Testing IT Professionals On Job Interviews? 1057
An anonymous reader writes "After having my university degrees, a couple of IT certifications, and over ten years of work experience in the industry, with 2-4 years of verifiable employment with each employer, working with a wide range of technologies, is it reasonable to ask me to take some test on a job interview? The same companies don't ask other professionals (lawyer, accountant, sales, HR, etc.) to submit to any kind of in-house tests when they are hired. Why are IT professionals treated differently and in such a paternalistic way? More importantly, why do IT professionals accept being treated less favorably than members of other professions? Should IT professionals start to refuse to be treated as not real professionals?"
IT Employment Tests (Score:2, Informative)
Here are some of the reasons you might be tested and another person might not be:
1. A business school graduate is part of a comparatively unchanging field, one in which a past performance record is likely to be repeated in a new job.
2. A lawyer is normally a member of a professional guild (the local bar association), and law is also a relatively unchanging field.
3. Technical/computer work is in rapid flux, today's marketable skills are not yesterday's or tomorrow's, also because of its esoteric nature it's likely that no one in the business will be able to interview you in any meaningful way. A test relieves the personnel department of any direct evaluation responsibilities.
But ... The more IT professionals there are in a particular business, the less likely that you will be treated like an alien insect. Do you suppose Google makes you submit to a boilerplate written exam? They do scout for talent using interesting published questions, but that is a different strategy with a different purpose.
Re:Measurability (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Measurability (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Measurability (Score:3, Informative)
Another factor is that having a degree or certification in IT, or ven ten years of job experience, doesn't actually mean that you know anything. There is no easy way to judge an IT job candidate on paper. Tests are a poor method also though - better to look at a portfolio and ask the right questions about the work in the portfolio.
Re:Possibly to weed out the fakers? (Score:3, Informative)
Are you sure a bout that? Seems to me you are just presenting another exam to them, which by your own definition, they know how to handle.
Not quite. With the exams, they have resources available to give them the answers (i.e. textbooks, MCSE Cram's etc), but with a test within the interview, they won't necessarily know the answer until they see the test.
The tests I use are more real world as they are usually based on a problem I have had within the previous couple of weeks, not something they would get from a text book but something they would know from experience.
Re:Blame it on the idiots who can sell themselves (Score:5, Informative)
And it is so hard for your references to know if you're really any good or not because unless you're in a large technical group a lot of them wouldn't really know what it is that you actually do, or how to tell if you do it well.
Most companies won't provide a reference other than "Person X worked for us from (date) to (date)." It's just too easy to say something which could be misconstrued as being negative and used to sue the company which issued the reference.
because as nerds and geeks we are used to being (Score:2, Informative)
...bullied from an early age in elementary and high school, that it seems normal in adult life. We even rationalize it and justify it.
Why else acquiesce to being treated differently under wage and hour laws, being segregated from the rest of the companies - often in a separate building with a substandard environment.
Being socially ostracized, over-worked, underpaid is just what we have come to expect.
Re:Sheesh (Score:5, Informative)
You mean like with the bar exam, cpa exam, the useless PMP exam, certified professional engineer, etc.
Other professions are tested, but it is before the job interview.
Re:Blame it on the idiots who can sell themselves (Score:3, Informative)
Agreed.
Also, the questioner is wrong that other fields don't test. In any good restaurant, for example, a new cook is asked to prepare something as part of the interview process (that's not to say anything for the exec chef who is usually partnered with the owner(s) but in the case when he/she isn't it would be unheard of for the owner to hire the chef without tasting the whole menu that will be served).
Fire fighters need to take physical tests to ensure that they're in appropriate physical shape. I'm pretty sure the same is true of police officers.
To put it in other words, if it can be tested it will be. And should be.
Tests help weed people out (Score:4, Informative)
IT field is so wide and diverse with many people coming to it's ranks without any "true" background. I have a degree in Textiles. I manage and maintain a wide assortment of applications, servers, databases, email systems etc. I actually laughed at a lady on the phone a long time ago during an interview, who said that they were only looking for MCSE's. When I laughed she seemed so surprised and asked me why?
