'I Won't Connect My Dishwasher To Your Stupid Cloud' (jeffgeerling.com) 272
A software engineer discovered that his newly purchased Bosch 500 series dishwasher locks basic functionality behind cloud connectivity, reigniting concerns about internet-dependent home appliances. Jeff Geerling found that features like rinse cycle, delayed start and eco mode on his $1,000 dishwasher require connecting to WiFi and creating an account with "Home Connect," Bosch's cloud service.
Geerling criticized the approach as potentially part of planned obsolescence, noting that without a current subscription fee, the company will likely either shutter the service or introduce payments for previously standard features.
Geerling criticized the approach as potentially part of planned obsolescence, noting that without a current subscription fee, the company will likely either shutter the service or introduce payments for previously standard features.
Sigh (Score:5, Interesting)
Yet another thing to research before buying an appliance.
Honestly, crap like this should be illegal.
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
My CPAP is internet collected, honestly, why? I brought the one model I could find with a removable modem, and it's been removed since it's been turned on. The claim is the government uses that information, for what? I don't even keep the logs on the SD card, I download them and wipe the card.
What we need is a reverse privacy policy, and reverse data collection policy, where if you collect it, you owe me a fee that I set. That will never happen,
Re:Sigh (Score:4)
The internet connectivity on your CPAP is so that your doctor can adjust the settings. The general idea is that you, as the patient, aren't supposed to be able to mess with it, though by law, they can't keep you from controlling it, yourself.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to tune it yourself, I'm just saying that this isn't what your Ear, Nose, & Throat guy wants. If you want to control it, I say go for it.
Re:Sigh (Score:4)
Re:Sigh (Score:4, Interesting)
On both of my resmed machines, you can enter in a sort of Konami code [wikipedia.org] to get it into "provider mode" where you can adjust all the settings yourself. I never take it in to anyone to adjust the settings.
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Re:Sigh (Score:4)
I'm in Ontario, Canada, it would be a headache.
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Interesting)
The reason is so that your insurance can decide to not pay for it if you stop using it. My doctor does basically nothing at my CPAP visits. They upload the data to insurance, and check the box. Then they refer me to a CPAP provider that direct bills insurance. The whole thing seems very crooked to me because my co-pay ends up being more than what it would be if I paid out of pocket. It wouldn't surprise me at all if my insurance is getting paid by the CPAP provider, instead of the other way around.
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So yes, in the case of my CPAP, I can understand it needs to connect at times. That said, it also works fine without a connection. It just stores any information that needs to be uploaded until it is near a dig
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Also for government compliance. Yes, the government watches you sleep if you have sleep apnea and want to fly a plane or be a truck driver. I have to send the whole 365 sleep logs to the feds each year.
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So yea, I would agree that there should be a law against reducing functionality that exists l
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Why would that need an internet connection? Would you need to scan the bar code every time you took something out and put something in? Even if it worked seamlessly, what possible value could that add? Home refrigerator inventory isn't a problem that needs a computer, let along an internet connection!
Are you one of those guy with an internet connected refrigerator patent from the 90's or something? Who is asking for this bizarre functionality?
Re:Sigh (Score:4, Insightful)
Why would that need an internet connection? Would you need to scan the bar code every time you took something out and put something in? Even if it worked seamlessly, what possible value could that add?
It's there to track what you buy, so it can serve up tailored ads to convince you to buy something else.
Digital signage displays (Score:5, Insightful)
Search for "digital signage displays", not TVs. They are generally more expensive, both because they're generally higher quality (If you want, you can get them rated for 24/7 use) and ads don't subsidize the purchase.
Re:Sigh (Score:4, Insightful)
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"forced by law" is exactly what's needed in a free society. /sarc
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Libertarian dystopias are not free societies. Just saying.
If we give libertarians what they want, slavery will be allowed again.
Enslaving libertarians sounds like a good idea.
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The claim is the government uses that information, for what?
Where is that claim? The only claims I see about CPAP machines and internet connectivity is that you can use an account to track your therapy log your data and quickly and easily share it with your doctor.
