The Unemployed Working on OSS Projects

Roger_Explosion writes "In Australia the unemployed have to fulfill a 'mutual obligation' requirement in order to receive welfare payments. What this means is that recipients of welfare payments have to be involved in some sort of activity that improves their chances of finding employment. Until now this has included various types of community service and training and education programs. Recently an organisation called CommunityCode has been established to allow recipients to fulfill this requirement by contributing to OSS projects."

Sounds like a great idea

[Thornkin (93548)]

It sure beats community service. I've long maintained that the way to learn to code is by coding. As someone who does hiring into programming positions, I know I would look highly at someone who spent his downtime working on OSS projects.

Re:Sounds like a great idea

[d.valued (150022)]

I'm going to take the contrarian view on this one.

Yes, it'll help the job skills of the unemployed. But, who's going to keep those highways clean? Who's going to bring meals to the elderly?

(Take it as Funny or Sarcastic. I'm too damned tired to know which hemisphere's in charge.)

Bloody OSS Bludgers

[Timesprout (579035)]

Bludgers is such a great word

Re:Bloody OSS Bludgers

[Pyr05x (852964)]

Don't mod this flamebait, because its not.

"Bloody dole bludgers" is an Aussie slang phrase describing people on welfare ('the dole' here down under... not sure why we call it that) with no intention of trying to find a job.

And I agree... Bludgers is one of the coolest words ever :)

Re:Bloody OSS Bludgers

[wookyhoo (700289)]

dole
n.
1. Charitable dispensation of goods, especially money, food, or clothing.
2. A share of money, food, or clothing that has been charitably given.
P Pronunciation Key (dl) 3. Chiefly British. The distribution by the government of relief payments to the unemployed; welfare.

Re:Bloody OSS Bludgers

[!the!bad!fish! (704825)]

... not sure why we call it that

Because that is what the word means. [google.co.uk]

This is heaps good

[log2.0 (674840)]

If I were to be unemployed, this is exactly what I would do! Imagine having all this spare time (since you have no job) to work on any OSS project you want.

Having said that, the dole (what we call welfare here) is pretty low. I think its about 100USD a week? (for all those US people ou there)

Re:This is heaps good

[lukewarmfusion (726141)]

As opposed to job hunting?

That's only half-serious. I know folks that don't spend enough time looking for a job, and that's why they're still unemployed. Sometimes they enjoy being unemployed more than the paycheck that a job would bring in.

On the other hand, the obvious benefit to this kind of work is that you can build your resume and skillset by working in the field, even without having that job.

fine code

[hool5400 (257022)]

Stoners and dole bludgers, what wonderful code they will create!

Re:fine code

[by Anonymous Coward]

I bet they'll just write a bunch of slack ware.

Re:fine code

[hugzz (712021)]

From what I can gather, there are far too many skilled programmers around with no jobs because they lack a little peice of paper which costs them many thousands of dollars saying that they've been to uni

This comunity code thing could let them use their real skills (rather than having to do mowing for their dole), and also will probably add something nice to their resume to maybe get them moving in the job market.

REDS!

[Jukashi (240273)]

What happens when the aussie economy does better with a legion of state sponsored oss programmers? Awesome!

Re:REDS!

[MIcroswipe (149156)]

Maybe the Aussie companies will keep more programmers employed since everyone you lay off will go out and code for your oss competitor.

State sponsored OSS

[jesterzog (189797)]

What happens when the aussie economy does better with a legion of state sponsored oss programmers?

I think it's worth considering that for any company that produces closed source commercial software, there will probably be many others that could benefit from and improve their productivity with good open source software, but can't necessarily afford to pay for the developers themselves, nor the commercial counterparts.

Before jumpling to conclusions that it's state-sponsored competition, I think that this angle should be considered. The economy is made of more than just the commercial software production industry, just as the IT industry encompasses more than simply commercial software development.

Is this worth state sponsorship? Perhaps, or perhaps not, or maybe it's at the very least a good place for interested people to be while they're between paid work, as the article suggests.

