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Key Advantage of Open Source is Not Cost Savings
Posted by
samzenpus
on Thu May 12, 2005 01:09 AM
from the what-do-you-think dept.
from the what-do-you-think dept.
cmcsonar writes "Computer Economics recently conducted a survey of visitors to its website regarding the perceived advantages in the use of open source software. Although not a scientific sample, the results are nevertheless startling."
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How much would google have spent (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know their pricing, but I guess cost does matter as you scale up.
Re:How much would google have spent (Score:5, Informative)
Indeed, Microsoft may be find for small systems and hobby use, but when you scale up proprietary software becomes a worse and worse choice. I had an interesting experience in a startup company when Yahoo was considering to buy our company. They sent a bunch of people over to review our technology; and when we mentioned our databases ran Oracle, one of the guys looked to our CFO and told him "you shouldn't have let them do that". "Why not", our CFO asked - since he was one of the guys orginally insisting that to be taken seriously we'd neet to have top-tier components everywhere. The Yahoo guy's response: "Well, Oracle may scale well technologically, but it doesn't scale financially".
Parent
Re:How much would google have spent (Score:5, Interesting)
I work at Friendster, and we have... ah... a really big database cluster. It runs MySQL. Not that Oracle didn't try. They sent out sales people to convince us to convert over. After we looked at the dollar signs, we laughed them out of the office.
I was interviewing a candidate for one of our sysadmin positions. He said something along the lines of: "Well, now you're running MySQL. Once you start making money, do you think you'll start using Oracle or something else that scales better?"
I laughed and said exactly what parent AC said: "Oracle scales in theory. But in practice, 99% of businesses can't afford to scale with Oracle. I can build another couple terabytes of DB storage in a redundant replicated cluster tomorrow for $10k with MySQL. With Oracle it'd be 10x that much, if I were so lucky." That's not to mention the overhead of calling their sales guys, licensing hassle, and other crap. With MySQL, you install and go.
There are other huge advantages MySQL has over Oracle and their ilk. Take this for example... Right now MySQL AB tech support is stellar. Front line support knows when to escalate to the proper engineer (InnoDB problems? Two hours later, Heikki Tuuri is emailing you!). I remember talking to a PHB a year or two ago, and he said: "Well, MySQL support may be good now, but that'll change. It'll get bad."
My response? So what? Then I'll find a MySQL support shop that has good support and use them. They can support MySQL just as well as MySQL AB can.
Try that with Oracle. "No, Oracle, I hate your tech support. Starting tomorrow, I'm going to have Sybase support our Oracle installation." Oracle will laugh at you, then double your support costs for your insolence.
Parent
Re:How much would google have spent (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah, sorry I posted as an AC; but we ended up going bankrupt largely due to stupid spending encouraged by one of the execs and the VCs. Congrats on Friendster's success and smarter leadership than we had.
"Try that with Oracle. "No, Oracle, I hate your tech support. Starting tomorrow, I'm going to have Sybase support our Oracle installation." Oracle will laugh at you, then double your support costs for your insolence."
On the other hand, I have heard of IBM global services supporting Oracle on Solaris with Intel based Windows clients, despite having competitive products to each of those. Of course if Oracle started crashing they'd certainly be unable to fix the problem (no source code access would do that) and probably just refer you to the DB2 sales team. :-)
Parent
Its because of trust (Score:5, Insightful)
For me personally what it comes down to is trust.. I trust that my data won't get corrupted in Oracle.. in 8 years i've never seen an Oracle bug which caused data corruption.
I have no faith in mysql.... I would not trust it as far as I could throw the printed source code. There are too many gotchas (I think everyone has seen that link by now..) I personally believe anyone who uses mysql for mission critical databases is not thinking straight. Sure, if your a startup and you can't afford anything else I might forgive you.
I have faith in postgresql... I don't have enough experience with it to trust it like I do Oracle but from everything I have read it seems like a very solid database in which 90% of the applications out there could easily run on.
Unfortunately we have to use oracle for our mission critical databases because we support financial systems and the software is only available for Oracle. As new projects crop up tho, I do encourage adoption of postgresql.
Parent
Re:How much would google have spent (Score:5, Insightful)
Not true. As you scale a system like Google, administrative costs are one of the fastest things to scale.
