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Microsoft And JBoss Collaborate On Server Software

Posted by Zonk on Tue Sep 27, 2005 04:51 PM
from the penguins-in-hell dept.
Microsoft IT
wellington map wrote to mention a C|Net article discussing a collaboration between Microsoft and JBoss, intended to ensure their server software is more interoperable. From the article: "Microsoft has struggled to deal with the arrival of open-source software, which is collaboratively developed with a code-sharing process that stands in stark contrast to the secrecy that shrouds most of the products from Microsoft and other proprietary software makers. After several attacks on the intellectual-property foundations and the methods, quality and cost of open-source software, Redmond, Wash.-based Microsoft has begun a more cooperative phase."
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  • Response (Score:5, Funny)

    by gleather (596807) <gleatherman@g m a il.com> on Tuesday September 27 2005, @04:53PM (#13662229) Journal
    What is the appropriate response when you are offered a hand that started out with a knife in it?

    • Re:Response (Score:5, Insightful)

      by greythax (880837) on Tuesday September 27 2005, @04:55PM (#13662255)
      The appropriate response is to look for the knife in the other hand.
    • Jboss stories on slashdot with no indication of what jboss is for (or why anyone would care). Didn't we go through this last year (and figure out that they were all slashvertizements?)?

      • Re:Aaahh! It's back! (Score:4, Informative)

        by laffer1 (701823) <luke@nOspaM.foolishgames.com> on Tuesday September 27 2005, @06:32PM (#13662900) Homepage
        Good point. Here's a summary of JBoss. Its a J2EE application server. Translation: it runs server side java code for websites and web services (servlets, jsp, jsf, enterprise java beans, more buzzwords) Its kind of like ASP.NET's runtime equivalent in java. Sun, Oracle, HP and several other companies make competing products. PHP folk make recognize it as a bloated service thats used to run code you can just write in PHP as a script. (i don't like php, but its a fair assessment for smaller projects) JBoss is included in Mac OS X and Mac OS X server (10.4).

        A little more information:
        JBoss is a greedy project which used to charge people for the documentation! Yes, it was free and open source to download jboss but the documention was $$$. Most people don't even know what J2EE is and can get away with running Apache Tomcat, Resin, or Jetty. In fact, JBoss uses apache tomcat.

  • Proprietary (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mysqlrocks (783488) on Tuesday September 27 2005, @04:57PM (#13662271) Homepage Journal
    I'm sure Microsoft has some plan for assimilation (this is not meant to be a troll or a flame). Hopefully this doesn't turn out like J# where Microsoft put in their own proprietary libraries that developers built on thinking they were building Java applications that could run on any JVM.

    • Re:Proprietary (Score:2, Informative)

      by hkb (777908)
      Uhm, J# is a Java-language interface to the .NET Framework, it has nothing to do with any JVM.

      You might mean J++, and I don't really see what was wrong with that, other than lawsuit-happy Sun wanting to keep a maniacal strangehold on Java. What's wrong with adding proprietary libraries? Java has/had a ton of shortcomings. If you didn't like J++, you didn't have to use it.

      This same thing is being done by OSS JVM projects, and the Mono project, who had developed their own implementation of the .NET Framework

      • Re:Proprietary (Score:5, Informative)

        by rewt66 (738525) on Tuesday September 27 2005, @05:56PM (#13662687)
        What's wrong with adding proprietary stuff? Nothing.

        What's wrong with adding proprietary stuff in violation of the requirements for using the name "Java", and yet still calling it "Java"? Plenty.

        That's why Microsoft lost the lawsuit. They aren't quite the innocent victims of lawsuit-happy Sun that you are making them out to be.
        • They settled with Sun, they didn't "lose". They ceased releasing J++ due to the uncertainty of the outcome of the lawsuit BEFORE it settled.

          And basically, J++ continues on as its next iteration with new technologies as J#, so the lawsuit didn't really do much, except get Java banished from Windows by default. Who lost again?
          • Who lost again?

