HP to Region-code Cartridges 716
prostoalex writes "Looks like the printer cartridge manufacturers will be borrowing techniques from Hollywood. HP introduced region coding for some of the newest printers sold in Europe. HP's US location and US dollar sliding lead to the situation, where cartridge prices in Europe are significantly higher than those in the States. In the Wall Street Journal article HP representative in Europe claims the company doesn't make any money off regional coding for cartridges, and that consumers will win once the US dollar rises over Euro."
Greedy? (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh.. and don't try to fool me into believing that you don't earn anything from catridges.
Re:Greedy? (Score:2)
First they came for the DVD's (Score:5, Insightful)
Then, they came for the printer cartriges, but I didnt use a printer, so I never said anything.
what's next?
Re:First they came for the DVD's (Score:3, Funny)
I think i stand for the whole slashdot crowd when i say "I'd definitely come for porn too"
Re:First they came for the DVD's (Score:4, Funny)
Where's AntiTrust when you need them? (Score:5, Insightful)
As ridiculous region coding is for DVDs, there I can see a minimal reason (the publishers not wanting a DVD to make it into a market where the movie hasn't even been in the cinemas yet... But as cinema release dates for the big global productions inch ever closer to each other all over the globe, this reason is going away fast - leaving the only "good" thing of the region codings that they can charge more in Europe.
But for an inkjet printer manufacturer - this is pure rip-off. What would I gain by, say, buying an ink-cartridge for a printer that hasn't even been released here from the US? Nothing. I would only waste money.
But - since HP's pricing has gone worse over time anyway, I think it's time to ditch them for good and no longer buy their products... (and just hope that this whole thing doesn't catch on in the printer industry).
My opinion: Fire Carly Fiorina! (Score:4, Insightful)
My opinion: Fire Carly Fiorina! She can't make money for the company without being adversarial for customers. When a company treats its customers badly to try to make more money, that is an indication that the CEO is desperate.
Reworded: "Where are our anti-trust laws when we need them?" The U.S. government is so corrupt that there is no chance there will be any government involvement. A government that kills other people just because a few people want that certainly will not be influenced by laws.
HP inkjets aren't competitive, anyway, so don't buy them. In my experience, they've been having terrible problems with their printer management programs.
HP's action speaks loud and clear: Try Canon!
Re:My opinion: Fire Carly Fiorina! (Score:4, Insightful)
No, it is instead an indication of a company trying to take advantage of people as the culture itself allows it to do. Being treated badly by corporations is getting to epidemic proportions. Surely you must have noticed this, at least in America. The prevailing attitude is that such behavior is wholly justified since it allows said company be "be globally competitive", or some other such rubbish.
With President Bush's "Ownership Society" scam starting to rise into the public consciousness, people are still likely to choose the performance of their stock portfolios much over the ethics of consumer treatment. HP's latest attack is only setting the stage for the next generation of "business as usual". If you personally don't like it, then:
1. Don't put your money into stocks.
2. Don't buy HP products.
The culture is you. Stop rewarding terrible companies like HP. Have your friends and family do the same. Spread the gospel of populism once again over the land, and then stuff like this cartridge-coding bullshit will stop.
Re:My opinion: Fire Carly Fiorina! (Score:4, Insightful)
What happened to HP? They used to have good hardware that was extremely reliable and which performed well.
When I saw a laserjet 6 around '99 or 2000, I laughed, it was all cheap plastic and didn't last more than a couple months in our office.
How the mighty have fallen...
N.
Re:My opinion: Fire Carly Fiorina! (Score:3, Informative)
The LJ4000 is a fine printer in my opinion, as are its successors, the 4050 and to a lesser extent the 4100. I do agree though
Re:My opinion: Fire Carly Fiorina! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Business opportunity (Score:3, Interesting)
I saw a web page the other day talking about the fact that a freaking MICROWAVE OVEN can be bought for less than a set of ink cartridges for the average printer. How does that work, exactly? The carts are priced artifi
But you have no real alternatives... (Score:3, Informative)
But - since HP's pricing has gone worse over time anyway, I think it's time to ditch them for good and no longer buy their products... (and just hope that this whole thing doesn't catch on in the printer industry).
Unfortunately, that's easier said than done. Take a look at the list of Suggested Printers for Free Software Users [linuxprinting.org] and try to find a printer that is well supported on BSD, Linux and friends. The list is a bit outdated, but in general it's a good guideline. I researched this in detail a few mont
Re:But you have no real alternatives... (Score:4, Informative)
(no affl. etc., just my experience).
