Return-to-Office Policies Are Impacting Neurodivergent Workers (msn.com) 127
With more companies requiring workers to return to an office five days a week, "Anxiety is rising for some of the millions of people who identify as neurodivergent," writes the Washington Post.
They raise the possibility that "strict office mandates have the potential to deter neurodivergent people who may approach problems differently," the article notes — affecting peoiple "whose brains function differently, such as with ADHD, autism or dyslexia." While many neurodivergent people excel in an office, others struggle with sensory issues, an inability to focus and exhaustion, workers say... About a fifth of U.S. adults self-identify as neurodivergent, with a majority saying they always or usually feel that their brain works differently, according to a recent survey by research and analytics firm YouGov. They cite issues such as starting tasks before finishing others, being overwhelmed by social situations and struggling to focus...
Some neurodivergent workers discovered success working remotely during the pandemic and don't feel comfortable disclosing their diagnoses due to fear of and prior instances of discrimination. Sometimes being one of the few remote workers makes it easier to be forgotten.... Neurodivergent workers who spoke about their office struggles say even part-time remote work can be a game changer. They also wish leaders would seek input from them and trust them to get their work done.
They raise the possibility that "strict office mandates have the potential to deter neurodivergent people who may approach problems differently," the article notes — affecting peoiple "whose brains function differently, such as with ADHD, autism or dyslexia." While many neurodivergent people excel in an office, others struggle with sensory issues, an inability to focus and exhaustion, workers say... About a fifth of U.S. adults self-identify as neurodivergent, with a majority saying they always or usually feel that their brain works differently, according to a recent survey by research and analytics firm YouGov. They cite issues such as starting tasks before finishing others, being overwhelmed by social situations and struggling to focus...
Some neurodivergent workers discovered success working remotely during the pandemic and don't feel comfortable disclosing their diagnoses due to fear of and prior instances of discrimination. Sometimes being one of the few remote workers makes it easier to be forgotten.... Neurodivergent workers who spoke about their office struggles say even part-time remote work can be a game changer. They also wish leaders would seek input from them and trust them to get their work done.
They Wonder (Score:5, Insightful)
They Wonder why I have headphones on all day? The constant chatter. Phones ringing. People coughing. People hacking up phlegm (every 5 minutes!!!) Sounds of slurping and eating and utensils against ceramic. All. Fucking. Day.
The only time I get any peace to focus is when everyone is gone. Which is equivalent to working from home anyway.
I do not work in a busy office either. But coming home? I'm exhausted from... Something? Low quality air? Sensory overload? Who knows. leave me at home and let me get stuff done.
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You do not need to be neurodivergent to have your performance and stress levels negatively impacted by that bullshit. It just hits you even harder if you are.
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Sounds like you work in an open plan office.
I was working in a 2-3 man office (where one was hardly ever there) and then the company moved to a new location - empty desk, open plan with no fixed seating.
I left.
The 2-3 man office had been annoying enough, the one who was always there is a diabetic and he had reminders for various "must do, now" events set up to make various noises at fixed times of the day. He retired eventually.
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Low air quality is a big problem in offices. Back before I was WFH I used to have the window open all year round, after checking CO2 levels and finding them to be rather low.
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Low air quality is a big problem in offices. Back before I was WFH I used to have the window open all year round, after checking CO2 levels and finding them to be rather low.
How can that be with all the man made climate change and global warming?! /s
Re:They Wonder (Score:4, Informative)
Is that a typo? Outdoor CO2 levels are typically a little above 400 ppm, indoor levels often up to 2,000 ppm, and could be up to 5,000 ppm max for an 8-hour work day according to OSHA. Indoor levels are considered good if they're below 1000 ppm (or less than 1000 ppm above outdoor ambient, depending on the local codes). Higher is considered worse.
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Yeah I meant high.
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Are you sure you aren't the subject?
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I once had a boss that didn't allow me to wear headphones. Her opinion was that it sends the "wrong signal" that one doesn't want to be, or should not be, disturbed by others. Kind of an anti-teamwork message.
It was a real "what the fuck" moment for me.
