Researchers Hack Electronic Shifters With a Few Hundred Dollars of Hardware 125
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Wired: Professional cycling has, in its recent history, been prone to a shocking variety of cheating methods and dirty tricks.Performance-enhancing drugs.Tacks strewn on race courses. Even stealthy motors hidden inside of wheel hubs. Now, for those who fail to download a software patch for their gear shifters -- yes, bike components now get software updates -- there may be hacker saboteurs to contend with, too. At the Usenix Workshop on Offensive Technologies earlier this week, researchers from UC San Diego and Northeastern University revealed a technique that would allow anyone with a few hundred dollars of hardware to hack Shimano wireless gear-shifting systems (Warning: source may be paywalled; alternative source) of the kind used by many of the top cycling teams in the world, including in recent events like the Olympics and the Tour de France. Their relatively simple radio attack would allow cheaters or vandals to spoof signals from as far as 30 feet away that trigger a target bike to unexpectedly shift gears or to jam its shifters and lock the bike into the wrong gear.
The trick would, the researchers say, easily be enough to hamper a rival on a climb or, if timed to certain intense moments of a race, even cause dangerous instability. "The capability is full control of the gears. Imagine you're going uphill on a Tour de France stage: If someone shifts your bike from an easy gear to a hard one, you're going to lose time," says Earlence Fernandes, an assistant professor at UCSD's Computer Science and Engineering department. "Or if someone is sprinting in the big chain ring and you move it to the small one, you can totally crash a person's bike like that." [...] The researchers' technique exploits the increasingly electronic nature of modern high-end bicycles, which now have digital components like power meters, wireless control of fork suspensions, and wireless shifters. "Modern bicycles are cyber-physical systems," the researchers note in their Usenix paper. Almost all professional cyclists now use electronic shifters, which respond to digital signals from shifter controls on the bike's handlebars to move a bicycle's chain from gear to gear, generally more reliably than mechanical shifting systems. In recent years, those wired electronic shifters have transitioned again to wireless versions that pair via a radio connection, such as the popular Di2 wireless shifters sold by the Japanese cycling component firm Shimano, which the researchers focused on. Shimano says it has developed a firmware update to patch the exploit but it won't be available widely until late August. The update is intended to improve wireless transmission across Shimano Di2 component platforms, though specific details about the fix and how it prevents the identified attacks have not been disclosed for security reasons.
The trick would, the researchers say, easily be enough to hamper a rival on a climb or, if timed to certain intense moments of a race, even cause dangerous instability. "The capability is full control of the gears. Imagine you're going uphill on a Tour de France stage: If someone shifts your bike from an easy gear to a hard one, you're going to lose time," says Earlence Fernandes, an assistant professor at UCSD's Computer Science and Engineering department. "Or if someone is sprinting in the big chain ring and you move it to the small one, you can totally crash a person's bike like that." [...] The researchers' technique exploits the increasingly electronic nature of modern high-end bicycles, which now have digital components like power meters, wireless control of fork suspensions, and wireless shifters. "Modern bicycles are cyber-physical systems," the researchers note in their Usenix paper. Almost all professional cyclists now use electronic shifters, which respond to digital signals from shifter controls on the bike's handlebars to move a bicycle's chain from gear to gear, generally more reliably than mechanical shifting systems. In recent years, those wired electronic shifters have transitioned again to wireless versions that pair via a radio connection, such as the popular Di2 wireless shifters sold by the Japanese cycling component firm Shimano, which the researchers focused on. Shimano says it has developed a firmware update to patch the exploit but it won't be available widely until late August. The update is intended to improve wireless transmission across Shimano Di2 component platforms, though specific details about the fix and how it prevents the identified attacks have not been disclosed for security reasons.
IoT problems (Score:4, Insightful)
This is standard in world of IoT. A new maker of "certain specialist things" figures out they can save money, effort, weight, capacity, etc on making something formerly analogue, local and wired into digital, covering significant area and wireless.
And run into the security issues with this transformation.
Re:IoT problems (Score:5, Interesting)
And yet SRAM, who did it first, did not suffer this problem. Not only that, they stated publicly that they avoided an obvious design specifically to avoid this problem, a design that Shimano subsequently chose to employ.
