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67% of American Tech Workers Interested In Joining a Union (visualcapitalist.com) 118

Posted by EditorDavid from the union-set dept.
Long-time Slashdot reader AsylumWraith writes: Visual Capitalist has posted an article and graph showing that, on average, 67% of US tech workers would be interested in joining a union.

The percentage is highest at companies like Intuit, with 94% or respondents indicating they'd be interested in joining a union. On the other end of the scale, fewer than half of the employees at Apple, Tesla, and Google, who were surveyed were interested in such a move.

67% of American Tech Workers Interested In Joining a Union More | Reply

67% of American Tech Workers Interested In Joining a Union

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  • Yuck (Score:4, Informative)

    by rtkluttz ( 244325 ) on Sunday September 29, 2024 @01:38PM (#64826465) Homepage

    I've worked in tech my entire career but I also despise unions. I do everything possible to not buy products from companies embedded with unions and it's impossible in some product segments. Yes, executives make too much money, but also unions cause unskilled labor to be overpaid by a large margin. Usually skilled labor is pretty on par for both union and non union jobs, which is a good indicator the wages are fair. But even for skilled positions, unions gum up the works, slow down progress, create massive red tape, require funding stolen from the workers and the worst part is that there is not a union in the world that is not massively corrupt at the top.

    • While I don't go out of my way to avoid buying from them, some unions in particular produce objectively shitty products, such as UAW. Go look at their own published list of makes and models, then look at their reliability ratings on consumer reports.

      And then there's Boeing... Definitely leadership problems there, but what's the point of a union if they don't even do anything about retaliation? Feels like the union is only there to ensure people get longer breaks and more pay.

      • They build them. This is a common mistake. The cars are designed by engineers under orders from CEOs. And the CEOs treat the cars like shit so that we all get stuck buying SUVs and pickup trucks.

        That said, UAW SUVs and trucks are incredibly rock solid. And there's no reason why the cars can't be if the CEOs stop cutting corners. Hell some of them just gave up on making cars all together and all you can get from them are SUVs and trucks now. But again those are decisions made by CEOs not the guy turning

    • Re: (Score:1, Informative)

      by ArchieBunker ( 132337 )

      There is no such thing as unskilled labor.

      • Auto Factory (Score:3, Interesting)

        by JBMcB ( 73720 )

        Ever been inside a general assembly plant? Last time I visited one, there were three people installing headliners. Two people actually installed the headliner, which involved shoving the headliner up until it snapped in place. The third person's job was to sit on a stool and hand the other two the headliner from an automatically fed hopper.

        That third guy, what was his skill?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by narcc ( 412956 )

          Why don't you ask the guy, or the other two guys. Just because you don't understand what skill is involved doesn't mean there is no skill involved.

          • Jobs (Score:2)

            by JBMcB ( 73720 )

            I didn't have to. I was there with someone who sets up factories for a living. The third guy's entire job was to hand people headliners from a machine designed to hand people headliners. If you can slide a piece of cardboard about 4' square out of a slot, you can do that job.

      • You could argue that's technically true, but I'm fairly certain someone could be trained to pick fruit faster than they could learn how to be a doctor or an engineer. When I was young, I mowed lawns during the summer to earn money. The skill level required for the work was minimal and when I stopped it wasn't difficult for some other kid to replace me. That's what is meant by unskilled labor. It's also why it doesn't pay as well. If everyone can do it, there's plenty of supply relative to the demand for it.

      • There is no such thing as unskilled labor.

        There absolutely is such a thing as Unskilled Labor. It is a reference to workers doing a job that requires no special training or experience. While some argue the term is no longer politically correct, it remains a fact that there is work that fits that category. This doesn't mean the people are dumb or they don't have some other skills. It just means it is going to be pretty easy to bring someone in off the street as a replacement. They may need someone to tell them what to do, but not so much teach them

      • Re: Yuck (Score:2)

        by kenh ( 9056 )

        If your onboarding training can be completed in an hour, you don't have a skill-based job.