I'm all for dishwashers not having wifi for any reason what so ever, but there is actual real world benefit to people being able to have this functionality on a CPAP machine, especially in the early days of the therapy.
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>> manufacturers will classify appliances as something else to get around it
Where there's a will, there's a way.
I find government departments (that enforce laws or regulations) are happy to consider that something is "substantially x" when it suits their aims. Of course, they're also happy to look the other way when it doesn't.
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I have a similar model Bosch dishwasher and I never connected it to the wifi or downloaded the app. The dishwasher works just fine. The only thing I can't do is run the "self-clean" cycle (whatever that does.... it's a dishwasher...)
Best dishwasher I ever owned though.
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In Europe, something like this needs to be very clearly advertized. And you are not allowed to restrict functionality unless that cloud connection is really needed for that specific functionality. Works by consumer protection laws and the GDPR.
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EU companies have the same rights to screw their American customers as their US competitors. US law applies.
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
In Europe I'd just return it. They can deal with having to re-sell a used dish washer.
Only losing money with a high return rate will make them stop doing this.
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True you could get the entry level Miele [mieleusa.com] at around that same price and it doesn't seem to have any smart features.
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
He probably didn't realize it NEEDED cloud connectivity just to do a rinse cycle or delayed start. There's a ton of things that now come with completely un-necessary and worthless cloud connectivity just because.
Those are features that have been available for many years in appliances that had no cloud connectivity, why would it even occur to him that it might require it just for that functionality? It's enshittification on a grand scale.
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Sure,and if he had just done a complete teardown in the store complete with dumping and disassembling the firmware, he would know all about it. (or gotten arrested, whichever comes first).
For most people, cloud dependence still defies expectation. That's just not how dishwashers have worked for the last 50 years. The dependence is simply TOO STUPID to be expected. It's like buying a car and finding out you need an anvil to start it.
What next, a manual can opener that needs kerosene?
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Informative)
This person spent a lot of extra money on a dishwasher with functionality he didn't need; he could have spent that money that works just as well as a Bosch but without the connectivity, so why did he do it? Bosch gets great reviews, but so do lots of other dishwashers that are cheaper and without the connectivity.
FTA:
"It was Saturday night, and for a family of five, a dishwasher is kinda important. We don't have 1.5 hours every night to spend hand-washing dishes (not to mention the water bill!). So I needed to get a new one, and it's really hard for me to schedule a few hours for my Dad and I to get it done in the middle of the week (plus that's multiple days without a dishwasher!). So I did some research, and I found Bosch seemed to have the best bet for under $1,000, available locally on a Sunday. Consumer Reports, random Redditors, etc. seemed to have some praises for Bosch—on Reddit many also praised Miele, but I couldn't find any of those available locally. And Consumer Reports especially praised all the Bosch units, with them topping all their reliability and customer satisfaction charts!
So he was in a time bind, and the Miele wasn't available right away. It seems that he did a fair amount of research without discovering that the thing required an internet connection to function fully.
For sure this is what we call a "First World Problem". Aside from that though, it seems that the guy did all the due diligence to be expected under the circumstances. And it's not as though such items proclaim on the box that they "require an internet connection for full functionality".
Additionally, I don't have a lot of patience with blaming the victim here. There are huge regulatory gaps, and arguably culture gaps, through which manufacturers drive these skanky-as-shit practices. The problem here is not one of 'caveat emptor' - it's a problem of needing to put some regulatory weight behind the notion that "with great power and profit come great social responsibility".
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Out of curiosity, what happened that your old unit couldn't be quickly repaired? Dishwashers are surprisingly simple, after all. The worst problem I've run into was a short in the control panel (according to the error code in the manual) but removing the panel and cleaning a few contacts was all it took to get it back in order. Something like 8 screws and 20 minutes of effort and we were back in business. At least for the model I have, anything short of the mc failing (it's one of those mask rom jobs) or
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My experience with it was that the parts are so expensive for your average consumer that you might as well buy a whole new one. For example I had one where the pump failed, but in order to replace that pump, I had to buy a whole new sump unit - I couldn't just buy the pump stand-alone. The lowest I could find it was $300 or so. At that price I might as well buy a whole new unit. I'm sure you can get it cheaper or get just the pump if you have are a service person and have a contract with a parts supplie
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
He probably assumed, like most people, that when you purchase a physical product, the code that makes it so what it is advertised to do is part of the purchase. Why?
