The Unemployed Working on OSS Projects 524
Roger_Explosion writes "In Australia the unemployed have to fulfill a 'mutual obligation' requirement in order to receive welfare payments. What this means is that recipients of welfare payments have to be involved in some sort of activity that improves their chances of finding employment. Until now this has included various types of community service and training and education programs. Recently an organisation called CommunityCode has been established to allow recipients to fulfill this requirement by contributing to OSS projects."
Sounds like a great idea (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Sounds like a great idea (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, it'll help the job skills of the unemployed. But, who's going to keep those highways clean? Who's going to bring meals to the elderly?
(Take it as Funny or Sarcastic. I'm too damned tired to know which hemisphere's in charge.)
Re:Sounds like a great idea (Score:2)
Re:Sounds like a great idea (Score:2)
Re:Sounds like a great idea (Score:3)
Wierd things is on the news this morning they had an item about how the Aussie government is so worried about the low level of skilled/semi-skilled workers they they're offering easy immigration and assisted passage to immigrants from the UK (probably other places as well). Apparently they need plumbers desparately and are very short on hair dressers. In the item they interviewed a guy who owns a car crash repair business in Wollongong, he said that he's so behind due to a shortage of staff that pretty mu
Re:Sounds like a great idea (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Sounds like a great idea (Score:3, Funny)
In the US we tried a covert plan to lure young people into the plumbing trade. The whole rap/hip-hop movement was to condition them to wear their pants at half-staff thinking that this would make for an easy transition and causing them to identify with those they dressed like.
The plan has utterly failed though. Now the plumbers' rates are sky-high so that they might be able to purchase plenty of BLING to wear after hours. We think the key factor in subverting o
Re:Sounds like a great idea (Score:3, Funny)
The story's about Australia, so the Southern Hemisphere, obviously.
Bloody OSS Bludgers (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Bloody OSS Bludgers (Score:5, Informative)
"Bloody dole bludgers" is an Aussie slang phrase describing people on welfare ('the dole' here down under... not sure why we call it that) with no intention of trying to find a job.
And I agree... Bludgers is one of the coolest words ever :)
Re:Bloody OSS Bludgers (Score:3, Informative)
n.
1. Charitable dispensation of goods, especially money, food, or clothing.
2. A share of money, food, or clothing that has been charitably given.
P Pronunciation Key (dl) 3. Chiefly British. The distribution by the government of relief payments to the unemployed; welfare.
Re:Bloody OSS Bludgers (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Bloody OSS Bludgers (Score:3, Insightful)
It is now! Expect to see it in the next copies of Oxford and Webster's Dictionaries, along with such other great terms like "ain't", "doh", and "supercalafragilisticexpialadotious".
Amazing how living languages keep changing, isn't it?
This is heaps good (Score:5, Interesting)
Having said that, the dole (what we call welfare here) is pretty low. I think its about 100USD a week? (for all those US people ou there)
Re:This is heaps good (Score:4, Insightful)
That's only half-serious. I know folks that don't spend enough time looking for a job, and that's why they're still unemployed. Sometimes they enjoy being unemployed more than the paycheck that a job would bring in.
On the other hand, the obvious benefit to this kind of work is that you can build your resume and skillset by working in the field, even without having that job.
Re:This is heaps good (Score:2)
Paul.
Re:This is heaps good (Score:2)
Re:This is heaps good (Score:3, Interesting)
The trouble is this annoying thing called "expenditure" (oh and tax... damned tax... 47%... it's INSANE!!!). Profits will rise from the ashes in the next few months - until then it's been 5 years of hard work.
Paul.
Re:This is heaps good (Score:2)
Re:This is heaps good (Score:2)
fine code (Score:4, Funny)
Re:fine code (Score:5, Funny)
Re:fine code (Score:4, Insightful)
This comunity code thing could let them use their real skills (rather than having to do mowing for their dole), and also will probably add something nice to their resume to maybe get them moving in the job market.
REDS! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:REDS! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:REDS! (Score:3, Insightful)
State sponsored OSS (Score:5, Insightful)
I think it's worth considering that for any company that produces closed source commercial software, there will probably be many others that could benefit from and improve their productivity with good open source software, but can't necessarily afford to pay for the developers themselves, nor the commercial counterparts.