Cringly may have described this scaling of administrative costs best when he wrote: [pbs.org]
"Yes, because we all know that anyone who buys in bulk pays retail."
With a $25000/CPU list price on SQLServer Enterprise, even if they gave a 90% volume discount it'd still exceed the hardware costs. I guess >90% discounts are possible from Microsoft for some of the government contracts they're afraid to lose, but I'd guess they're pretty rare in the US at least.
Parent
Not freedom? (Score:5, Insightful)
Copy it, distribute it, change it
Re:Not freedom? (Score:5, Insightful)
Have you ever programmed in Delphi? How many of the bugs you encounter are just trivial, and you would easily fix them on the spot? Delphi is just ridden by those.
Parent
Re:Not freedom? (Score:4, Insightful)
If your NT 3.5 server which has been running in a corner for years dies you may be screwed, but if your old redhat 5.1 box has a bug you have a much better chance of being able to fix it.
Speeking of Freedom, today is Independence day here in Israel so I'm off to a neighbor to have a cookout and spend time with my neighbors.
Parent
Come on! (Score:4, Funny)
Less dependence on vendors (Score:4, Interesting)
Since it wasn't mentioned in the summary, I'll post it here. The key advantage they found was less dependence on vendors. <flamebait> Something Linus recently found out :) </flamebait>
Myself, I use KDE on Linux because it gives me the best environment to code in. I used to use Windows, and have a Mac OS X laptop, and find them both awkward compared with KDE. I really don't get why they are considered miles better for the desktop than Linux. Linux was okay for me on the desktop eight or nine years ago, and it's come on leaps and bounds since then. I'd happily pay for Linux, but I wouldn't pay for Windows.
Re:Less dependence on vendors (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, something which Linus's elaborate multi-year plan succeeded in bringing to the attention of media organisations and companies everywhere.* A masterstroke of sheer genius - take up a closed source solution despite all the warnings it would be yanked away at a later date, then gasp in public horror when it's yanked away at a later date. What a wonderful case study for companies evaluating closed vs open source.
* Well, they do say winners get to write the history books...
Parent
Exit Strategy (Score:5, Insightful)
Customers hate making technology decisions with little to no technology background. Make them feel safe by telling them they can make a bad decision and not get screwed.
Usually better designed... (Score:4, Insightful)
Main saving is Ease (Score:5, Interesting)
Can I move an install to another PC and not break the license?
Can more then one user use the software on a PC without problems?
Will license structure XYZ or ZYX suit a particular company better in the long run?
do i get the lite version or premium version?
will it's copy protection/activation become a problem?
All this is totally gone with GPL licensing, the answer is basically I can do whatever bar sell it (In my case I dont modify and code, so that doesnt come into play).
I also find the quality of open source products much higher then that of commercial software, irfanview I reccomend to anyone wanting to make minor changes to digital pics, and in batches, works well and is free.
Re:Main saving is Ease (Score:5, Informative)
Why "bar sell it" ? There is nothing in the GPL whatsoever that prevents you from selling a piece of GPL software for whatever price you can get.
Parent
Mod article up (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the biggest drains on any IT department has to be keeping track of licenses - how many people are using what (the whole "license pool" idea is a waste of otherwise useful time and resources), having to ask Bill every time you need to add a new server to a cluster, having a piece of software in a state of suspended animation because the vendor hasn't returned any of your calls... The financial cost does enter into this, but the real issue is just that you can't do what you want when you want to.
Just in case the article is slashdotted (Score:4, Informative)
As nearly everyone knows, open source software is a low cost alternative to proprietary software. For example, the open source Linux operating system is commonly seen as a low cost alternative to Microsoft's Server 2003 operating system, or Sun's version of Unix. The popularity of open source is seen in the fact that today the largest market share for web servers is held by the open source Apache system.
One might think, therefore, that the key advantage of open source software is its low cost of ownership. But visitors to our website didn't think so.
Open Source Does Have Advantages
Our survey offered respondents a choice of five advantages for open source.
Before we discuss at the topmost advantage of open source, let's look at what respondents are not saying.
Even though advocates of open source products such as Linux tout its security, only 3% of repondants ranked "higher level of security" as the key advantage of open source in general. In addition, although open source software is by definition open to user modification, only 17% of respondents ranked "easier to customize" as the key advantage.
