UK Police Charge Suspected Anonymous Spokesman 247
An anonymous reader writes "Scotland Yard has tonight charged 18-year-old Jake Davis, who was arrested in the Shetland Islands last week, with five offenses including unauthorized computer access and conspiracy to carry out a DDoS (distributed denial-of-service) attack against the SOCA (Serious Organized Crime Agency) website. When announcing his arrest on Wednesday, police said that they believed Davis used the online nickname 'Topiary' and acted as the spokesperson for the Anonymous and LulzSec hacking groups. Topiary's final twitter message said 'You can't arrest an idea' just before his arrest."
Darn kids these days (Score:3)
Back in the day we had fun stealing cars for joy rides and doing jewlery store heists. These days kids have fun attacking computers, much more victim less crime.
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It really depends on the data. Remember that a large part of the protests against the Wikileaks release of Afghanistan info was the potential to endanger the lives of civilian informants. Such computer crimes as we see these days can have the potential to hurt a lot of people. Not that a terrorist couldn't also hurt a lot of people using a stolen car. It just depends on what's actually done.
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If the night raids get too good in your area, you have an informant..
No need for complex computer files in areas where people are close
COINTELPRO was great at getting groups to replace their own top leaders with well placed gossip.
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Wikileaks data was thoroughly vetted. And revealing the misdeeds and, even worse, incompetence, of both the government and the chain of command has a serious potential of saving lives, both of Afgani civilians (whom I don't really care about) and our soldiers.
Re:Darn kids these days (Score:5, Funny)
Back in the day we had fun stealing cars for joy rides and doing jewlery store heists. These These days kids have fun attacking computers, much more victim less crime.
I think that Sony would disagree with you there. I doubt that the total value of your stolen cars and jewellery would add up to anywhere near what Sony has lost due to its recent hacks.
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I'll bet every person who was infected by a Sony rootkit or anyone who wants to mod or run a second OS on their Playstation will say it was just deserts.
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I'll bet every person who was infected by a Sony rootkit or anyone who wants to mod or run a second OS on their Playstation will say it was just deserts.
So you mean all 3 of them?
Re:Darn kids these days (Score:4, Informative)
"It was estimated by internet security expert Dan Kaminsky that XCP was in use on more than 500,000 networks". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal [wikipedia.org]
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If all they did was break in and publish how they were able to do it then I would agree with you but they didn't stop there. They published the personal details of millions of customers including passwords and credit card info.
To use your analogy, to show that the "Emperor is Naked" you don't have to piss on the peasants.
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Re:Darn kids these days (Score:5, Insightful)
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You can arrest the person (Score:5, Insightful)
You may not be able to arrest an idea, but it seems you can arrest the person.
Re:You can arrest the person (Score:5, Interesting)
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/07/internet-abuzz-with-claims-that-uk-police-picked-up-the-wrong-topiary.ars [arstechnica.com]
It's possible that they are tossing the police ringers.
Modern day "Zorro" (Score:3)
Remember that movie a few years back, "Zoro" with Antonio Banderas? (If not, it's probably up on Netflix Instant Play or a torrent someplace)
The movie was all about the "passing of the guard" - a new, younger man taking the role of "Zoro", the anonymous masked crime fighter of the previous generation. It's a good movie, so I recommend it highly. But it also does a passable job of showing the difference between an identity and an idea.
I'm guessing that there are, in fact, a half dozen or more actual people w
Re:Shared the same identity (Score:2)
Semi off topic, but I emailed Samzenpus here and I got replies back from
From: "Robert Rozeboom"
and
From: "Bob Roberts" (This sender is DomainKeys verified)
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It would be funny if all the proponents of Anonymous and Lulzsec started using the name "Topiary" when signing up for forums, etc.
Will the real Slim Shady please stand up?
Re:You can arrest the person (Score:5, Interesting)
It wouldn't be the first time. The UK police have no problem arresting people based on the flimsiest of evidence and then hoping they will crack during questioning. Unfortunately what tends to happen is that the person doesn't admit to something they didn't do and they end up dragging it out for as long as possible and then trying to bullshit their way to a conviction in court. If the defence lawyer is any good they get some experts in to refute the evidence, but unfortunately there is a tendency not to do that if the prosecution has already decided to use an expert witness because it is assumed that said witness will be impartial and objective.