It's worth pointing out that a lot of people didn't like that person, whether she was their supervisor or not.
Autistic here (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Autistic here (Score:5, Insightful)
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It is nothing personal. RTO was a response to people abusing WFH policies. I am sure people will abuse "neurodivergent" exception should it be implemented. Your best bet is to find a permanent remote job instead of hoping for exceptions.
Exactly. It is easier to abuse WFH than going into an office to work. And people can abuse working in an office as well.
And yes - finding work that is only WFH and won't change is the best bet for people who simply cannot abide being around other humans.
However, there is one issue. The mental image of the "neurodivergent" that so many people is not quite accurate. We had a student doing an internship with us who was pretty severe ADHD. His thought process was way different as well. No doubt he'd be la
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Finally, neurodivergent is one of those terms that get misused, like autistic. Introversion is not neurodivergent, and I think that is what a lot of the Slashdot crowd is - highly introverted
I would encourage everyone on Slashdot to go take this test [embrace-autism.com]. Especially if you're over 40 or female or a minority, because you would have been missed as a child.
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Finally, neurodivergent is one of those terms that get misused, like autistic. Introversion is not neurodivergent, and I think that is what a lot of the Slashdot crowd is - highly introverted
I would encourage everyone on Slashdot to go take this test [embrace-autism.com]. Especially if you're over 40 or female or a minority, because you would have been missed as a child.
Thanks for the link - I got a 20 on the assessment. Apparently I'm not very autistic.
As far as I can tell, my only divergent from whatever we are calling normal is that I simply cannot sit still. I fidget, I tap, I work problems in my head while interacting with others - even dream solutions - I like to get away at least once a week to mentally work problems because I keep getting interrupted. And I get bored really quickly.
I generally do like the so-called high functioning autistic people - I've worke
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Personally, my back hurts more when I'm sitting than when I'm walking around.
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I would encourage everyone on Slashdot to go take this test.
I scored 32, which is a significant score. It makes sense, given how much I've always hated socialization.
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Next step, go search YouTube for "signs of adult Autism" and watch a couple videos. Maybe you're just introverted, or maybe it'll be like, "Oh my god how did I not know this?!".
Re: Autistic here (Score:2)
It's a response to the value of rich people's commercial property portfolios declining.
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RTO was a response to beancounters paying for the overhead of having an office space.
ftfy.
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It is nothing personal. RTO was a response to people abusing WFH policies.
I don't think the evidence supports that claim. Most of it seems to be due to two factors. 1) Insecure managers who don't trust people to do work if the manager can't see them doing it. 2) Stealth layoffs, so companies can reduce headcount without having to report they're having layoffs (looks bad) or pay severance.
I'm sure there were people who abused WFH, but there are ways to deal with that. Judge people based on how much work they get done, not how many hours they spend in the office. And it really
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RTO was a response to people abusing WFH policies.
If true... basically, employers and managers being either incompetent, or just stupid? Not really a mark against WFH if employers see who is abusing WFH, doesn't fire them (or discipline them at the least), and tries to wreck WFH. If anything, anyone with a functioning brain can see the fault on employers and/or managers if that is their response rather than just dealing with the problem employees.
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Oh yeah, if all I have to say is I'm nerodivergent and I can get the thing I want, everyone is going to do it.
It's equal to saying 'I don't like working in the office, that's how my neurons work' Okay! Sign me up.
Re: Autistic here (Score:2)
So some people find it hard to handle working in an office setting, so what employers need to do is to redefine work to suit their issues? Uh, maybe?
The ADA requires, as I understand, what are called "reasonable accommodations for workers with disabilities", and let's agree for the sake of this discussion, that being neurodivergent is classified as a diagnosed disability. OK, so under the ADA, does an employer have to carve out a WFH option for the neurodivergent worker? Probably not - that likely exceeds a
Well you see... (Score:2)
The company is paying for this prime real estate in Cambridge or in Seattle or in wherever, and if you aren't in the office, then our investment is for naught.
I need both (Score:5, Interesting)
I am a diagnosed autist (and I mean diagnosed a few years ago, as an adult) and I learned during covid that I need the office environment.
