Apple QuickTime DRM Disables Video Editing Apps

An anonymous reader writes "According to numerous posts on Apple's discussion forums (several threads of which have been deleted by Apple), as well as a number of popular video editing blogs, Apple's recent QT 7.4 update does more than just enable iTunes video rentals — it also disables Adobe's professional After Effects video editing software. Attempting to render video files after the update results in a DRM permissions error. Unfortunately, it is not possible to roll back to a previous version of QT without doing a full OSX reinstall. Previous QT updates have also been known to have severe issues with pro video editing apps."

The answer is quite simple actually:

[Qbertino]

Don't use Quicktime.

As always

[Ohreally_factor]

Never upgrade a production box without first upgrading on a test system. And NEVER NEVER upgrade mid project. If you're an individual and not a post production facility, test the upgrade on a separate partition or physical volume.

Or wait until everyone else gets the kinks worked out.

This is all common sense, and it's really not that hard. But you'd be surprised at the number of otherwise intelligent people that do stupid shit like upgrading a key component in the middle of a project. And if you absolutely must, do it on a cloned volume with backed up data.

QT isn't (just) a media player

[RJabelman]

Quicktime is in fact Mac OS's Audio and Video subsystem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quicktime#QuickTime_framework [wikipedia.org]

It's much more likely that updates to the underlying API are what's breaking After Effects etc, than updates to the media player bit.

KDawson hates Apple

[stewbacca]

The article states this is in QT 7.4. My computer just popped up with the 7.6 update. Does anyone care to investigate why the two quick updates, or should we just leave this paranoid story on here because it's cool to rip on Apple?

Re:The answer is quite simple actually:

[Anonymous Coward]

He's modded as Troll because QuickTime is the media layer foundation of video editing apps on OS X. As much as you might despise the QuickTime Player application (and with good reason), there's a whole lot more to QuickTime than just that. Simply "not using" it isn't an option.

Apple does this all the time

[Stele]

Apple is notorious for stuff like this. They have all sorts of shared components (like QuickTime, FxPlug, etc) that they update independently from each other. I develop for Final Cut Pro and Motion, and the last time I installed a beta for them, they installed a component which broke QuickTime. Now I can't launch the QuickTime player, iTunes, iMovie, or any other app that relies on certain QuickTime codecs, without them crashing immediately. Recent updates to QuickTime haven't fixed the problem either. And of course you can't uninstall anything without reinstalling the OS. Look around - there are plenty of people asking for the "Quicktime deinstaller" which does exist but has its own problems.

Between stuff like this and having to essentially port my code every time they release a new version of OS X, and the constant switching between processor architectures, APIs, UI design requirements, etc. all I can say is it REALLY sucks being a Mac developer.

It is possible to roll back

[blootsvoets]

Full discussion on http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1342677&start=30&tstart=0 [apple.com], which makes the summary quite lame. The fact that subtitles also broke with QT 7.4 does say something though..

Re:Let me get this straight..

[0100010001010011]

Actually. Yes you can. It's not as simple as a quick "Roll Back this install" but by no means is it as impossible to revert as some programs in XP.

Step 1: Download 7.3.1 for what ever version of OSX you're using. http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/ [apple.com]
Step 2: Copy the installer package to the desktop.
Step 3: Right click and "Show Package Contents", open "Contents"
Step 4: Open "QuickTime_Leopard.dist" in a text editor (Not sure what it is called in other versions.
Step 5: Scroll down to "newerQuickTimePresent()" (All Apple pre and postflight scripts are just that, scripts. You can write them in bash, perl, ruby, python, php, etc.)
Step 6: Change "return false" to "return true". Or Comment it out, etc
Step 7: Install.

Re:As always

[morgan_greywolf]

You miss the point. Updating quicktime should *not* break adobe.

You don't understand software development, do you? Software, especially system software like QuickTime, is extremely complex to develop. A developer has to test their software updates against various popular configurations at the very least, and at best, you can test against several common configurations. You can't test every possible edge case -- there are just too many permutations. You'd never release.

After Effects is a professional video editing package from Adobe. Probably not even close to a majority of Apple's userbase is likely to have it on their machines. You can't expect a developer or even Apple to test against every package from every software house that develops for their platform. It would be quite impossible.

Your right that updating QuickTime shouldn't break other apps, but the posters' point was that since you can't expect Apple to test against every possible edge case, you have to ensure that when you update system-level software like QuickTime that you test those updates in your particular configuration before deploying. Especially on a production box (read: machine you use to make money.)