Operation Ore is the most notorious example of police relying on clearly flawed evidence, but there are many others. In Operation Ore they received a large number of credit card numbers that had been used to pay for child pornography from US police and simply arrested all the card holders. They didn't bother to check if the card details had been stolen, they just rushed in and destroyed dozens of lives for a few easy headlines.
The only Omagh bombing suspect's trial collapsed because all they had was weak DNA evidence which matched him and a schoolboy in England. Barry George did several years in prison based on a single spec of gunpowder found on his clothes, which were stored in a room containing other garments with gunpowder on them.
Today's lesson (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Today's lesson (Score:4, Interesting)
That does not matter.
Do you think the riots which resulted in many death in other countries were the "right way" to do it? Probably not.
The point is that no other way works. You can't spend 30 years of your life trying to get a big political party and get shot down by your own guys after those 30 years. What you can do is protest. And if you protest, it's not going to be an email or a blog post, even not a public performance.
You protest with things that everyone is going to _care_ about.
Riots. Hacking high level web sites. Whatever else. At least, they don't kill people or destroy their lives - the government does that, daily, if you haven't noticed. That the proven way to change things, so far.
What I find the most sad, is such arguments as "real activists" "saving lives". It sounds like "and also they capture pedophiles" and such crap. They don't save lives. They also don't do shit. If you haven't noticed that either, the governments, corporations haven't changed, and never do, until a revolution rise. How long do your real activists need, 100, 200, 500 years? Please, get a fucking clue.
Revolutions started by riots, and other such acts,once again. Hacking is part of that, now.
Re:Today's lesson (Score:5, Insightful)
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Like what?
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Ah, the the government approved form of demonstration! That'll learn 'em.
Re:Today's lesson (Score:5, Insightful)
What alternative would you suggest? I have tried writing to my MP several times and either get fobbed off or nothing changes. Peaceful protest is pointless - 2 million marched against invading Iraq but where completely ignored. The only political party offering any real reform sold out the second they got into power. Corporations are even worse.
On the other hand violence does work. The Poll Tax protests were ignored until people starting throwing things and smashing stuff up. It had to be sustained for weeks though, not just a one-off.
The only non-violent thing that works is leaking evidence, such as in the MP's expenses scandal. Since most people are not in a position to leak information then hacking to get it is somewhat legitimised. Aside from anything else it lets us know which companies have a clue about security and can be trusted, and in several cases it has exposed law-breaking (ACS:Law, HB Gary, MediaDefender etc). I can appreciate the irony of hacking to expose law-breaking but if leaking data with no criminal intent is justified by the content of said data then acquiring it by hacking is not far off.
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+1, how charmingly naive!
Re:Today's lesson (Score:4, Interesting)
Anarchy has never benefited a single country on the face of the planet.
I am not a fan of Anarchism as a political system, but that sentence is empirically wrong. In early 20th century europe there were at least two cases I know of, Ukraine and Spain, where Anarchism lasted for a while, and was pretty successful in economical terms. For Spain for example it's more or less proven that the anarchist period saw a sharp rise in worker productivity.
Both didn't last long in the grand scale of things, but their military defeat does not relate to them being anarchist regions - they were just small and didn't have a chance against their much more powerful enemy (Spain: The spanish fascist movement with support from other fascist movements from all over Europe; Ukraine: the Red Army).
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real, lasting change. None of which involves "riots"
On the contrary, that's the basis for most real lasting changes. Look it up. Women's rights movements, blacks, end of slavery, overthrowing kings etc.
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"Neither the British or US government is an evil fascist state which brutally subjugates the populace"
You haven't been watching their actions lately, have you? Teahadists and Republicrats alike essentially holding our asses hostage over non-existent fucking money, acting like the world fucking police, and trying to undermine the foundation of their governments for the profit of their friends.
Take your blinders off.
