Microsoft Worried OEM 'Craplets' Will Harm Vista 527
elsilver writes "An article at the CBC indicates that Microsoft is worried that the assorted crap most OEM companies load onto a new machine may affect users' opinion of Vista. An unnamed executive is concerned that the user will conclude the instability of the non-MS-certified applications is Vista's fault. Is this a serious concern, or is MS trying to bully OEMs into only including Vista-certified apps? As for the OEMs, one "removed older DVD-writing software they found was incompatible and replaced it with Vista's own software." — do they get points for realizing it was both buggy AND redundant?"
It IS Vista's fault (Score:5, Insightful)
Craplets you say? (Score:2, Insightful)
Mmmmmm (Score:1, Insightful)
good and evil (Score:5, Insightful)
Evil: This is about as immune to abuse as a government controlled press.
finally! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:My guess (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:It IS Vista's fault (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a legit concern... although I'd say that's part of rolling out any new piece of software that other software is dependent on, so they just need to deal with it.
Re:It IS Vista's fault (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Craplets you say? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It IS Vista's fault (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Mmmmmm (Score:3, Insightful)
1) power on and see if hardware and drivers all work
2) copy drivers off
3) format the partition and install just windows and the apps you actually want
Since Internet Explorer isn't a trial version or a light version (and IE 7 is much better than IE 6 although my primary browser even in Vista is FF2 - almost exclusively because of adblock).
Re:My guess (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually it takes only 1 application that you use frequently that sucks and your overall feeling of the OS is down. Just take an example, how often have you heard "linux sucks because I XXX does not work".
Same happen in Windows. Buy a new laptop and see it painfully load 35 icons in the systray, replace the default association of JPG file to another crapware that display a 30 seconds modal popup dialog that says the viewer you are using is shareware and open IE on the HowTo buy page. The feeling of the user will be: Vista sucks, and I paid 2000$ and my machine is slow like a dog because of Vista. Natural feeling.
The same feeling that people in Europe that have been provided with the XP-E edition ( no media player ) think that XP is shit because it cannot read a stupid AVI file.
Re:Understandable (Score:5, Insightful)
I like the Apple hardware products and the OSX, but to say that Apple doesn't load their new laptops with crapware and sleazeware would be disingenuous. If I buy a $3K MacBook Pro, should I expect to get a popup asking if I want to upgrade my trial copy of QuickTime? I enjoy the iLife suite of software, but I didn't have much of a choice to buy the laptop without it. I don't think the trial edition of OpenBase or the inclusion of OmniOutliner or ComicChat can really be considered a "blank slate."
The only thing in Apple's favor here (and it's a big point in their favor) is that it's absolutely and amazingly trivial to wipe the slate clean myself: drag unwanted items to trashcan, Empty Trash. I am still annoyed that a preinstalled QuickTime on a flagship hardware image is nagware. Hello, the 70s called and want their nags back. If the alternatives like VLC and Mplayer would really integrate as a replacement for QuickTime, I'd probably use them instead.
It won't work - Drivers need the OEM tweaks (Score:2, Insightful)
Sorry, that simply won't work. On many OEM laptops (many Sony, some Dell, some HP) you have components that simply won't work right with the default Windows drivers. The truth is that the OEMs actually do quite a bit of work digging up exact working versions of drivers; and debugging the dependances between them; and going back to the HW and SW vendors to resolve problems. I'd go so far as to say that you'd have a better chance of stock Ubuntu drivers working on your laptop than stock Windows drivers.
(yes, I know some of you will tell me you installed Win2K at work and it just worked - the business laptops without bleeding edge components seem to be more standardized - but try forcing a clean install on some multimedia laptop and I bet you go back to the OEM-reinstall-with-the-crap or you go to Ubuntu)
Observations (Score:5, Insightful)
It's also funny that volunteer projects like Debian and Gentoo seem to have no problem making a great distribution out of widely scattered and disorganized software, whereas the commercial vendors who ship customized versions of Windows seem to be universally succeeding only in making Windows crappier to the point that you really don't want to use the customized version.