        Or are you making the pedantic argument that the ability to perform a task upon request ("bring me the mop") qualifies as a skill? Since this is /., I fear it's the latter...

    • Re:Yuck (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sjames ( 1099 ) on Sunday September 29, 2024 @02:46PM (#64826649) Homepage Journal

      Dig deeper and you'll find that every bit of union red tape and 'arbitrary rule' is a patch against some kooky attempt by management to cheat on the previous agreement. Unions wouldn't watch the stove controls so closely if management would quit trying to boil the frog.

      As for "overpaid by a large margin" that's easy to say if you're not the one doing that work. They probably think you're overpaid by a large margin considering all you do is sit on your ass and poke at a keyboard all day.

      But consider, if the labor is truly unskilled, why are people who have been doing it for a year so much faster at it than someone who just started? Perhaps you should try it for a day and put the video on YouTube, we could use a laugh.

      • The impending longshoremen strike is 1 parts pay negotiation (ok) and 2 parts luddism:

        The union is demanding significantly higher wages and a total ban on the automation of cranes, gates and moving containers in the loading and unloading of freight.

        https://apnews.com/article/lon... [apnews.com]

        "Hey we don't need you to do this job any more."

        "Oh, in that case, you will not only keep paying me to do it, but give me a raise."

    • Unions should be avoided from my view. The few unions we have to deal with in a right to work state show that they just collect part of your income, and drive up costs of things that need to be done.

      Installing a shelf on a wall in a closet was quoted at $8,000 by the union we are required to use for "construction". That does not include the shelf costs. They said they needed 4 people to do the job. We bought a free standing shelf for a heck of a lot less than that.

      You also have to look at what a union s

      • I am in a union. Pretty big one. Costs a lot.but everytime my employer does something illegal I do not have to worry about it. Union rep is on it. We may decide to let it slip if it is in every body's interest, or if it is reasonable. If it is not worst case we go on strike. The advantage? I can focus on my job. Sure, unions can screw things up. But that is not a privilege that is reserved for the company owners.
    • If unskilled labor is just something machines can't do yet, then a lot of programmers are about to find out they are unskilled labor.
    • I don't like unions and I saw firsthand how they contributed to problems in ateel industry. Nevertheless, your statement on every union being corrupt is wrong. In some countries - like UK - unions are not all corrupt and still have a role to play. Don't assume rest of world is like US.
    • There is no such thing as unskilled labor. Just labor capitalists wants an excuse to not pay a living wage for.

    • unions cause unskilled labor to be overpaid by a large margin

      Unskilled labor like programmers?

    • .... and the worst part is that there is not a union in the world that is not massively corrupt at the top.

      Small unions tend to be less corrupt. The worst are the giant national unions.

  • Age correlation? (Score:3)

    by Tebriel ( 192168 ) on Sunday September 29, 2024 @01:41PM (#64826475)

    I'm curious how much that correlates with age? With age discrimination being a very real thing, and as a just-middle-aged software guy, the thought of some concrete protections for those of us getting up in years is very appealing.

    • because they grew up during the pre-India labor shortages. Survivor bias is a hell of a drug and every boomer and older Gen Xer I know that made it this far through layoffs thinks they're Richard Stallman by way of Albert Einstein (or vice versa).

      The kids know better. They go to meetings and see a see of cheap labor they're forced to compete with. They get laid off ever 2-5 years to bump the stock price for another round of buy backs no matter how productive they are. And every year price gouging eats u

      • Isn't it always your assertion that Elon treats his employees badly and outsources wherever possible? So why is Tesla at the bottom of this list?

        And I don't know what this "pre-India" shit is about. In the aughts I kept hearing not to bother going into tech because you'll just get offshored. Yet ten years later I went into it anyways and haven't seen even the slightest hint of that happening.

