Women Dropping Out of IT 706
Women's eNews has an interesting look at women in tech, with numbers showing that women are bailing out of the IT field at a rapid pace. "Technology jobs are predicted to grow at a faster rate than all other jobs in the professional sector, up to 22% over the next decade, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Compensation is also good. In 2008, women in tech made an average salary of $70,370. ... But women's stake in that rosy outlook is questionable. For starters, men's pay during the same time period was $80,357. A study by the National Center for Women and Information Technology ... also finds that women are leaving computer careers in staggering numbers. 'Fifty-six percent of women in technology companies leave their organizations at the mid-level point, 10-20 years in their careers,' said Catherine Ashcraft, the senior research scientist who authored the report. In 2008, women held only 25% of all professional IT-related jobs, down from 36% in 1991, according to the group's report, 'Women in IT: The Facts.'"
This just proves (Score:4, Insightful)
They're smarter than the men.
That explains the pay difference... (Score:4, Insightful)
In 2008, women in tech made an average salary of $70,370...men's pay during the same time period was $80,357....
Fifty-six percent of women in technology companies leave their organizations at the mid-level point, 10-20 years in their careers
Children? (Score:5, Insightful)
Could it possibly be that women drop out of these jobs 10-20 years into their careers to have children? Could this also explain the difference in "average" salary if their careers have a break or work shorter weeks?
Re:Not just women (Score:1, Insightful)
also a dumping ground for narcissistic assholes apparently.
Re:This just proves (Score:4, Insightful)
He's absolutely right. Women are too smart for careers in computers. Most intelligent women take a close look at the unrepentantly fucked-up culture that surrounds computing careers, and run like hell.
It's men who are dumb enough to tolerate the aspy-programmer types, the sneering arrogant IT guys, the mailing lists full of flaming personal attacks leveled by closet bullies empowered by semi-anonymity, the phallic-compensating gadget consumerists, constantly "helpful" types who manage to insult while trying to rescue, and the sexually inept who use pinup wallpaper and leer at any woman in eyeshot. Membership in (or at least tolerance of) a repellant boys' club is an almost-mandatory feature of our industry.
Men don't have to be passionate about computers and programming to do well in our field. It's possible to be a day-job geek who never plays video games, doesn't own an iphone, and doesn't read xkcd, yet still thrive in high-tech. They get flamed them for a few newbie questions and they'll just think you're an asshole. But brilliant women who are not passionate about the field are smart enough to tell us all to go fuck ourselves after the first serious flame, because they know nobody should have to put up with that shit.
So yes. Women are in fact generally too smart for careers in computers. He nailed it.
Re:That explains the pay difference... (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Start at 18
2. Quit at 28
3. Have kids
4. Sue for discrimination in wages due to "experience".
5. PROFIT!
Does "Technology" = "IT" ? (Score:5, Insightful)
The terms are being used interchangeably here. The bloom is off the rose on IT careers, certainly (in the US, at least), and not just for women. And the number/type of pure IT careers is imploding, I'm sure (once upon a time there were "webmasters" who were counted as IT guys). But capital "T" Technology as a whole? The highly technical careers that use computers and software as tools? I'm not convinced.
Fewer woman programmers and server room jockeys, OK. But fewer woman technology workers and technicians? Not so sure. Sounds like stats being massaged to prove a point for somebody...
Re:Not just women (Score:3, Insightful)
By "aspy losers" do you refer to Asperger's syndrome? I haven't seen very much of this in IT. I don't think that everyone who lacks social skills has some kind of medical disease and even if I did, I am not qualified to diagnose it as I am not a doctor. It may be a lot more common among programmers than among sysadmins and front-line support folks who must deal with others on a regular basis.
I will say I am rather skilled in IT myself yet do not work in the field. My friends have asked me why, as though they picture some big-time salary and prestige like what any other profession requiring that much specialized knowledge would receive. I explained to them it is nothing like that, you are treated more like the janitor of the computer systems and are likely to be the whipping boy when things beyond your control go wrong. Example, the execs want to purchase a system but you advise against it because that system is known for frequent crashes. They purchase it anyway and now it's your fault that they have problems when they went against your advice. All authority structures are full of this kind of blatant hypocrisy. What's different about IT is that you are likely to get the blame no matter what, possibly because you are seen as an expense and not as a bread-winner like the sales team.