So while your observation may appear superficially interesting to an uninformed person, it is not.
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Are you familiar with expression "exception that reinforces the rule"?
It exists for a reason. Because we had this exact problem in everything from refrigerators to industrial machinery to speakers.
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A lot of automotive has gone from bolts to plastic clips to save weight and reduce construction time. A decent chunk of it is going partially wireless to save weight and reduce construction time.
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Dura-Ace and XTR have had a good name for decades for a reason. Maybe Shimano needs to consider using the latest Bluetooth protocol which has encryption built in and allows for low power transmission, or using Bluetooth so everything on the PAN (personal area network) can generate shared secrets, then using the existing Wi-Fi mechanism, use rolling codes. Every so often, everything powwows vie Bluetooth, refills their code storage.
Even if it is vulnerable, it definitely provides one major advantage... wei
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Shimano is just providing what the market wants. If they don't, SRAM or Campy will eat their lunch. XTR and Dura-Ace are no-holds-barred, best of breed, that for most people are nice to have, but not a must.
It also is evolution as well. Bikes are fairly static, and it is hard to find improvements that affect things. After indexed shifting, and disc brakes, it is about trying to get new stuff to the market to keep people buying, be it 29 inch wheels, electric components for faster shifting, shaving off a
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Maybe Shimano needs to consider using the latest Bluetooth protocol
Bluetooth has a guaranteed delay of 40 milliseconds. That is completely unacceptable for real-time needs such as changing gears or changing motor speed on an e-board. And yet somehow or another, electric skateboards come with bluetooth controllers. WTF?
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Congratulations on the (pointless) first post.
Is it really pointless? If you have a wireless system, it simply will be hacked. Shimano might be the world's best, but I can bet say, my annual paycheck that it can be shut down by me without even dealing with the software.
Laws of physics apply, not IOT brainiacs.
They made a mistake, simple as that.
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I can bet say, my annual paycheck that it can be shut down by me without even dealing with the software. With what, an EMP? I bet my annual paycheck your full mechanical drivetrain can be shut down by me without even dealing with anything besides my flamethrower.
No, not an EMP. Not trying to destroy the thing, just some RF that will make use of the capture effect. Doesn't take rocket surgery to do that.
Maybe someone would want to use electronics to control their shifter? That's fine. Just add the couple grams of weight and run a wire. Or maybe feel high tech and couple the controller with fiber. But in a sport that is as rife with cheating as professional bicycling, it seems not terribly wise to purposely utilize such vulnerable technology.
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Hmm. "RF that will make use of the capture effect" eh? But not out-of-bounds power like an EMP?
Use your pseudonym coward, if you want to continue the conversation. I wouldn't need to use an EMPburst. But since you brought up the report, let me school yinz a bit.
Specifically the parts where they say:
"(2) Susceptibility to targeted jamming, that allows an attacker to disable shifting on a specific target bike"
Design me a single frequency EMP device. One that is targeted. That's a trick question coward - do you understand?
"(3) Information leakage resulting from the use of ANT+ communicatio
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>This is Shimano, one of the best, highest-quality, most innovative bike component manufacturers on the planet.
Indeed. And since there's very little to innovate in bike components, since all the low and medium hanging fruit has been picked a long time ago. So like most companies in their position, they're stuck trying to figure out how to apply things from other fields into bikes to generate much more expensive halo products.
"So we have this gear shifter we already polished the hell out of over many deca
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... but instead focus on their core mission and that is to make a high quality product.
I see where you went wrong there: You thought their core mission was anything other than making money in the fastest way possible.
This hack is entirely predictable. So is the next hack.
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What's next, men pretending to be women to race against women?
Or someone born with a vagina being told they're a man?
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What's next, men pretending to be women to race against women?
Or someone born with a vagina being told they're a man?
I'm assuming this is a reference to Imane Khelif (since outside of Khelif's case, this is not exactly a frequently-occuring problem). Did I miss the news story where we found out they were born with a vagina?
It's an honest question-- I don't claim to keep up with every news cycle, so I really might have missed something. The last I heard, we just were told that Imane has "identified as female since birth". I'm sure you are aware that there are numerous intersex conditions which may cause a male to be mis
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Yes [sportingnews.com], you did [usatoday.com]. And so did everyone else who whined about her.