Because they knew, of course, that they could use them. After all, they bought the appliance. They purchased it with their own hard earned money. Why would they not be able to use its features? You know, the ones that were advertised?
Why would they think such a thing?
Because it is common sense. We have had alarm clocks for decades, but it would have been farcical to suggest that when you bought an alarm clock, you did not buy an alarm clock. Instead you purchased a physical case with some internal complements which did nothing, and licensed the code that makes it, for instance, display the current time.
Had you told them that this is what the future had in store for Americans, they would not have believed you. After all, it sounds like a scheme invented by a child to retain control over their toys even after they trade them away to the kid down the street, it is not something that would even pass the laugh test for adults. Not to mention, we pay 30%-ish of our earnings ever year to governments and courts which use our money to give us an nation and an economy that is sane, rational, and that preserves values that we have always held dear, such as respect for personal property and fair, rational business dealings.
There is NO WAY they would ever fall for a scheme as patently silly as divvying a product up into a patchwork of owned and licensed parts. And if for some bizarre reason they did, the people would never stand for it. I mean, we are Americans for fucks sake! Remember Do not Tread on Me. These colors do not run. We will put a boot in your ass, it is the American way. Yes, THOSE Americans.
Do you think they, do you think we, are would bend over while corporations rewrite well-established rules of private property, and ass rape us out of control over the things we spend our hard earned money to purchase?
Do you really think that would ever happen here?
I ask because most people still, to this day, cannot fathom it. And so they continue to purchase products, with the expectation that they will be able to use their newly acquired property as they see fit. Just as their parents did. And their parents before them.
And they are slowly, but surely, finding out that this is no longer the case. And when they do, they express shock, outrage, and disbelief. The whole thing is so bizarre and nonsensical, that they truly cannot believe that it is actually happening.
Get used to it. There is more to come. It has only just begun.
Re:Sigh (Score:4, Informative)
Bosch dishwashers have had the best capability/cost ratio on the US market for 15 years, since Maytag went down the enshittification tube. Everyone who had them recommends them to their friends, and every appliance review site ends up recommending at least one Bosch in their top 3 rating. Mieles are good - I think they are still designed and built by the same team that builds Miele laboratory dishwashers - but they are more expensive and hard to find in most of the US. Based on the reasonable amount of research done the Bosch was an equally reasonable choice - except it turned out the company has started its higher end models down the enshittification tube as well. Hard to know that based on past good experience until it happens.
I agree with that post (Score:3)
Re:I agree with that post (Score:5, Insightful)
I have a relatively new electric range (GE) ... There may be some some good uses like starting to cook before I get home ...
Personally, not a fan of running things that could start a fire (more easily anyway) when no one is home -- range/stove/oven, dryer, etc ...
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Personally, not a fan of running things that could start a fire (more easily anyway) when no one is home -- range/stove/oven, dryer, etc ...
...or cause a leak (such as a washer or dishwasher whose water inlet suddenly breaks) leading to indoor flooding - pretty sure the extra price for all those 'online features' wouldn't include such detection.
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Yup, forgot those. And I shouldn't have. I have a friend who just had to replace all their wood floors because of a broken water line on a bathtub fixture, under the floor on the second story. Not the same as a dish/washer going wrong, but still a nightmare. On the other hand, unlike a fire, their house is still there. :-)
Re:I agree with that post (Score:5, Interesting)
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heater?
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I have a relatively new electric range (GE) ... There may be some some good uses like starting to cook before I get home ...
Personally, not a fan of running things that could start a fire (more easily anyway) when no one is home -- range/stove/oven, dryer, etc ...
Nor am I. But I might be a fan of being able to turn those things OFF when I'm not there. As in "Oh shit, I forgot to turn X appliance off and now I'm two hours away from home"...
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But (Score:4, Funny)
Can it run Doom?
Re:But (Score:5, Funny)
It is Doom.
Re:But (Score:4, Funny)
I think at this stage we have reached Doom II: Hell On Earth.
