law in the name of theis jobs - blatantly ignoring the fact that some day that mistake can be charged.
They take their chances on the short run, as all they have to loose is their jobs - what they already are loosing anyway, as their employers can't earn a good money paying every tax and duty.
Re:Only the stupid pay taxes in Brazil (Score:5, Insightful)
However, if CISCO is found guilty I will commend the authorities for what they're doing.
Reality, my friend, is that people shouldn't choose which laws to follow, which laws to break. The involved executives, if proven guilty, are not preaching civil disobedience. Instead, they want to increase the bottom line and have a fat bonus at the end of the year. That's exactly the reason why Brazil is what it is today. And by somehow condoning or justifying their business practices we're simply perpetuating the problem. Can't we just be honest and obey the freaking law? Really
Finally, your characterization of the problem with public servants in Brazil wasn't exact, I'm afraid. It's true that we don't have the entrepreneurial spirit seen in countries such as the US, and many people do grow up to work for the government, partly because of also distorted labour laws, who give these people the so called "stability", which can be understood as "I can be a slack and not get fired".
However, many public servants are responsible citizens and you shouldn't hold that against them. Both my parents were public servants (they retired after 30-something years working) and they are some of the most hard working people I've ever seen. I have many friends who work for the government, some by choice, and they are all responsible, hard-working people. And just to clarify, I believe only congressmen and senators retire after 8 years. Statistically speaking they are the vast minority.
My 2 cents.
Regards,
Andre
Re:Would have gotten away with it too if it weren' (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Only the stupid pay taxes in Brazil (Score:2, Insightful)
I was hopping to meet another Brazilian who had more than half a brain!
You got it right! The main problem is exactly that, if you don't agree with some law, you fight to revoke it, but you CAN'T CHOOSE WHICH LAWS YOU FOLLOW AND WHICH YOU DON'T.
And if poor old CISCO did what they did. And I am sure their clients paid full price for the taxes they didn't pay (and I know this because I already made quotes for CISCO equipment) off to jail with them.
So there!
And to all those that believe that you should only pay taxes when you get got: I hope you move to some other country if any will have you!
I had a choice and I am still here, paying my taxes so all you losers can evade yours and complain about poor public service. WTG.
Re:Would have gotten away with it too if it weren' (Score:4, Insightful)
There. Corrected that for you.
Re:Would have gotten away with it too if it weren' (Score:3, Insightful)
Just a thought: If you don't pay taxes, you can't wonder why the government doesn't have the money to provide worthwhile services.
Just on the line of "If you don't get involved in politics - some to the extent of not even bothering to vote - you can't complain much on who got elected"
Multiculturalism? (Score:5, Insightful)
No offense to my argentinian "hermanos", but Argentina is about as multicultural as a WASP meeting. I don't see why people are so upset with the case. People committed a crime (it is a criminal offense here), they go to jail. I wish more high-ups would go to jail when caught wrongdoing.
To all trolls that keep saying "stop doing business in Brazil", do you really think CISCO and others do business here because they want to be kind to us? They want us to have access to that-oh-so-nice-and-advanced american hardware so we can be happy? They want to sell their stuff and that's all. If they leave the market, someone else will take it. And in case you haven't noticed, China has been replacing US as a hardware provider. Perhaps they still haven't got routers as good as CISCO's, but they will eventually. And if american companies leave markets open to them, the quicker they will. So good luck for any american companies wishing to leave the brazilian market.
Besides, the ones who really suffer with the high taxes and corruption are brazilian people and consumers. I highly doubt CISCO passed on the savings they got to their clients. Stop whining just because some american company was caught red-handed.
Re:have you ever been there? (Score:2, Insightful)
You can't either use your parents as a point of reference on this, unless they have worked in Brazil , as the public servant positions there, greatly differ from ours here. The amount of corruption is also a factor. You have to remember that although we like to bitch, we have it pretty good in north america, wether you talk about canada or usa.
I would love to hear from a politicians point of view about working in that country. Although I am sure a lot of b*llsh*t would be vocalized as any politcian would, I tend to think you would be enlightened as to the situations over there....