What is DSDs?
Differences in sex development is a set of rare conditions involving genes, hormones and reproductive organs that can cause the sexual development of a person to be different than others, according to the NHS.
Sometimes, this can lead to a person having XY chromosomes but develop otherwise female.
Khelif told UNICEF earlier this year that she was picked-on for participating in sports as a girl growing up, and had to raise money for her boxing lessons as her father did not approve of her getting into the sport, because she is a girl.
"The Algerian boxer was born female, was registered female, lived her life as a female, boxed as a female, has a female passport," IOC spokesperson Mark Adams said during a media briefing. "This is not a transgender case."
In other words, she has all the plumbing of every other woman, but because of her genetic construct, she has higher testosterone levels than most women and has the XY chromosome pattern when tested.
Re:Whats next (Score:4, Informative)
In other words, she has all the plumbing of every other woman, but because of her genetic construct, she has higher testosterone levels than most women and has the XY chromosome pattern when tested.
Well no, you can't conclude *any* of those things from the articles you quoted.
Let me start by saying that I do understand that it is possible to have XY chromosomes and a female anatomy. Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome will do that, for example. It is *also* possible for someone to have XY chromosomes and an anatomy that is neither typically male nor typically female. Partial androgen insensitivity will do that. Swyer's syndrome will also do that. I'm sure there are other examples (I'm a physician, but this is not my area of expertise).
What seems to have escaped your attention is the following:
1) We don't know what Sherif's genotype is. (XY? XX? Something else?) The IBA claimed at one point that she was XY, but no one trusts them.
2) We don't know whether Sherif has a form of DSD. (Quoting from the Sporting News article, which *you* linked to: "It is not verified that Khelif has a variation in sex traits or DSDs".)
3) If Sherif does have a form of DSD, we don't know which one. Not all of them result in the same anatomy, and some of them would result in a masculinized or partially masculinized anatomy.
4) No one knows what Sherif's testosterone levels are. (Again, the IBA claimed at one point that her testosterone levels were abnormally high for a female, but no one trusts them).
5) AFAIK, no one knows if Sherif uses exogenous hormones. (Generally speaking, supplementation with androgens is frowned upon in sport-- for men as well as women. The East Germans used to be notorious for this).
Let's look at what the IOC spokesman has said about Khelif: "The Algerian boxer was born female, was registered female, lived her life as a female, boxed as a female, has a female passport... this is not a transgender case". There are six different assertions of fact in this quote. The first five assertions are all assertions about her social identity; they do not address any of the medical questions I outlined above in my list. The sixth assertion ("this is not a transgender case") merely states that she has always identified as a female; again, it is a statement about social identity, not about anatomy or physiology.
All you've established is that we don't know anything about Sherif-- about their genetic makeup, their DSDs or lack thereof, their endocrinology, or anything else-- and since the IOC does not seem to be willing to provide any clarifying information on these topics, the public is understandably quite skeptical.
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"since the IOC does not seem to be willing to provide any clarifying information on these topics"
IOW, the IOC declined to get involved with the latest 'gay panic' bullshit here in the US. Seems like a good choice on their part.
Why are *you* getting involved in the latest gay panic culture war bullshit?
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All you've established is that we don't know anything about Sherif-- about their genetic makeup, their DSDs or lack thereof, their endocrinology, or anything else-- and since the IOC does not seem to be willing to provide any clarifying information on these topics, the public is understandably quite skeptical.
Did you just go through an entire post talking about how *her* social identity is confirmed in 5 different ways and then proceed to not use the pronoun that is appropriate for that social identity? You may not believe the biological aspects of it, but you don't need to be an (almost) deadnaming arsehole.
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It's interesting that you haven't responded at all to *any* of my points; you've just focused on my pronoun usage. Apparently you think that's the more important and interesting topic here. So OK, let's talk about pronouns.
When I'm talking to or about someone who is trans or intersexed, I use their preferred pronouns because it's the courteous thing to do. However, I am less likely to be careful about extending courtesy to someone who I think is contemptible. If Donald Trump or Vladimir Putin decided to
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The fact is that at Olympic level there are always going to be a lot of athletes who have unusual bodies that give them an advantage. Maybe it's time we looked at better categories or ways of competing that don't rely on outdated biology.