Keep in mind that contributing to OSS while on a benefit doesn't release someone from their obligations of getting off the benefit, nor should it. It does give the appropriate people an activity in which they can maintain their skills whilst they're looking for other work. I think this organisation is mostly trying to formalise it, to make it a credible and understood activity for government agencies.

I think that it's great as an option

[mph_az (880372)]

however, I think that if you make it mandatory (no idea if tfa says either way) then I think this could create some very serious damage to any open source unlucky enough to get coerced 'help'.

also, bear in mind that before you drool over the prospect of conscripts to do the grunt work in X.org or kde that any program worthwhile would probably allow them to choose which projects to help out in; and if they all decide that the best way to spend their time is to develop and perfect a tcl front end to cdrecord, that's their choice.

Frankly, I'd prefer that OSS help remain completely voluntary. Getting half-hearted help is worse than getting no help at all.

Re:I think that it's great as an option

[qewl (671495)]

A lot of times code has to go through a lot of strict review by the app's board before it can be implemented into the OSS. But, even if most of the learning coders' code wasn't implemented, they would still learn something which would be beneficial to their overall knowledge and ability to find a job. And there is always a need for people to write hardware drivers.

Re:I think that it's great as an option

[awful (227543)]

It wouldn't be mandatory - the way "mutual obligation" is supposed to work is that Centrelink is supposed to try and find you a position that matches your interests and skills. Of course if you have no skills or interests you run the risk of being put to work picking up litter by the side of the road.

In my brother's case, he was interested in audio-engineering. Centrelink placed him as a volunteer producer in a community radio station, and from there he got a job at a mastering studio.

So in the case of coding for OSS projects - it would be voluntary. And even if someone did provide half-hearted help (i.e. bad code) there's no obligation on the part of the project to accept the code.

Re:I think that it's great as an option

[MoralHazard (447833)]

I missed it--where does it say that people are compelled to participate in open-source projects, or participate in volunteer programming at all?

From TFA:

Why? Recipients of Centrelink's Newstart allowance can fufil part or all of their 'mutual obligation' requirements by doing volunteer work for a community organisation; second is that it might be useful for students or other people starting out to get some "real live" development experience.

It says over and over again that this is "volunteer" work, ri

Maybe I can help

[mister_tim (653773)]

I work in the Government Department that manages that Mutual Obligation policy and the main programmes around it. But I'm just an average public servant with an interest in IT - not a programmer or IT professional.

Since they're ask for help from people who are experienced in dealing with our Department, maybe this is a way I can properly contribute to an OSS project for the first time.

Unemployed coders in Australia???

[crusty_architect (642208)]

I would be surprised to see many takers for this scheme here. The IT job market is on the way up in Australia, we actually have a coding skills shortage. If you are thinking of getting involved, please look for a job instead.

Re:Unemployed coders in Australia???

[kieronb (780769)]

On the other hand, this could be a great way to get people other than coders involved in OSS.

For example, all those projects where ther's little to no documentation because everyone involved is coding, not documenting? I'm sure there are lots of unemployed writers around.

Or projects that need to market themselves better, maybe need a sleeker looking interface or website or logo or whatever? Tap into the starving artist workforce...

Re:Unemployed coders in Australia???

[Tannii (842656)]

Where is this shortage?! I don't see it and I've looked.

As a single mum who may end up having to full fill some of this mutual obligation stuff if Little Johnny has his way, this sounds like a dream come true. Upping my coding skills, contributing to the community and actually having hope that this will help you get a job .... Wait a minute! This can't be right, since when has any of these things been involved in mutual obligation for people on government payments? Mutual obligation tasks are menial, pointless and soul destroying. I expect that this program will be barred from being classed as such very soon.

Re:Unemployed coders in Australia???

[fiddlesticks (457600)]

> If you are thinking of getting involved, please
> look for a job instead.

why? why do you care? do you think people *don't* look for jobs?

oh, now they will, you asked them to....

Well..

[BrianGa (536442)]

Maybe they can hire some of our unemployed (pre-India) tech workers.