BTW--A great tool do that with is virtualization. Create a VM of your install and you can test new updates in the VM without harming anything. Just make a copy of the virtual disk. If it doesn't work, you restore from your backup with a simple copy. No muss, no fuss. Using a VM doesn't do well with some hardware-dependent apps, but at least you can test software interactions.

Re:As always

[Shadow-isoHunt]

Unless there is a reason to update. Quicktime has a horrible record of security. As of right now, see CVE-2008-0036, CVE-2008-0033, and CVE-2008-0032.

Re:The answer is quite simple actually:

[arth1]

I'll never buy another Sony product again. Rootkits, DRM, Blu-Ray, MinDisc, EVIL.

Oh, wait, this is Apple. Thats cool then, I like them.

No, you're more correct than you think. Sony uses Quicktime for quite a few of their products, and it has bit customers hard. As an example, Sony CLIE Multimedia PDAs require Quicktime no newer than 6.5.2 to be installed on the desktop in order to convert movies that can be viewed on the CLIE. However, Sony PSP (Playstation Portable) requires Quicktime 7 or newer to be installed on the desktop.
Due to Apple's infinite wisdom, Quicktime is neither forwards nor backwards compatible with itself, and neither can you have both installed on the same OS. In other words, you can't convert movies that work on both devices without having two machines, dual boot or virtualization software -- in other words, more than one Windows license.

And if you install iTunes, it will silently replace Quicktime with a newer version, without even giving you an option. Which breaks video conversion with Sony Image Converter. Sony is aware of it, but from what I've heard, Apple demands that Sony ponies up extra licensing fees for all existing devices if Sony are to support the newer format produced by the Quicktime codec, and refuses to provide backwards compatibility (i.e. letting the newer encoder produce movies playable with the old decoder). That's quite unreasonable, but not unexpected from Apple.
Lock-in and paying extra for upgrades is S.O.P. for Apple. Why do people like them again?

It's not vendor lockin

[alexhmit01]

Quicktime is Apple's underlying media subsystem. It's not bolted on. The Quicktime Player is bolted on to wrap the functions and play videos. The Quicktime Pro program that they sell enables editing. There is no lock-in, because anyone can provide a media layer, and anyone can access Quicktime. Even Realbasic Apps can bundle Quicktime and do whatever they want. You could write your own media player with it's own DRM and send content to Quicktime (although hackers would grab the unencrypted layer inside of Quicktime).

There should be a way to roll-back the Quicktime update, because the Package should limit changes to the Quicktime Framework and Quicktime Player apps, but I don't know that there isn't Quicktime code everywhere. It should still exist, but it's not a media player, and it's not vendor lockin.

MS gets nailed for Vendor lock-in for bundling not core programs and not letting them be removed. On a Mac, if I don't want Safari, Quicktime Player, iTunes, etc., I just drag the Application to the trash and I never see it again. I still have the underlying OS Components of WebKit (I think that it's an OS Level Framework now) and Quicktime, but I don't have the applications. Microsoft REFUSED to allow the deletion of IE/WMP, and when forced by the courts to provide a version without them, removed the underlying OS components to break Windows.

That's why MS's bundling behavior was problematic, and Apples not so much. Apple lets you remove applications you want without hosing the OS. MS refused to let you remove the application without removing the OS Components, and you NEED media capability even if you don't want WMP, and you NEED the HTML component, because many applications use it once you make it a standard OS Component.

Re:That's why we don't use Quicktime...

[Ohreally_factor]

Just to clarify: It's not the quicktime player that is the issue, it's the quicktime subsystem that is integral to AfterEffects and other pro video applications. Substituting VLC will not solve this. The issue really is much more serious. Bad fuck up on Apple's part. However, I don't think this is really going to bother most video professionals, because they will have waited to upgrade (to see what potential problems might crop up), or they're testing on non-production boxes.

Re:Then Tell Apple to break it out..

[Ohreally_factor]

You're missing the point. There's this thing called the Quicktime Player. That's not at issue here.

What is at issue is this other thing called Quicktime. It's a technology that provides video services for OS X and applications. Applications such as AfterEffects, Final Cut Pro, etc. and iTunes. A change in this subsystem to support a new feature in iTunes has fucked up support for AfterEffects. Apple fucked up, no doubt about it. But the sky isn't falling and this is not even comparable to MS embedding a browser in their OS to kill Netscape. Not even close.

Re:What has this got to do with DRM?

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, 60 seconds reading the referenced link in the articles would show that it is NOT a permissions problem that can be fixed with CHMOD. The files in question will open fine with the iTunes player but not with QT.
I see the Apple happy moderators choose the more convenient and not the real "insightful" route of modding you up in defense of Apple instead of actually reading about the problem. Moderator thinking, "Oh this person must be right, there is no way Apple could have messed this up."