As for why the IOC hasn't published any more information, it would probably be illegal in France and many other countries. Private medical information is just that, private. It would be a disaster if they published medical data on any athlete who had allegations made agains
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As far as I know the only claim of XY was from an organisation so corrupt even the IOC didn't want them
Now can we please reinstate old farts laughing at expensive and largely unnecessary new tech?
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Yes, you did miss it. But they don't do groping tests like some people assume. In this case she was registered as a female at birth. Raised female, always been considered female. I don't know if they did the Trump Grab to tell for sure, but it's not necessary. But a recent genetic test shows XY chromosomes. Not a problem though, XY can still be 100% authentic female. Very often the Y chromosome might not be fully formed, missing parts, etc. Or the few necessary genes were missing, or not expressed at t
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See my reply to quonset, above.
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Keep in mind that the XY chromosome thing has not been confirmed. The source is the former head of the IBA, a Russian national from a now defunct boxing organization. The ICO did their own tests and concluded that she is eligible to compete.
The ICO has been working on this for over a century. They looked at chromosome tests, among many, many, many other things. The current test is testosterone based, which isn't ideal because it forces some women to take medication to lower their naturally high levels, but
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That's true, we don't know much. The whole thing seemed to blow up based upon some social media that some conservative politicians started reposting, which of course means post first and don't bother to get more information before or after.
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What's odd is she competed in 2020 and nobody said a goddamn word about her.
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I'm talking about a "possibly intersexed" person, not a trans person-- the only thing we know for sure about them is that they are *not* trans. Also, I'm a lifelong Democrat. Happy now?
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Nope. They failed to keep gay people from getting rights and have had a string of failures in trying to reverse that. They had to jump to an even smaller, more abused minority to gin up another boogeyman to scare and anger their voters. After all, scared and angry people turn out at the polls in higher numbers than calm ones.
Guess I got out of new gear just in time. (Score:5, Insightful)
I got a Bianchi a decade or so back that's probably gonna be my last bike. I can't imagine *EVER* wanting wireless shifters. Honestly, I was annoyed at how complicated speedometers have gotten. Give me speed, maybe cadence, and a way to track mileage. I don't need all of the stats all of the time. In fact, keep computers as far away from my bikes as possible.
I absolutely can not wrap my head around the obsession with wireless/internet/computer everything. It's a fucking bicycle! I don't care what it's made of, but god damn why would you ever want to computerize it? It's one of the few escapes we have from the constant digital onslaught.
This story legit makes me angry. And not at the people hacking them. At the people that thought it was a good idea to create the potential for them to be hacked. For fuck sake. I'm well past beginning to suspect we won't survive the information age. We're too god damned stupid for it.
Re:Guess I got out of new gear just in time. (Score:4, Interesting)
I can imagine it. Not that bicycles need the type of fly-by-wire setups that airplanes have, but it takes a significant amount of tension to move a shifter with a steel wire. And if you're racing, you'd have to constantly adjust tension and tightness of fittings to make sure that it shifts quickly and cleanly.
Casually riding? It would be a convenience but not a huge deal.
Though bicycles have already been designed with cable routing in mind. I'm not sure why going with wireless with multiple separate batteries makes more sense than just putting a power/data cable in place of the shifter cable.
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Real convenience is hub gears and a chain case. Popular with commuters who want a decent bike with absolutely minimal fuckery. You barely even need to lube the chain annually. Though some are now going for belt drive bikes.
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And if you're racing, you'd have to constantly adjust tension and tightness of fittings to make sure that it shifts quickly and cleanly.
No, you don't. I have five bikes with cable shifting, and aside from the one that has a cassette that isn't matched to the shifter - I ordered the wrong part, but I live with it - they never need adjusting, once I've set a new cable. And I ride them hard in training, up hills, in gravel, everywhere; typically for multiple seasons. If you're adjusting tension, you didn't do it correctly in the first place.
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And if you're racing, you'd have to constantly adjust tension and tightness of fittings to make sure that it shifts quickly and cleanly.