Buy a Postscript printer (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, they are more expensive, however it tends to be the "native" format for most Unix / Linux applications, and brand independent.
I have a HP LaserJet 6MP with Postscript for that reason. I did pay a small fortune for it a number of years ago, including upgrading the ram to 19MB (3MB factory + 16 MB). If and when I replace it, I may not buy a HP again, however I'll certainly be looking for a Postscript replacement.
Re:Where's AntiTrust when you need them? (Score:4, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
A political angle? (Score:3, Interesting)
This would explain why the region code map has some significant geographical incongruities and why China is its own region.
Re:Where's AntiTrust when you need them? (Score:3, Informative)
It's bullshit however you cut it (Score:5, Insightful)
Region codes are bullshit no matter how you slice it. They make a mockery of free markets and free trade agreements. Essentially, the international corporations have decided they like free trade agreements when it means they can outsource their labor to the cheapest markets without restrictions (and in the case of the Bush administration, with tax incentives to do so), but they will artificially fragment the marketplace in order to prevent their customers from shopping competatively.
Free trade for corporations, restricted trades for mortal humans.
Its unjustifiable, regardless of whether it's DVDs we're talking about, or printer cartidges. The DVD justification has always been weak, and typically break down to:
1) MPAA Whiney voice: "But we don't want people buying movies in one market when they haven't been released in another."
1) Sensible citizen's response: "Touch shit. It's a global marketplace. Release your movies globally, instead of fucking with people in market B by making them wait six months longer than people in market A. This whole "second class" market citizenship is vile anyway."
2) Whiney MPAA voice: "But we don't want arbitrage markets forming, where people buy DVDs in China for $3 and sell them in the US for $10 when we're selling the same DVD for $20."
2A) Reasonable citizen response: "Fuck you. If you can make a profit selling DVDs in China for $3, you can make a profit selling them in the US for $3. Anything more is gouging the customer, and quite frankly, no one with a shred of common sense should have an ounce of sympathy for an industry that bases its entire business model on the practice of gouging various sets of customers. Oh, and if you're going to whine about currency markets and shifting values of the yuan against the dollar, a sensible person has but two things to say. One, the Yuan is locked to the dollar, so the specific argument with regard to China is doubly bullshit, and two, in the more general sense (e.g. the US vs. Europe), currency markets are free marktets, and you can accept their results the same as the rest of us. If that means someone occasionally gets a good deal when they travel overseas, more power to them. Its called a global economy
HP should be run out of town for this nonsense. The MPAA should be run out of town for this nonsense. But most importantly, the scum-sucking politicians who set up this one-sided regime of free trade for companies, but restricted trade and rights for real, living human beings, should be run out of the country for this nonsense.
Not that I'm holding my breath, mind you.
Re:Where's AntiTrust when you need them? (Score:3, Funny)
As a Windows user, I say "ditch them due to idiotic marketing choices."
Re:Greedy? (Score:4, Informative)
It is quite obvious HP makes more money off their expensive cartridges than the printer sales themselves. If you are smart you actually buy new printer for 40 including a cartridge instead of... just a refill cartridge for 40.
I can see a trend where HP and other manufacturers odify their ink:
- harder to refill
- have even tougher to crack IDs (to precent the use of refillable third party cartridges) DMCA and the European equivalents will surely be used some day as a move
- country or region coded
I for one avoid HP and Lexmark inkjets, and this aversion for these brands has also lead to many purchase decisions affecting HPs computer, laptop and laser printer sales in organisations where I am involved.
This reeks of greed.
Re:Greedy? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Greedy? (Score:3)
The ones I know, myself included, only know that "the only group you can trust less than business is the government."
To paraphrase an axiom. "To steal is business, to really frell you in the ass takes a government"
Why are they doing it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why are they doing it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Classic spin.
Re:Why are they doing it? (Score:2)
Re:Why are they doing it? (Score:5, Insightful)
This also a beautiful illustration of why multinationals are the real winners in globalization, they can use labor cost differentials to make a killing and legally backed technological guards to enforce market separation for consumers.
Re:Why are they doing it? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, but:
they can use labor cost differentials to make a killing and legally backed technological guards to enforce market separation for consumers
There's the state. I have no problem with HP doing this. I have a huge problem with government declaring it illegal for me not to conform to HP's business model.
