'Demoralized' Amazon Workers Demand Data, Not Anecdotes, Supporting Return-to-Office Policy (seattletimes.com) 153
Amazon held an all-hands meeting where Adam Selipsky, head of Amazon's cloud computing business, "wouldn't give employees any data to back up the decision to require workers to come back to the office," reports the Seattle Times.
"But he did have some stories to share, according to an Amazon Web Services employee who attended the all-hands meeting," with one anecdote highlighting "the serendipity" that can happen with a return to the office. For some Amazon employees, "serendipity" isn't enough. Workers who have asked the company to share data have been provided anecdotes and a consistent trope that innovation is more likely to happen in person. That has left some workers feeling demoralized, distracted and undervalued as they struggle to stay focused and motivated, according to interviews and internal communications shared with The Times. An Amazon manager, who is based on the East Coast and asked to speak anonymously to protect their job, said it is "dehumanizing," and feels as if leadership doesn't trust its employees to understand their reasoning. In Slack messages, employees anonymously posted that Amazon's decisions were "dystopian" and creating "just a horrible situation...."
The company declined requests from The Times to share any data points that factored into its decision to change the remote work policy. Amazon workers have been asking the company for more information since it announced the change in February. The mandate went into effect in May... Mike Hopkins, senior vice president at Prime Video and Amazon Studios, told employees at another all-hands meeting that the return to office is working, according to a copy of his remarks Amazon shared with The Times. "I don't have data to back it up, but I know it's better...." The East Coast-based manager said they've been less productive since returning to the office. Without any cubicles or assigned workspaces, there is no privacy, they said. Anyone can overhear your phone call or peek at your monitor...
Amazon contends the return has gone well, both for workers and the communities where it operates. In Seattle, Amazon's return to its South Lake Union campus has led to an 82% increase in foot traffic between May and July and an 86% increase in credit card transactions at restaurants in the neighborhood, according to data shared from Amazon.
"Some employees welcomed the return to office mandate, and told The Times they were looking forward to seeing co-workers in person, solidifying a distinction between work and home, and drumming up business for the shops and restaurants around Amazon's campus."
"But he did have some stories to share, according to an Amazon Web Services employee who attended the all-hands meeting," with one anecdote highlighting "the serendipity" that can happen with a return to the office. For some Amazon employees, "serendipity" isn't enough. Workers who have asked the company to share data have been provided anecdotes and a consistent trope that innovation is more likely to happen in person. That has left some workers feeling demoralized, distracted and undervalued as they struggle to stay focused and motivated, according to interviews and internal communications shared with The Times. An Amazon manager, who is based on the East Coast and asked to speak anonymously to protect their job, said it is "dehumanizing," and feels as if leadership doesn't trust its employees to understand their reasoning. In Slack messages, employees anonymously posted that Amazon's decisions were "dystopian" and creating "just a horrible situation...."
The company declined requests from The Times to share any data points that factored into its decision to change the remote work policy. Amazon workers have been asking the company for more information since it announced the change in February. The mandate went into effect in May... Mike Hopkins, senior vice president at Prime Video and Amazon Studios, told employees at another all-hands meeting that the return to office is working, according to a copy of his remarks Amazon shared with The Times. "I don't have data to back it up, but I know it's better...." The East Coast-based manager said they've been less productive since returning to the office. Without any cubicles or assigned workspaces, there is no privacy, they said. Anyone can overhear your phone call or peek at your monitor...
Amazon contends the return has gone well, both for workers and the communities where it operates. In Seattle, Amazon's return to its South Lake Union campus has led to an 82% increase in foot traffic between May and July and an 86% increase in credit card transactions at restaurants in the neighborhood, according to data shared from Amazon.
"Some employees welcomed the return to office mandate, and told The Times they were looking forward to seeing co-workers in person, solidifying a distinction between work and home, and drumming up business for the shops and restaurants around Amazon's campus."
Well (Score:4, Insightful)
"an 86% increase in credit card transactions at restaurants in the neighborhood"
The amazon workers should cut back on expensive lunches at those restaurants to save money to pay for their transport costs associated with the return to office.