            Every computer user who would have been better off with a truly platform-independant application development platform.
            • So we'd be better off if Java ruled the world right now? Everyone running a slow (yes, it IS slow, thank you), least-common-denominator, powerless development environment that Sun won't allow OS vendors to tailor to a particular OS's featureset? Kiss Aqua goodbye, kiss Win32, ASP.NET, Gtk good bye. Gee. Sounds wonderful.
      • What's wrong with adding proprietary libraries?

        Absolutely nothing. That is not what the lawsuit was about. All the com.ms.* stuff that Microsoft produced was appropriate - and very welcome for those wanting to write Windows specific apps.

        The lawsuit was about adding proprietary extensions to the core libraries - the java.* libraries. That was specifically forbidden in the contract. Microsoft's excuse in court was that the contract didn't mention future versions.

        The problem with extensions to core

    • Re:Proprietary (Score:4, Informative)

      by ezweave (584517) on Tuesday September 27 2005, @05:45PM (#13662622) Homepage

      Well J# [wikipedia.org] isn't supposed to be Java. I have never heard that, only that it is C# with Java-like syntax (which is to say not really that different). Now, I do remember good old J++ [wikipedia.org], which was just a plain Java ripoff. Since J# is supposedly compatible [microsoft.com] with J++ maybe it is just MS trying to be clever(ly evil).

      Back in 97 or so, J++ was actually Java. It wasn't until Visual Studio 6 that it became something else. Hence the lawsuit!

      All that said, I worry for JBoss. I don't want to see MS ruin a good product.

  • quickly... (Score:3, Funny)

    by The_DOD_player (640135) on Tuesday September 27 2005, @04:57PM (#13662275)
    it's a trick... get an axe!

  • The Popular Front of Judea (Score:5, Funny)

    by Cally (10873) on Tuesday September 27 2005, @04:59PM (#13662294) Homepage
    I was just watching this, and it seems strangely relevant in some way I can't quite put my finger on...

    Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the fucking Judean People's Front.
    P.F.J.: Yeah...
    JUDITH: Splitters.
    P.F.J.: Splitters...
    FRANCIS: And the Judean Popular People's Front.
    P.F.J.: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters...
    LORETTA: And the People's Front of Judea.
    P.F.J.: Yeah. Splitters. Splitters...
    REG: What?
    LORETTA: The People's Front of Judea. Splitters.
    REG: We're the People's Front of Judea!
    LORETTA: Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.
    REG: People's Front! C-huh.
    FRANCIS: Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?
    REG: He's over there.
    P.F.J.: Splitter!

  • How Different? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by AKAImBatman (238306) * <(akaimbatman) (at) (gmail.com)> on Tuesday September 27 2005, @05:00PM (#13662296) Homepage Journal
    Products from the two companies are similar in purpose, but very different in design. The JBoss application server, based on Java, runs on Windows, Linux and Unix systems. Microsoft's Windows-based application server tools, based on the company's .Net programming model, are part of its Windows Server operating system.

    Oh, well that explains everything. One product runs everywhere, the other runs only on Windows. See? They're different!

    Don't worry, though. Microsoft is working hard to correct the problem. Once they "make sure that JBoss runs well on Windows", both products will be very similar. After all, who needs Linux and Unix support?
      • 1. It's called "sarcasm".
        2. Microsoft's "Embrace and Extend" strategy is well documented.
        3. The article claimed that they were "very different" seemingly because one ran on Windows and the other ran on Unix.
        4. Microsoft is "fixing" JBoss.

        BTW, as a Java programmer, I can say with honesty that there are plenty of things you can do to explicitly tie a program to a given OS. There are even things you can do while still being "100% Java". (e.g. File system structures, native network services, login services, com
        • Right but JBoss and the ASP.NET application server are completely different technologies, for one, and two, I've used both and ASP.NET seems a hell of a lot more solid to me.

          If Microsoft were to somehow "taint" JBoss with .NET, they'd essentially have to recode JBoss from scratch.
  • True cooperation for the purpose of interoperability would be a very welcome change. The only question I have is: "Why is the hair on the back of my neck standing up?"