Re:This just proves (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:why? because.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not just women (Score:2, Insightful)
I never thought that I would live to see the Platonic ideal of horseshit, but here it is.
Re:Sexist field (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Sexist field (Score:5, Insightful)
You're absolutely right, but take it a step further: Even without women, why do we put up with bullshit pseudo-macho alpha geek behaviour? It's not like it's any benefit to getting the job done, and it smacks of the same sort of delusions that young lawyers and young stock brokers fall prey to, the "go hard or go home" school of working yourself to death for your boss's sake.
Well, actually, I don't. Nearing my 40th birthday, my consultancy is screaming along, and dealing with other IT guys in their late 30s, I find we're all quite mature and professional, and don't behave in ways that women would find offputting, usually because we have wives and often daughters that remind us that keyboard commandos aren't the only or best people in the world.
Re:This just proves (Score:5, Insightful)
I just quit my 15 year IT career to be an artist. As a bonus, all the medical conditions I had while in IT disappeared within 2 months of leaving it. I probably just added years to my life expectancy. My salary went way down, of course. Then again, without all the stress I'll live to spend some of it now.
IT isn't a place for women, but it's not a place for men either. It's a sinkhole that takes the best and brightest and turns them into bitter husks (if they don't run off screaming first).
IT careers are fundamentally broken. IT is not treated like a science. IT workers don't have unions to protect them like mechanics and doctors. IT gets the worst of everything. Most people can only immerse themselves in code and gadgetry for so long before they notice that their peers appear to be leading more enjoyable lives.
I still like computers and I follow the latest technologies that interest me, but I never intend to work IT again. It's just not worth it.
Re:Sexist field (Score:0, Insightful)
Nonsense. Men are scared dickless of skilled, knowledgable women, and do everything they can to undermine them and chase them away. You can't stand the competition, and you especially can't stand people who really do care about merit, rather than depend on good-ole-boy bullshitting.
Re:Children? (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, it does have something to do with it. When a woman takes parental leave, she goes on the bottom of the list to move up. And like it or not, women almost always get stuck with making sure the kids get to school, go to the doctor, etc. so she is usually the one who has to leave work early or miss an entire day on short notice, further putting her on bottom of the promotion list. When kids are sick, day care will NOT accept them (fever = no acceptance). Well shit, kids get sick all the time, and it is almost always mom that stays home with them, not dad. Who has to pick the kids up at school or day care? Mom usually gets that task.
Don't get me wrong, there are some great dads out there, but facts are facts and mom still does most of the maintenance in the vast majority of families. Typically, dad's job pays more, so the lesser paid takes more risk by taking time off. This is a cultural issue.
Even in a perfect situation where 1 man and 1 woman start the same job at the same pay and are equally capable, the woman will usually end up being slightly less reliable, punctual, and willing to work overtime. This is a trade off that she has made, and at the end of the day, the boss *IS* going to favor the guy who always shows up on time and will work overtime with no notice, no questions asked. That doesn't make him a bad boss, actually it is expected that you give the promotions and raises to the person showing the most initiative.
And when a woman takes off for 2 to 3 months, PAID, it does hurt the perception of her in the workplace. I know, I've seen it. The guys bitch because of it, and since most of the employees are guys to begin with, it puts the woman on the outside looking in. And if a woman is 3 months pregnant, the boss doesn't want to put her in charge of a long term project because she will be gone for a few months and maybe not come back ever. I see that happen all the time, where the woman works until birth is close just to get the 3 months extra pay, knowing she is going to not come back. I can't blame her, even if it causes problems for work. Even when a boss is perfectly fair, he would be negligent if he didn't consider these facts.
I'm certainly not trying to rag on women at all, but these are real world examples of why some women get paid less. Having 3 kids in 8 years will produce enough "paid while off" time that any boss HAS to consider it when promoting.