No, you don't. I have five bikes with cable shifting, and aside from the one that has a cassette that isn't matched to the shifter - I ordered the wrong part, but I live with it - they never need adjusting, once I've set a new cable. And I ride them hard in training, up hills, in gravel, everywhere; typically for multiple seasons. If you're adjusting tension, you didn't do it correctly in the first place.
I adjust, but only about once a season. I replace cables about every five years or so, but I only ride around 1200 miles a year give or take. The power guys probably need a bit more, but I can't imagine with all their teams of techs they *needed* wireless to prevent problems. I can ride for days without even batting an eye at adjustment. Wireless on a bicycle strikes me as absurd to an extreme I can't quite put into words.
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I ride about 8 miles a day, and I have a 20 year old Schwinn (yes, Schwinn) bike with yellowed urethane cable stays for which I've never had to replace the cables.
In the first place, cables don't weigh that much, and in the second place, if you knew anything about adjusting derailleurs, you'd wonder what the point of wireless shifters are. I think it's more about the impression of having the best equipment rather than the actual functionality.
I don't doubt there are some bad shift mechanisms out there
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Bikes are moving towards large cassettes with 12 gears, which makes building indeed shifters harder. Higher tolerance and all that.
I run friction shifters on my 7 speed rear freewheel and 2 speed front crank set
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That's real insightful. I knew enough about cheap shifters to know that some gear changes are harder to execute even just on the rear but as a casual rider, I might drop the front gear on a hill and not even touch the back. But if you wanted to go from top gear to bottom gear all at once, I don't even know how to execute that smoothly. I probably just wouldn't try for that.
The more I read about it the less I'm sold on wireless but the electric sounds great.
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Re: Guess I got out of new gear just in time. (Score:2)
I would only go electronic if it could reduce the frequency of the chain popping off during a shift.
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This is gear designed for and marketed to championship level competitors, not you or me. The difference in performance is small enough that the ordinary person won't be able to measure it, much less notice it. But at that championship level, hundreds of a second can make the difference.
Re: Guess I got out of new gear just in time. (Score:2)
Re: Guess I got out of new gear just in time. (Score:4, Insightful)
That's a good description of the benefits of electronic shifters. The benefits of going further, to wireless control, are less obvious, at least for the amateur cyclist.
Re: Guess I got out of new gear just in time. (Score:4)
Convenience that some want, and others don't. But not important. The more efficient shifting matters in professional competition. But at lower levels, it doesn't. It just makes the cyclist feel better about having spent all that money on expensive gear.
(It's like thousand dollar cat5 speaker cables with directional arrows on the insulation, that, objectively speaking, cannot outperform coat hanger wire, even for professional sound engineers, or wine snobs who can taste the difference between (what they believe is) $90/bottle wine and $10/bottle wine - that both were poured from the same bottle. If you expect a difference, you'll notice it - whether it's there or not.)
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Electronic shifting is an amazing improvement over mechanical. Shifts are much faster and more accurate, plus there is zero maintenance. Perfect shifts forever.
As for wireless, it simplifies the configuration and installation, plus while a single central battery may seem better it really is not. With wireless and local batteries you can carry spares and fix a low battery problem on the ride. Not that's a big problem.
So wireless electronic shifting is easily the best solution available, but for a high pr
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Electronic shifting is an amazing improvement over mechanical. Shifts are much faster and more accurate, plus there is zero maintenance.
The primary hinderance to performance with a bicycle is located between the seat and the handlebars. This biological propulsion module has a very limited RPM range and duty cycle. More sophisticated vehicle designs eliminate this performance bottleneck by removing the multi-gear transmission and associated linkages entirely, and instead provide a fully electric drivetrain.
Only catch is, that's considered "cheating".
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Wireless only has the benefit of installation.
Multiple batteries is not a benefit. You now need two types of spare batteries, and have to charge two things.
Re: Guess I got out of new gear just in time. (Score:3)
In a decade, you've never once had to stop to adjust your cable tension mid-ride so it shifts cleanly? You've never once put your bike on a cradle-style carrier to find that your cable has been kinked requiring the same, just as you're ready to unload and ride? You've never had a vandal with fingernail clippers and
I also think you must misunderstand the term "cycling computer" if you think i
Re: Guess I got out of new gear just in time. (Score:2)
You've never had a vandal with fingernail clippers and .75 seconds to render your bike completely unridable?