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Teahadists and Republicrats alike essentially....., acting like the world fucking police
No, you're getting it backwards.....Democrats act like world police, with Clinton in Srebrenica and Obama in Libya. Republicans tend to go on evil-clensing quests: like Bush in Iraq and Reagan against communism.
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Re:Today's lesson (Score:4, Informative)
The major purpose of Bush in Iraq was to advance US corporate interests and secure control over oil etc. The secondary purpose was to test new weapon systems and ensure vast sums of money were either "lost" or awarded to US military contractors and other companies. Most of the huge sums of money spent on the war went directly into corporate pockets.
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Are you saying that gas prices have gone down since we've been in Iraq? But the petroleum industry has been making record profits.
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In response to an earlier post claiming that the purpose of our war in Iraq was to advance the interests of certain US businesses and secure oil, you replied saying that even individuals in the US would like to see gas prices be lower.
I was pointing out that if one of the reasons to invade Iraq was to lower the price of gas, it has backfired spectacularly. But this hasn't particularly harmed the US businesses that the earlier poster thought were the intended beneficiaries of the war. This suggests that eith
Re:Today's lesson (Score:4, Insightful)
Going to get troll modded for this but whatever.
You agree that the governments are not brutally subjugating the populace. You agree they are far from perfect also.
Then you claim that if they were brutally subjugating the populace hacking, defacing, and dossing websites would not be the correct response.
I'm sorry but I think you just proved anons point and their methods (while claiming contrary). Anon is using defacing and dos attacks as a form of peaceful protest. I wouldn't condone them going much further at the current time but denial of service and high profile defacing in form of protest seems like the perfect response to freedoms, rights, and liberties being slowly eroded.
If you ask me, sure they are a bunch of script kiddies, but I am certain what they are doing is required with the current state of things. I also applaud taking action, now, and peacefully, before shit really hits the fan and people in the US / Britain are required to pick up arms to fight for real. (I think we all agree getting to that point would suck)
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I'm sorry but I think you just proved anons point and their methods (while claiming contrary). Anon is using defacing and dos attacks as a form of peaceful protest. I wouldn't condone them going much further at the current time but denial of service and high profile defacing in form of protest seems like the perfect response to freedoms, rights, and liberties being slowly eroded.
That's more along the lines of censorship, because you're impairing their ability to communicate; you're doing the online equivale
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To the tiny minority both smart enough to see through the bullshit and astroturfed lies and willing to spend the effort to do so. Remember the healthcare "debate" in the US?
As another saying goes, the best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter. Also, "You'll have the vote of every thinking man, Adlai." Adlai Stevenson: "Thank you, but I need a majority."
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If you let everybody speak, and let everybody listen, the truth will be known.
However, the mass media is controlled by a very small group... While everyone may be able to speak, only the mass media will be listened to by any significant proportion of people and thus their agendas are furthered and everything else ignored.
If someone were to put up their own website explaining their side, how would anyone even learn of the existence of that site?
There is no way to be heard without money and power, and the only way to get money and power is to be a part of the current system and thus ha
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I could not help but think of this woody guthrie quote:
I never stopped to think of it before, but you know, a policeman will just stand there and let a banker rob a farmer; or a finance man rob a working man. But if a farmer robs a banker, you would have a whole dern army of cops out a shooting at him. Robbery is a chapter in etiquette.
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Right, (Score:2)
So you can only protest against a government once it has opened the gas-chambers? Some might say it is a bit to late. In fact some people claim that the right to protest and even cause inconvience by doing so is the sign of a healthy democracy. A sign of a failing democracy is usually people going "oh it ain't quite a nightmarish hellhole yet, so lets all just lay on our backs until it is".
Freedom, your attitude towards it sucks.
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But they have already brought change. They have shown digital data is not always safe, and that there is always an exposure risk. This has shown it's effects already in The Netherlands, where the public transport records are being kept for shorter periods now, and these records contain a lot of personal information, due to a new public transport system where you have a card which has your personal details linked to it.
I rather see that these records are not kept at all, and luckily they also have anonymous
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Guess you've never been kettled [wikipedia.org] and charged by horses for taking part in a (up until that point) peaceful protest against the ideology of the ruling government? I have. It's life threatening, and has proven fatal on more than one occasion. And undoubtedly terrifying. This is state oppression of the population by any definition I understand.