Re:Why are they doing it? (Score:3, Funny)
Huzzah for Globalisation! I have the freedom to watch my job move to Mumbai, but I'll be jiggered if I can buy a printer cartridge from there.
Re:Why are they doing it? - What to get instead? (Score:3, Insightful)
So the big question is are there any non-Evil printer manufacturers out there?
Re:Why are they doing it? - What to get instead? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why are they doing it? (Score:5, Insightful)
So it's very simple: they want to pass off any disadvantages of the exchange rate to us customers, while pocketing the advantages. The first is only natural, but they can only get away with the second if they can prevent us from buying in the US.
Ok, correct me if I'm wrong... (Score:3, Insightful)
But wasn't the internet, ecommerce and globalisation supposedly all about getting the best deal anywhere in the freaking world? Now that the system works for consumers, not just for big business to lure away taxable profits, they pull shit like this.
Just realize it guys. Any business big enough is only after one thing, screwing everyone else. This is capitalism at it's finest, and those who endorse it shouldn't expect anything else.
Re:Ok, correct me if I'm wrong... (Score:3, Insightful)
No, screwing everyone else requires resources, which eats into profits. Businesses are after short-term profits. They'll do anything to ensure they keep making as much money as possible. They'll even break the law if the return on investment is high enough.
But they won't do anything just to hurt people. They don't have emo
Re:Why are they doing it? (Score:3, Insightful)
Dollar rising (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Dollar rising (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Dollar rising (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Dollar rising (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Dollar rising (Score:3, Insightful)
The half-century of war that it's going to take to consolidate and maintain the American Christian Empire is going to be no picnic, either.
This is anti-competitive (Score:2)
Besides, how do they mean consumers will benefit when the dollar rises against the euro? They'll just use that as an excuse to put prices up.
There is a mechanism for dealing with exchange-rate risk, hedging the currency market. This way smacks of profiteering.
Re:This is anti-competitive (Score:2)
Re:This is anti-competitive (Score:2)
Re:This is anti-competitive (Score:2)
Personally, I put printer vendors up there with Hitler or something..
Re:This is anti-competitive (Score:2)
Dollar rising above euro (Score:2)
FYI, 1 will theoretically buy you about $1.30 at present - i.e. $1 = 0.77
Even if the euro declined for an extended period, it would be at least a year if not more before we would see the dollar worth more than it!
Bah! They're a bunch of blood-sucking money-hungry capitalist pigs.
There is a probe by EC into this already (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:There is a probe by EC into this already (Score:2, Insightful)
How Stupid? (Score:3, Funny)
Consumers will win once the US dollar rises over Euro
Oh yes! I'm sure consumer in the US will be thrilled!
Re:How Stupid? (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, those in the know (such as Warren Buffet) are quite certain the US Dollar will continue to decline for some time.
once ... (Score:2, Insightful)
if the US dollar rises over the Euro
Seriously, is it ethically correct that 100ml ink is more expensive than 100ml insulin?
Re:once ... (Score:2)
Re:once ... (Score:2)
Re:once ... (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah right. That's going to happen. The pound is so strong against the dollar right now it's silly.
Importing stuff from the US makes sense to comsumers here, especially now the Internet makes it easy.
US companies have ritually shafted us for years with their foreign price fixing and they're not happy when we won't take it and import instead.
I can import Levis 501s for $32 that's £17.13. Here they cost £45. Even if Customs and Excise notice and charge me duty I'm still paying less than half the price they set here. Typically I get my American friends to bring a new pair over for me when they visit.
Electronics and Computers too. A friend of mine flew over from Birmingham, UK to New York City for a break a couple of years ago. He bought a Powerbook G4 whilst there. He said the money he saved covered the cost of his flight.
I'm pretty sure we have laws governing free market to stop this crap.
Import printers? (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh well, time to find a printer manufacturer with printers as their core business instead of selling printer ink for gold-prices.
Re:Import printers? (Score:2)
Re:Import printers? (Score:3, Informative)
And:
Re:Import printers? (Score:2)
Ha. Good luck.
Re:Import printers? (Score:3, Informative)
Oh well, time to find a printer manufacturer with printers as their core business instead of selling printer ink for gold-prices.
