Catch up on stories from the past week (and beyond) at the Slashdot story archive

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Security

Researchers Hack Electronic Shifters With a Few Hundred Dollars of Hardware 125

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Wired: Professional cycling has, in its recent history, been prone to a shocking variety of cheating methods and dirty tricks.Performance-enhancing drugs.Tacks strewn on race courses. Even stealthy motors hidden inside of wheel hubs. Now, for those who fail to download a software patch for their gear shifters -- yes, bike components now get software updates -- there may be hacker saboteurs to contend with, too. At the Usenix Workshop on Offensive Technologies earlier this week, researchers from UC San Diego and Northeastern University revealed a technique that would allow anyone with a few hundred dollars of hardware to hack Shimano wireless gear-shifting systems (Warning: source may be paywalled; alternative source) of the kind used by many of the top cycling teams in the world, including in recent events like the Olympics and the Tour de France. Their relatively simple radio attack would allow cheaters or vandals to spoof signals from as far as 30 feet away that trigger a target bike to unexpectedly shift gears or to jam its shifters and lock the bike into the wrong gear.

The trick would, the researchers say, easily be enough to hamper a rival on a climb or, if timed to certain intense moments of a race, even cause dangerous instability. "The capability is full control of the gears. Imagine you're going uphill on a Tour de France stage: If someone shifts your bike from an easy gear to a hard one, you're going to lose time," says Earlence Fernandes, an assistant professor at UCSD's Computer Science and Engineering department. "Or if someone is sprinting in the big chain ring and you move it to the small one, you can totally crash a person's bike like that." [...] The researchers' technique exploits the increasingly electronic nature of modern high-end bicycles, which now have digital components like power meters, wireless control of fork suspensions, and wireless shifters. "Modern bicycles are cyber-physical systems," the researchers note in their Usenix paper. Almost all professional cyclists now use electronic shifters, which respond to digital signals from shifter controls on the bike's handlebars to move a bicycle's chain from gear to gear, generally more reliably than mechanical shifting systems. In recent years, those wired electronic shifters have transitioned again to wireless versions that pair via a radio connection, such as the popular Di2 wireless shifters sold by the Japanese cycling component firm Shimano, which the researchers focused on.
Shimano says it has developed a firmware update to patch the exploit but it won't be available widely until late August. The update is intended to improve wireless transmission across Shimano Di2 component platforms, though specific details about the fix and how it prevents the identified attacks have not been disclosed for security reasons.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Researchers Hack Electronic Shifters With a Few Hundred Dollars of Hardware

Comments Filter:
  • IoT problems (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Luckyo ( 1726890 ) on Thursday August 15, 2024 @04:26PM (#64709728)

    This is standard in world of IoT. A new maker of "certain specialist things" figures out they can save money, effort, weight, capacity, etc on making something formerly analogue, local and wired into digital, covering significant area and wireless.

    And run into the security issues with this transformation.

    • Re:IoT problems (Score:5, Interesting)

      by dfghjk ( 711126 ) on Thursday August 15, 2024 @04:49PM (#64709802)

      And yet SRAM, who did it first, did not suffer this problem. Not only that, they stated publicly that they avoided an obvious design specifically to avoid this problem, a design that Shimano subsequently chose to employ.

      So while your observation may appear superficially interesting to an uninformed person, it is not.

      • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

        Are you familiar with expression "exception that reinforces the rule"?

        It exists for a reason. Because we had this exact problem in everything from refrigerators to industrial machinery to speakers.

      • Was SRAM really thinking about this type of hacking with Airea? I believe you although a citation would be nice. It seems that they were primarily concerned with assuaging fears of interference during group rides. Shimano came later to the game and it seems that the market had moved past such fears. I believe the Shimao system is immune to inadvertent interference.
    • I don't think that a cable running from the control lever to the gearbox would add any significant weight to a bike. Even the old fashioned steel cable shifter wouldn't do this. So this must've been a cost cutting measure.
      • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

        A lot of automotive has gone from bolts to plastic clips to save weight and reduce construction time. A decent chunk of it is going partially wireless to save weight and reduce construction time.