Re:Not just women (Score:1, Insightful)
I call BS. I'm a divorced/remarried male and I have almost equal time with my kids fortunately. I do take off when they have sniffles. I did it when I was still with my first wife...way more than she did(when you consider her time off was not with the kids and a whole other story). I encourage my employees to take time when they need it for family. It makes for a more loyal employee generally. I also encourage working from home. It's a great resource to rely on when some application needs a mod by COB on the day they are off.
Lack of objectivity? (Score:1, Insightful)
Maybe it's just my experience, but I have gathered that a higher percentage of women seem to ignore objective data if their "intuition" suggests otherwise. Fewer women have a "scientific method" approach to problem solving, and instead prefer a heuristic method (existential ideas about the world aside), or even "trial and error".*
Fields like IT, engineering, physics, chemistry, biology, etc require a more objective and rational approach to solving for unknowns. Statistically, this problem-solving method appears to be a field where women are lacking.
Re:This just proves (Score:4, Insightful)
Since when does owning a phone every non-geek has make you a geek?
Re:Children? (Score:5, Insightful)
"56% of women in technology companies leave their organizations at the mid-level point, 10-20 years in their careers," said Catherine Ashcraft, the senior research scientist who authored the report.
Is 56% a large number relative to other careers? What percentage of women in retail sales change companies in their 30s? What percentage of men in tech companies change jobs in their 30s? Are we supposed be shocked by the number 56% in the absence of anything to compare it to?
I'm a guy who has been working as a software developer for 20 years, and I changed organizations (companies) in my 30s. And it had nothing to do with children.
Re:This just proves (Score:5, Insightful)
Fucking Gods! The is the most sexists post I've seen in slashdot in ages! But its aimed at men so it ok right?
Women are not more intelligent than men, statistics prove it. Women simply have different options and opportunities.
It's men who are dumb enough to tolerate the aspy-programmer types, the sneering arrogant IT guys,
These are mostly myth, sure they exists but I've been in several IT firms and people are generally nice.
the mailing lists full of flaming personal attacks leveled by closet bullies empowered by semi-anonymity,
That's human interaction for you, guess what? Women are prone to as much if not much more drama when it comes to discussions.
the phallic-compensating gadget consumerists,
Yes! The only reason people consume is because they have small dicks! That explains why women love to go shopping! No wait, consuming is only bad when you are a guy right?
constantly "helpful" types who manage to insult while trying to rescue,
Again myth, and you'd be surprised how women manage to be dickheads nonetheless. My mother worked in an all female environment and I've heard several stories about abusive bosses and cheating employees.
and the sexually inept who use pinup wallpaper and leer at any woman in eyeshot.
Teehee, you said "sexually inept", you should've said "sexually repressed" but of course you wanted to be as offensive as possible.
Even so this is about your only stab that almost hits something, but women aren't excepmt from this because they are smarter, they have the privilege of having a lower sex drive meaning not only they have less urges but also that there's a ton of guys ready to calm any urge that might arise.
Men don't have to be passionate about computers and programming to do well in our field.
That's questionable, Show me a good programmer that isn't passionate about programming.
But even so, what shall we do with men who ARE passionate about programming? Shot them?
But brilliant women who are not passionate about the field are smart enough to tell us all to go fuck ourselves after the first serious flame, because they know nobody should have to put up with that shit.
Well if they are not passionate about the field by definition they don't have the drive to remain in the field you dumb ass. What about brilliant women who ARE passionate about computers? Or does passion about a carrier equal stupidity? Or is it maybe just for IT?
Your post is dripping with sexism, hate and intentional stupidity. A modern society should not have any acceptance for such a despicable attitude.
Re:Not just women (Score:2, Insightful)
Define "comparable experience". There is a vast difference in talent and ability between people who work in IT, and none of that can be reflected in any objective metrics.