Try Canon. I did my research because I was disgusted with all the crappy printer companies, and Canon is still doing it right. I recommend the i4000r. It prints out flawless photos, has networking built-in, and, if you live in Europe, also has a CD/DVD printer builtin. It's got two inputs (a tray, and a tilted slot, and even prints on both sides of the page. At 200 Euros,
Do what I do. (Score:2)
I bought four Canon S200's. If Canon, Lexmark, or HP are going to sell printers with cartridges cheaper than they sell cartridges, I'm going to buy a new printer every time. Obviously this doesn't work for high end printers, but I don't have a need for a high end printer.
Motive?? (Score:2)
"We are not trying to make money on this"
So why have they bothered? Maybe they are just showcasing a new technology for us?? How nice - thank you HP!!
Well... (Score:2, Funny)
So, I am never going to win?
code my money (Score:5, Funny)
Re:code my money (Score:2)
Mental note to self... (Score:4, Insightful)
Buy Canon...
This'll also save me time from taping of my 40ml black cartridges to use on my HP Deskjet 970C, instead of the default 20ml ones...
Re:Mental note to self... (Score:2)
Epson doesn't seem like a bad choice, however.
Better yet, don't buy a new printer unless you absolutely need to, and if you can, buy a used one somewhere. Only HP's newer stuff will be region-coded, and you'll probably save money buying used. My printer, an HP DeskJet 832C, is quite a few years old and is still kicking--these things are fairly durable.
Re:Mental note to self... (Score:2)
2) Epson's not a bad choice?! Well, if you are ok that it spits over a buck (IIRC) worth of ink every time it decides to clean the head...
Exchange Rate Controls (Score:2)
Off the top of my head, and with no real data, I just see this as an attempt at implementing exchange rate controls.
HP is choosing to lock in an artifical rate, set effectivey by the disparity in localised prices.
But in reality, much of that disparity stems from stock inventory which has been bought and financed at historic exchange rates.
Not even large distributors can necessarily justify, manage or afford responsive hedeing programs.
Is this a return to the labarynthine export and exchange quota
consumers are only in the US ? (Score:3, Insightful)
As currency fluctuates there will *always* be winners and losers in this scheme.
One year it's cheaper to import ink from the US at their price, the next cheaper for USians to import EU ink.
What next? Region encoded GM rice ?
Comsumers lose (Score:5, Insightful)
I call bullshit on this. You always introduce regions to make consumers pay more than before (in total), hence the consumers lose. Naturally, some customers pay less than others (how else could it be price discrimination), but overall that is simply false.
Kjella
Re:Comsumers lose (Score:3, Insightful)
Uh, not quite how it works... (Score:3, Insightful)
I'll illustrate with an example. Person A: +10$, B,C,D: +$2 to profits (at most). Now, in a single market, you would have price 10, volume 1 and profit 10 (since all would buy at the same price, and 4*$2 < $10).
If you can spl
Printers are $50,-, let's bulk import them! (Score:3, Interesting)
It's a swindle (Score:2)
Inkjet ink has got to be one of the biggest scams of recent times. No wonder spammers seem so enamored with it.
What they meant to say (Score:2)
Which is code words for
"The people who buy our products are incredibly stupid schmucks that will buy anything we say."
You know... (Score:2, Funny)
Why HP's region coding excuse is bogus (Boing-Boi (Score:3, Informative)
Yeah, right... (Score:2)
Yeah, right after pigs start flying.
Robert
An aggressive SELL tip, IMNSHO (Score:2)
The company introduced region-coding on several printers in the summer so it won't have to keep altering prices to keep pace with currency movements, says Kim Holm, vice president for H-P's supplies business in Europe, the Middle East and Africa.
And i thought when Carly took over at HP she rolled out the worlds most sophisticated SAP system to integrate their whole supply chain?
You mean HP can't write a script in SAP Financials?
Geez, where's that calculator division when you need a 17BII handy.
HP (Score:2)
Carly is an idiot who is rearranging the furnitre on deck while the ship is taking on water from hitting an iceberg years ago.
What about the mantra of capitalism? (Score:2)
Wasn't the key tenet that we all stood to gain most from free rein for the IT industry (and low standards of protection against "hidden features" like these for the consumers?), free trade and globalisation, no matter what?