No, have you? Sounds like a rough crowd where you are. Of course a proper vandal would snip your brake cables instead :)
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In a decade, you've never once had to....
Nope. Not once in the last two and a half decades has any of that happened. Of course, that timeline also corresponds to when I got my first car and hung my bike in the garage.
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No? None of those things. I have occasionally had a derailleur whacked in a bike rack requiring adjustments but that's not mid ride. And I've not had that in years
I now run friction shifters front and rear on my commuter. Works perfectly every single time. Nothing to adjust, and really I barely use the small ring anyway.
Also who the fuck vandalizes bikes with nail clippers? As opposed to you know kicking the wheels, stealing stuff or setting it on fire. Lost a nice old school Peaugot racer that way.
I can't
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Thanks for the reminder not to bike across your lawn, old man. In a decade, you've never once had to stop to adjust your cable tension mid-ride so it shifts cleanly? You've never once put your bike on a cradle-style carrier to find that your cable has been kinked requiring the same, just as you're ready to unload and ride? You've never had a vandal with fingernail clippers and .75 seconds to render your bike completely unridable?
I don't leave my bike propped up out in public. And no, I've never had to adjust mid ride. Sometimes after the winter break, and that's about it.
I also think you must misunderstand the term "cycling computer" if you think it's part of a "constant digital onslaught." We're not checking Facebook and watching Netflix on them.
No, but I see absolutely zero need to have every stat pushed the cloud. Fuck that shit. I bike to get away from all this nonsense, not to try to strap another stat collector on me.
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I got a Bianchi a decade or so back that's probably gonna be my last bike. I can't imagine *EVER* wanting wireless shifters.
I not only can imagine wanting wireless shifters, I specifically bought them so I could integrate them with my trainer, all the while mocking those people who spend thousands on a Peleton for a home spin session. That's before you consider the mechanical aspects of it in a sport.
Honestly, I was annoyed at how complicated speedometers have gotten. Give me speed, maybe cadence, and a way to track mileage.
Different products for different people. My minimum requirements for my bike speedometer was to show a GPS map. Your requirements should not limit mine. There's countless products on the market to suit your use case, as there are pl
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I got a Bianchi a decade or so back that's probably gonna be my last bike. I can't imagine *EVER* wanting wireless shifters. Honestly, I was annoyed at how complicated speedometers have gotten. Give me speed, maybe cadence, and a way to track mileage. I don't need all of the stats all of the time. In fact, keep computers as far away from my bikes as possible.
I absolutely can not wrap my head around the obsession with wireless/internet/computer everything. It's a fucking bicycle! I don't care what it's made of, but god damn why would you ever want to computerize it? It's one of the few escapes we have from the constant digital onslaught.
This story legit makes me angry. And not at the people hacking them. At the people that thought it was a good idea to create the potential for them to be hacked. For fuck sake. I'm well past beginning to suspect we won't survive the information age. We're too god damned stupid for it.
hmm. I have a Cannondale Synapse of about the same vintage as your Bianci. I wanted a long-range road bike (read: lightweight and comfortable when I'm in the saddle for hours on end) and I settled on it after Navardauskas rode one to a stage victory in the Tour. It has the DI2 (wired)) and a Dura-Ace hub, and shifting is a joy. The engineers that design bikes, and the trainers that coach us, all rely on technology to provide us the best path to our personal goals. I compete on an amateur level, yes,
Never heard of electronics in regular bikes (Score:2)
Until I read this, didn't even know there were electronic components in non-electric bikes now that weren't simply GPS-based trackers or meters of some kind (like speed/distance ones); the "smartest" gearing system I had known until now was the automatic shift bike [wikipedia.org] that came out decades ago.
I guess hacking is the cost of doing away with the traditional "shift-by-cable" system.
Re:Never heard of electronics in regular bikes (Score:4, Insightful)
Until I read this, didn't even know there were electronic components in non-electric bikes now
I'm not surprised. If you can buy a fridge with a giant Android tablet in the door, there had to be companies cramming technology in other places where it doesn't belong, too.