Re:This just proves (Score:5, Insightful)
>>>all the medical conditions I had while in IT disappeared within 2 months of leaving it
I refuse to let myself become stressed-out in my job. Even if my boss is breathing down my back and saying, "If you don't get this done I'll find someone else who can," I just ignore the mother fucker. I chose this career to ENJOY it not to be treated like a McDonalds employee, and if he does replace me with somebody else, so be it. At least I'll be happier than Mr. Heart Attack.
Re:Lack of objectivity? (Score:2, Insightful)
Maybe it's just my experience, but I have gathered that a higher percentage of women seem to ignore objective data if their "intuition" suggests otherwise. ... Statistically, this problem-solving method appears to be a field where women are lacking.
Except you haven't done any studies, just "gathered." You say "statistically" to give your assertion an air of scientific credibility, but you have no statistical methodology here. You're going with your gut feeling. Your hunch. Your ... wait for it ... intuition.
Pot, meet kettle.
Re:why? because.. (Score:4, Insightful)
>>>If I'm speaking most men will just interrupt and talk right over as if I'm not even in the ro
So? Men do the same to me, and I am a man. That's how men communicate. Is it rude? Yes but that's how men are - constantly interrupting one another. It's not because you're a woman but because the men are treating you like any other man. You need to learn to interrupt them too, if you want to be heard.
.
>>>And if I'm competent, which I am, I'm seen as a threat and treated as "the enemy"..
Again, no different than how men treat me, and I'm a man. It is the way of things. Maybe you need to read "Men Are From Mars" which has very useful insights into how men think and talk differently from women, because you seem to expect men to act like women (don't interrupt, don't be competitive), and they simply aren't hardwired that way
.
Re:This just proves (Score:5, Insightful)
My IT career quit me. {sigh}
I haven't found new work in it, and with a total income of a whopping $0 (not including unemployment and friends giving me food and places to sleep), I have to consider other options.
I've been trying to find serious IT work. I'm either:
1) Over qualified, where they don't want me because the senior folks are afraid I'll take their job, or I'll bail as soon as better money comes along.
2) Not qualified, because I don't know some specific qualification required for the position. I may seem like I know everything, but it's still impossible to know everything.
3) Not interested at the rate. $10/hr for a 3 month part time gig that requires moving across the country to a high cost of living area isn't exactly an acceptable offer.
So women are leaving IT? Big deal. Lots of people are. I'm about ready to be a short order cook, or an auto mechanic, but lately I've just been a handyman, doing anything friends need in exchange for food, drinks, and places to sleep.
Re:This just proves (Score:5, Insightful)
If anti-intellectualism is what is required to blend well with the society, I say: fuck the society.
Re:This just proves (Score:4, Insightful)
Where my girlfriend works there's no shortage of insults and bullshit.
And almost everyone who works there is female.
And she already wants to run a mile because the only thing that any of them ever seem to talk about is their children or impending children.
Bullshit's the same everywhere.
Re:This just proves (Score:5, Insightful)
It's possible to be a day-job geek who never plays video games, doesn't own an iphone, and doesn't read xkcd, yet still thrive in high-tech.
Its also possible to be passionate about IT and not be into those things either. It is called being your own man.
I do agree with you about the tendencies of the IT culture.
I see it and get tired of it from time to time.
Dilbert? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's men who are dumb enough to tolerate the aspy-programmer types, the sneering arrogant IT guys, the mailing lists full of flaming personal attacks leveled by closet bullies empowered by semi-anonymity, the phallic-compensating gadget consumerists, constantly "helpful" types who manage to insult while trying to rescue, and the sexually inept who use pinup wallpaper and leer at any woman in eyeshot. Membership in (or at least tolerance of) a repellant boys' club is an almost-mandatory feature of our industry.
In a 20 year career as a software developer:
1. I haven't met any programmers suffering from Asperger's Syndrom (I assume this is what "aspy" means, correct me if I'm wrong)
2. I haven't known any "sneering arrogant IT guys". The IT guys I've met have been normal, helpful human beings.
3. I have seen some harsh emails, but not often and nothing like the venom you describe
4. I can't recall any "phallic compensation gadget consumerists", but perhaps I'm not looking hard enough...
5. I haven't met any "constantly helpful types who insult while trying to rescue"
6. I have seen some teenage male type usage of naked women pictures, but that's been quite rare. Do you think that teenage male types only exist in the tech industry?