I wen't and bought an old (Score:2)
non HE washer/dryer. And they work great and I don't have to worry about all the bells and whistles. I just want my washer to wash and my dryer to dry.
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HE washer/dryers have worked just fine for 20 years.
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HE washer/dryers have worked just fine for 20 years.
Why would you want a High Explosive washer/dryer?
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HE washer/dryers have worked just fine for 20 years.
Why would you want a High Explosive washer/dryer?
Stubborn stain removal? :-)
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They haven't for me or a lot of people I know, many people have to send their load through twice.
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This. All of this. (Score:5, Insightful)
Cloud just makes no sense for most appliances. It adds nothing for the consumer.
Here's the kicker: it adds nothing for the company except costs. They have to run a cloud service indefinitely, and they will not legally be allowed to start charging for it.
Finally, the IT people who create these services and apps should be fsckinv embarrassed. We have Home Connect, and it is near useless. We have a different brand oven, with app, and it might be useful, but it only allows *one* user. We have yet another app for radio controlled shutters. The local controller died, the replacement uses a different app, which must be attached to a new, different account. It's like everything is written by interns. Actually, interns might do it better.
Re:This. All of this. (Score:4, Interesting)
I have to agree. I have a GE oven that I connected to try out.
It's supposed to allow you to easily program cooking stuff into, but it's so awkward to do that it is drastically faster to just do it the old fashioned way.
And really, how many people these days are going to put a roast or whatever in the oven, let it sit at room temperature for ~5 hours, then start it around lunchtime from work to be done when they get home?
That's what a slow cooker or similar is for. Not letting something sit at a potentially dangerous temperature for hours.
Same deal with a dishwasher. If I trust the kids to load it, I trust them to start it. Once I have it loaded and ready to go, I see no need to delay the start of washing.
I could see a fridge having a temperature activated alarm that could alert you that it's getting or got too warm because the power went out (so how is it connecting?) or the door was left open or similar.
But beyond that, really?
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You are thinking about this the wrong way. I have delayed start, and it is simply a button that cycles hours from 0-23 in a display that is there anyways. Not that I would use that for the oven. There is zero need to for this to require a could connection. Requiring one is just a malicious attempt by the maker to coerce you into using one.
Re:This. All of this. (Score:4, Interesting)
I have to agree. I have a GE oven that I connected to try out.
It's supposed to allow you to easily program cooking stuff into, but it's so awkward to do that it is drastically faster to just do it the old fashioned way.
And really, how many people these days are going to put a roast or whatever in the oven, let it sit at room temperature for ~5 hours, then start it around lunchtime from work to be done when they get home? That's what a slow cooker or similar is for. Not letting something sit at a potentially dangerous temperature for hours. Same deal with a dishwasher. If I trust the kids to load it, I trust them to start it. Once I have it loaded and ready to go, I see no need to delay the start of washing.
I could see a fridge having a temperature activated alarm that could alert you that it's getting or got too warm because the power went out (so how is it connecting?) or the door was left open or similar.
But beyond that, really?
Slow cookers have been fucked in the last ten years or so too. I bought two slow cookers when I moved into my new place thinking I could start a meal in the morning to have when I got home. I went out of my way to buy the older style cookers, the ones without all the automated, must connect to an app nonsense. And frankly, I was shocked those even exist. At any rate, cooking the same amount of time as I did in the slow cookers I've had in the past that cooked things to perfection now leaves me with a dried out brick. Apparently, all temperature settings have been raised. Low is now more medium, medium is like the old high. I don't even want to guess what High is like. Oh, and just for fun, Warm isn't moved up to the old low, because then you'd have an all day cooking option in your slow cooker.
I did a lot of online poking around to try to figure out what, why, how, and what for. There's some babble about how important it is for slow cookers to complete a meal in five hours or less and that it may be some state initiated regulations. WTF? These things have worked the same since the beginning of the electric age, and suddenly it's a problem to take longer that five hours to cook? The proposed solutions are to either buy a variac to lower the power input, or just let things cook faster. Which makes things rather difficult when you leave the house at 7:00 AM and don't get back until 5:45 PM or later. What good is a "slow cooker" that cooks things faster?