Not every day, of course but once or twice a week I do, otherwise I completely lose the relationship to my company and quite frankly, I haven't seen a company yet that has communication worked out.
computer based communication is motivation-driven, meaning you need to want to communicate something, formulate it and put it in the right channel.
The involuntary conversation that is so annoying to neuro-divergent people is important, though.It's a regular occurrence that I overhear a morsel of info I can provide a solution to or solves or at least advances my own issues towards a solution.
During covid, at times I didn't feel like I was even still part of the company. It was not a good time.
Re: I need both (Score:3)
Same here - diagnosed autistic last year. I also feel like I need office time- sure I get much less work done, but its actually important to build networks, hang out with someone new for lunch and develop your allies, or people who can confirm to others you're a 'good guy' and not just a silent face hovering on a zoom call who also happens to be extremely productive. Its all totally exhausting but it is important.
what I've learnt is that neurotypicals value whether they like you way higher than anything to
Re: I need both (Score:2)
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I was diagnosed with ADHD as a teenager but I didn't react well to Ritalin and didn't pursue it. When decades later the autism diagnosis came, I expected the ADHD had been misdiagnosed.
I have become unsure lately. I do much better jumping from project to project, whereas I hate being yanked out of a thought process. Not so much by a colleague wanting to chat. That I kinda like to do from time to time. And if it's a bad moment, I just say that I'll get back to them.
But the ever growing administrative side...
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Re:I need both (Score:5, Insightful)
The involuntary conversation that is so annoying to neuro-divergent people is important, though.It's a regular occurrence that I overhear a morsel of info I can provide a solution to or solves or at least advances my own issues towards a solution.
Ineed. Quiet focus time is important to solve a difficult problem. Interactions with other people are important to make sure you're solving the right problems.
Re: I need both (Score:2)
I am not on the spectrum, but have a few other mental health issues. During covid, I found that I lost all will to work while alone at home. RTO never happened for me as my job just didn't last after 2020. I tried a hybrid job in 2023, but still couldn't handle responsibilities the 3 days home alone. Communication really broke down. I found that I really needed a few hours of daily face time to function. Now, vision problems also interfere with my ability to drive and commute. It's too many hurdles, and I
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When I worked in an office, most of my time was spent trying to figure out how to avoid doing any work. It was easy to do too. People like to socialize.
Since working from home, that problem has gone away and my productivity went through the roof.
offices today suck (Score:5, Interesting)
Let me tell you, children, of the days of yore.
From the 1950s (or before) up until the 1990s.
Professionals of all kinds who worked in offices
were all given private offices. You controlled your
own workspace, and you closed your door.
You could meet with other people either in your
office, or their office, or a dedicated meeting room.
If you were low on the totem pole, you got a tiny
office. Or maybe had to share with another person.
If you were higher up, you got an office with a window
so you could look outside. The ultimate was to get a
corner office with floor-to-ceiling windows.
You were never distracted with noise.
The distractions would be your boss coming to
randomly talk to you. The quality of your boss was
how well they understood not to interrupt you,
because they knew you were trying to think.
Parking could be an issue, as always.
In a downtown city location it could be a bitch.
I first saw cubes starting in the late 80s.
Those are jobs you decline.
Back in the good old days, the only people without
an office was the typing pool. Secretaries might or
might not have an office, depending on various factors.
I can't imagine working in today's "offices".
You would never get a fucking thing done,
and it would drive you insane.
I spent decades working partly or entirely from
my dedicated home office, being a regular
employee or self-employed consultant.
I started using the Internet (ARPANET) around 1977.
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Define "using" for me in that context. Not saying you were not part of the few places back then, just realize that most people don't understand how limited it was back then. I mean, it's possible you had a slow modem and terminal from home that connected you to "something" on ARPANET.... but, unusual. You're not the only person that dates back to "days of yore".
Re:offices today suck (Score:5, Informative)
> I started using the Internet (ARPANET) around 1977.
Define "using" for me in that context. Not saying you were not part of the few places back then, just realize that most people don't understand how limited it was back then. I mean, it's possible you had a slow modem and terminal from home that connected you to "something" on ARPANET.... but, unusual..