(Of course one could say "at least it's not anti-competitive", because with the manufacturers' de-facto monopolies on cartridges, competition in
Translation (Score:2)
Switch to a Xerox... (Score:2)
I've got a Xerox Phaser 8200 [xerox.com] (now superceded by the 8400 [xerox.com]) which would be virtually impossible to pull a "region code" trick on... the ink comes in solid blocks that just slot into the top of the printer - no cartridge at all, and no waste.
Dollar will rise the Euro (Score:2)
Four or five years from now.
And in 2006 (Score:2)
Buy CANON (Score:3, Informative)
They had a blurb quoting a few prices for HP ink and Canon ink, and Canon was almost half the price of HP ink. (I wish I could find the damn magazine so I can quote exact numbers.... gotta clean my room)
Corporate Anti-Globalism (Score:5, Insightful)
In short, HP has calculated that region coding their cartridges will pay. And it will, unless the public creates enough commotion to affect their bottom line and force a rethink of the region coding.
HP is restricting free the use of products that I own (or in this case, am likely to buy). As a proponent of Open Source I feel this is wrong. If you feel the same way, make your voice heard, either by boycotting the infringing products or helping to create awareness of these bad business practices.
Globalisation (Score:5, Insightful)
On the one hand big companies and corporations are lobbying governments to lessen trade restrictions and import/export taxes so that they can benefit from cheap production costs in other countries. Then on the other hand, they add restrictions themselves so that they can still sell the items at high prices. They make sure that they benefit and not the customer.
Try are trying to have their globalisation cake and eat it.
Globalisation & game theory (Score:3, Interesting)
In that light, it is not just the consumers who pay for HP's corporate wealth, but smaller companies will be forced to pay their share as well through unfair competition. Still, *they*'re supposed to be the only way out of the situation in a free economy. That is: free t
"Consumers will win once the US dollar rises" (Score:5, Informative)
Warren Buffett sees no way but down for US dollar
The dollar cannot avoid further declines against other major currencies unless the US trade and current account deficits improve, legendary investor and businessman Warren Buffett said.
"I think, over time, unless we have a major change in trade policies, I don't see how the dollar avoids going down," the world's second-richest individual told CNBC television.
"I don't know when it happens. I don't have any idea whether it will be this month or this year or next year, but we are force-feeding dollars on to the rest of the world at the rate of close to a couple billion dollars a day, and that's going to weigh on the dollar."
Buffett noted the record US deficit of 164.7 billion dollars in the third quarter of 2004 in the current account, which measures trade and investment flows.
Re:"Consumers will win once the US dollar rises" (Score:3, Interesting)
Yet another reason.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Get in touch with them (Score:3, Insightful)
Email regarding advertising (marketing people will take notice about bad PR).. html [hp.com]
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/hpads/contactus
Email Carly (probably /dev/null but you never know).
n dex.html [hp.com]
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/email/fiorina/i
Let's walkthru the economics of this... (Score:3, Insightful)
Used laser printer at your neighborhood: $100-$150
Recycled toner cartridge: $50
Average # of pages per toner refill: 1000
Price of one black and white printout: 0.05$
Price of one digital camera picture on real photographic paper: 0.25$
Generic inkjet printer: $100-$150
Ink cartridges, black+colour: $60
'photo quality' glossy 4x6 paper, 50 sheets: $20
Average # of pages per ink refill: 250
Average # of color prints per ink refill: 50
Price of one black and white printout: 0.24$
Price of one color printout on glossy paper: 1.60$
Conclusion: Inkjet are for suckers. Flame away.
Re:Region Coding catridges better than CDs (Score:2)
Re:Region Coding catridges better than CDs (Score:3, Insightful)
Ok, let us for one second forget about legality (Score:3, Insightful)
Tried for hacking your own printer catridge? C'mon! What judge would not feel fundamentaly insulted for having a case like that in his courtroom?
Re:Apple, Dell, HP,... (Score:5, Funny)
I did have a small talk at baggage check-in about the weight of the G5 and with the customs guy here in Austria about how new the stuff looked but even he did not really care that much. That the dollar sucks so much just makes it more attractive... it's like vacationing in a third world country only with lots of SUVs and chubby people.
Re:It's just Lexmark all over again (Score:3, Interesting)
While I recognise your sarcasm, if HP does it down here, the ACCC (Australian Competition and Comsumer Commission) will probably belt them down, like they already have done for DVDs.
Every DVD player here is cheap and region unlocked. The only sane reason for buying some brand name contraption is if you want it to tie into your home theatre system well.