Why must we ruin everything?
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Go watch Lewis Black's bit on his Amazon special about flipping between two football games on cable/live TV vs streaming. Live TV/Cable: flip channels, as little effort as pressing a single button. Streaming: go back to the menu screen, which shows up after the device fetches it from the interwebs. Then, go find the category for live sports, wait for the refresh. Then go find the sport, wait for the refresh. Then go find the game, and now you can watch it. Repeat if you want to flip back to the previous gam
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No, they get to sell your data and charge you. Most consumers would not buy into this knowingly. But it's too attractive for companies to know how many times you do the wash and flush the toilet to sell that data to advertisers. Next up, adverts on washers.
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Cloud just makes no sense for most appliances. It adds nothing for the consumer.
Finally, the IT people who create these services and apps should be fsckinv embarrassed.
I wouldn't blame the engineers. They likely didn't have a choice. Also, probably not the salespeople It's the strategy, "designers," and finance people that made the decision.
Re:This. All of this. (Score:5, Informative)
Managers need to stop reacting. (Score:4, Interesting)
How do we know this? How many years have appliances been online, yet they're not getting more reliable, so the data they're collecting isn't about functionality, it's about interaction. If you have 1 000 dishwashers reporting home, then you'd expect them to get more reliable, and have fewer breakdowns because you'd have a metric crap load of sensor data.
Doesn't matter if it's dishwashers, fridges, ovens, washing machines, dryers, all that data is collected and wasted because 10 years after I bought them, it's time for replacement because you can't even fix them. My in-laws' fridge, which is internet collected, has broken down 3 times, in 2 years, and needed a full replacement each time. My sister had to replace her oven, dishwasher, fridge, washer, and dryer after 5 years, all internet collected, zero warranty. Parents, fridge and dishwasher, on their 2nd replacement, again internet collected.
What's not internet collected? My grandmothers' fridge from the 50s, I don't think it's been services in 30 years. Our appliances, I refuse to replace them because they work, but the new stuff is completely unreliable.
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If you think the pretty charts they'll be producing in PowerBI are not "useful data", you're not thinking it through properly. What you're expecting them to do with the data - b
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The end goal should not be to figure out how short of a warranty you can offer, it should b
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Sure, they could use that data to build a better product and manage the range, and to some extent they probably do, but I think you're still missing a fundamental point - that the function of a modern publically traded company, almost certainly managed by MBAs, is to maximise profits and return for their shareholders first and foremost. If that also benefits the customer so much the better, but if not that's just too
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My dryer is a heating element and a motor both controlled by relays. That is all it is. It turns on, and at a predetermined time in the future, it turns off. Why does it need to have a microprocessor?
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Is this problem finally getting some traction? (Score:3)
This has been a pretty big issue for years now. It's exceedingly rare to find something that connects to Wi-Fi and doesn't demand a first party app and an account to be created. I literally couldn't find a smartwatch that didn't require one; I tried several. A client bought an HP scanner that had a very, very indirect way of setting up the printer without an account. Another client who set the printer up without me made one, and the all-in-one won't scan to a computer on the LAN without providing HP account credentials.
No.
I'm glad this guys' story got a bit of traction. What makes it particularly annoying is that none of this is divulged to users up front. One has to Google around enough to hope someone has indicated whether a particular function is account-walled, and hope that someone is able to articulate it enough to make a decision before the purchase.
Here's to hoping Bosch is shamed enough into unlocking this functionality, but even if they did...it would have to come through a firmware upgrade...which one would have to create an account to install....
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we want the magic...but with security/reliability (Score:3)
There's 2 problems with the IOT these days
1) we don't trust that the hardware providers are willing to maintain the software. Case in point, refrigerators and microwaves that have 'expired' in their Android support and will never get upgrades, thus leading to zero-day insecurity issues (if Google/Android doesn't brick them by pushing an upgrade they aren't supposed to get - this killed thousands of Nexus TV devices by shoving 8 at them after saying in publicity that they weren't supported past 7.12).