The way you used computers in those days was either
through "batch processing" or "interactive computing".
In batch, you had to visit your institution's computer
facility where you punched cards, handed them to
an "Operator", who eventually ran them, and handed
you back your output (printout). This would take hours
or days. Fortunately for me, I didn't have to do that.
Interactive computing is where you are "on-line".
If you had a mini-computer (about 50,000$2025)
you would sit at it, operating it through a "terminal".
The most common way to do on-line computing
was through a "terminal" that was remotely connected,
over a dial-up or dedicated line to a "time shared" computer.
Dialup line speeds were 30 character/sec by then.
(By 1980 there would be 1200 cps modems.)
A "terminal" in those days was a typewriter device.
That is, a keyboard and printer. They ran at speeds
of about 10 characters per second. By the mid 70s
some places also had screen-based terminals rather
than a typewriter. No graphics usually - just emulating
a typewriter terminal. (A few had limited line-drawing
graphics, but no bitmaps or anything.) These CRT screen
terminals could go faster than the printing ones, if you had
a faster line (max 1200 baud still), assuming the computer
could keep up. Typical faster systems might achieve an
actual service speed of about 60 chars/sec.
The most common speed was 30 cps (which is three
times faster aha most typewriter terminals).
By the mid-70s some places also had thermal-paper
printer terminals. Those were portable, and could
go almost 30 cps. They cost about 9,000$2025 and
weighed about 30 lbs. You connected to the phone line
by sticking the phone handset into rubber cups.
I say "places", not "people", because very few
people had a terminal at their house. Expensive.
Bear in mind there are no personal computers yet.
(Well, there are some prototypes at Xerox, and
there are some hobbyist microcomputers that you
could build, but few people had them and they were
not very powerful. The TRS-80 would come soon.)
You asked how I was "using the ARPANET" back then.
Well, I used it like everyone else did!
On the ARPANET, "host" computers -- which are various
flavors of time-sharing computers, were connected by
auxiliary computers called IMPs. A refrigerator sized
box that is essentially a router. There is no local
networking - that had not been invented yet.
The network backbone between IMPs was dedicated
conditioned lines provided by The Phone Company.
The backbone ran at 50 kilo-bits/second.
Your program (on the host) such as a file transfer (FTP)
would see about a tenth of that if you were lucky.
The ARPANET was restricted: research labs with military
contracts at a few universities, mainly. Not open to the
public, or even to the university in general. Each user
was authorized by that one lab at the university.
(Also of course on the network were some National Labs
doing work on nuclear weapons, a few military bases,
and a few government contractors who were involved
in designing or operating the ARPANET.)
The ARPANET connected time-sharing computers, and the
way you used it just the same way you used any time-sharing
system. You connected your terminal (typewriter or screen)
to the "host" computer through a dial-up line.
You logged into your host, and there were three main
ARPANET programs you could run. There was file transfer
(FTP), remote terminal (TELNET), and email. They were
just th
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Thanks for the write up, very interesting!
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I worked in engineering since 1980. Never had a private office, most of the time didn't even have a cubicle. No one else did, either, except for the managers and vice presidents.
I designed HVAC, plumbing, & fire protection for a lot of office buildings, and they were almost all mostly open office space, though most open offic
Offices (Score:5, Interesting)
For example, even in Windows 10 I don't remember there being links to news articles everywhere, but now a quarter of my WORKstation is trying to get me to read articles. I don't even see how companies can seriously complain about worker distraction while they continue to use an OS that is literally trying to distract you.
I used to get logged into everything I needed in the morning so I could switch from thing to thing as I did my work, but now everything times out and you can't do that. To make matters worse, now there is 2FA on everything so not only are you switching between working and logging in, but you are switching between devices to log in. So even logging into things has become a huge ordeal, especially if you are a person who is trying to avoid their phone.
As companies try to do more with fewer people it also gets harder to set aside chunks of the day to do actual work. You can try to block off times to do work in your calendar, but double booking has become common out of desperation because no one has spare time in their calendars any more.