Or been detained indefinitely without charge and sleep depr
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A DDos attack is hardly attacking a web site, in reality it is no different to temporarily obstructing a corporations main entry point ie. a misdemeanour in line with disturbing the peace. Those add on charges are just abuses of the law by the law. Seriously how fucked up and ludicrous is the idea of conspiracy to commit a misdemeanour as being a serious crime
That isn't a fair comparison. A company who does business solely through its website can't do business if the website is shut down. That would be aki
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A DDoS attack is also a violation of a persons right to free speech.
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I fail to see why you can not understand that a protest is meant to be disruptive and the substantive difference between shutting something down permanently versus a short term non-damaging temporary disruption, not too mention the idea of which takes precedence corporate profits or people's rights. Just to be certain, a corporation is not a person, it is a business illusion behind which to hide amoral douche bag behaviour and to be able to put the penalties for lying, cheating, stealing and even killing o
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Also with a sit in protesters people are accountable.
Not a bunch of cowards hiding behind their keyboards while they attack another entity.
Evidence suggests wrong person (Score:5, Informative)
Evidence such as previously leaked information, IRC logs, and the age, identity and location of the suspect arrested suggest that they caught the wrong person.
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Did you actually read that IRC log? Worse. Double-bluff. Evar. Choice quotes:
[removed]: S'up Daniel
Topiary: s'appening [removed]
Topiary: anyway I trust you so yeah
Topiary: we can keep this between us
[removed]: Wont say a word bro
Right.
Too young to hide? (Score:2)
Are they too young to know Tor [torproject.org] and the like?
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Tor will successfully hide your IP from every node except your entry point. However, by inspecting the actual data, you can sometimes learn something about the origin of the packet. Just because an envelope has no return address, that doesn't mean you can't figure out who sent it by reading the actual letter.
What idea? (Score:2)
You can't arrest an idea'
What idea are they pushing? I thought they just liked hacking sites that have weak security.
Re:What idea? (Score:4, Funny)
POWER VACUUM! (Score:2)
Re: 'You can't arrest an idea' (Score:5, Insightful)
Why are most of these evil hackers teenagers? (Score:3, Interesting)
Extraordinary rendition (Score:3, Interesting)
This is completely crazy. They guy was in Shetland, in Scotland, and the Met Police flew up from London in a light aircraft, landed, raided his house and flew him out on the same aircraft to London, England. He was arrested in one legal jurisdiction and is being held in another. This is like the FBI flying from Washington DC to Oregon, arresting someone, and flying them straight out to Washington again. It's not legal. Add to that that in Scotland he can only be held for 24 hours without charge but in England he can be held, it seems, indefinitely with court approval and you have an extraordinary rendition. The human rights court is going to have a nightmare with this one, and the UK is alreadytearing itself apart due to the incompatibilities of one sovereign state having two seperate 'sovereign' legal systems.
Anyway, I asked for an answer from the Scottish First Minister. He's already fighting with the 'federal' UK government over this.
Free @Topiary!
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This is like the FBI flying from Washington DC to Oregon, arresting someone, and flying them straight out to Washington again. It's not legal.
Hint, the F in FBI stands for Federal. They have jurisdiction everywhere in the US on Federal crimes. You're seriously deluded if you think the FBI can only arrest people in Washington DC.
SOCA? (Score:2)
SOCA (Serious Organized Crime Agency)
Is this really an organization? In other words, are they srs?
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It is.
It always makes me wonder what kind of organised crime *isn't* serious.
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Fuck Anonymous, they all belong in jail. A bunch of self-glorifying script kiddies, that's all.
Says the Anonymous Coward.
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A bunch of self-glorifying script kiddies, that's all.
Just like old times hey?
I wonder if he'll turn out the same way as Mendax did.
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Hopefully the guy he's bunking with will have just as big a hardon for V for Vendetta, maybe he'll go gentle on him the first time.
It must be pointed out yet again that only in the USA, do people suddenly turn gay as soon as the bars slam shut (if American pop culture can be believed which in itself is an obviously ridiculous notion).