        • Not that I'm a fan of Leon but I didn't mention him once in my comment or imply anything related to a list of any kind. It feels like you're just baiting me and it's pretty weak bait.

          You might be a bot too. That seems likely since you just randomly mentioned Elon musk on a union thread and a comment that is pro-union. Modern LLMS could figure out that my comment was pro-union but they wouldn't know how to respond necessarily.

      • because they grew up during the pre-India labor shortages. Survivor bias is a hell of a drug and every boomer and older Gen Xer I know that made it this far through layoffs thinks..

        Ummm, I'm an old fart and I was recently laid off from a tech company, in part of an endless-seeming routine of layoffs every 6-12 months. I don't know anyone who's complacent. Everyone I've talked to (before and after my turn) realizes they could be next, from very senior engineers/managers to new college grads. Everyone has a list of a dozen people they're gobsmacked were let go.

        I've been lucky. This is the first time I've been laid off. I'm one of the few who's only been laid off once.

        • Oh, and I forgot to add: a union would absolutely not help. I can't think if a single engineer I've talked to with any interest in joining one.

          • To prevent cyclical layoffs. The problem is you've been programmed for so long to expect getting the shit kicked out of you that you cannot imagine a world where you don't get the shit kicked out of you.

            They have literally programmed you to expect your life to be miserable and stressful. I remember an economist calling it a fragile existence. There is absolutely no reason it has to be that way. The only thing we have to discard is our hero worship of the wealthy and powerful.
      • You are just like a sovcit - everything is passed thru one narrow viewpoint and there can be no other interpretation. You are 100% wrong on the salary thing. Simple math shows this to be true. If you were correct then after 25 years workers would have next to no money left. However we see that is not the case and according to FRED salaries across the board have outpaced inflation for last 20 years. You complain all the time about how ad everything is yet fact remains people are much better off today than

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Higher value employees generally don't favour unions. They'd rather be paid their above average worth. Lower value employees would rather their pay be brought up to the average worth of all the employees.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dgatwood ( 11270 )

        Higher value employees generally don't favour unions. They'd rather be paid their above average worth. Lower value employees would rather their pay be brought up to the average worth of all the employees.

        You're incorrectly assuming that this is about pay. Tech employees have generally resisted unions even at companies that pay well below typical wages for the area. This has nothing to do with pay. This is about companies doing mass layoffs and replacing the fired employees with new employees in lower-cost locations, or with contractors in even lower-cost locations, all without even giving the employees the option of moving to lower-cost locations to keep their jobs. This is about the wealthiest companie

        • You're incorrectly assuming that this is about pay.

          OK

          Tech employees have generally resisted unions even at companies that pay well below typical wages for the area. This has nothing to do with pay. This is about companies doing mass layoffs and replacing the fired employees with new employees in lower-cost locations, or with contractors in even lower-cost locations, all without even giving the employees the option of moving to lower-cost locations to keep their jobs.

          So it's not about "pay" it's about keeping your job so you keep getting "paid"?

          We call that

      • Teachers are heavily unionized, and the first thing unions tell employers is they don't want 'merit pay' - you can't reward a teacher for doing an outstanding job, they are paid based on years of service and education level - and the teacher with a mail-order masters degree in basket weaving gets the same pay bump as the Harvard graduate with a masters in education.

        In NYC the union fights to keep ineffective teachers on the payroll, to the point NYC public schools have so-called "rubber rooms" filled with t

  • Here's how I see it (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MpVpRb ( 1423381 ) on Sunday September 29, 2024 @02:02PM (#64826547)

    I started programming in 1972 when there weren't very many of us and even fewer good ones. Those of us who could demonstrate skills and produce good results were treated VERY well

    Then the word spread. A job in software is the key to riches. A flood of people with no talent or passion poured into schools and then into industry, believing that they could command the same high pay they read about. Few were excellent, most were mediocre or worse. The software world adapted by inventing tools and frameworks that allowed mediocre programmers to churn out mediocre code. Bosses noticed that extreme skill wasn't required to do this and looked for cheaper alternatives. India provided them

    Today there are still a few highly skilled and talented programmers who are treated well, but bosses often prefer to hire cheap people and treat them poorly. These are the people who want a union

    • Because programming is more or less a trade now and without unions trades get paid like shit because you can train somebody up on it in about a year maybe two at the most.