2) the bigger issue: we want all of that magic. we really do. we want to just go "computer, turn the oven on 350 and let me know when it is ready" while i'm downstairs in the laundry room sorting things. We actually really want to go "computer, find and book the best flight for us to get to Houston to see the family, including a rental car" and have it all just happen. The whole "Agents" thing was promising that back in the late 90s, even without AT&T's "the company that will bring it to you" advertisements.
But here we are with the companies that can bring it to us: Apple, Google, Amazon, Microsoft...and we don't trust any of them. Some do, perhaps many do. But many more don't right now.
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Re:we want the magic...but with security/reliabili (Score:5, Informative)
2) the bigger issue: we want all of that magic. we really do.
Who is that "we" you are talking about? Pulralis majestatis? Because I do not want any of that. "Magic" is just another word for "breaks in surprising and unexpected ways".
Re: we want the magic...but with security/reliabil (Score:2)
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I don't want the magic. Turning our entire lives into pressing buttons or talking at the machines is slowly killing us.
Caveat emptor (Score:2)
Fortunately, I am in Europe, where things like that have to be made very obvious before you buy, due to consumer protection laws that are not just sick jokes. Obviously, I will never buy any appliance that needs a cloud connection. (Yes, I am aware this one will not be completely bricked without that cloud connection. Just wait for the next model...)
Product spec sheets (Score:2)
Fortunately, I am in Europe, where things like that have to be made very obvious before you buy, due to consumer protection laws that are not just sick jokes.
Comparing the Bosch product spec sheets between the US and Ireland (in the EU), they both disclose this.
The US product sheet lists the number of wash options as: "3 + 2 additional in Home Connect" at the top of page 1.
The IE product sheet lists out the options only available via HomeConnect, which is better, albeit in smaller font on page 2.
The only way out is through. (Score:5, Informative)
The ONLY way this gets better is if people actually return them.
He said he doesn't want to go through the time and effort of returning it, but that's the only way this gets better.
If the customers like him suffer with it, don't bother returning it, and put up with the nuisance then the companies see it as an acceptable profit.
They'll keep building them until they feel pain from retailers getting returns, RMA's because "Defective, the features don't work", too many reports of "not as advertised", having to eat the costs of returns and disposing of opened products, and huge negative reviews so they struggle to sell the ones they have in stock.
Complaining about it online is a small thing, but the only thing the companies will listen to is when they have to bear the costs of product returns.
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That's right. (Score:3, Insightful)
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These types of unusual limitations or requirements should be clearly indicated on the box and in the showroom. I should be able to shop for, say, a bicycle with the confidence that it won't require the purchase of a block heater, prepaid phone card, or 3-pack of toothbrushes, before I can ride it.
I shouldn't have to "do my research" for something that is generally understood. Not in any kind of functioning market. There are indeed laws that codify this, relating to salability and fitness for purpose. What'
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It never ceases to amaze me how much people act as apologists for shady business tactics. I can only assume you want to take advantage of that some day.
He did do research, a reasonable amount and more than most people do. It didn't come up in the research. Now I know another corporate ass licker blaming him for not downloading the manual and poring over that, which is something I have never done researching an appliance because it's never before been necessary.
If the company was honest, they would have had
Same with my new heat pump (Score:2)
Even my fan has an internet connection (Score:2)
Refuse to buy this crap (Score:2)
I refuse to subscribe to connected features and refuse to buy appliances that use them. Itâ(TM)s the only way to prevent this rot from spreading.
Not just obselescence (Score:2)
By connecting your appliance to your network and then connecting it to someone's cloud, you potentially create a scenario where the administrators of the cloud services can establish a reverse connection into your home network. They can then try to spy on your other devices. Likewise, anyone who compromises the cloud service, could then get a foothold into your home network, too.
The real reason for this... (Score:2)
is so that you can't use your purchase until you've agreed to some kind of one-sided contract that says you can't sue them, etc.
Appliance companies have tried putting that sort of thing on the boxes, stickers, etc. before, but since they tend to be professionally installed, it's too easy for the end users to claim they never saw/agreed to anything. So enter mandatory phone app/cloud connectivity.
Why does SD remove mod points for a period time? (Score:2)
I know not for this Topic.