The guy is from the Shetland Isles. Anyone has been to Shetland or even just seen it on a map must be wondering how he can commit cyber-crimes with an internet connection slower than a second class postal stamp in a village that likely only recently gained electricity and running water.
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If they're going the conspiracy route then no, likely just having knowledge and tweeting the success would be sufficient to drag him in.
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...that he even participated in the attacks? Afaik, there is no law against releasing statements with permission from an organization.
That depends on the nature of the statements. If they can be construed as encouraging / assisting (inciting) serious crime, then yes absolutely he can be prosecuted under the serious crimes act. As indeed he has. It will be up to a jury to decide if he's guilty of the offence of course and I suppose his best hope would be in the police have trouble identifying him rather than some other "topiary" as the source of particular statements. If he was stupid enough to draft things on his PC and leave traces behi
Re:Do they have any evidence (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe the logic is that he knows *something* about the group, whatever it is, and the best way to get it out of him is haul him far from home and trump up a bunch of charges. He's only 19 after all.
Re:Do they have any evidence (Score:4, Interesting)
So, we're talking Britain here. There's still splinter groups out there from the IRA who also have spokespersons. There's people who blow up subway cars who have spokespersons. The idea here is to use a route that still protects the real core of damage causers, meaning your spokesperson doesn't really know all that much. Maybe one or more of those meatspace groups won't bother to call in and take 'responsibility' for the next atrocity and the British government will be left wondering just which group did it. A government that goes after spokespersons better have reason to think they can provide important, even vital data, or there's a big downside. Going after one for possibly knowing 'something' is simultaneously saying the group you are after isn't a real threat and you're confident your actions won't provoke them more than the info the spokesperson gives you is worth. Do you see any reason why the British government can make such a claim to its citizens?
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Well firstly - there's no danger of Lulzsec not calling it in, they love publicity.
Secondly, no, I don't consider them a 'real' threat. They're not threatening lives.
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Secondly, no, I don't consider them a 'real' threat. They're not threatening lives.
They are doing worse than that - they are threatening some life-styles: the ones of the politicians and corporate execs.
Re:Do they have any evidence (Score:4, Interesting)
The modus operandi of government in the UK is "we must be seen to act, so do something, anything".
This applies as much to the police as with politicians, since in the last 10 or 15 years the police has progressivelly been politicised (with any high-level manager that didn't dance to the tune being sidelined) and they're usually called upon to be the tool that does the some kind of action for the cameras.
The outcome is that they cannot be trusted: have they got the right man? Have they got the wrong man? Who knows.
They got somebody and the media reported they're doing something, so the real objective of the operation has already been achived. Probably in 2 or 3 months time when this guy finally faces a court (the only part of the system that actually cares about finding out the truth, rather than convicting somebody) it's quite possible that he's found innocent (or maybe all they manage to pin on him is something minor) and they will quietly release him, since by then the media would have moved on.
As the recent News of The World debacle has shown, in the UK the press has a huge amount of influence and both the politicians and high-level management inside the police have been trained to quickly find somebody to sacrifice whenever the press demands blood.
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"only 19"
Which means he's old enough to have sex (by three years in the UK), have children, marry, have a house, a mortgage, a credit card, a car, drink alcohol (18 in the UK), enter pubs, represent himself in court, sign legally-binding contracts (18), get loans, gamble, smoke and (most importantly) understand the standard police caution which states he's doesn't have to say anything and is entitled to access to a lawyer (even a free one appointed by the government if necessary).
This *MAN* isn't a kid. He
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FREE TOPIARY???
Sounds like they just don't want to pay for their sculpted shrubbery. The plants just want to be free.
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Re:Remember, remember (Score:4, Insightful)
Funny that, but prison rape isn't so much of a problem in the UK as it is in the great old US of A, where it seems to actually be encouraged as part of the punishment.