This is just the actual work itself. Now add in people talking endlessly about stupid things. People who think taking loudly about their many accomplishments so the whole office can hear is the way to get ahead. Worrying about looking appropriate, being appropriate. Now people are able to physically intrude on you while you are working. i think if a person likes to work in an office, they are probably part of the problem. Or at the very least they don't realize how much stress it puts on them.
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I used to get logged into everything I needed in the morning so I could switch from thing to thing as I did my work, but now everything times out and you can't do that. To make matters worse, now there is 2FA on everything
Ugh yes. I need to be in four systems with differing recurrence and period in order to do my job, two of them share SSO but it is unreliable so one of them sometimes times out when it is supposed to and sometimes not for hours, and all of them have fifteen minute activity timeouts. Only one of them doesn't have 2FA; it does have other access limits. I log into two to three of them when I get in. I wind up logging in to one of them around a dozen goddamn times a day, another a half dozen... Oh yeah, and then
What is an employer's duty here? (Score:1)
If I am an employer who employs people in a job based on interacting with colleagues, am I allowed not to have to employ people with mental problems, because they will obviously be less productive, and to not pay for changes to
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Genuine question about what employers' duties and peoples' rights are here, not trying to downplay a moral obligation to help our fellow man.
Re: What is an employer's duty here? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: What is an employer's duty here? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: What is an employer's duty here? (Score:2)
You are required, in America, under the ADA to provide "reasonable accommodations", and some things can be deemed unreasonable. Ever notice how many job postings require the ability to lift 50 pounds? It's an easy, defensible requirement that would typically prevent an employer having to hire a partially paralyzed worker or one with mobility issues - of course, the job must have a physical component, you can't just say a computer programmer needs to be able to lift and carry 50 pounds...
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But not the second.
The key problem (Score:4, Insightful)
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The modern office was conceived by an architect on a budget based on the reality that walls are expensive. The rest is stuff people read off the little card in the art museum.
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And it's not just the cost of the walls, it's also the cost of having things like dedicated lighting, ventilation, and fire sprinklers for every room, plus the cost of reworking it all whenever a change is made.
Work (Score:3)
Everything that I work with, all of it, it's all web based. If I want to send a message to the person on the other side of the wall from me, I use the internet to do so. Everything that I do for clients in all web based as well. When the people that work in my office have meetings, we all sit at our desks, and meet online thru MS Team. Yet the possibility of me working from home is out, because they say that they need me in the office.
Re: Work (Score:2)
Sucks to need their job, doesn't it.
Self-Identify - PO (Score:4, Interesting)
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Sir, we all self identity as geniuses here.
People who identify as neurodivergent (Score:1)
Use the ADA! (Score:3)
I'm mildly autistic, with an official diagnosis. This is considered a disability under the ADA, and thus employers must provide reasonable accommodation.
My employer recently started requiring everyone within 50 miles of an office to come in 2x/week, but the offices are all high-density shared workspaces - a nightmare for anyone on the spectrum. I talked to my manager, he talked to HR, and surprise, surprise, the most logical accommodation was to continue to work from home full time.
If there's one thing HR is terrified of, it's exposing themselves to lawsuits stemming from discrimination or disabilities, so use that to your advantage!
Huhhh!! (Score:1)
Just who *isn't* neurodivergent? (Score:2)
When my kids tell me I'm weird, I tell them it's hereditary.
Seriously, who exactly is "normal"?
The Universe cares not one (Score:2)
.. jot what your personal issues are. Adult better or go start your own company where you can avoid reality as much as you want.
Seriously
Neruobullshitiversion (Score:2)
Nearly everyone is neurodivergent. Haven't they always told us that everyone is unique.
Re: then drop identifying (Score:2)
This.
There is no advantage for the employees. The Internet never forgets and eventually the safe space where ND people talk about health matters can be taken away or weaponised.
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Re: then drop identifying (Score:3)
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Ok, I'll just stop saying that I have ADHD and all my problems will just go away. Didn't realize it was so simple. Thanks!
The New York Times just ran an article saying that ADHD is bullshit
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Did they provide a cure for it then? Because if so I would really like to know what it is.