Before jumpling to conclusions that it's state-sponsored competition, I think that this angle should be considered. The economy is made of more than just the commercial software production industry, just as the IT industry encompasses more than simply commercial software development.
Is this worth state sponsorship? Perhaps, or perhaps not, or maybe it's at the very least a good place for interested people to be while they're between paid work, as the article suggests.
Keep in mind that contributing to OSS while on a benefit doesn't release someone from their obligations of getting off the benefit, nor should it. It does give the appropriate people an activity in which they can maintain their skills whilst they're looking for other work. I think this organisation is mostly trying to formalise it, to make it a credible and understood activity for government agencies.
Re:State sponsored OSS (Score:3, Insightful)
And for every farmer that charges for produce, there will be thousands who would be better off if they got the produce for free.
There appears to be a tiny flaw in this point somewhere, just cant put my finger on it.
Re:State sponsored OSS (Score:2)
I think that it's great as an option (Score:5, Insightful)
also, bear in mind that before you drool over the prospect of conscripts to do the grunt work in X.org or kde that any program worthwhile would probably allow them to choose which projects to help out in; and if they all decide that the best way to spend their time is to develop and perfect a tcl front end to cdrecord, that's their choice.
Frankly, I'd prefer that OSS help remain completely voluntary. Getting half-hearted help is worse than getting no help at all.
Re:I think that it's great as an option (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I think that it's great as an option (Score:5, Interesting)
In my brother's case, he was interested in audio-engineering. Centrelink placed him as a volunteer producer in a community radio station, and from there he got a job at a mastering studio.
So in the case of coding for OSS projects - it would be voluntary. And even if someone did provide half-hearted help (i.e. bad code) there's no obligation on the part of the project to accept the code.
Re:I think that it's great as an option (Score:2)
Incidently, I'm not saying my code is perfect either, usually takes me a couple of
Re:I think that it's great as an option (Score:3, Informative)
Centrelink is supposed to try and find you a position that matches your interests and skills
Common misperception here - all Centrelink really does is administer welfare payments. Services like putting you in an interesting Work for the Dole program or helping you find a job are done by other service providers, mainly Community Work Coordinators or Job Network members respectively.
Re:I think that it's great as an option (Score:3, Interesting)
From TFA:
Why? Recipients of Centrelink's Newstart allowance can fufil part or all of their 'mutual obligation' requirements by doing volunteer work for a community organisation; second is that it might be useful for students or other people starting out to get some "real live" development experience.
It says over and over again that this is "volunteer" work, ri
Re:I think that it's great as an option (Score:2, Informative)
Re:I think that it's great as an option (Score:2)
Re:I think that it's great as an option (Score:2)
It probably wouldn't count - I would assume they would expect a project to be "established" or large enough (e.g. more than 2 developers).
Re:I think that it's great as an option (Score:3, Interesting)
Depend which "they" you mean.
Mutual Obligation can be fulfiled in a few ways. There are 2 that are primarily relevant to this program
The government will require that 1 of those two are met. If CC.org can demonstrate that your front end to CDRecord was "training" then they'll be happy with that.
Wheth
Maybe I can help (Score:5, Interesting)
Since they're ask for help from people who are experienced in dealing with our Department, maybe this is a way I can properly contribute to an OSS project for the first time.
Re:Maybe I can help (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Maybe I can help (Score:2)
The next meeting is on Friday, May 27 from 6:00pm to 9:30pm at the University of Technology, Broadway, Sydney.
Hmmm, a three hour drive for one meeting? I think I'll email instead - if I still lived in Sydney then I may have considered it.
Re:Maybe I can help (Score:2)
Unemployed coders in Australia??? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Unemployed coders in Australia??? (Score:5, Insightful)
For example, all those projects where ther's little to no documentation because everyone involved is coding, not documenting? I'm sure there are lots of unemployed writers around.
Or projects that need to market themselves better, maybe need a sleeker looking interface or website or logo or whatever? Tap into the starving artist workforce...
Re:Unemployed coders in Australia??? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Unemployed coders in Australia??? (Score:5, Interesting)
As a single mum who may end up having to full fill some of this mutual obligation stuff if Little Johnny has his way, this sounds like a dream come true. Upping my coding skills, contributing to the community and actually having hope that this will help you get a job
Re:Unemployed coders in Australia??? (Score:3, Interesting)
Sydney for starters. If you can't get a technical job in Sydney, either you think you're more qualified than you are, or you are the worst interviwee of all time.