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Played up or not, it is a problem. [justdetention.org]
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Of all the people I've talked to in and out of prison
I guess you are American, and that means you know quite a few former prisoners because of this, but as the meme goes, the plural of Anecdote is not "statistic". Prison rape tends to happen to more normal / weaker prisoners in violent prisons. It is more common in state prisons than federal. It's also very area specific. The target group is unlikely to be a main group of friends of the average Slashdot reader. It's completely likely that it's happening and that the people that you know don't know about
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Prison rape is more a popular plot device, and cultural running-gag than an actual problem in the US. Aesop's fables are probably the closest analogy.
Studies have shown the problem is, in fact, very limited: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-01-17-prison-rape_x.htm [usatoday.com]
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Studies have shown the problem is, in fact, very limited
And then link to a page that says:
The two-year study, commissioned by the U.S. Justice Department for $939,233, has come under withering attack from other experts. The department has not endorsed the study, saying Fleisher has yet to turn over his data for closer examination.
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The two-year study, commissioned by the U.S. Justice Department for $939,233, has come under withering attack from other experts. The department has not endorsed the study, saying Fleisher has yet to turn over his data for closer examination.
Cindy Struckman-Johnson, professor of psychology at the University of South Dakota and one of nine commission members, said Fleisher's 155-page study is not in scientific form. She said there is no literature review, no raw data, and no in-depth explanation of his subjects or research methods.
So, when the Department of Justice gives you a million dollars, obviously you're supposed to lie and tell them what they want to hear, but this guy went so far overboard with it (essentially, nobody in prison is ever raped and anyone who claims they are is lying), even the sponsor will say "hold on a sec..."
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People in England don't quite have the same obsession with male anal sex as Americans seem to. I doubt anybody would get ass-raped in an English prison, and pretty much zero chance for somebody in a low security prison. Interesting Reddit article on coping in prison [reddit.com] here.
Phillip.
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60. isn't a whole lot. When you can demonstrate that .001 of a person though, I will be truly awestruck
- Dan.
Re:Because thats how to handle things. (Score:5, Funny)
You really have to work on shortening your revolutionary slogan. Try something catchy like "Corruption Shmorruption!!" or "Stupid Government, We Hate You!"
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Re:Because thats how to handle things. (Score:5, Informative)
Note the example he picks of an 'evil' oil company: BP. Of course everyone knows why, and before that the political meme was Exxon. But why do you ignore the full-on corruption, crime, and murder, of oil companies that are truly evil, like Gazprom? It's because you only have a shallow understanding of the subject.
Likewise, it is easy to get mad at Murdoch (since no one likes him anyway), but are you aware that many UK newspapers were doing the same kind of thing? The story there isn't about Murdoch, it's about a corrupt political/police system in the UK.
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>>Likewise, it is easy to get mad at Murdoch (since no one likes him anyway), but are you aware that many UK newspapers were doing the same kind of thing?
Hell, the NYT *defended* their use of hacked phone data to get stories.
Murdoch is getting run through the grinder mainly because he's Murdoch.
>>This post is exactly an example of someone who has become a parrot for the latest political memes
Does it surprise you that it was an 18-year old? =)
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>>Yes, it does- by the age of 18 most people understand what a paragraph is.
Not if they use Twitter. Then you only can construct your thoughts in pithy, quasi-related sentence-paragraphs.
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Gazprom is Russian and he likely cares about things involving his country not somewhere half way across the world.
Murdoch owns lots of media in the US, and hence his companies doing bad things in the UK is of far more relevance on slashdot (a US site) than corruption in the political/police system in another country.
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How on earth did parent get modded up? He is like the other crazies that claim if we don't help Sudan then we shouldn't help Libya. So if you don't take on every "bad guy" in the world simultaneously then there is no point doing anything at all? If he knows about Exxon and they are doing bad things then he can highlight it. If somebody else knows more about Gazprom then they can highlight that. You aren't judge and jury about what other people can protest, why don't you do your own protest against Gazprom?
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How the fuck did you get modded up?
Look, I realise that you people generally dropped out of your education aged 14 convinced that you were twenty times as intelligent as everyone else in your class and that you know everything already, but there's a few things your mighty intellects don't quite understand. I'll try and put it in simple bullet points.
* We live in a society with particular laws
* Like them or not, we abide by those laws, or we run foul of them
* DDoS is a crime in both the States and the UK, as