      • Electric shifters for bikes aren't 1:1 replacements for their manually operated counterparts. Both Shimano and SRAM have coordinated shifting modes that will synchronize between the chaining and the cassette. For a wired system, you would need either an additional cable between the two shifters or you would have to have both shifters connected to both the front and rear derailleurs the latter being double the number of cables as a manual gearset. Connecting the two shifters with an additional cable would
  • by nightflameauto ( 6607976 ) on Thursday August 15, 2024 @04:42PM (#64709780)

    I got a Bianchi a decade or so back that's probably gonna be my last bike. I can't imagine *EVER* wanting wireless shifters. Honestly, I was annoyed at how complicated speedometers have gotten. Give me speed, maybe cadence, and a way to track mileage. I don't need all of the stats all of the time. In fact, keep computers as far away from my bikes as possible.

    I absolutely can not wrap my head around the obsession with wireless/internet/computer everything. It's a fucking bicycle! I don't care what it's made of, but god damn why would you ever want to computerize it? It's one of the few escapes we have from the constant digital onslaught.

    This story legit makes me angry. And not at the people hacking them. At the people that thought it was a good idea to create the potential for them to be hacked. For fuck sake. I'm well past beginning to suspect we won't survive the information age. We're too god damned stupid for it.

    • by omnichad ( 1198475 ) on Thursday August 15, 2024 @04:49PM (#64709798) Homepage

      I can imagine it. Not that bicycles need the type of fly-by-wire setups that airplanes have, but it takes a significant amount of tension to move a shifter with a steel wire. And if you're racing, you'd have to constantly adjust tension and tightness of fittings to make sure that it shifts quickly and cleanly.

      Casually riding? It would be a convenience but not a huge deal.

      Though bicycles have already been designed with cable routing in mind. I'm not sure why going with wireless with multiple separate batteries makes more sense than just putting a power/data cable in place of the shifter cable.

      • Real convenience is hub gears and a chain case. Popular with commuters who want a decent bike with absolutely minimal fuckery. You barely even need to lube the chain annually. Though some are now going for belt drive bikes.

      • And if you're racing, you'd have to constantly adjust tension and tightness of fittings to make sure that it shifts quickly and cleanly.

        No, you don't. I have five bikes with cable shifting, and aside from the one that has a cassette that isn't matched to the shifter - I ordered the wrong part, but I live with it - they never need adjusting, once I've set a new cable. And I ride them hard in training, up hills, in gravel, everywhere; typically for multiple seasons. If you're adjusting tension, you didn't do it correctly in the first place.

        • And if you're racing, you'd have to constantly adjust tension and tightness of fittings to make sure that it shifts quickly and cleanly.

          No, you don't. I have five bikes with cable shifting, and aside from the one that has a cassette that isn't matched to the shifter - I ordered the wrong part, but I live with it - they never need adjusting, once I've set a new cable. And I ride them hard in training, up hills, in gravel, everywhere; typically for multiple seasons. If you're adjusting tension, you didn't do it correctly in the first place.

          I adjust, but only about once a season. I replace cables about every five years or so, but I only ride around 1200 miles a year give or take. The power guys probably need a bit more, but I can't imagine with all their teams of techs they *needed* wireless to prevent problems. I can ride for days without even batting an eye at adjustment. Wireless on a bicycle strikes me as absurd to an extreme I can't quite put into words.

      • The electric shifters are great for casual riding. Quality gear shifting on a bicycle is a skill that many struggle to master. The *rear* shifter acts on the part of the chain not under tension and won't operate correctly if you aren't applying much force to the pedals The front derailleur, on the other hand, operates on a tensioned segment. It won't shift properly when applying tension. The gear ratios on a bicycle are usually such that the "next" gear (in terms of next highest or lowest ratio) involv
        • That's real insightful. I knew enough about cheap shifters to know that some gear changes are harder to execute even just on the rear but as a casual rider, I might drop the front gear on a hill and not even touch the back. But if you wanted to go from top gear to bottom gear all at once, I don't even know how to execute that smoothly. I probably just wouldn't try for that.

          The more I read about it the less I'm sold on wireless but the electric sounds great.

          • The more cross-chaining you have, the harder it is to execute the gear change. If you approach a hill suddenly, dropping just the front gear is probably a good choice. But if you are riding on a slight uphill that gets slightly steeper and want a slightly lower gear, the correct shift might be to drop the front gear while increasing the rear. Unfortunately, most riders would execute this poorly and lose significant momentum to the point that they would need to drop further in which case they could have s
      • Shifting by steel wire is only difficult if you have no thumbs.

        I would only go electronic if it could reduce the frequency of the chain popping off during a shift.
    • by taustin ( 171655 )

      This is gear designed for and marketed to championship level competitors, not you or me. The difference in performance is small enough that the ordinary person won't be able to measure it, much less notice it. But at that championship level, hundreds of a second can make the difference.