      People with advanced mathematics are the ones getting treated well. Typically people who have a specific niche skill that's needed. And the unemployment line is littered with people who developed those niche skills and technology moved on and they didn't have three or four years to spend obsessively building up a new niche skill set. O
      • What nonsense are you on about? Software developer positions are some of the best paying jobs on the planet and if it were so easy to replace the people who are great at it, they wouldn't be getting paid nearly as well. The demand is so great that even monkeys that can barely cobble together JavaScript taken from Stack Overflow can still get jobs when everyone is trying to hire more developers and it costs even more to hire the skilled developers with experience.

        Also trades get paid well. Look at how muc

      • Define what a "trade" is?

        Because programming is more or less a trade now and without unions trades get paid like shit because you can train somebody up on it in about a year maybe two at the most.

        When someone talks to me about people that work in 'the trades' I think of electricians, plumbers, HVAC workers, road crews and carpenters. I wouldn't consider any of them to be "lesser" or lower-paying jobs than, say, a programmer.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by TheStatsMan ( 1763322 )

      This comes across to me as, "fuck you, I got mine." Maybe you're not like that in person, but that's the impression you're giving. And I think most of that deals with this assumption on your part:

      >Then the word spread. A job in software is the key to riches. A flood of people with no talent or passion poured into schools and then into industry

      Now, I don't know much about your life, and maybe you've been lucky to avoid the boom and bust cycles of our economy, and maybe you just chalk that up to being a

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dnaumov ( 453672 )

        This comes across to me as, "fuck you, I got mine." Maybe you're not like that in person, but that's the impression you're giving.

        You're talking as if this is somehow an immoral and/or unethical position to hold. No, that's backwards. What's immoral is the idea that it's your god-given right to hitch yourself to and massively benefit off the superachievers. It is not.

        • If to many in society don't have enough and a handful of very wealthy have the "I got mine. Fuck you." attitude, those starving massing eventually bring down the whole pyramid.

      • I wish programmers got paid less and in exchange was only performed by people who enjoyed it.

    • I mostly agree with you, but quibble on a couple of points.

      These "tools and frameworks" don't just make mediocre programmers able to churn out mediocre code, they also enable skilled programmers to churn out excellent code faster. What the frameworks have really done, is move the center of difficulty. It used to be that the most difficult part of programming, was correctly telling the computer what to do. Those days are long gone. These days, the hardest part of programming, is *deciding* what you want the

    • Oh... boy, yet another programmer that says he is the one. I hear that annoyingly often these days. Usually it means trouble. Trump style trouble.

  • Yes, please! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by PPH ( 736903 ) on Sunday September 29, 2024 @02:21PM (#64826595)

    Because I want some union to take a few hundred a month out of my paycheck. And claim that they got me the raise that my employer was more than happy to pay me due to my skills and experience anyway. But then turn around and hand a pretty big chunk of that to some socialist political organization. Who are accusing me of fomenting inequality because of my pay disparity.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by narcc ( 412956 )

      Union employees get far, far, more back than they pay in dues.

      my employer was more than happy to pay me due to my skills and experience anyway.

      Assuming this story is true, what you don't seem to realize is that you were being underpaid. If you didn't get any push-back, that means you're still underpaid.

      There's a reason companies universally try to illegally keep their employees from discussing compensation with one another. A friend of mine once got a $30,000 raise. He was thrilled until he found out that one of people he supervises was making more than he was! He was being dramat

    • Unions pay for themselves by several multiples. People who have unions make more money than people who don't and even people who don't have unions make more money if unions are in a good position because obviously.