I guess that Microsoft middle road between providing just the bare bones like Linux and the FSF do on one hand, and providing a complete package, like Apple does, on the other hand, really isn't working well.
Re:Craplets? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It IS Vista's fault (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It isn't Vista's fault (Score:3, Insightful)
cat
So, is linux buggy?
Something from userland? Here it is:
int main()
{
while(1) {
fork();
}
}
They should ban startup apps from the registry (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
you get what you pay for. (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's pick on Dell, since they're what I'm most familiar with in my professional dealings:
Part of the reason many of their machines, -especially- the Dell Inspiron laptops, are so cheap is because the cost of the machine is being heavily subsidised by 3rd-party product placements. They also outsource technical support for consumer-level hardware to second-rate call facilities in India that don't have the capability to escalate problems to technicians in the United States.
If you buy a Dell Precision laptop, you'll get the proper media and you won't be subject to piles of shovelware. Yes, it's somewhat more expensive, but you get treated much better. The build quality of the Precision line is miles better, to boot; it's more likely to last the rigours of four, five years of use.
Always remember: You get what you pay for.
Mod parent up! (Score:5, Insightful)
That's the best description of those craptacular add-ons from OEM suppliers I've seen yet. Circusware, hehe. I remember the first time installing a retail copy of Windows on a home built PC. Startling in how clean it was. No trial anti-virus or AOL logos (okay, it was a while ago).
I thought it was interesting that Michael Dell asked how much people would pay to get a clean copy of the OS without all the bundled crapware. You can read it in this article: Zdnet blog [zdnet.com]
I would've asked how much it was worth to him to get me to stop building my own PC's and buy another Dell? The arrogance of the position that I would have to pay extra to get rid of crap I didn't want in the first place really chaps my undies. Screw you, Mikey. You can take your cheap ass hardware and OEM circusware, along with your call center techs who don't speak English as a native language, and stick it all right up your ass. Don't act like you have a right to my business. If you want my money, earn it you arrogant bitch.
Re:It IS Vista's fault (Score:3, Insightful)
Lol (Score:4, Insightful)
*XP is released, Dell sells a billion computers*
Customers: Why the hell won't your computer allow me to edit my pictures, and why do I have a virus?
Tech Support: Well you need to install this third party software and...
Customers: AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's too hard!!!!!!!!!!!! Do it for me!!!!!!!!!!!
System Builders: OK, it's all installed.
Customers: Why the hell is my computer so slow?
Tech Support: Well you said that you wanted us to install this software for you and...
Customers: AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Make my computer faster!!!!!!!!!!!
System Builders: OK, it's a bare build again.
*Vista is released*
Customers: Why the hell won't your computer allow me to edit my pictures and why do I have a virus?
Re:Mmmmmm (Score:3, Insightful)
A.Any product considered Spyware (the definition microsoft uses when they generate the MS anti-spyware lists would be a good place to start)
B.Anything that is time limited,feature limited etc and requires extra purchases to unlock functionality that would be available if you bought the program from a store. (so WOW is ok because the subscription money has to be paid even for a store bought copy)
or C.Anything that is a "demo", "lite", "trial" etc version or is otherwise limited compared to what you would get if you bought the same software in the shops.
That would stop the OEMs from installing most of the nasty crapware whilst still allowing them to install software like Firefox or other benificial software. They can even install full versions of anything they like.
Best advice: re-install the OS (Score:3, Insightful)
For corporate environments, Dell, HP (etc.) will pre-load a specified image with the corporate setup. Alternative is to use ghost or similar to build your machines.
The manufacturers get a couple of dollars for each crapware loaded (does any one know the real amount?) On Dells, the Optiplex (business line) has less crap than the Dimension (consumer), but they've started putting crapware on the Otiplexes. A recent machine came with Google desktop & search pre-installed, a search URL redirector (which was a pain to remove) and various manufacturer's links.
Just reformat the thing, then you know you have a clean install. (It takes about 20 minutes to install XP, and then about 140 MB of downloads & countless reboots to bring it up to date.