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1342677&start=30&tstart=0 [apple.com]

Apple doesn't always remove posts

[Shawn Parr]

Secondly, I've never been happy with the way Apple seem to always deny issues by removing forum posts

But Apple doesn't always remove negative posts. Here is a huge thread on some major bugs in their Airport Extreme Base Station [apple.com], with over 20,000 views and 300+ replies. It has been around for a few months now.

People like to jump on Apple for removing posts, however their forum has some pretty clear rules on what is considered acceptable and what isn't. Usually deleted threads/posts are done so for a reason. If that person, or another, re-wrote the post to follow the guidelines it would very likely stay. Yes, Apple's moderators are a bit more - zealous - than on other forums, but they are not some weird underground conspiracy group, they are just trying to keep the forums focused and friendly.

A similar thing happened with AE 5 and Tiger

[StreetStealth]

I learned this lesson well in 2005 when I gleefully preordered and upgraded to Tiger only to find out that After Effects 5's non-standard use of Quicktime APIs resulted in highly unstable audio with the new version of QT that came with the OS. Just scrubbing video back and forth inside the app would produce Quicktime errors, and the only way to get a complete render was to render without audio and add the soundtrack in afterward.

I don't trust Adobe or Apple to be in sync on this stuff.

Re:Does this suprise anyone?

[MacColossus]

Looks like most of the issues are fixed by this released today. http://www.adobe.com/support/documentation/en/aftereffects/Adobe_After_Effects_CS3_8_0_2_Read_Me.pdf [adobe.com]

Re:It's not vendor lockin

[SkipRosebaugh]

No, Apple allows you to uninstall the application (dragging the app into the trash).

downgrading, or cross-grading other apps

[howlatthemoon]

There is a straight forward way to downgrade without OS reinstall. Google "downgrade quicktime 7.4 to 7.3" and you will find the instructions. It is not too difficult. You need the installer file and Pacifist. Not the most elegant solution, but which quicker than OS reinstall. This might be in other comments as well, so sorry if this is repetitive. Despite the uproar, I really wonder what the impact is? During the period when Abobe was not updating video apps for the Mac, we switched to Combustion and Motion for our motion graphics work. When Adobe came back to the market and our CS3 suite came with the video apps, we installed them, but no one in my shop uses them anymore. If you want to gripe, the recent FCP upgrade that changed file formats so projects were not backwards compatible was a much bigger headache, and it was one line buried in the changes document, whereas it should have been a prominent point at the top, and I would have heartily endorsed the use of the blink tag for this. One other question, the summary states that video apps are involved, but AE is the only one I have heard about, which other applications are affected?

Time Machine?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, it is not possible to roll back to a previous version of QT without doing a full OSX reinstall.

Apparently I have been misinformed about Time Machine [wikipedia.org]'s capabilities. One would normally assume it would be perfect for this. Not the case? Someone who understands the situation, should update the Limitations section of the Wikipedia page, I guess. Inability to recover a damaged system would be a pretty serious problem, if it's true.

Re:Informative? NOT

[NMerriam]

The choice is up to the user to set it the way they want it to work. There is no such thing as a MS update that automatically installs

Some people have very short memories [technet.com].

The 8.0.2 Patch Doesn't Work

[GaryPatterson]

Sorry for replying to my own post, but I've since found out that this patch does not correct the QuickTime bug, making my parent post invalid.

Looks more like an Apple screw-up than anything else right now.

Re:As always

[am 2k]

It's a spaghetti mess in there, one of the worst APIs ever known to man. Apple have to re-write it from scratch to fix it, and the likelihood of that is as slim as the likelihood of more disasters like this happening is large.

Actually, they have done exactly what you suggest for Leopard, it's called QTKit [apple.com]. According to Apple, the old API is deprecated and all developers should use the new one on Mac OS X 10.5+.

Re:The answer is quite simple actually:

[Ilgaz]

He's modded as Troll because QuickTime is the media layer foundation of video editing apps on OS X. As much as you might despise the QuickTime Player application (and with good reason), there's a whole lot more to QuickTime than just that. Simply "not using" it isn't an option.

Not only OS X, Quicktime Framework is layer of near all serious applications including Adobe/AVID functionality. Also Cameras/Video cams having mpeg4/h264 (e.g. HD consumer level) needs Quicktime to work fine with Windows as MSFT is still fantasizing about their ideal "everyone is using WMV/AVI and we are giving shit to OS X/Linux" World which basically FAILED.