      • No. "You and me" might notice it every single time we don't have to adjust our cable tension for clean shifting. Or we might notice it when the derailleur shifts through the gears at a non-de-railing rate in spite of how we moved the shifters. There are other reasons.
        • by Jeremi ( 14640 ) on Thursday August 15, 2024 @05:11PM (#64709872) Homepage

          That's a good description of the benefits of electronic shifters. The benefits of going further, to wireless control, are less obvious, at least for the amateur cyclist.

        • Convenience that some want, and others don't. But not important. The more efficient shifting matters in professional competition. But at lower levels, it doesn't. It just makes the cyclist feel better about having spent all that money on expensive gear.

          (It's like thousand dollar cat5 speaker cables with directional arrows on the insulation, that, objectively speaking, cannot outperform coat hanger wire, even for professional sound engineers, or wine snobs who can taste the difference between (what they believe is) $90/bottle wine and $10/bottle wine - that both were poured from the same bottle. If you expect a difference, you'll notice it - whether it's there or not.)

    • by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      Electronic shifting is an amazing improvement over mechanical. Shifts are much faster and more accurate, plus there is zero maintenance. Perfect shifts forever.

      As for wireless, it simplifies the configuration and installation, plus while a single central battery may seem better it really is not. With wireless and local batteries you can carry spares and fix a low battery problem on the ride. Not that's a big problem.

      So wireless electronic shifting is easily the best solution available, but for a high pr

      • Electronic shifting is an amazing improvement over mechanical. Shifts are much faster and more accurate, plus there is zero maintenance.

        The primary hinderance to performance with a bicycle is located between the seat and the handlebars. This biological propulsion module has a very limited RPM range and duty cycle. More sophisticated vehicle designs eliminate this performance bottleneck by removing the multi-gear transmission and associated linkages entirely, and instead provide a fully electric drivetrain.

        Only catch is, that's considered "cheating".

      • Wireless only has the benefit of installation.
        Multiple batteries is not a benefit. You now need two types of spare batteries, and have to charge two things.

    • Thanks for the reminder not to bike across your lawn, old man.

      In a decade, you've never once had to stop to adjust your cable tension mid-ride so it shifts cleanly? You've never once put your bike on a cradle-style carrier to find that your cable has been kinked requiring the same, just as you're ready to unload and ride? You've never had a vandal with fingernail clippers and .75 seconds to render your bike completely unridable?

      I also think you must misunderstand the term "cycling computer" if you think i
      • You've never had a vandal with fingernail clippers and .75 seconds to render your bike completely unridable?

        No, have you? Sounds like a rough crowd where you are. Of course a proper vandal would snip your brake cables instead :)

      • by Pascoea ( 968200 )

        In a decade, you've never once had to....

        Nope. Not once in the last two and a half decades has any of that happened. Of course, that timeline also corresponds to when I got my first car and hung my bike in the garage.

      • Also never had to worry about batteries in order ride.
      • "You've never had a vandal with fingernail clippers and .75 seconds to render your bike completely unridable?" A bike vandal can do much more damage than that in under a minute no matter what you have. And you won't even have a bike if your "Ultra Superman New York Unbreakable Lock" turns out to have a serious design flaw that a professional non casual bike thief knows about.
      • No? None of those things. I have occasionally had a derailleur whacked in a bike rack requiring adjustments but that's not mid ride. And I've not had that in years

        I now run friction shifters front and rear on my commuter. Works perfectly every single time. Nothing to adjust, and really I barely use the small ring anyway.

        Also who the fuck vandalizes bikes with nail clippers? As opposed to you know kicking the wheels, stealing stuff or setting it on fire. Lost a nice old school Peaugot racer that way.

        I can't

      • Thanks for the reminder not to bike across your lawn, old man. In a decade, you've never once had to stop to adjust your cable tension mid-ride so it shifts cleanly? You've never once put your bike on a cradle-style carrier to find that your cable has been kinked requiring the same, just as you're ready to unload and ride? You've never had a vandal with fingernail clippers and .75 seconds to render your bike completely unridable?

        I don't leave my bike propped up out in public. And no, I've never had to adjust mid ride. Sometimes after the winter break, and that's about it.

        I also think you must misunderstand the term "cycling computer" if you think it's part of a "constant digital onslaught." We're not checking Facebook and watching Netflix on them.