But I wonder, I still had 10 mod points left. Then SD removes them.
Then they are gone for a few days. Then I get 15 mod points.
Why do they do this?
It does not make me use the mod points. It just makes me mad.
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Fuck'em. Just like with cars. (Score:4, Insightful)
Find an old appliance and fix it. The "usual" ones have a long support chain.
My 30 year old washer spun its last load the other day. $35 in parts and a supposed hour in labor. The "how-to" is in youtube, and the parts ship with paper instructions.
We'll see when the clutch kit gets here.
2 years ago I did my dryer, the belt had snapped. It was some generic belt and tensioner. Replaced it all myself with OEM. I think it was like $20 in parts, some youtube, some ingenuity because I lack an assistant, 2 hours and done.
I refuse to buy new appliances, partly because government regulations have nerfed them, partly because new appliances are retarded in their asking they be connected to the 'net, but mostly because it seems post-2010 appliances simply lack the longevity of the old stuff.
Fuck 'em. With a splintered phone pole.
Large expenditure required large research. (Score:2)
Re:Bought site-unseen? (Score:4, Insightful)
You don't know what faults to look for until you know to look for them. Manufacturers keep finding new and exciting ways to catch you off guard.
I bought a car that the back seats don't fold down from the trunk. There's an empty space where the release is supposed to be. Of course the seats fold down on that model car. Oh wait... that's an OPTION and not standard. The car has everything available for that model year except for the release to fold down the seats.
So take your smugness and go marvel over how awesome you are and how you're the master of everything in your life.
Re: (Score:2)
*Can* connect to the cloud is different than *must* connect to the cloud to operate. I would assume that I would be able to turn this feature off, but I would be wrong. Then again why spend extra money on an appliance that connects to the internet unless you want that feature?
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Because they ALL do? Or at least every model on display does except for the rickety hand cranked contraption in the corner that they probably display as a joke.
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I recently bought an LG washer and dryer pair. Unlike the LG dryer that I had left behind at my old house, the new appliances did NOT have any connectivity.
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It's an appliance. Yes the purchase was done in a hurry, as many appliance purchases are, and usually on a weekend at the worst possible moment. He had enough time to do a bit of research and Bosch was reviewed highly. There were a few features he wanted and this washer claimed it had them. No this is on Bosch, not him. I'd be angry too. In fact i'd be angry enough to rip it out and take it back and demand some compensation for my time. But I don't have a wife and kids depending on the appliance.
Re: (Score:2)
Grabbing the manual online isn't that hard to know how easy or complicated the thing is going to be to operate (and would've seen this well in advance of spending 4 hrs installing it and then finding out!)
Shit - I hate reading common-sense comments like yours when they negate what I just posted a few minutes ago... ;-(
Re: (Score:2)
Also, "delayed start" and "eco mode" are NOT. part if "basic functionality", they are part of operating the dishwasher in a way that saves money, it is understandable that those features may need additional information.
That is complete nonsense. My dishwasher, washer and dryer all support "delayed start" and there is no "additional information" needed in any way. I just press the delay button until the number of hours of delay from 0-23 is displayed. Done. Same for "eco mode". You seem to try to excuse a crappy design that cannot be excused.
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It could be "potentially" part of anything
But in this day and age, if it's not making the company money it almost always becomes a pay service or goes away. Yes, technically if you jump off of a cliff anything could happen (wind blows you back up, someone suddenly puts a nice fluffy cushion where you will land), but the smart money is on death.
Also, "delayed start" and "eco mode" are NOT. part if "basic functionality"
Yes, they are. They have been common features on dishwashers for decades.
LOL! (Score:2)
Yours is a world class troll. Everyone that reads it is saying; what the absolute fuck is he talking about?
Nicely executed.
Re:Jeff is Paranoid (Score:4, Insightful)
Jeff is paranoid for a reason, and this kind of daylight robbery happens with connected appliances any time. A dishwasher, washing machine or your fridge should be standalone devices, capable of working on their own for 20 years, without connectivity or updates. Another angle to this is, that by connecting your fridge to Wifi and to their cloud service, you potentially give external companies reverse-connection access to your home network and everything that is connected to it.