Re:Unemployed coders in Australia??? (Score:3, Insightful)
And no I haven't had any experience within the mutual obligation system as yet, but in a couple of months I may well, it's either that or allow my child to be raised by child care after school if I am forced to work.
I take offence that the suggestion that my anti-Liberal party sentiment is both mindless and rhetoric.
Re:Unemployed coders in Australia??? (Score:2)
The grandparent got this right : "Mutual obligation tasks are menial, pointless and soul destroying."
You see, I know unemployed people with a PhD looking for work, and you can be sure that they are not lacking in "work ethics". But they do have to endure the type of drivel you uttering.
Re:Unemployed coders in Australia??? (Score:3, Insightful)
> look for a job instead.
why? why do you care? do you think people *don't* look for jobs?
oh, now they will, you asked them to....
Well.. (Score:4, Funny)
Good idea but... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Good idea but... (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't see that happening, myself. If it did, though, perhaps anyone who has a problem with it could put their money where their mouth is and volunteer to employ some of these people to work on closed source commercialised code instead.
Re:Good idea but... (Score:2)
Re:Good idea but... (Score:2, Informative)
Whereas I know for a fact that the developer of Webmin is an Aussie, as well as one of the key contributors to OpenSSL. Plus, a few others I've heard about.
Microsoft Australia is nothing but a marketing and publishing arm... no actual development is done here, AFAIK.
Plus, what with the Govt publishing guidelines on using OSS, I can't see it being a bad thing.
Re:Good idea but... (Score:3, Informative)
I don't think John Howard will approve (Score:4, Insightful)
Mod parent up (Score:2, Informative)
You don't need to degrade dole workers. Sheeesh. Because those who make a career out of it, just won't care. Whereas those who honestl
centrelink workers (Score:4, Funny)
Centrelink: so what jobs have you applied for in the last two weeks?
You: None, but i've been working on CommunityCode.org doing OSS development.
Centrelink: what?
You: I've been doing free software work to get experience and stay a productive member of society.
Centrelink: That's all well and good but I've got a job available at a chicken slaughterhouse I think you should apply for.
Groan.
Re:centrelink workers (Score:5, Informative)
The other way to get ahead would be to apply for the project to apply for resources (i.e. money) through the Employment Innovation Fund [workplace.gov.au]. If it was accepted there, it would be a quick way of getting some official Government recognition and money behind it. Overall, it would go a long way if it could show that it had a training component as well as just extra experience for people who already know how to code.
Re:centrelink workers (Score:2, Informative)
A guy I knew who had been on it for three years was placed in a voluntary position developing websites for a community organisation. He'd never done HTML in his life, but he was interested in computers.
Another friend who had dropped out of Uni also receieved funds to pay for textbooks and non-HECS fees to go back and finish her degree.
Centerlink does actually work, i
Re:centrelink workers (Score:2, Informative)
Lucky they give me money in return.
The problem with this... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The problem with this... (Score:2, Insightful)
Wait and see. The world has been shaped by people who try new things, not by people who stop things before that.
Bert
Out of work? (Score:2, Interesting)
Perhaps if they were employees of a gov program that got cut that would make sense, but why would we start paying those that jumped on the high risk bandwagon 80% of their salary. I know a lot of slashdotters are going to be upset at that, but give me a break! Be compoetetive.
IT work means a lot of different things to diff people. I'm interested to see how i
Disturbing. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's like all the negative of outsourcing without the positive of improving someone else's economy.
Re:Disturbing. (Score:5, Insightful)
Not necessarily (Score:3, Insightful)
It's an interesting perspective to take. At the very least, though, I think that any argument along those lines would have to be weighed out against arguments that:
Re:Disturbing. (Score:5, Insightful)
That's a pretty big "if"... Statements like this betray a basic concept that there's a total of NN software that needs to be developed, and that any amount satisfied by OSS is that much less bread to eat by developers
However, demand for software neither fixed nor predetermined. How many jobs have been lost as a result of the free availability of communications by the Internet? See, the cost of international, interpersonal communication dropped through the floor with the Internet - what about all those lost jobs in telecommunications?