    • The only question I have is: "Why is the hair on the back of my neck standing up?"

      Many people feel that same thing. This is what Microsoft is up against. Everyone knows Microsoft's track record in the methods they use to take apart competition and most everyone knows that not all of those methods are truly above board. There's a logical consideration which follows,"Does Microsoft know that we knew that they know and will use every underhanded trick in the book and, if so, are they trying to fix it or

  • "Embrace and extend" mean anything to you?

  • IBM (Score:5, Interesting)

    by CSHARP123 (904951) on Tuesday September 27 2005, @05:13PM (#13662384)
    I think this has got nothing to do with FOSS but everything to do with IBM. Hitting on Websphere will be hitting on IBM's one of the server product. If you look at Microsoft website, it always compares .Net with Websphere. By collaborating with open source product MS will kill two birds in one stone. MS open source supporter and other kill websphere as much as possible by promoting an open source product.
    • Parent is right, but I think it's bigger than just IBM.

      I think what this suggests is that Microsoft is positioning itself to be the one that gets all the money that is supposed to be generated from OSS.

      I believe Microsoft will be able to say to their wealthiest customers, "buy our product, then use this free product and we'll support both!" Effectively leaving the market "crumbs" to the small guys while capturing the wealthiest dollars.

      If this experiment fails, I think they will litigate away their Linux c
    • No its not nothing to do with IBM or FOSS.

      The issue is .NET 1.1 and the java web services stacks have different defaults when it comes to structuring a web services message -- Java stacks are RPC-oriented, Microsofts are (correctly) doc/lit oriented. Websphere's stack has the same issue the Axis stack and other Java stacks have. (In fact, I haven't looked, it may be Axis)

      The WS security interoperability and general inability for Java and .NET to pass collections over SOAP are problems that are fixed with a
  • That's the definition of Holy Crap.

    Ohhhhh. JBOSS? My bad.

  • minus and minus = plus? (Score:3, Funny)

    by otisg (92803) on Tuesday September 27 2005, @05:20PM (#13662428) Homepage Journal
    Are they trying to prove that 2 wrongs make a right?

  • Working the 5 steps of denial? (Score:5, Funny)

    by jrcamp (150032) on Tuesday September 27 2005, @05:20PM (#13662429)
    1) Denial
    2) Anger
    3) Bargaining — Microsoft, you are HERE.
    4) Depression
    5) Acceptance

    Hey, at least they're working the program. Who would have imagined 2 years ago that they would even acknowledge open source, let alone cooperate. The next 2 steps will be rough for them.

  • They want JBoss to run well on windows (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 27 2005, @05:26PM (#13662468)
    That is all about positioning of windows servers. That is all. It says nothing about their embrace of open source. The market wants to run some Jboss. MS wants to sell some server licenses. While they do this to help themselves, they can still slam java, open source, and move people from java to .net all while they position server 2003 as a worthy jboss host.

  • embrace and extend... again (Score:5, Insightful)

    by WiPEOUT (20036) on Tuesday September 27 2005, @05:27PM (#13662476)
    MS: Let's work with JBos to interoperate more cleanly. Once we're done, we can always change the way ours works ... I mean improve on our protocols. Our customers can now use Windows and .NET to talk to JBoss, while JBoss users can't talk to our stuff. It's brilliant, as it makes JBoss look bad. Further, it will slow down the JBoss developers who will have to spend more time playing catch-up, while setting them up so that even if they change their own protocols in a game of tit-for-tat, we can point to them and say, "look, the JBoss developers deliberately broke compatibility with our software -- aren't they evil!".

  • the obligatory... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by oddtodd (125924) <oddtodd@noSpAM.mindspring.com> on Tuesday September 27 2005, @05:28PM (#13662484)
    "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."
        Sun Tzu (probably maybe)
    • "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."
      Sun Tzu (probably maybe)

      Michael Coreleone: "There are many things my father taught me here in this room.
      He taught me: keep your friends close, but your enemies closer."

      Sun Tzu: "Know thy self, know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories."