Good idea but...

[DeathAndTaxes (752424)]

I think it's brilliant, but I don't think it'd be too long before some software consortium/lobby group/group of "concerned citizens" pulls out the whole "don't use government resources to promote the anti-competitive forces of OSS" argument. I'd bet you can expect to see legislation drafted within a year.

Re:Good idea but...

[jesterzog (189797)]

I think it's brilliant, but I don't think it'd be too long before some software consortium/lobby group/group of "concerned citizens" pulls out the whole "don't use government resources to promote the anti-competitive forces of OSS" argument.

I don't see that happening, myself. If it did, though, perhaps anyone who has a problem with it could put their money where their mouth is and volunteer to employ some of these people to work on closed source commercialised code instead.

I don't think John Howard will approve

[by Anonymous Coward]

Mutual Obligation has always been about punishment, not improving work prospects - unless the government knows there will soon be a massive demand for fence painters and tree planters.

centrelink workers

[boron boy (858013)]

Great, I can imagine trying to explain this to the centrelink workers (the people to whom you have to prove your mutual obligation).

Centrelink: so what jobs have you applied for in the last two weeks?

You: None, but i've been working on CommunityCode.org doing OSS development.

Centrelink: what?

You: I've been doing free software work to get experience and stay a productive member of society.

Centrelink: That's all well and good but I've got a job available at a chicken slaughterhouse I think you should apply for.

Groan.

Re:centrelink workers

[mister_tim (653773)]

I know that you're being funny, but in all seriousness the way to do it would probably be get it set up as a Work for the Dole [workplace.gov.au] project, by becoming a WftD sponsor [workplace.gov.au]. For it to satisfy requirements for Mutual Obligation in its own right - that would be more complex and it would pretty much need to be an official Government programme.

The other way to get ahead would be to apply for the project to apply for resources (i.e. money) through the Employment Innovation Fund [workplace.gov.au]. If it was accepted there, it would be a quick way of getting some official Government recognition and money behind it. Overall, it would go a long way if it could show that it had a training component as well as just extra experience for people who already know how to code.

The problem with this...

[wcitech (798381)]

The problem with this idea is that you will get the lower possible quality workmanship from the majority of people who contribute. Anybody who's ever done mandatory community services (and didn't get paid) can vouch that their heart wasn't in it. This might sound "fun" to an unemployed geek, but the quality of work is going to be signficantly lower than, say, somebody who WANTS to write OSS.

Disturbing.

[Sheetrock (152993)]

This might seem like an odd perspective, but if people are put out of work by the availability of open source competition and are contributing to the problem simply to remain 'on the dole', doesn't this system effectively screw professional programmers?

It's like all the negative of outsourcing without the positive of improving someone else's economy.

Re:Disturbing.

[martinX (672498)]

Given that Aussie programmers would be more likely to be out of work because of (a) PHB buying off-the-shelf software (usually made in US) or (b) having their job outsourced to another country, I'd say that the number put out of work by OSS would be less than one. At a guess.

Not necessarily

[jesterzog (189797)]

This might seem like an odd perspective, but if people are put out of work by the availability of open source competition and are contributing to the problem simply to remain 'on the dole', doesn't this system effectively screw professional programmers?

It's an interesting perspective to take. At the very least, though, I think that any argument along those lines would have to be weighed out against arguments that:

• The improvement of improved open source products, which are available for free,

Re:Disturbing.

[mcrbids (148650)]

This might seem like an odd perspective, but if people are put out of work by the availability of open source competition and are contributing to the problem simply to remain 'on the dole', doesn't this system effectively screw professional programmers?

That's a pretty big "if"... Statements like this betray a basic concept that there's a total of NN software that needs to be developed, and that any amount satisfied by OSS is that much less bread to eat by developers

However, demand for software neither fixed nor predetermined. How many jobs have been lost as a result of the free availability of communications by the Internet? See, the cost of international, interpersonal communication dropped through the floor with the Internet - what about all those lost jobs in telecommunications?