I'm sure the Internet has cost SOME people their jobs, but how many new jobs popped up out of nowhere, doing web design, Intranet sites, database work, RPC and "middleware" based on this "free" Internet technology?
OSS works much the same way. Rather than create a condition of scarcity, it instead creates an environment of plenty - plenty of ideas to explore that otherwise wouldn't due to prohibitive cost, many of which will turn out to be very profitable.
Commonly addressed needs get commoditized by OSS software - Mail servers, databases, web servers, operating systems are all or are becoming commodities. The value, then, moves up the food chain a bit to providing services on top of these commodities.
You don't make much money selling tomatoes, but you might do very well selling food cooked with tomatoes at a restaurant. Same ideas with OSS software.
News Article. (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft Beware! (Score:4, Interesting)
I wish I could fill out an application to be an (oxymoron) paid/unemployed OSS worker.
OSS Chain Gang. (Score:2, Interesting)
Well hey! Why not have prisoners work on OSS? They have plenty of time on their hands.
What a great idea! (Score:2)
Good Idea (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Good Idea (Score:3, Interesting)
Wrong on both counts. Australians were never "exiled", we were and still are proud members of the British Commonwealth. And Australia was not originally discovered with the intent of making a penal colony, the convicts were sent a little later to perform labour and farm work, because England had no more room for them.
And as for us being a pack of halfwits, check out some famous Australian inventions [about.com]. Not bad for a nation of 25 million people.
I for one like this idea (Score:5, Interesting)
Quite often it's very hard to get people to do some work without forking out large amounts of money and you're not always sure about the end results (I've had some really terrible code handed in by contractors - worse than even mine).
I have quite a handful of projects, all openSource which would definately gain from this sort of interaction.
Paul.
excellent (Score:3, Interesting)
Seems like a plan (Score:5, Insightful)
Does it have to be code? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sysadmin and systems for the poor (Score:5, Interesting)
The goal of the project was to provide cheap (free) hardware and software to underprivledged people in Australia. We used Debian [slashdot.org] for single installs, and the KDE [kde.org] wm.
It was a fantastic experience - I learnt all about the insides of computers and how to put them together, com ports, (seemingly) thousands of types of cards (video, audio, nics) and how to configure them, etc etc - all common knowledge ot people here, but you need to start somewhere...
We started a project to give thin clients away to poorer groups (libraries/community groups/refugee action collectives or whatever) which we built from the ground up using common knowledge and the wonderful xserver. I think they have since expanded the project, but now use Mandrake/driva.
A lot of the forced vollies didn't want to be there, but for those of us that did, it was great - I spent my first month testing printers, mice, speakers and doing the last check on systems going out the door...
There are plenty of these things around, and it sure beat weeding public gardens....
Re:Sysadmin and systems for the poor (Score:4, Interesting)
We still use Debian and run 'work for the dole' projects. We can also help people looking to do community work.
See http://vic.computerbank.org.au/ [computerbank.org.au]
Almost like legal blackmail (Score:3, Funny)
LK
Re:Almost like legal blackmail (Score:2, Interesting)
I have worked on a "commercial" project that had to be closed down due to OSS "competition", so now I could/should start working for the other OSS project that "killed" us, to receive welfare payments.. right?
Who is paying??
My cats breath smells like catfood...
Potential problem... (Score:3, Funny)
1. OSS developers write custom management/accounting software for Welfare Program.
2. Welfare department welcomes cutomized management/accounting software with open arms (after all, they *sponsored* software).
3. OSS developers exploit a secret, built-in backdoor system
4. PROFIT!!!
No ???? needed
Needs to be open to any project (Score:4, Informative)
I'm glad to see on their web site that the program is open for 'any Free Software'. If it ever turned into an arrangement where you had to work on the projects they suggested, I'd have a real problem with it. If you were an Aussie company and wanted some software developed on the cheap, you'd just fire all of your developers. They'd be forced by Centrelink onto the work for the dole scheme, and end up doing your software development for you at $4/hour or whatever the effective rate is for the 'mutual obligation' scheme.
The work for the dole system has lots of potential to be misused. It's a good thing we can trust our government to only ever do good things...