        No, but I see absolutely zero need to have every stat pushed the cloud. Fuck that shit. I bike to get away from all this nonsense, not to try to strap another stat collector on me.

    • I got a Bianchi a decade or so back that's probably gonna be my last bike. I can't imagine *EVER* wanting wireless shifters.

      I not only can imagine wanting wireless shifters, I specifically bought them so I could integrate them with my trainer, all the while mocking those people who spend thousands on a Peleton for a home spin session. That's before you consider the mechanical aspects of it in a sport.

      Honestly, I was annoyed at how complicated speedometers have gotten. Give me speed, maybe cadence, and a way to track mileage.

      Different products for different people. My minimum requirements for my bike speedometer was to show a GPS map. Your requirements should not limit mine. There's countless products on the market to suit your use case, as there are pl

    • I got a Bianchi a decade or so back that's probably gonna be my last bike. I can't imagine *EVER* wanting wireless shifters. Honestly, I was annoyed at how complicated speedometers have gotten. Give me speed, maybe cadence, and a way to track mileage. I don't need all of the stats all of the time. In fact, keep computers as far away from my bikes as possible.

      I absolutely can not wrap my head around the obsession with wireless/internet/computer everything. It's a fucking bicycle! I don't care what it's made of, but god damn why would you ever want to computerize it? It's one of the few escapes we have from the constant digital onslaught.

      This story legit makes me angry. And not at the people hacking them. At the people that thought it was a good idea to create the potential for them to be hacked. For fuck sake. I'm well past beginning to suspect we won't survive the information age. We're too god damned stupid for it.

      hmm. I have a Cannondale Synapse of about the same vintage as your Bianci. I wanted a long-range road bike (read: lightweight and comfortable when I'm in the saddle for hours on end) and I settled on it after Navardauskas rode one to a stage victory in the Tour. It has the DI2 (wired)) and a Dura-Ace hub, and shifting is a joy. The engineers that design bikes, and the trainers that coach us, all rely on technology to provide us the best path to our personal goals. I compete on an amateur level, yes,

  • Until I read this, didn't even know there were electronic components in non-electric bikes now that weren't simply GPS-based trackers or meters of some kind (like speed/distance ones); the "smartest" gearing system I had known until now was the automatic shift bike [wikipedia.org] that came out decades ago.

    I guess hacking is the cost of doing away with the traditional "shift-by-cable" system.

    • by Powercntrl ( 458442 ) on Thursday August 15, 2024 @05:01PM (#64709852) Homepage

      Until I read this, didn't even know there were electronic components in non-electric bikes now

      I'm not surprised. If you can buy a fridge with a giant Android tablet in the door, there had to be companies cramming technology in other places where it doesn't belong, too.

      • by Pascoea ( 968200 )

        cramming technology in other places where it doesn't belong

        Like a bluetooth enabled butt-plug? How's that for taking your comment literally? (And yes, they exist)

        • Like a bluetooth enabled butt-plug? How's that for taking your comment literally? (And yes, they exist)

          Those things are commonly used by adult webcam entertainers, where the device remotely reacts to tips (of the monetary sort). Considering that they're filling a specific hole in the marketplace, I'd classify wireless butt-plugs just as an unconventional yet cromulent use of technology.

      • there had to be companies cramming technology in other places where it doesn't belong, too.

        Who says it doesn't belong there? You may be okay with buying a Peloton for spinning at home, but for many others they use electronic devices on their road bike along with a resistance trainer and software to train.

        Is this like saying running should be done with your feet and being upset that people listen to music or wear fitbits while doing so?

    • You have to go pretty high end before you start getting electric things.

      The vast majority of riders won't benefit. I'm always entertained by the number of people on decent bikes (carbon fiber frame, aerofoil seat tube, deep rims and the obligatory extra loud freewheel) who appear to rarely change and slog away in third.

      Electronic shifters only help if you actually shift on the regular. I'm happy with my friction shifters for now.

  • by Baron_Yam ( 643147 ) on Thursday August 15, 2024 @05:18PM (#64709890)

    Just have a jammer. Nothing sophisticated, but you trigger it when your competition is likely to need to shift. Their gears don't move, yours do, and off you go.

    But forget that. Why would you want wireless components on your bike anyway? I really wouldn't want a dead battery to brick my bike on me.

    • There are actually a lot of perks to wireless.

      One is you don't have to worry about cables, either where to fit them on the frame, when they wear out, where the housing goes, and cables wear/break as well 'bricking' your bike too.