I told her "You do understand that you can get one of those in 2 weeks offline right now right?". People have become so dependent on "certifications" that they don't actually test those individuals skills. I don't limit it to IT either. The same thing applies to MBA's. I wound up being involved in a round table interview (2+ applicants at the same time) and everyone but me had a certification. When asked what the difference between mirroring and clustering in databases was one of the answers was (I joke you not) something oracle can only do.
Additionally, I find that now, most companies don't truly involve their IT groups in the hiring process. They ask for "specs" for a job and then try to match them up. This doesn't work in reality. It might with a secretary, or blockbuster video clerk... but not in IT.
IT skills are quantifiable. There's no "bullshit" answer. There are several different levels of gray but if you ask a programmer what Model View Controller or what a framework is... there's no bs answer that isn't wrong.
When I create questions for a prospective employee I'm not trying to ramrod them. I ask only questions that I believe they should know 100%. For example, a ColdFusion programmer position is about to be placed here are some of the questions I plan to ask. I don't necessarily believe they need to know how to do all of them, but they MUST know what they are.
This position will be updating a slew of applications written in ColdFusion 5 and fixing about 30 databases that were converted from Access to MSSQL and 99% of the fields are NVARCHAR.
1) What is SQL injection and what built in features of coldfusion protect applications from it? .cfm and a .cfc? ...
2) Write an inner join query?
3) Whats the difference between a
4) What is an SVN repository?
5) What is the datatype NVARCHAR used for?
6)
You get the idea. However, my reasoning for asking these questions isn't just for the answers!
1) How well did they answer the questions? Enunciation, quickness to respond, accuracy in describing solutions
2) What is their personality like when pressured?
3) When they don't know an answer how do they respond. This is a big one for me. I expect you to say that you don't know. Bonus points for you writing it down and emailing me the answer later. This lets me know you didn't forget, and that you are trying to improve yourself.
A lot of times I'll throw in a question I KNOW they shouldn't know just to trip them up. I want to see how people react under pressure. We have 125 employees all depending on these applications for our business functions. If something screws up I need them to be quick, calm and attentive to the problem. Imagine this on a much larger scale, like 10,000, or 100,000. Businesses need to depend on these employees.
So, tests are necessary and frankly I'd like to see them in more positions.
Re:Interview question - universal answer!! (Score:4, Informative)
Script started on Mon Sep 15 07:59:50 2008
./test
bash-3.2$ cat test.c
#include <stdio.h>
int main(void) {
int i = 0;
i = i++;
printf("i = %d\n\n", i);
return 0;
}
bash-3.2$ gcc test.c -o test
bash-3.2$
i = 1
bash-3.2$ exit
exit
Script done on Mon Sep 15 08:00:04 2008
Re:No, it is not reasonable. (Score:5, Informative)
Surely being given an opportunity to demonstrate one's skill/flair isn't disrespectful?
It depends on how it's done.
Exactly. I'm in the camp that says some sort of programming test is fair for any level. If you're really a "Senior software engineer" with "excellent $LANGUAGE skills" then writing something like fizzbuzz will only take you two minutes, right? The number of people I've seen come to an interview making that sort of claim who could not code fizzbuzz is scary. Perhaps unsurprisingly, my tolerance for taking this sort of test myself increased significantly when I crossed from being an experienced developer who just found them patronising to having the kind of role that also involves sitting on the other side of the table from time to time and seeing what some of the other candidates are like.
On the other hand, I rather doubt I'll ever be working for the kind of place that has a whole-day interview process that consists of solving an endless series of trivial programming problems, followed by a load of "Have you seen this one before?" questions like the 1/2/5/10 problem. These tests are only useful as a block for the low end prankster, not as a way of gauging how good someone competent really is. After the first couple, if it seems like there are going to be more, I will take control of the interview and, usually, end it shortly thereafter.