Furthermore, only 14% of respondents thought that open source had no significant advantages over proprietary software.
Free is not free
So, what is the top advantage of open source? The leading vote-getter was "reduced dependence on software vendors" at 44%, followed by "lower total cost of ownership" at 22%. Although these were the top two vote-getters, it is enlightening that respondents valued reduced dependence on software vendors by a two-to-one margin over lower cost.
The second place ranking for "lower cost" indicates that IT decision makers recognize that open source software is not really free. With most types of software, administration and support costs overshadow initial software license cost and annual maintenance feesthe costs that are minimized by open source. Therefore, software buyers do not see the low or zero initial cost of open source as its most important advantage.
Whether open source software is less costly to administer than proprietary software depends largely on a ready pool of resources trained on the system, the availability of administration tools that allow system administrators to manage a greater number of systems, and the number of version upgrades and patches that are issued by the developer. In this regard, open source software may have little if any advantage over proprietary software, although the situation varies from application to application. Therefore, low cost, although important, is not the key advantage of open source.
Valuing independence
The survey indicates that IT decision makers value "reduced dependence on software vendors" as the most important advantage of open source. This indicates that software buyers must feel some level of dependence on proprietary software vendors, from which they desire freedom. Such dependence includes reliance on the vendor for maintenance and support and the necessity for the buyer to accept version upgrades that the buyer may not need or want.
For example, when Microsoft announces a new version of its Windows Server operating system, it invariably phases out support for older versions of the system. Users that are satisfied with older versions of Windows will be eventually forced to upgrade if they want to continue receiving vendor support. In contrast, there is no forced upgrade cycle with open source. Older versions of open source products continue to be supported through the open source community and third party support providers as long as there is demand in the marketplace for such support.
Our survey indicates that vendors of proprietary software are missing the mark when they argue that open source software has a higher total cost of ownership, is less secure, or higher risk in terms of ongoing support. These factors, although important, are not the key concern of software buyer
Evident to anyone in large corporation... (Score:5, Interesting)
Who's footing the bill? (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, having to deal with vendor $*#@ all day long was a real hassle. One thing that bugs the hell out of me with proprietary software is the lack of user input - some of the tools we used were klunky and broken, but they were the only tools that would work with a particular vendor. New features were useless, while good features were left out. Upgrades were often painful.
If I were considering a purchase for a large business or government, I'd be more worried about the vendor lock in than cost too.
Re:Who's footing the bill? (Score:4, Interesting)
What bugs me is paying permium fees and getting all that. It's one thing to be handed the package and knowing I'm on my own. It's another thing to be paying good money for "support" only to still find out I'm on my own.
Parent
Re:Who's footing the bill? (Score:4, Insightful)
1) Build software the way you want it.
2) Customers have complaints and suggestions.
3) You fix software in the way you think is best for the customer.
4) Customers complain that it still isn't what they wanted.
5) You tell the customer that they dont' really want what they think they want.
6) Customers threaten to find another vendor and terminate their purchases and support contracts.
7) Developers grumble about how stupid the customers are.
8) Some money man (account manager, sales person, upper management guy) puts some friction on the developers.
9) Developers begrudgingly cave-in and modify the software to the way the customer wanted all along.
10) Produce a completely new major version of your software, without really listening to your cutomers or learning from their complaints about the previous software.
11) Customers complain about how your new software is lacking what they were complaining about wanting in the original version that you originally fixed and that you didn't consider putting into the new version.
12) Process starts all over again.
Parent
Almost tricked me... (Score:5, Funny)
I'm sorry, but you'll have to use a better adjective than "startling" to get past my click-filter...
less dependence on vendors = lower cost (Score:5, Insightful)
With most proprietary software, there is a high cost of switching to a different vendor, and software vendors use that "pain threshold" to charge more than they would in a competitive market.
Another cost resulting from vendor dependencies are the costs and risks associated with forced upgrades by the vendor, or, worse, the vendor going out of business altogether.
So, the survey is right: less vendor dependence is a big advantage of FOSS, in addition to lower TCO. One just shouldn't forget that less vendor dependence isn't just a convenience, it, too, translates into dollars and cents.