      Now what you can't do if you want unions to be effective is vote with your gut. You can't vote with your feelings. Because unions ultimately need support from the government in order to counteract the almost unimaginable power of a modern international corporation. So yeah if you keep voting

    • I want some union to take a few hundred a month out of my paycheck.

      Just FYI, here in EU I can choose any of about 5 unions to join. Anywhere, anyplace. I pay under 15â/mo for union membership. And from that, they refund about a half.
      For that, they look up and answer all questions I may have regarding (un)employment and negotiate better work conditions.

      America has a long way to go before it's great again. How did you guys fuck it up so bad?

      • You describe EU unions as if they were employee support groups.

        A union can't support itself on 15 euros/month per worker when it gives back about half that money.

        • Unions are _literally_ employee support groups; they are the people that have your back when HR is in your face.

          Non-corrupt unions can easily support itself on pretty miniscule amounts if the membership is large enough.

          The problem isn't unions, it's that your country is a corrupt shithole and most of the workers there are too brainwashed by Capitalism to understand just how badly its. and it is only going to get worse.

  • Not straightforward (Score:3)

    by Bruce66423 ( 1678196 ) on Sunday September 29, 2024 @02:37PM (#64826627)

    Growing up in 70s Britain, my experience of unions was extremely negative; they nearly ran the country into the ground until Margaret Thatcher beat them down. In 1990 I got a public sector job. A few years later it imposed a 'job evaluation scheme' which tried to equate the level of skills in different departments in order to pay on the basis of skill, not the level of wages necessary to recruit for the job. However one effect of this was to mean some of the employees were expected to take LARGE pay cuts - 20% or more. The union went on strike, and I joined in order to do so...

    Roll on a few years and the union rep in my area of the company moved elsewhere, and I ended up as the new union rep. It was an interesting job; at its best it provided pastoral care and immediate support to members who were facing difficulties, either work related or otherwise. On a good day we were thus lubricants that meant the organisation worked better. We also sometimes held the management to account for health and safety failings that they should have been addressing. On a bad day you had to try to defend the indefensible; a DBA was employed who really wasn't competent. I lost that - and knew it was the right decision to get rid of him...

    But... but... the job evaluation scheme came back to bite them. They ended up having to pay the IT staff in the organisation a 'market supplement' because too many were leaving. They also had to bully me into doing some work as a DBA, which wasn't in my job spec and for which I wasn't getting paid after they evaluated my job without it including DBA. I warned them not to do it again, but as I left soon after that, the point became moot.

    So - if your union is doing a good job and you aren't a truly stellar performer, you should probably join up. But don't be too surprised if you discover that your union people are mediocre; after all the true high flyers have better things to do.

    • Growing up in 70s Britain, my experience of unions was extremely negative; they nearly ran the country into the ground until Margaret Thatcher beat them down.

      Turns out Thatcher had a good crack at running the country into the ground. The conservative way is is to flog off the country cheap either to their mates or to buy votes. Right to buy has eviscerated public housing causing a crisis. We now pay over the odds for water companies which sold off critical infrastructure (reservoirs) while literally dumping

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by hoofie ( 201045 )

        Are you 12 ? I lived through the 70s pre-Thatcher and shit doesn't even begin to describe it. Constant strikes, power cuts, rampant inflation and a busted economy.

        If Thatcher was so bad why was she constantly re-elected by the working class ?

        People saw their lives being ruined and wanted someone who would sort it out.

  • After decades doing software, and watching some others be soundly abused, but refusing to consider uniting and speaking with one voice, they're finally wising up? Hooray. If you act like a doormat, you'll get stepped on. Its that simple.