Do you think that "boys clubs" are more prevalent in the tech industry than other industries? The problems that you cite probably exist in most companies to one degree or another.
Doctoring isn't life and death (Score:3, Insightful)
That's just the lie they repeat for our benefit, it doesn't matter to doctors if you live or die (malpractice insurance), and they don't care (not emotionally invested) because they couldn't do the job if they cared
Re:This just proves (Score:3, Insightful)
So yes. Women are in fact generally too smart for careers in computers. He nailed it.
Why do you assume the AC who wrote that comment is a man? Are you sexist?
Re:Sexist field (Score:3, Insightful)
You say:
And then you say:
It's like your standing on the edge of enlightenment, windmilling your arms to keep from falling over.
Re:Doctoring isn't life and death (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This just proves (Score:5, Insightful)
I fail to see how 'rapid ambulation' is unnecessarily complicated. I suppose he could replace 'any form of rapid ambulation' with 'running away' or 'rapid ambulation' with 'speed walking' but those do change the meaning somewhat.
At worst it's like using an int instead of a short. And I do believe slashdot qualifies as hanging out at the A/V club...I can't believe your original post was moderated insightful on a forum that I would think cherishes use of an extensive vocabulary. It was Funny though =)
Re:This just proves (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not necessary to use herbs, spices or condiments with food either. Have fun with your plain potato language.
Re:This just proves (Score:4, Insightful)
The biggest problem with your remark would be that IT doesn't HAVE to be "high pressure". If anything, it shouldn't be much of any pressure. Sadly, you have entirely too many people that haven't the foggiest idea whatsoever of what they're actually trying to manage doing the management roles in IT and it ends up being high pressure.
For example...
Do you think it sane or rational to have a four month release cycle and do no work that you know won't fit into that timeframe- or try to desperately wedge things that should be an 8-12 month process into that timeframe when you've no other choice?
IT has a LOT of that in there and it doesn't HAVE to be that way.
Re:This just proves (Score:2, Insightful)
IT isn't a place for women, but it's not a place for men either. It's a sinkhole that takes the best and brightest and turns them into bitter husks (if they don't run off screaming first).
IT careers are fundamentally broken. IT is not treated like a science. IT workers don't have unions to protect them like mechanics and doctors. IT gets the worst of everything. Most people can only immerse themselves in code and gadgetry for so long before they notice that their peers appear to be leading more enjoyable lives.
Yes this. I already see flaming in these comments, which is unfortunate. Although there are undoubtedly instances of gender discrimination, I don't think IT people are each other's enemies--management and their view of IT as a liability rather than a resource (quoting some other /.er) are our enemies. A misunderstanding or dismissal of what we do and the attitude towards IT which that engenders, that's what ruins what should be a line of work about as good as any other, maybe even better.
So, subtopic: what kinds of other jobs can IT skills/background be marshaled into?
Re:This just proves (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, it gets called out all right. The problem is that more often than not, if you call it out, they escort you out- it's often times a fine line between pointing out something as being insane and some middle or upper manager feeling you're being insubordinate.
If business would realise that QUALITY has more to do with listening to your people and doing what they tell you is right as it is any of their idiot processes then perhaps it might be a bit better. So long as they believe in the methodology du jour saving their collective asses and believe that process will save them (If you have a repeatable process, wouldn't making mistakes within the context of the same, make you just simply repeat the mistakes over and over again?). This will be a space where a substantive portion of the space will be dominated by insanity, waste, and mediocre quality results.
Re:Children? (Score:4, Insightful)
The fundamental issue here is that the needs of private industry are fundamentally opposed to family life. People are left choosing one over the other time and again; women simply get the worst of it. The simple truth is that employers hate children, and would much prefer their employees to remain single their entire lives. Unfortunately, if the workaholic culture and demographic wilting of Japan is any indication, employers can and probably will get that wish, and entire nations will atrophy in the long term for the sake of supposed gains in efficiency.