      Installing the SRAM wireless is dead easy. Bolt on the front and rear mechs, and you're nearly done.

      Once it's set up, you never have to adjust it. Ever. It just works until the motors die.

      In the case of SRAM, the front and rear mech each have their own battery, and it's the same typ

  • by Fly Swatter ( 30498 ) on Thursday August 15, 2024 @05:49PM (#64709968) Homepage
    Modern suspension (electronic wtf), electronic shifting (does this auto shift when it detects your efficiency needs a gear change?), at this point it is just a pure spinning of pedals competition. Might as well put these competitions into hamster wheels.

    Ok, not having a front suspension can be a safety issue, but everything else isn't a test of cycling skill; it is riding with enthusiasm.

    Keep these things off my lawn.
    • Modern suspension (electronic wtf)

      Adjusting suspension stiffness to suit a condition can give you a competitive edge. No wtf there.

      electronic shifting (does this auto shift when it detects your efficiency needs a gear change?)

      Who said auto-shift? Why would any professional cyclist leave it up to a computer to adjust their shift during a contest. They are far more aware of what gear is needed than a computer is.

      This is about doing away with wires, it's about accurate and finely controlled movement of the derailleur, it's about shifting to a target gear without having to jump 1-2 gears at a time. It's about transferring power into the

  • by markdavis ( 642305 ) on Thursday August 15, 2024 @05:58PM (#64709984)

    >"In recent years, those wired electronic shifters have transitioned again to wireless versions that pair via a radio connection"

    And there is the problem. Instead of using an easy, short, cheap, reliable, wired connection, they go for "wireless." It really makes very little sense. You immediately make the bike hackable and subject to interference, and the setup far more complex. And for what? You are not roaming around, the shifter will always be exactly X cm from the control. What's next? Wireless brakes????

    There are times wireless is great. And times it doesn't make sense at all. This would be the latter case, for sure.

    • You're assuming only one device needs to connect to a shifter. These days you can buy resistance wheels that integrate with shifters to turn your road bike into an advanced automated home trainer including dynamically adjusting difficulty.

      Also professional sports is largely data driven these days. Having coaches be able to see data in real time is how these guys edge the last bit of performance out of the people.

    • Wired was already tried for this application, and it already failed. It turns out if you have to use wires, you might as well use cables.

      Both Sram and Shimano brought electronic shifting to market about the same time.

      Shimano is very conservative, so their first version was wired. It used a single large battery that you stuck inside the seatpost, with wires running to the derailleurs and shifters. It was fairly popular and by all accounts worked great, but then again it was the only thing on the market for a
    • There is no such thing a an "easy" wired connection on a bicycle. That's doubly true when you need to coordinate between shifters that are on opposite sides of the handlebars. I still ride with manual shifters. But I don't ride much anymore. If I were going to get serious about cycling again, I'd spend the money on a proper electric shifting system. Especially when road biking.

      The last thing you need when trying to navigate terrain with other cyclists and cars around you is having to deal with a shif

  • I've been wondering if the signal is keyed to the shifters to prevent interference from someone next to you in the pack. I should look at the technical notes even though I have no intention (or money) for upgrading
  • Why need a wireless gear shifter? Was the cable running down from the lever to the device really that much of a problem? And with wireless there are now two batteries that you need to keep charged.
    • The only thing I can come up with is that advertising this wireless crap (by installing it on their bikes) got the team sponsorship from the companies producing the wireless crap.

      Because the only problem this solves is "Shimano wants to charge more for bike parts".

    • It's money. That's it. You can see the zealots justifying and rationalizing, above, but it's really just about selling a new and improved mousetrap. And the pretentious twats with more money than brains go for it.
      • And now there is a critical component that can get hacked as TFA states, or something that can be jammed unintentionally by a stray radio signal or EMF that shits on the spectrum. When it comes to something that can actually result in injury or death if it fails, I don't want it relying on insecure and unreliable by nature radio frequencies to work.
    • Was the cable running down from the lever to the device really that much of a problem?

      Yes, which is why high-end bikes already integrated the cable into the frame.

      And with wireless there are now two batteries that you need to keep charged.