      People tend to forget the "know they self" part, despite it being th
  • From the article:

    SQL Server, Microsoft's database software, with JBoss' Hibernate and Enterprise JavaBeans software.

    That's for interop - but does JBoss own Hibernate? I just thought they were heavy users.

    Not much going on there except the possibility of managing JBoss through Microsoft tools.

    I don't see how on one hand Microsoft can claim no new support for Java while at the same time saying the SQL Server will work better with JBoss. Smells like JDBC drivers to me.
  • You cooperate - they prosper. Survive the M$ legal death march? Time to the write M$ jungle code. You wouldn't survive it, but will survive longer depending on how you behave. Embrace, extend and extinguish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_e xtinguish [wikipedia.org]

  • microsoft is gonna look out for ya (Score:5, Funny)

    by flacco (324089) on Tuesday September 27 2005, @06:55PM (#13663036)
    hey kid, whattaya in for? whadja do, kid? how much time dey give ya here in the commercial world, kid?


    my name's microsoft, but in here dey all calls me win-blows. don't worry, i'm gonna look out for ya. here, take dis left-over turkey sammwich i cribbed from da mess hall. it's yours. i want ya ta have it. no strings.


    no, really, dat's a cryin shame dey stuck youse in here wid a buncha cash-addicted boneheads like us. cryin shame. but i'm gonna watch your back for ya kid. i'm gonna make it my personal business dat you get outta here in one piece.


    look, i got some extra socks from da laundry. clean socks. outta my own pocket. you're gonna be all right, kid, don't worry about it.


    an' i got somethin else for ya. i got it taped up under my arm here. you're gonna like dis, kid. ya ever seen one a dese before? it's a SHIV, you goddamn brat! dat's right, now take off yer goddamn pants an' put dis butter on your ass.


    shaddap kid, quit yer goddamn cryin. whattaya think, you come in here an' eat a man's sammwich an' take a man's socks fer nothin'? shaddap, i said! you should feel lucky. you see oracle over dere? he don't use no butter! shoulda seen what he did to peoplesoft.


    man i hate dese goddamn punks. stupid, goddamn, punks.

  • I've been working on a project with web services running in JBoss and clients connecting in .NET for over a year now (JBoss 4.x, .NET 2.0 Beta). These web services involve objects that are fairly complex. The biggest "incompatibility" we've experienced has been upgrading JBoss versions, which unfortunately introduce pervasive changes to the application.

    So my question is, where's the incompatibility with respect to JBoss and .NET? If it exists, I sure haven't seen it. We even recently upgraded to jdk
  • Collaboration phase or Embrace phase? Look at M$ track record for collaboration. Either they buy you, or you are destroyed, seems to be their basic mode. Statistically it is far more likely that JBoss is going to be dead in 18 months than that they are going to be able to do any reasonable "cooperation" with Microsoft. If they can't do business with any other company, they need a new business plan; this one is not a recipe for survival.

  • Just a few weeks ago, MS was looking for a cooperative project with OSDL or Red Hat (here [slashdot.org]). Now they anounce a cooperative project with JBoss. That is weard!

    The deal with OSDL (or Red Hat) had a clear oportunity to a backstab, but this one not.

    Very, very weard.

    • I used to work at Andersen consulting back in 92 and JBoss played a big part in our enterprise deployments
      But Java wasn't first released until - what, 1996? 97? No idea when JBoss came along, but pretty recently - post 2000 at a guess? Did you mean you worked at Anderson back in 2002?

    • Re:How is the saying? (Score:4, Funny)

      by Sponge Bath (413667) on Tuesday September 27 2005, @05:20PM (#13662432)
      If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

      Bill Gate's saying is:
      "If you can't beat 'em, have Steve Balmer fling a chair at them.


    • But, hiding in a thick container of tin foil

      Instead of wrapping all that foil around the basement, you should have asked the contractor for one tin ceiling in the first place.

      It'd work much better against the CIA's powerful intelligence-gathering methoh49hrv90gtv2gvNO CARRIER

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