Right now, as things stand, working men and especially working women are being punished for having children, raising children and even being with their children. I wouldn't classify myself as a child person and especially not as a "family values" proponent, but I can still see why this system is wrong and why change is needed. And simply extending parental leave, paid or otherwise, is not the solution. Businesses need to be persuaded or forced to stop seeing employees with children as liabilities. The question is how this can be done.
Re:why? because.. (Score:5, Insightful)
That has nothing to do with sex. If you're constantly interrupting and talking over people, you're a rude asshole, and it's definitely not just “how men communicate.” It's perfectly possible for men to have good manners and follow appropriate turn-taking when having a conversation.
However, I will say that there are many assholes out there who have not mastered this basic form of courtesy, so I can see how you might get the impression that it's the norm. I've also known some chauvinists who would be more likely to talk over a woman than a man, so I can empathize with the grandparent poster.
Re:Children? (Score:5, Insightful)
And when a woman takes off for 2 to 3 months, PAID, it does hurt the perception of her in the workplace. I know, I've seen it. The guys bitch because of it, and since most of the employees are guys to begin with, it puts the woman on the outside looking in. And if a woman is 3 months pregnant, the boss doesn't want to put her in charge of a long term project because she will be gone for a few months and maybe not come back ever. I see that happen all the time, where the woman works until birth is close just to get the 3 months extra pay, knowing she is going to not come back. I can't blame her, even if it causes problems for work. Even when a boss is perfectly fair, he would be negligent if he didn't consider these facts.
The fact that men react negatively to a woman taking time off to have children is, in itself, a sign that there's something wrong with the culture you work in.
I work in the UK and have never seen that at any company I have worked for. No resentment, no difficulties, no problems. It has always been understood where I work that people grow up and sometimes want children. Women are biologically equipped to carry children, and so it benefits society to make allowances for women so they can have children.
Any culture which doesn't respect simple biological functions and make allowances for it is simply broken.
More proof (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sexist field (Score:3, Insightful)
The thing to observe is that many other professions with significant representation of women don't have the problems that IT does. In other words, the behaviours in IT that get singled out by women as the reason they stay away or leave the field don't exist or aren't nearly as bad in other professions--sales, for example, or medicine, or accounting. If it's true that "people are who they are", then IT wouldn't be different from other fields--they'd all show the same low rates of participation by women. That IT is different puts the lie to the idea that this is somehow "natural" behaviour. Other segments of society have discouraged the kind of sexism that's common in IT; why can't IT?
All of your handwaving about "people are who they are" really is just making excuses and protecting bad behaviour by claiming some bogus unchangeability about IT culture. Of course you can discourage it--lots of others have, and quite successfully.
Re:Sexist field (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not just women (Score:3, Insightful)
You seem to ignore your eyes and instead have some fairy tale view of reality that we are all basically the same. Sorry, most real computer nerds tend to be men, and they have been since they were little kids.
You're seeing the result of the socialization women received 20+ years ago. Men now have a leg up technically, and they are paid more because of this, not because of evil sexism.
Maybe things will change in a few generations, but I doubt it. Have you seen Bratz toys or the TV shows they still show little girls?
Re:This just proves (Score:5, Insightful)
Fucking Gods! The is the most sexists post I've seen in slashdot in ages! But its aimed at men so it ok right?
Women are not more intelligent than men, statistics prove it. Women simply have different options and opportunities.
And neurosceince also shows that on average they have different skills and different motivations. But people get upset when that's pointed out becuase they don't understand the "on average" bit.
Re:Women drop out of every field (Score:3, Insightful)
they are better nerds
Bullshit. Why do you think they're better nerds?
Re:This just proves (Score:3, Insightful)
Buying Microsoft is like receiving a burn.
It's fine at first, but give it a few moments and it will start to hurt. And it WILL hurt, and do so for a good long while. Even if you react appropriately, you're still likely to have a scar.