Equally annoying, why do the pre-load a 6 month old version of the OS>
Re:Craplets? (Score:5, Insightful)
Can I see all the crap and bloat of OEM-installed apps (all for the Benjamins, of course) tainting a person's view of the OS (and even the "Dell"/other brand?) - abso-freikin-lootly.
Don't add the Crap to begin with (Score:3, Insightful)
The bigger problem comes with the computers I bought that only had those "Recovery" disks instead of actual Windows installation disks. The last time I dealt with one of those I actually went out and bought a copy of Windows (on top of the one that came with the system) and installed from the copy I purchased. I complained of course (it was Dell) but they didn't seem to care and wouldn't consider sending me Windows disks even though I'd paid for a Windows license. That was the last Dell I bought.
That was just one of the reasons that I know only buy computers from companies that include full versions of Windows. Or better, no OS at all.
Since Microsoft has all the power in this equation, I blame them for not putting more pressure on their "partners" to do the right thing.
Let me get this straight (Score:2, Insightful)
I mean, now and then some company sues Microsoft due to Windows coming with a built-in software (media player, browser, whatever), with said company maintaining that this doesn't allows manufacturers to replace them, what blocks competition etc. etc. etc. And slashdotters are usually happy when that happens. Now, however, when manufacturers do include "competition", in the way of these 3rd party addons, some of which are actually alternative browsers (even if was crappy and used MSHTML core, AOL still was an alternative browser), then suddenly manufacturers being able to add 3rd party software isn't good anymore.
Please note: wishing that Windows came with Firefox, Opera, Thunderbird and OpenOffice pre-installed requires you first accepting the idea that manufacturer including 3rd party applications is in and of itself a good thing. What doesn't precludes you from despising poor choices, of course.
I suggest you make your mind. Either manufacturers including competition is good, or it isn't. You cannot have it both ways.
Re:Craplets? (Score:3, Insightful)
True, but notice the wording of the entry: it says "A worthless applet, esp. a Java widget. Last time that I checked "esp." means "especially". So, yes, it was mostly used for what you describe but it doesn't need to be. Any applet that is crap can apply. Ever had a Control Panel Applet that was badly behaved? Like those installed along with Creative Drivers? That are crapplets too, even though they are not written in Java.
1. Buy box (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Buy box.
2. Reformat drive.
3. Install OS clean from media without all the crap, or use an existing corporate image.
But the idea of blaming third-party products for Vista's perception problems is the clumsiest FUD to come out of Microsoft's spin-doctor department in years. They have bugs that log to system files in WinXP that haven't been fixed for THREE YEARS or longer, so I don't buy the "it's the driver" excuses any more.
Business vs. Home (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It IS Vista's fault (Score:3, Insightful)
Sometimes, OEMs are installing this extra software because Microsoft has done such a crappy job of building in the necessary functionality. They focus on forcing everyone to use the same media player, but then neglect to include DVD playback. They include CD burning, but don't provide the functionality to create/burn ISO images. Therefore, in order to have a functional computer, you suddenly need extra crapware to fill in the gaps, where Microsoft didn't see a market that they could exploit. And of course the programs that fill in the gaps are crappy-- no decent company would invest a lot of money in developing solutions for these little gaps, given that Microsoft might very well decide they want that market, and it'd be trivial for Microsoft to drive them out.
Ultimately, Microsoft created this situation with their own business practices. *Maybe* I'll start feeling sorry for them when people stop believing that Firefox is "broken" because web developers still write crappy IE-only sites. Until then, screw'um.
results from years of OS crashes due to app failur (Score:3, Insightful)
Device drivers are another story but still, tech support should be able to troubleshoot the problem instead of telling most people to reinstall the OS.
Forcing developers to get MS certification is just another way to control the development market and allow Microsofts own developers advantages when they feel they want the market. It is interesting how Microsoft is already concerned about who will get blamed for poor user experiences with their NEW operating system. I guess businesses must be having a grand time with it already.
LoB
Re:1. Buy box (Score:2, Insightful)
And it is their opinion that MS cares about at this point.