Not a scientific survey? (Score:5, Funny)
The real advantage (Score:5, Interesting)
Sure beats the shit out of sitting on hold with Microsoft for 2 hours, only to get grilled and having to convince them that you are not trying to steal product, only to get charged for support that ultimately ends up with fdisk/format.
Granted that not all of those problems are Microsoft's fault, but in my experience, they could have done some freakin troubleshooting before telling me to backup, reinstall, and restore. At least the F/OSS community will have an extensive reference to
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe the advantage is that F/OSS tends to me more modularized, and thus you are more likely to rescue an installation by fixing one component... Thoughts anyone?
Re:The real advantage (Score:4, Insightful)
My bad for not being even more clear (though I don't know how much clearer I could be). I am referencing the Indian guy at Microsoft's 1-800 number who we paid damned good money for with our support contract. A guy who is supposed to be able to solve my problems, not argue with me about whether my corporate license key for Windows XP Pro is valid (it is, by the way) and then insult me by telling me that I will need to pay additional monies to solve my problem because it is not covered by the contract.
On top of that, he wants to tell me to reinstall? Shit, I could have done that in 25% of the time it took to even get through to this joker.
You clearly have never had to deal with people from a vendor's support department, a department that you you paid damned good money to have available to solve your problems only to consistently tell you that you need to nuke the box and start over, but only *after* you have agreed to pay even *more* money.
Maybe you should get some real-world context before posting some crap like that. mmmmmmmmmmmmmkay? Thanks. Oh, by the way, why the hell should I read the Microsoft Developer Network documentation when I am trying to figure out why a fucking machine won't boot after applying XP SP2? Like I said, please get a clue.
Parent
Stallman was right. (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't from the Eric Raymond "Open Source is a better development model" school of software, this is "My freedom matters", even if that freedom is as much a strong economic advantage as much as anything else.
My clients like OSS because it's OPEN (Score:4, Insightful)
They use it because they don't want vendor lock in and they like being able to hire people to customize it when they need to.
Their happy, I'm happy, we're all happy. OSS all around!
Although I must say some of my more financialy concerned clients avoid OSS like the black death for some reason. I still haven't figured that one out.
Freedom and Money (Score:4, Insightful)
Freedom from vendor lock-in = Freedom to negotiate
benajamin
a more scientific survey (Score:5, Informative)
One thing I found curious: "industries that treated software as a commodity were less likely to have open-source deployments." Again, a bit backwards from what one might expect. There were also, reportedly, a surprising number of respondents who said that the ability to customize the software was important. This may be related.
Indisputable information (Score:4, Interesting)
Rather than thinking about how wrong these idiot people are and spouting off about how super wonderful your Linux experience has been, let's consider why these answers were presented.
As a Linux User, I would have selected a different list of priorities in the survey:
- Security
- Customization
- Cost of Ownership
- Vendor independence
NOTE: Vendor independence goes on the bottom because you are still hooked into some variation of vendor dependency based on RPM/DEB packaging and configuration approaches. Minor at best.What I find really shocking about this is the idea of Security. Apparently an undertanding of Security is rather lacking with the survey group. It's so contradictory to my experiences that I'm not even sure how they could have gotten there. But it needs a little more noise from the Open Source advocates.
Results are startling?? (Score:5, Insightful)
The ordered results where:
I don't know about you, but I don't find these startling at all. Vendor lock-in generally sucks and can be a huge headache. It also supports the idea that Free (as in speech) is more important than free (as in beer).
Re:Not suprising at all... (Score:5, Informative)
I have one customer who paid $30k for a point of sale system (5 terminals), was paying probably $5000/year in reseller support costs, etc. And it isn't that great of a system! Furthermore the vendor will only support the reseller who originally sold the unit, so he is married to them for support.
Not so with FOSS.
Parent
Re:Not suprising at all... (Score:4, Informative)
Why would it need to? SQL-Ledger is more than capable of doing the accounting. Take a look at it: here [sql-ledger.org]
2. Handles integrated credit card processing... through with merchant services?
Forthcoming. Have a customer who just agreed to pay me to develop this feature.
3. Handles all standard POS hardware, such as card swipes, receipt printers, pin pads, cash drawers, pole displays, and touchscreens?
Touchscreen (keyboardless) support forthcoming (assuming my current lead pans out for sponsorship of this feature). Card readers, barcode readers, pole displays, receipt printers, cash drawers, etc. are currently supported.