Re:Not just women (Score:1, Insightful)
Because the boss says, "sure take all the time you want, don't forget to clean out your desk". Even in a state with laws allowing/protecting maternity leave, it doesn't apply to men. Other oddities in the world of women: if a woman cries abuse, the man is guilty no matter what happened, or even if proved innocent in a court of law. If a woman is pregnant the father has no legal standing in anything, period. On and on, cry me a f***ing river. The fact is there are still occupations where women shouldn't be allowed.
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This just proves (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This just proves (Score:3, Insightful)
So it may be more to the point that it is easier to get a man to go do the stressful job and for them to do something else.
Bwah hahahahahaha!
Mothers and wives everywhere are laughing disgustedly at you.
Re:This just proves (Score:4, Insightful)
That's why you'll find more men doing jobs that are really unpleasant but well-paid (relative to their education level), such as mining, logging, or firefighting [snip]
I agree with your sentiment, but I disagree with your examples. Mining, logging, firefighting are all very satisfying careers. Sure, the work is hard, but the amount of political bullshit involved is fairly low. You know what your job is, you come in, work your shift, and then you leave. And with firefighting, you know that you're performing a vital service. I mean, that's one of the few professions that will have a non-trivial number of people calling you a hero.
For a much more comparable example, try finance or law. Same high pressure and pay. Same low level of satisfaction. And, unlike with mining, logging, firefighting, or even IT, a significant fraction of society considers you to be a net negative - a leech that makes his living off the labors of others.
Now, what's interesting is that a career in IT ought to fall into the low-risk personally-rewarding camp (the physical risks are minimal, and there's a lot of joy in building things), but instead falls into the higher-pay less-reward camp due to the way IT employees are treated.
The reason IT employees are treated the way they are is because the vast majority of companies do not make computers or software. For them, IT is a cost - something that must be maintained at a certain level in order to prevent the company from falling behind. So what happens is that IT resources are cut to the bone - and employees are placed under ever increasing pressure to be productive. Moreover, because IT work doesn't generally involve life threatening environments or machinery, there is no government regulation forcing the employer to slow down and maintain a modicum of standards regarding deadlines and work environments. IT work has the same standards as mining and logging and manufacturing did at the turn of the century, and consequently IT workers are as unhappy as miners, loggers, and assembly line workers of that era. However, the lack of physical danger in IT work (your fingers can't get sliced off from typing, for example) means that the chances of IT work being regulated anytime in the foreseeable future are slim to none.
This is going to sound sexist - but please read on (Score:3, Insightful)
But wait - Veterenarians are noticing something interesting: Males work very, very long hours - sometimes 7:00 AM to 9:00 PM and have a huge client base. Women, on the other hand, tend to work very short hours because they combine their careers with child-reasing. As a result, it can take 4-5 female to produce the same work as one male in the field. Also, inherently, salaries are much, much different.
So, rather than screaming sexist or gender inequality, let's look at how women have been able to have a life balance that is, possibly, better than men's.
The IT field is particularly nasty if you want to balance your home and work life. As so many of you know, tending a server farm or managing a transaction-intensive web site can mean hours and hours of work at any time of the day or night. It's not a wonder that women have seen the light about what amounts to a shit job (regardless of the pay).
Re:This just proves (Score:5, Insightful)
Seeking simplicity and ease of understanding is not anti-intellectualism.
If you need to use convoluted phrases to assert your intellect, then you're probably not someone most people would want to be acquainted with.
Re:This just proves (Score:3, Insightful)
The unpleasant side of mining and firefighting are the very high risks of respiratory problems as a result of doing those jobs. For logging, the risk is much more that of severe injuries. That's why they're considered unpleasant.
As far as why IT employees are treated poorly, while your answer is one explanation it doesn't explain the poor treatment of IT employees at technology companies such as Electronic Arts. I for one think that there's a real opportunity for unionization to help out (with union contracts being not so much about pay as working conditions), but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
Re:This just proves (Score:3, Insightful)
I for one think that there's a real opportunity for unionization to help out (with union contracts being not so much about pay as working conditions), but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
The problem is, there isn't any way to divorce pay from working conditions. In essence, the way the software industry works right now is that developers are paid for only about 75%-80% of the time worked. Their pay assumes an eight hour day, while their deadlines assume ten or twelve hour days. So any push towards having more reasonable deadlines would probably end up with management reducing pay in response.