  • 67% of American Tech Workers Interested In Joining a Union

    Then those workers have a good metric for their voting this year as one political party is pro-union and the other is not.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by rally2xs ( 1093023 )

      67% of American Tech Workers Interested In Joining a Union

      Then those workers have a good metric for their voting this year as one political party is pro-union and the other is not.

      Yeah, well, the supposedly pro-union bunch increased the prices of pretty much everything you buy by about 20%, and the PRO-WORKER guy increased the median family income from $62K to $68K / yr the last time he was President. Choose carefully.

    • Whoever modded that flame-bait must be projecting and/or a little touchy as I didn't specify which political party was on which side... That said, I can probably guess their political affiliation ...

  • Software developers think of themselves as white collar professionals and I think the reality is that software is the next blue collar playing field

  • Yes, unions suck. They take a big bite out of your paycheck every month, and what they give you back never really seems worth it. They subsidize incompetence and encourage indolence. They make complaining a way of life, until dealing with them is like a constant low-grade migraine. They are, unless you watch them like a hawk, forever, corrupt as shit.

    But also, management sucks. They are willing, excited even, to savagely exploit the workers in any way they can, while mouthing platitudes about how their

    • Lesser of two evils... (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      I hate to say, but unions got our kids out of the coal mines, gave us eight hour jobs, some redress in case of worker accidents, gave us weekends (if you think dealing with what you have now sucks, wait until companies brag about being 997 places, where you don't get a day off in weeks to months.

      I'm so tired of everything being "communism". Is being under the boot of billionaires with zero recourse, zero worker safety, zero chance to move forward, being paid in company scrip instead of actual money, living

      • Actually unions, specifically US unions, had little to do with what you wrote. The first modern child labor laws came from UK when it was the world power and what they did influenced practically all developed countries. While he was not alone in doing this, the 7th Lord Shaftesbury was very important in many social changes in 19th century we take for granted.

  • I'm tired of short term employment with NO healthcare insurance, NO retirement benefits, NO paid holidays, having to work the day after Thanksgiving or on New Years' Eve. I would gladly join a union that would fight for fair pay and benefits. I've been in IT for over 30 years and I'm sick of bosses treating me like crap.

    • New Year's Eve and Black Friday (the day after Thanksgiving) aren't holidays, why do you deserve the day off (presumably with pay)?

      Having 15-20 jobs over a 30 year career has you perpetually being 'the new guy', and that's not how you get ahead in a company.

  • I hand a penny of my salary to big labor.

    They're a cancer on society that started out as a communist front organization, and never really stopped being a communist front organization, even if they've occasionally pulled double duty as an organized crime front organization.

  • In the US? no.. (Score:3)

    by Kelxin ( 3417093 ) on Sunday September 29, 2024 @05:33PM (#64826919)
    The only union I'm looking to join is the European Union. Preferably within the next 6 months.
  • Joining a Union is an interesting idea but I bet it would it would amount to me getting a pink slip and the business would just move the work to the Low Cost Contractor in another country. Knowledge workers can be employed from anywhere, without government reforms I don't see it working out well in the end.

  • Is anyone shocked that in an extremely meritocratic field, the bottom 2/3 want the same pay as the top 1/3?

  • ... are against unions. Details at 11.

  • I've worked at a number of tech firms as a software developer. I doubt more than one in 10 has ever supported the idea of joining a union. In software development, the boundary between worker, management, and executive is so fluid the idea of having a union of workers makes absolutely no sense.

    OTOH, companies like Intuit, GM, and Oracle employ thousands of people in production, sales, and service roles, jobs outside product development. Do those count as tech professionals? My guess is yes, for the purpose

  • At least 67% of IT workers seem incompetent.

  • Bad unions sink companies. Bad companies abuse workers. Neither is the "always" the answer. I can quit a bad company but unions are the ones keeping bad teachers and bad baseball umps, etc employed for some reason. So I'm heavily opposed. I left my last IT job because it was AWFUL and now they can't find anyone to work there. Oh well. Fuck em.

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