Code (Score:4, Funny)
dole = dole * 2;
}
printPayslip();
When they say 'coding' (Score:5, Insightful)
That is an area that is often lacking in OSS projects.
you're kidding... (Score:4, Insightful)
What a wank
Re:you're kidding... (Score:3, Interesting)
I could see myself between jobs and taking a couple of months in relative relaxation, doing nothing but writing open source software to meet my dole requirement, and then spending the rest of my time doing whatever else it is people on the dole do (drink? relax? whatever).
Its quite possible that it might lead to great code, because people are coding for run, with no deadlines, no boss looking over their shoulder, no (serious) responsibilities, no fear of your
Mutual Obligation != Community service. (Score:4, Informative)
Community service is a system where a court orders a petty criminal to do something unpleasant, like picking up rubbish from the roadside. The idea is that work is more equitable than fines. If you screw it up the court can inflict further punishment (eg: jail time).
"Dole bludger" is a derogatory term for someone who recieves unemployment payments, commonly used by self-rightous morons, right-wing politicians and current affairs reporters. All of whom have never had the soul destroying experience of dealing with a Centerlink office.
Centerlink does not run the work-for-the-dole program it is simply there to fuck up your payments and conduct endless "interviews" where they ask the same questions over and over again (eg: Are you having sex with your flatmate?). The irony of Centerlink is that it keeps thousands of unemployable busy bodies off the dole by giving them the job of handing it out.
In OZ, even single young men can get welfare (Score:3, Informative)
Looks good on your resume (Score:3, Insightful)
The person responsible for hiring you can see exactly how well you code, which along with making a good impression in your interview will convince that person that you know what you are doing.
Think about this also, if you need to hire someone good, what sets them apart from the crowd? Certs? No. H1B? No. This person worked on the linux kerenel? Wow, call him in for an interview, now.
How many IBM Programmers are in Australia? (Score:3, Funny)
It helps to keep your sanity (Score:5, Interesting)
RTP, NC has a private version of this, sorta (Score:3, Interesting)
Certain once-large [nortel.com] organizations have shed a lot of (and will soon shed all ) folks around here, and others [ibm.com] are threatening [lenovo.com] to do the same. Not surprising, since RTP has been so telecom-centric, and unlike Silicon Valley, concentrates its employment base in a handful of large companies (vs. gajillions of startups).
The upshot is that there are a lot of unemployed techies around here who need re-training. Enter TechEngage [techengage.org]. The proposition is simple: if you're unemployed, you get to attend a certain number of classes for free (or close to it), and in return, you donate 40 hours of your time to the cause.
I really wish the public sector would wake up to this effort. Oh, sorry, that would be socialist. Can't have that. Unless of course you're an unemployed textile worker in the western part of NC, without even a high-school diploma. Then our state legislature bends over for you, even though you could never contribute as much to the tax base once employed (grumble)..
This Is Not Going To Help (Score:4, Insightful)
In corporate America it is not going to help.
So, you are unemployed looking for a job. That is bad. Now you want to do something with OSS. You polish your skills, come up with something new while hoping that you'll get a job. What you don't understand that you're still nobody in a corporate world. You have better skills, but, guess what, the rest of the world will acquire those skills as well. If you're not willing to work for less, then you'll be replaced again. Go start working on another OSS project. Software engineers are quite common these days. Corporations will outsource and find workers willing to work for the lowest possible wage. As one CEO said, "...The problem with Asia is not the price, it's the fact that they [Indians, Chinese] can't work for free."
You can study and do whatever you want; however, as soon as there is somebody else who is willing to do the same for less money, you're out. Nobody gives a flying fuck if you are an OSS contributor or a genius if you don't fit the price tag. One of my friends is desperately looking for development gigs online. He found himself competing with Indians who are willing to work for less than $10/hr. Unless he lowers his price, he can't really work.
The sooner you realize your pathetic state, the better off you'll be. Instead of doing something that the rest of the world can do, try something new. Whatever you do, make sure that you have skills that are not related to IT. That will increase your chance of survival.
Re:OSS work like you work for IBM but without the (Score:3, Informative)
It's not like every possible piece of software in the world is an OSS project. Someone may want something different.
Re:OSS work like you work for IBM but without the (Score:2)
That's the key..."do their project". As an OSS programmer, you do what interests you. If someone want's to divert that interest to a project of their own, so be it...at which point the expectation of payment is not unreasonable.
Re:DUPE! (Score:2)
It's not a dupe, it's an update! OK, it's a Dupe.