The other issue is the sheer diversity of the field. With other professions (especially the "blue collar" ones) we can find characteristics of safe working environments and try to enshrine them in contracts or regulations. Such a thing is nigh impossible in a field like programming. Even in blue-collar work, emulating a pleasant and efficient work environment can be difficult. Just ask GM how long it took for them to get their assembly lines up to the quality standards set by Honda, et. al.
Re:Not much has changed (Score:4, Insightful)
I just find it irrational and paradoxical that in an industry that's supposed to be based on logic, there's so much sexism.
I admit to bias - I have two daughters, and I don't want them discriminated against; I'm sure any parent wants the best for their kids.
But it is pervasive - to the point that even many women buy into it rather than rock the boat, or worse, because they actually believe it. Conditioned into having lower expectations, like other groups. I don't want that for my kids.
Of course it then extends outwards to the customers as well. You get some guys who have to "show they're boss" when they're buying stuff, just to impress their wife or girlfriend. Or they treat the receptionist like crap, or a non-person, because "they're just the receptionist."
Or just as bad, they'll assume, when dealing with a woman, that it's just a stepping-stone to dealing with "the man in charge".
Suppliers in general aren't so bad - they've learned that if you crap on the receptionist, your messages get mislaid (and many employers are now smart enough to look at your treatment of others as indicative of whether you're a "good fit". Treat the cleaning staff like crap, you won't be asked back to bid).
But there's still a long way to go ... for both sexes.
Re:This just proves (Score:5, Insightful)
I chose this career to ENJOY it not to be treated like a McDonalds employee
Of course it's completely wrong to treat McDonalds or any other employees that way. The way our society just keeps referring to McDonalds in a way you have done is a sign of how sick our business culture is.
Re:Doctoring isn't life and death (Score:2, Insightful)
I am a doctor. I can't believe some moderator gave you a score of 3. What in the world is insightful about your hate?
For some reason, our society wants to bash and hate doctors. What did a doctor ever do to you to make you and others hate us so much? Yes we have malpractice insurance. But belief that because of insurance doctors don't care about your survival is pure logical fallacy. Doctors have malpractice insurance because they get sued. The majority of the time, those lawsuits are frivolous. A large part of the reason we pay for malpractice insurance is so that the insurance comapany's lawyers can deal with the numerous patients who sue for no good reason. For 100 lawsuits, only 1 is valid. And of that 1, the most of the time, it is for a potential complication that was previously disclosed. For some reason, the lay public does not seem to want to understand that.
Doctors do get personally invested. That is the problem. If there is one fact that can be stated to be true about doctors it is this: we are so stupidly invested emotionally, that we have allowed insurance companies to take over medicine and endured quietly while our patients vilify us.
Try to look at things from doctor's point of view before making sweeping statements.
I suspect you are a troll fishing for an emotional response, but I just can't leave this alone.
Your statement is the equivalent of: all priests are homosexual child abusers. Or perhaps this: teachers don't care if children learn or not (eventually they grow up and go away) and they are not emotionally invested because the couldn't do the job if they cared.
Give doctors a little love. We put up with an amazing amount of abuse from the government, private insurance, and our patients. One day you are going to wake up and find that your statement of hatred toward doctors actually has become the truth. Realize then that people like you were the straw that broke the camel's back and drove the good ones out of practice into a more comfortable career.
Re:Children? (Score:4, Insightful)
That's all good for Norway. I'm sure it must be a very nice place to live and work in.
In more capitalist societies, folks are lucky to find themselves still having a job after they have kids.
Re:This just proves (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This just proves (Score:3, Insightful)
gee I wonder what would happen if 90% of the US IT and high tech work force were unionized and decided to uh...go on strike.
Large growth in the contracting industries of several Asian countries.