Honestly, most of this is *really easy.* Barcode readers are currently only supported as decoded signals via keyboard wedge interfaces. Same with mag card readers. We support the Logic Controls PD3000 pole display, but others could be added with minimal work.
Printer redirection is also supported btw. So if you want all your restaurant orders to print to a printer in the kitchen, this is relatively easy to impliment.
For example, one of my customers is using a computer with insufficient RAM as a terminal to the main server. The printer and pole display redirection allows them to redirect it to the terminal even though the application is run via firefox on the main server!
4. Can be easily taught in less than 5 minutes?
Yep
Well, the online cash till countout report might take another 5 minutes... But that is currently being worked on.
We are currently working on resolving the last three critical bugs before release.
Honestly, the currently supported features so far cost approx $2000 in development time. This is nowhere even near the high 5 digits you speak of because SQL-Ledger, while its architecture (CGI) may seem at odds with the environment is really solid, and can be easily extended to provide for all this.
Forthcoming features (ones that people have agreed to pay for at the moment) include:
1) Portable data terminal support for receiving and inventory adjustment
2) Cashier-based roaming till.
3) Integrated credit card processing
4) Movie rental application
5) Coffee card discount app (as in every 10th espresso is free of charge)
6) Credit card processing with a DBI/DBD-like model (allowing for easy expansion for additional gateways).
Likely features within the next year:
1) Keyboardless operation
2) Restaurant module
3) Bookstore module (online ordering, books in print, etc)
4) Online shopping card module.
Parent
Re:But... (Score:5, Insightful)
For example, a programmer's time is only worth so much money. Let's say that time goes into a mediocre piece of proprietary software. The world turns and either the code is maintained to its late death or it is forgotten. Either way, the value of that programmer's time, expressed in the code, is very much limited by their ability, the platform, etc. This applies not only to the actual code expressions, but the design, algorithms, and general ideas in the that project. The programmer's time is locked into the IP owner's evaluation of the project's value. Essentially, this one buyer assumes the value of the programmer's time and fixes it.
Take the same scenario, but have the programmer work on an OSS project. With the OSS codebase, the programmer's time is now placed into a repository that can - *potentially* - be shared. The code can be incrementally modified by those who have need/desire to extend or fix it. The maintenance cost can (*potentially*) be lower, as the work can be distributed. The design and algorithms can be reused and spread. Ideas are portable, and OSS ports ideas across intellectual property formats. Now the programmer's time is not fixed by the intial buyer. It is left to the market - everywhere that code is accessed.
The programmer who works exclusively on proprietary code is limited by artifical restrictions. The value of their time - the capacity of their work to generate money - is limited by the company, the licensing, etc. With OSS, the possibility exists for their work to generate money beyond these limits. Firms, individual users, and other programmers can potentially find value in that programmer's work. The value of a programmer's time can be valued according to the full merit of the work (not just licensing binaries, for example) at a more realistic market price (i.e. a price met with better knowledge of the product and lower transaction costs).
Parent
Re:But... (Score:5, Insightful)
The 44% of visitors who viewed lower dependence on vendors as the most important may also believe that FOSS is free, or they may. We don't know. We just know that for them, reduced dependence on vendors is more important than lower cost. The same can go for any other choice.
In fact, 100% of visitors may believe that FOSS costs less. But only 22% of them see it as their first priority. I don't see how they can assume that visitors who don't see cost as the key advantage must believe that FOSS isn't really free, unless they're rabid Adam Smith fans.
Parent
Basic economic clue (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, there used to be a saying about Linux at one point: Linux is only free if your time is worth nothing. This isn't a bash against Linux or OSS: _nothing_ is really free, not even a pirated copy of Windows.
Can a "free" (as in beer) solution be actually more expensive than a proprietary expensive one? Yes, quite easily in fact: if it costs enough extra hours to use/admin/whatever, it _is_ actually more expensive.
Extreme example: consider (A) using an expensive CAD package like AutoCAD for some 5,000 Euro or so, versus (B) using a pencil and ruler for some $5 (assuming more than one pencil used). Which is cheaper? Well, once you factor in the cost of labour, actually the AutoCAD way may actually be cheaper.