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cramming technology in other places where it doesn't belong
Like a bluetooth enabled butt-plug? How's that for taking your comment literally? (And yes, they exist)
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Like a bluetooth enabled butt-plug? How's that for taking your comment literally? (And yes, they exist)
Those things are commonly used by adult webcam entertainers, where the device remotely reacts to tips (of the monetary sort). Considering that they're filling a specific hole in the marketplace, I'd classify wireless butt-plugs just as an unconventional yet cromulent use of technology.
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Considering that they're filling a specific hole in the marketplace, I
Well played sir!
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there had to be companies cramming technology in other places where it doesn't belong, too.
Who says it doesn't belong there? You may be okay with buying a Peloton for spinning at home, but for many others they use electronic devices on their road bike along with a resistance trainer and software to train.
Is this like saying running should be done with your feet and being upset that people listen to music or wear fitbits while doing so?
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You have to go pretty high end before you start getting electric things.
The vast majority of riders won't benefit. I'm always entertained by the number of people on decent bikes (carbon fiber frame, aerofoil seat tube, deep rims and the obligatory extra loud freewheel) who appear to rarely change and slog away in third.
Electronic shifters only help if you actually shift on the regular. I'm happy with my friction shifters for now.
Easier hack (Score:3)
Just have a jammer. Nothing sophisticated, but you trigger it when your competition is likely to need to shift. Their gears don't move, yours do, and off you go.
But forget that. Why would you want wireless components on your bike anyway? I really wouldn't want a dead battery to brick my bike on me.
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There are actually a lot of perks to wireless.
One is you don't have to worry about cables, either where to fit them on the frame, when they wear out, where the housing goes, and cables wear/break as well 'bricking' your bike too.
Installing the SRAM wireless is dead easy. Bolt on the front and rear mechs, and you're nearly done.
Once it's set up, you never have to adjust it. Ever. It just works until the motors die.
In the case of SRAM, the front and rear mech each have their own battery, and it's the same typ
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Sure, but as I already highlighted, cables snap too.
Typically when the battery dies, you can at least get yourself into a gear that you'd want to limp home in. It'll just stay in that gear.
When your cable snaps, you're stuck in your biggest gear. Unless you know a hack to stick it in an easier gear, you're in the same boat, but possibly worse.
It's not like when the batteries die you have to get off and walk.
IS it really cycling anymore? (Score:3)
Ok, not having a front suspension can be a safety issue, but everything else isn't a test of cycling skill; it is riding with enthusiasm.
Keep these things off my lawn.
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Modern suspension (electronic wtf)
Adjusting suspension stiffness to suit a condition can give you a competitive edge. No wtf there.
electronic shifting (does this auto shift when it detects your efficiency needs a gear change?)
Who said auto-shift? Why would any professional cyclist leave it up to a computer to adjust their shift during a contest. They are far more aware of what gear is needed than a computer is.
This is about doing away with wires, it's about accurate and finely controlled movement of the derailleur, it's about shifting to a target gear without having to jump 1-2 gears at a time. It's about transferring power into the
Wired (Score:3)
>"In recent years, those wired electronic shifters have transitioned again to wireless versions that pair via a radio connection"
And there is the problem. Instead of using an easy, short, cheap, reliable, wired connection, they go for "wireless." It really makes very little sense. You immediately make the bike hackable and subject to interference, and the setup far more complex. And for what? You are not roaming around, the shifter will always be exactly X cm from the control. What's next? Wireless brakes????
There are times wireless is great. And times it doesn't make sense at all. This would be the latter case, for sure.
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You're assuming only one device needs to connect to a shifter. These days you can buy resistance wheels that integrate with shifters to turn your road bike into an advanced automated home trainer including dynamically adjusting difficulty.
Also professional sports is largely data driven these days. Having coaches be able to see data in real time is how these guys edge the last bit of performance out of the people.
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Both Sram and Shimano brought electronic shifting to market about the same time.
Shimano is very conservative, so their first version was wired. It used a single large battery that you stuck inside the seatpost, with wires running to the derailleurs and shifters. It was fairly popular and by all accounts worked great, but then again it was the only thing on the market for a
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The last thing you need when trying to navigate terrain with other cyclists and cars around you is having to deal with a shif
Keyed? (Score:1)
Solving a problem that didn't exist? (Score:2)
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The only thing I can come up with is that advertising this wireless crap (by installing it on their bikes) got the team sponsorship from the companies producing the wireless crap.