I'm sure the Internet has cost SOME people their jobs, but how many new jobs popped up out of nowhere, doing web design, Intranet sites, database work, RPC and "middleware" based on this "free" Internet technology?

OSS works much the same way. Rather than create a condition of scarcity, it instead creates an environment of plenty - plenty of ideas to explore that otherwise wouldn't due to prohibitive cost, many of which will turn out to be very profitable.

Commonly addressed needs get commoditized by OSS software - Mail servers, databases, web servers, operating systems are all or are becoming commodities. The value, then, moves up the food chain a bit to providing services on top of these commodities.

You don't make much money selling tomatoes, but you might do very well selling food cooked with tomatoes at a restaurant. Same ideas with OSS software.

News Article.

[sc0ob5 (836562)]

http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,15 083420%5E15306%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html [news.com.au]

Microsoft Beware!

[D_Lehman(at)ISPAN.or (799775)]

Bill Gates is pushing for more H1-B's, even with the US computer engineer unemployment rate higher than the national average (which is the real reason colleges are seeing fewer apply for CS degrees). Beware Bill and every other software company out there, if the US ever followed suit. They might just get paid by the state to code your competition.

I wish I could fill out an application to be an (oxymoron) paid/unemployed OSS worker. :D

I for one like this idea

[inflex (123318)]

As a small business developer, I would love this sort of thing.

Quite often it's very hard to get people to do some work without forking out large amounts of money and you're not always sure about the end results (I've had some really terrible code handed in by contractors - worse than even mine).

I have quite a handful of projects, all openSource which would definately gain from this sort of interaction.

Paul.

excellent

[by Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't mind being payed to live a VERY simple life and work on OSS projects that would benefit many. Many countries already have programs where they pay individuals to keep traditional arts alive (Chine/Japan) or keep ancient religion traditions alive (Isreal), so why not keep code alive?

Seems like a plan

[jonno317 (807642)]

It seems that the comments thus far have been centered around the idea that the unemployed are being forced to work on OSS. I think it is more the idea that working on OSS is an acceptable form of community service and the like. I don't think that the arguments against the idea because of the lack of volunteering hold much water because of this. Those who choose to work on OSS to fulfill their community service responsibilities would be just as much volunteers as the rest of the OSS community. It's no different from an OSS person putting their development onto their resume. It's just using the volunteer work on the software for dual purpose.

Does it have to be code?

[Noviota (209813)]

Could the volunteers write documentation, design web sites, graphics etc. There is a lot more to an OSS Project than just the pure code!

Sysadmin and systems for the poor

[by Anonymous Coward]

I used to do something like this, in Australia. I did my "mutual obligation" (slave labour for dole payments) at Computer Bank [computerbank.org.au] Victoria [computerbank.org.au].

The goal of the project was to provide cheap (free) hardware and software to underprivledged people in Australia. We used Debian [slashdot.org] for single installs, and the KDE [kde.org] wm.

It was a fantastic experience - I learnt all about the insides of computers and how to put them together, com ports, (seemingly) thousands of types of cards (video, audio, nics) and how to configure them, etc etc - all common knowledge ot people here, but you need to start somewhere...

We started a project to give thin clients away to poorer groups (libraries/community groups/refugee action collectives or whatever) which we built from the ground up using common knowledge and the wonderful xserver. I think they have since expanded the project, but now use Mandrake/driva.

A lot of the forced vollies didn't want to be there, but for those of us that did, it was great - I spent my first month testing printers, mice, speakers and doing the last check on systems going out the door...

There are plenty of these things around, and it sure beat weeding public gardens....

Re:Sysadmin and systems for the poor

[Kylie (10668)]

:)

We still use Debian and run 'work for the dole' projects. We can also help people looking to do community work.