This is a valuable reminder that interviewing is a two-way process, and that those applying for higher positions with more responsibility should be entitled to ask "difficult" questions that any competent employer should have no difficulty answering, too. Just as a significant proportion of interviewees are a joke, so are a significant proportion of interviewers/employers. These days, I'll basically let a prospective employer run the first interview, but if I'm called back for a second interview so I know they are serious, I will ask to see a sample of their production code and a sample of their development documentation, I'll ask straight questions about their software development process, company culture and working conditions, and if I'm still ambivalent perhaps I'll ask to speak privately with a current employee who is doing a similar job to the one I'm applying for.
Re:If doctors were that bad, it would be manslaugh (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Blame it on the idiots who can sell themselves (Score:5, Informative)
I have used "effect" as both a noun and a verb for the majority of my life, in both the written and spoken word.
"to effect" is a verb. The only problem is that it is synonymous to "to cause", and not to "to impact".
"The effects of an earthquake can effect large numbers of people."
Which, when replacing "to effect" with its synonym, becomes:
"The effects of an earthquake can cause large numbers of people."
Yes, I assume that after an earthquake, there's not much else to do until the electricity comes back on.
The "correct" form however, offers no justification for itself other than its own inertia.
The "correct" form offers the justification that it has a completely different meaning than the incorrect one. That should be sufficient.
Re:Interview question - universal answer!! (Score:5, Informative)
Why not get the compiler to do the work for you:
$ gcc -o test -Wall -W -ansi -pedantic test.c
test.c: In function `main':
test.c:5: warning: operation on `i' may be undefined
$
Lo and behold. It's undefined behaviour.
$
i = 0
$
And look. I don't get the same results as you. (Probably depends on the precise version of gcc and also maybe the optimizations selected.)
Tim.
Re:No, it is not reasonable. (Score:3, Informative)
The point of Fizzbuzz is that it is not hard. It's a litmus test. Anyone who fails to answer in five minutes (or however long you're willing to wait) should be given a nice handshake and a "don't call us, we'll call you".
I repeat, it's not to sort good from great, it's sort useless from useful. Think of it as the first pass in the company's own bucket-sort. Except if you fail, they put you in the trash bucket.
Re:No, it is not reasonable. (Score:3, Informative)
So wait, you are saying that MCSE and CCNE certifications have no merit? The test facilities are run independently by a recognized organization. Why did we spend all that time and money and study so hard? Have you ever taken one of the test?
They are vendor specific tests and not reflective of a field as a whole -- it's like toyota certification vs. being ASE certified, or knowing how to use a specific defibrillator works vs. understanding what's actually happening to the patient.
Have I taken on of those tests? Nope. I've looked at them and decided that it held no value for me and that it's not respected where I'd want to work (plus, I work with F/OSS so there's little incentive for a MS cert for me)... but I'll tell you this -- I've had to interact with plenty of MCSE cert holding people over the last 10 years and on average, none of them are people I'd want to work with ever again. There are a rare few who impress, but they'd impress without the that cert because it's by and large knowledge well beyond what that certification requires that has really impressed me. Where do they get that? Experience, for the most part.
And that's just the thing, in all the fields out there with certs that really mean anything, you can't get the cert without a whole bunch of experience... (though much of the time that experience is gained in school settings, as it is in medical or law school, for example). In IT, most certs can be had with a bit of time spent in front of books memorizing stuff for that test.
Re:No, it is not reasonable. (Score:3, Informative)
Yep, this is how test SHOULD be.
We looked for a new junior admin, and one "test" we gave was an application not starting up, but giving a database error message. Which was pretty easily solvable by reading the documentation for the application and some light googling.
Which tested the basic necessity for IT: Think about a problem you have never seen before and try to find a solution. That test weeded out the ~75% of "Uuhhh.. sorry, I have never worked with that program before" applicants who would have needed hand-holding for years to come, even though they managed to get a long list of qualifications somehow.