They more or less said we have been medicating people to alleviate boredom. The same people are just fine when doing something that doesn't bore them. So the cure is do something you find interesting.
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Re: then drop identifying (Score:2)
Perhaps it isn't everyone else's job to try and keep you entertained? Just a thought...
Re: then drop identifying (Score:2)
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The cure is to stop using special labels and adapt to your environment, or find a different environment that is more to your liking.
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Well, tough shit!
Re: then drop identifying (Score:2)
Re: then drop identifying (Score:2)
Re: then drop identifying (Score:2)
Employers make reasonable accommodations, and so must the worker. If a person in a wheelchair is hired to work in a group that is located on the second floor of a building without an elevator, the employer could be required to provide a suitable workplace on the second floor, but the worker has to find a way to get over the feeling of isolation being separated from the rest of their group.
Forcing the employer to add an elevator or to move the company to a new building with an elevator isn't "reasonable" in
Re:Fucking millennials (Score:5, Insightful)
I thought the point of civilization was to improve quality of life for the members of civilization, not to just do the same old thing over and over because that's how it's always been done. Why do you hate progress?
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Pampering the handicaped is not helping civilization. On the contrary, it's dragging it down.
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You must have cheered for that scene in Animal Farm when the work horse was dragged off to the glue factory after wrecking his back.
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Bingo!
Re: Fucking millennials (Score:2)
Re: Fucking millennials (Score:2)
The obvious solution is to make "more free time for everyone" the default. There's actually companies who do that, there has been a large scale study in the UK about it, most of them are happy about it and continue having less working hours for the same salary. It's been posted here before.
Re: Fucking millennials (Score:2)
Shocking, employees are happy working fewer hours for the same pay - they really felt they needed to do a big study to find out what people would think of fewer hours and same pay?
Are these the kinds of studies Harvard is doing for the billions of federal dollars we hand them year after year?
Re: Fucking millennials (Score:2)
"the point of civilization was to improve quality of life for the members of civilization"
Generally, the point of societies and civilizations was to simply have more people "on your side" so that the group over there didn't come off here and take your stuff/enslave you.
That's it.
If you're expecting more of civilization, you're going to be disappointed.
Not under techno feudalism (Score:2)
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"I thought the point of civilization was to improve quality of life for the members of civilization,"
What made you think that (a) civilization had a point, (b) that was the point, or (c) that anybody thought up front about what civilization is supposed to do?
Civilization happened. That's all that you can reasonably say. Might turn out to be that civilization leads to hive mind... or back to anarchy. And you could conclude that was the point with the same level of certainty as concluding that the point is t
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I thought the point of civilization was to improve quality of life for the members of civilization
It is; however, you appear to be under the mistaken impression that you are part of the civilization. You are not. You are a mechanism, a cog if you will. Machinery does not get consideration.
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Yes. This. Right here.
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From the TFA: "adults self-identify as neurodivergent"
Let me translate this for you: Oh, no, I actually don't have a diagnosed condition (as in certified by a qualified medical doctor), I just feel like I'm being neurodivergent. It's the latest thing, you know!?
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Re: Fucking millennials (Score:2)
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Suck it up or get another job. Jobs mean working with people.
That is nonsense. There are quite a few jobs where working with people is not needed and not beneficial except in special circumstances or as a small part of the work. There are people that cannot perform on their own though and these freeriders are deathly afraid of being found out.
Re: Nobody said life would be easy (Score:2)
The ND need to find a job/workplace that suits them, not just take any job then demand the employer re-arrange everything to suit the ND worker.
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Nobody said life would be easy
Well, neither are they - nor are we talking about the whole of life either.
WFH =/= "not wirhing with people," either.
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RTO started back in 2023. Govt workers started because they had employees who didnt check in for weeks and were getting paid. Crazy amount of abuse in Washington. It was time to drain the swamp
My kid in community college had an English teacher who quit because "She was ordered to return to the office or be fired". I looked her up, she's a Veteran's Administration employee but apparently while "working remote" she was teaching at the community college.
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Yea, draining the swamp. If by swamp you mean my 401k.
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It's not "discrimination" to hold everyone to the same standard.