      If that's your biggest concern you'll be fine. The batteries are required if it is wired too. How does your coach know what gear you're in? How does your electronic shifter work without a battery? Electronic shifters are much like electronic shifters in cars, they are far more accurate and provide a significant performance advantage over a human manually operating a clutch. Watching a Shimano or SRAM electronic shifter work in slow

    • Was the cable a problem? No. Were manual shifters a problem? Yes. If you want a wide cassette, the rear derailleur becomes a massive mechanical device that needs some way to take up excess chain length (so it doesn't drag on the ground in smaller gears.) Better to use a 2T or 3T chaining. But front derailleur shifts, with the manual systems, are notoriously hard. And a front shift gone awry pulls the cyclist attention away from what's around then and creates not just inconvenience but safety issues.
      • Hub gears prevent all chain drops in road situations too, and need way less maintenance. You don't even need to oil the chain. Not that I have a problem with chain drops anyway road riding.

        Multi thousand dollar kit doesn't make riding more approachable. It's only for people who are in way deep already.

        • I am not saying anything bad about hub gears. I've never owned a bike with them but would be happy to experiment. The lack of maintenance is especially appealing. That's doubly true if the free hub needs less maintenance.

          Front derailleur shifts absolutely suck for all types of cycling. In addition to being hard to execute, it takes only a minor provocation to get a chain drop. The derailleur itself can travel far enough in either direction to drop the chain. The motion is limited via the cable and sh

          • I've never owned a bike with them but would be happy to experiment. The lack of maintenance is especially appealing. That's doubly true if the free hub needs less maintenance.

            they don't have a freehub. Something like this:

            https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU... [shimano.com]

            I've never had a chance to try this beaut, but the local LBS guy has one and was impressed with it.:

            https://www.rohloff.de/en/prod... [rohloff.de]

            Front derailleur shifts absolutely suck for all types of cycling. In addition to being hard to execute, it takes only a mino

            • You and I can both do minor bicycle maintenance and repair so minor maintenance like a derailleur adjustment isn't really a big deal to me. I'm always willing to take my bike in for maintenance periodically. I have a good LBS within riding distance of my house. There's also a smaller chain near me where the bicycle mechanic is fantastic and so I do use them for service sometimes (like when I needed my free hub replaced because that's beyond my abilities.)

              More importantly, we both can tell when somethin

              • You and I can both do minor bicycle maintenance and repair so minor maintenance like a derailleur adjustment isn't really a big deal to me. I'm always willing to take my bike in for maintenance periodically. I have a good LBS within riding distance of my house.

                I usually do most of it myself (up to and including replacing the frame). The LBS did offer me the work for replacing the crankset as part of the cost and I took it in. Glad I did: the pedals had seized into the cranks and they couldn't remove them,

                • .. you're talking about just the normal thing when the chain falls off the sprockets here? As in exactly the same process to put it back after replacing an inner tube??

                  Yes, that's what I'm talking about. There are many people who ride bicycles who can't do this. You do have to open the rear derailleur in order to have enough chain to get the chain back on the sprockets and I can see somebody who is not confident being scared to do that. There are many riders who can't change a tire. The local bicycle group requires everyone to have a spare tube with them, but we know that if somebody has a flat, the ride leader is going to have to change it for them.

                  Yes, when I dec

                  • Yes, that's what I'm talking about.

                    Honestly: mind blown!

                    There are many people who ride bicycles who can't do this. You do have to open the rear derailleur in order to have enough chain to get the chain back on the sprockets and I can see somebody who is not confident being scared to do that.

                    I mean, sure, casuals. But if you're going for looong bike rides, that's just an amazing recipe for a very long walk home!! I mean my dad showed me how before I was even a teenager. It's something quite literally that

                    • Don't the ride leaders get vexed about people being really useless?

                      No. At least not in the group to which I am referring. One of the goals is cyclist development. There are at least a dozen rides a weak and many of them are D rides or "slow" rides. If you're in an A or B ride and something goes wrong that you can't handle, you're on your own. But at C or lower, nobody gets dropped and nobody gets left behind. You're not going to get anybody excited about cycling and being part of a faster group by leaving them on the edge of a road fifteen miles from the start with a

                    • Huh!

                      I mean OK, if you're doing beginner's rides, it makes sense. Though arguably more in a teach-a-man-to-fish way. But I am genuinely surprised by this:

                      There are many serious riders who can't handle things. At every road race/triathlon I've seen there are non-aligned race support bicycle mechanics there to help people because so many riders cant even do basic maintenance.

                      I mean I kind of wonder how these people cope when they get back home! It's a massive time suck (and fairly expensive!) to take a bike t

  • don't shift themselves!

The world will end in 5 minutes. Please log out.

Working...