Because the only problem this solves is "Shimano wants to charge more for bike parts".
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Was the cable running down from the lever to the device really that much of a problem?
Yes, which is why high-end bikes already integrated the cable into the frame.
And with wireless there are now two batteries that you need to keep charged.
If that's your biggest concern you'll be fine. The batteries are required if it is wired too. How does your coach know what gear you're in? How does your electronic shifter work without a battery? Electronic shifters are much like electronic shifters in cars, they are far more accurate and provide a significant performance advantage over a human manually operating a clutch. Watching a Shimano or SRAM electronic shifter work in slow
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Hub gears prevent all chain drops in road situations too, and need way less maintenance. You don't even need to oil the chain. Not that I have a problem with chain drops anyway road riding.
Multi thousand dollar kit doesn't make riding more approachable. It's only for people who are in way deep already.
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Front derailleur shifts absolutely suck for all types of cycling. In addition to being hard to execute, it takes only a minor provocation to get a chain drop. The derailleur itself can travel far enough in either direction to drop the chain. The motion is limited via the cable and sh
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I've never owned a bike with them but would be happy to experiment. The lack of maintenance is especially appealing. That's doubly true if the free hub needs less maintenance.
they don't have a freehub. Something like this:
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU... [shimano.com]
I've never had a chance to try this beaut, but the local LBS guy has one and was impressed with it.:
https://www.rohloff.de/en/prod... [rohloff.de]
Front derailleur shifts absolutely suck for all types of cycling. In addition to being hard to execute, it takes only a mino
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More importantly, we both can tell when somethin
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You and I can both do minor bicycle maintenance and repair so minor maintenance like a derailleur adjustment isn't really a big deal to me. I'm always willing to take my bike in for maintenance periodically. I have a good LBS within riding distance of my house.
I usually do most of it myself (up to and including replacing the frame). The LBS did offer me the work for replacing the crankset as part of the cost and I took it in. Glad I did: the pedals had seized into the cranks and they couldn't remove them,
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.. you're talking about just the normal thing when the chain falls off the sprockets here? As in exactly the same process to put it back after replacing an inner tube??
Yes, that's what I'm talking about. There are many people who ride bicycles who can't do this. You do have to open the rear derailleur in order to have enough chain to get the chain back on the sprockets and I can see somebody who is not confident being scared to do that. There are many riders who can't change a tire. The local bicycle group requires everyone to have a spare tube with them, but we know that if somebody has a flat, the ride leader is going to have to change it for them.
Yes, when I dec
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Yes, that's what I'm talking about.
Honestly: mind blown!
There are many people who ride bicycles who can't do this. You do have to open the rear derailleur in order to have enough chain to get the chain back on the sprockets and I can see somebody who is not confident being scared to do that.
I mean, sure, casuals. But if you're going for looong bike rides, that's just an amazing recipe for a very long walk home!! I mean my dad showed me how before I was even a teenager. It's something quite literally that
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Don't the ride leaders get vexed about people being really useless?
No. At least not in the group to which I am referring. One of the goals is cyclist development. There are at least a dozen rides a weak and many of them are D rides or "slow" rides. If you're in an A or B ride and something goes wrong that you can't handle, you're on your own. But at C or lower, nobody gets dropped and nobody gets left behind. You're not going to get anybody excited about cycling and being part of a faster group by leaving them on the edge of a road fifteen miles from the start with a
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Huh!
I mean OK, if you're doing beginner's rides, it makes sense. Though arguably more in a teach-a-man-to-fish way. But I am genuinely surprised by this:
There are many serious riders who can't handle things. At every road race/triathlon I've seen there are non-aligned race support bicycle mechanics there to help people because so many riders cant even do basic maintenance.
I mean I kind of wonder how these people cope when they get back home! It's a massive time suck (and fairly expensive!) to take a bike t
Real bikes (Score:2)
don't shift themselves!
undo (Score:2)
That's "its" (Score:1)
That's "its", retard.