See http://vic.computerbank.org.au/ [computerbank.org.au]

Needs to be open to any project

[wrmrxxx (696969)]

I'm glad to see on their web site that the program is open for 'any Free Software'. If it ever turned into an arrangement where you had to work on the projects they suggested, I'd have a real problem with it. If you were an Aussie company and wanted some software developed on the cheap, you'd just fire all of your developers. They'd be forced by Centrelink onto the work for the dole scheme, and end up doing your software development for you at $4/hour or whatever the effective rate is for the 'mutual obligation' scheme.

The work for the dole system has lots of potential to be misused. It's a good thing we can trust our government to only ever do good things...

Code

[Phidoux (705500)]

if (unemployed) {
dole = dole * 2;
}
printPayslip();

When they say 'coding'

[Trogre (513942)]

I hope they also include options for writing documentation and proof-reading.

That is an area that is often lacking in OSS projects.

you're kidding...

[the-build-chicken (644253)]

...if you can't get a very well paying job as a programmer in australia at the moment then you must be a technical moron who shouldn't be let anywhere near a computer or open source software. Companies are experiencing a massive skills shortage over here at the moment...the only people this is going to attract are morons that think they can get out of doing manual labour...and that means crap code.

What a wank

Mutual Obligation != Community service.

[TapeCutter (624760)]

Mutual Obligation (aka work for the dole) is a system where after a certain time on unemployment payments, (note: disability and old age pensions are also "welfare"), the recipient must either, volenteer for a govt approved position or enrol in govt approved education (the govt then counts you as a student so thier unemployment figures look better). If a recipient does not comply then payments are curtailed or cut off. The idea is to give you some basic skills to make you more employable, it is not intended as punishment for being out of work. As far as I know picking up rubbish is NOT an approved activity.

Community service is a system where a court orders a petty criminal to do something unpleasant, like picking up rubbish from the roadside. The idea is that work is more equitable than fines. If you screw it up the court can inflict further punishment (eg: jail time).

"Dole bludger" is a derogatory term for someone who recieves unemployment payments, commonly used by self-rightous morons, right-wing politicians and current affairs reporters. All of whom have never had the soul destroying experience of dealing with a Centerlink office.

Centerlink does not run the work-for-the-dole program it is simply there to fuck up your payments and conduct endless "interviews" where they ask the same questions over and over again (eg: Are you having sex with your flatmate?). The irony of Centerlink is that it keeps thousands of unemployable busy bodies off the dole by giving them the job of handing it out.

It helps to keep your sanity

[PenguinBoyDave (806137)]

When I was unemployed, working on OSS projects gave me a purpose. After spending hours a day for nine months and slipping into depression, OSS gave me a new purpose, and a hope. I was keeping my skills sharp. I was contributing to the community. I had a reason to get up in the morning. OSS kept me sane when I thought I was going to go nuts.

This Is Not Going To Help

[$criptah (467422)]

In corporate America it is not going to help.

So, you are unemployed looking for a job. That is bad. Now you want to do something with OSS. You polish your skills, come up with something new while hoping that you'll get a job. What you don't understand that you're still nobody in a corporate world. You have better skills, but, guess what, the rest of the world will acquire those skills as well. If you're not willing to work for less, then you'll be replaced again. Go start working on another OSS project. Software engineers are quite common these days. Corporations will outsource and find workers willing to work for the lowest possible wage. As one CEO said, "...The problem with Asia is not the price, it's the fact that they [Indians, Chinese] can't work for free."

You can study and do whatever you want; however, as soon as there is somebody else who is willing to do the same for less money, you're out. Nobody gives a flying fuck if you are an OSS contributor or a genius if you don't fit the price tag. One of my friends is desperately looking for development gigs online. He found himself competing with Indians who are willing to work for less than $10/hr. Unless he lowers his price, he can't really work.

The sooner you realize your pathetic state, the better off you'll be. Instead of doing something that the rest of the world can do, try something new. Whatever you do, make sure that you have skills that are not related to IT. That will increase your chance of survival.

Re:OSS work like you work for IBM but without the

[martinX (672498)]

Because they (the bosses) can see the quality of the work you've done for another project, so then they can pay you to do their project.

It's not like every possible piece of software in the world is an OSS project. Someone may want something different.