Less extreme example: MS Office vs Open Office. If you're in a position where you must accept MS Office documents (e.g., your main customer is a big corporation and your choices are accept the Excel documents it sends you or go bankrupt), Open Office might actually not be cheaper. The effort to convert those documents and deal with conversion problems, can actually cost you more in wages than you saved by not buying MS Office.
Basically anyone who can claim with a straight face that _any_ solution, OSS or otherwise, is free as in 0$ doesn't have a fucking clue what he/she/it is talking about. It's not about being a "rabid Adam Smith fan", it's just about having the most bare minimum clue of economics.
Parent
Vendor independence given most weight (Score:4, Insightful)
Modern Linux distros (and other similar) operating systems are easier to install, configure and maintain that the MS variants I've observed.
However, the point of the survey was not that they don't value a good deal, they do. The point was that people give independence from vendors more weight. That leads to a similar topic which is not open source but open protocols and data formats.
Parent
Re:Vendor independence given most weight (Score:5, Informative)
Maybe for you and me, but for an IT department built around Windows with experienced windows administrators that is definitely not the case. I've seen Nix geeks struggle with basic problems in Windows and Windows geeks struggle with basic problems in Nix. Its all relative and your data point is not true for everyone.
Parent
Re:Basic economic clue (Score:4, Insightful)
Certainly. This does not surprise anyone. You are kicking in open doors.
*but* In general the costs associated with OSS software scales much better than those with Proprietary software.
For example, If you need 100 Licenses, rather than 1, this will with proprietary software generally cost you something like a factor of 25 more. (you get a volume-discount offcourse)
But if you need a special adaption in OSS (say a program translated to your language) this will cost exactly the same whether you use that program on one computer or on 1000.
Practical result: For "small shops" adaption is expensive, in most cases prohibitively expensive. A home-user could never finance say the translation of KDE into a new language in order to be able to use it.
For "Big shops" on the other hand, it looks different. Norway is a small country, less than 5 million people, a few hundred thousand thereof are attending primary school.
If there was some program which they wanted to use, but which needed translation (say it was only available in english) the costs would be literally *cents* for each schoolkid. Even if the software was only used for say 3rd - 6th grade *AND* only say 10% of the schools used this software at all, it'd still be cheap to translate it, likely much cheaper than buying any proprietary solution.
Parent
Re:But... (Score:4, Interesting)
What's odd is that the headline of that article captured the results perfectly, but the article failed to explain it properly.
Parent
Re:But... FUD (Score:5, Insightful)
Really? All the survey proves is that they think less dependance on a vendor is more important than the fact the software itself may be free. It doesn't mean that it isn't free. Where did they get that conclusion from?
Some businesses may insist on having their software supported to the hilt and paying for it whereas others will get by without paying for support, the way businesses may sometimes get by using pirate software without support. They may not care as long as it works for them most of the time. If something breaks they just re-install it. Where I work we still use Win95 for some things. Is that supported? It's just never connected to the internet.
Parent
Re:But... (Score:5, Interesting)
> that needs basic desktop machines, the overhead
> in say, going with an OS OS will far exceed any
> price savings.
And what sort of "overhead" might that be? A modern Linux distro practically installs and configures itself, comes with boatloads of software, and does not require an advanced degree to sit down and start using for everyday (non-development) purposes.
My last Linux installation took about 1/3 the time of my last Windows installation (on the exact same, very recent hardware) and the Linux installation included setting up hardware, networking, and installing many common personal/small biz apps such as office suite, browser, email, IM, etc. The Windows install did not include any of these "extras", all of which must be done *in addition to* the OS install for a Windows box.
The last time I installed Windows, it took me roughly a day and a half to have everything ready to roll so I could get some work done. The Linux installation took maybe a couple of hours to achieve the same goal. In spite of the fact that I have about 8-10 times more experience using Windows than I do using Linux.
Sure some of the apps are a little different, but most of them have a little "Help" clicky-widget in the program menu just like any Windows app does.
My experience is that the myth that Windows has a lower TCO than Linux is just that, a myth. *Particularly* in the SOHO space.
Parent
Re:But... (Score:4, Interesting)
I do agree that most competent distros are usable for standard desktop applications (internet, office, etc). However, I don't think it's fair to whine about Windows not coming with any applications. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. First you complain that Microsoft has an unfair advantage with bundling their apps. You want them to be forced to unbundle their apps. Then after they unbundle their apps you complain that Windows doesn't come bundled with any apps. I think Microsoft did have an unfair advantage in bundling their apps, but I'll be damned if my government is going to force them to bundle competitor's apps.
Parent
Re:But... (Score:5, Informative)
Linux, FreeBSD, and Solaris all do just that, thanks.
> First you complain that Microsoft has an unfair
> advantage with bundling their apps. You want them
> to be forced to unbundle their apps. Then after
> they unbundle their apps you complain that
> Windows doesn't come bundled with any apps.
Who is "you" here? I didn't say that. But now that you bring it up... (see below)
> I think Microsoft did have an unfair advantage in
> bundling their apps, but I'll be damned if my
> government is going to force them to bundle
> competitor's apps.
More stuff I didn't say. But now that you bring it up...
1. No government forces any of the the OSes I use (not even Windows) to bundle certain apps, so this is a straw man.
2. I never asked the government to do so, either. (See #1.)
3. The difference between what you get in a typical Free OS install and Windows is that the Free OS offers you *choices*. Would you prefer OpenOffice.org, KOffice? (AbiWord? Gnumeric?) Kopete or Gaim? Kchat, Konversation, KSirc, or XChat? KDE or Gnome? (or FWM, WindowMaker, CDE, Java Desktop, IceWM, etc.?) Mozilla, Konqueror, or Opera? Mozilla Mail, KMail, Pine, Thunderbird, or Evolution? And so on. Each of these will do the job, each has its own bells & whistles (or lack thereof).
Parent
Re:But... (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:But... (Score:4, Interesting)
I suppose what you might have meant to say is that Linux gives you choices of these extras, and were installed through various packages off the cd, which there were probably several of due to the added bulk of all the software you could ever need.
What sort of work do you do that requires IM btw? It seems to me that it might take 2 hours tops to install xp, an office suite, browser, e-mail, etc. , unless you count the updates, which you didn't mention (if you did I would understand more where you're coming from, updating sucks!).
Umn... that really depends on the distro. Having friends who are gentoo advocates, I can promise you that some distro's aren't the kind of thing you can just download and install and run. On the other hand, mandrake^H^H^Hiva is about as basic as they come.Overall, yes, some linux installs are easier than windows installs, assuming you like the bundled software. But then again, I happen to have Windows XP Install ISO that has been updated to SP2, which would GREATLY cut back on the install time.
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Mod parent up (Score:5, Insightful)
Furthermore, cost savings isn't really an advantage from the IT department's viewpoint.
OTOH, reduced dependence on a vendore, more inhouse work, etc. These are in the intrests of the IT departments, and these are major advantages. Furthermore, I suspect that you get a *much* better ROI with FOSS simply because so much more of the expense is aimed at making the software fit your business processes rather than the other way arount.
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Re:All Good Software is Lock-In (Score:5, Interesting)
Let me tell you what it's like in the real world, using two real world situations I've had to cope with a number of times in my career:
Here's the deal. You've got a ticketing/dispatch system that isn't cutting the mustard, and what's worse, the fine print of the license says that to be in compliance, you need to cut even more functionality, or pay an extra three mill a year. Not even the database schema is available for examination, so you can't jump ship to another vendor, or more reasonably in this day and age, hire a couple of Java geeks and roll your own web app.
Here's the deal II. You've got a mission critical messaging application that can't keep up with demand, pounding the little windows box it's on so hard it keeps falling over. You'd like to put it on one of the big mama-jama Sun Enterprise clusters you've got sitting around with spare capacity. Too bad, the tiny company who licensed it to you had to auction off the sofas in the break room on ebay to meet payroll, and can't really afford to develop a Sun version. Or the megaconglomerate you licensed it from couldn't be bothered to recompile and test on Sun for a single customer.
If it's open source, it's likely someone's already compiled, tested and put it out as a tarball for Solaris10. It's even more likely it's written in a portable language like Java, PHP or Python, using your choice of OSS RDBMS and web server software, making the platform it's deployed upon irrelevant.
Massive changes to infrastructure happen, happen often, and happen for sound business reasons. Closed source applications get in the way of an agile and profit-making IT environment.
SoupIsGood Food
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