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"an 86% increase in credit card transactions at restaurants in the neighborhood"
The amazon workers should cut back on expensive lunches at those restaurants to save money to pay for their transport costs associated with the return to office.
Transport costs are already built into their salaries.
That said, bringing their own lunch would substantially cut down on their expenses. I do it every day. Costs me about $2/day to bring my own rather go to a restaurant. Also allows me more time for my lunch and to do what I want rather than walking to a restaurant, waiting for the order, then walking all the way back.
Re:Well (Score:5)
Transport costs are built into the salaries? C'mon. Nobody cares about your transport costs. Nobody cares about your living costs. They'll pay you as little as they get away with, that's all.
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Transport costs are already built into their salaries.
No they aren't. No one's salary varies with the type of car they drive, the current fuel price, or how far they live from the office.
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I also fail to see why the hell I should give a fuck about that if I worked at Amazon.
If I worked at one of the restaurants, ok, I can see the reason, but why would anyone working at Amazon give a rat's behind about whether CC transactions at restaurants are up, down or spinning all around?
Re: Well (Score:2)
Why do Amazon workers have to deny local businesses their patronage? You're trying to punish local restaurants for Amazon's decision.
Better they should forgo Amazon cafeteria meals and eat at local restaurants.
Re: Well (Score:5, Insightful)
Or, alternativelyâ¦
Working in an office was not started because it is a better way of doing things. It isn't. It was started purely out of necessity, to allow people to communicate in a world that evolved before high speed communications systems. That's no longer the case.
Thereâ(TM)s no reason to waste fuel, waste time, and waste resources travelling back and forth now, so grow up and stop forcing people to behave in fundamentally inefficient ways.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: Well (Score:4, Insightful)
Right - and the stage in between is called bargaining. Thatâ(TM)s what Amazonâ(TM)s workers are doing. Dangling the possibility of them not collecting that particular paycheque in order to get better conditions.
Re: Well (Score:3)
I bet the workers need the paycheck a whole lot more than Amazon needs those specific workers.
We'll see who wins this staring contest.
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Right - and the stage in between is called bargaining. Thatâ(TM)s what Amazonâ(TM)s workers are doing. Dangling the possibility of them not collecting that particular paycheque in order to get better conditions.
Yeah, that's quite the negotiating tactic.
Workers: "Either you let me continue to work from home, or you fire me. Ha! Take THAT, Amazon!"
Amazon: "OK. You win. You're fired."
Re: Well (Score:4, Interesting)
> ThereÃ(TM)s no reason to waste fuel, waste time, and waste resources travelling back and forth now, so grow up and stop forcing people to behave in fundamentally inefficient ways.
You people still thinking this is about communication and collaboration are so funny. Wake up. This is about the downtown chamber of commerce seeing a dead downtown. They want to revitalize it for their members, meaning bringing in foot traffic, meaning bringing back all the office workers that was that foot traffic.
So there is no data showing you you'll work better. But if your employer told you "Look, you're coming back because businesses around the office need your money in their cash registers" would likely make you more upset than the vague "it's about collaboration" answer.
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Amazon was practicing proximity bias even in the 1990s.
And they are so employee-hostile in general that RTO is a drop in the bucket.
Re: Well (Score:5, Insightful)
Is it just me, or are almost all the 'I want to go back to the office' posts all from management or anon's?
Re: Well (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Doubtful. Management can remote manage almost as easily as they can in person.
And since half of slashdot doesn't think managers do anything anyways, you'd think they'd love the work from home even more.
Re: Well (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
Shils, who either rely on in-person intimidation, or need to justify an expensive penile HQ building complete with testicles.
Bezos has a pattern:
* Phallic builiding
* Phallic second-tier space project
* Phallic corporate logo
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That's certainly part of it, but also, may tech companies receive tax breaks from their municipalities for their presence. Most of the municipalities have threatened to withdraw these tax breaks unless they forced their workers back into the cities. Companies may have tolerated the remote work, but not at the cost of those sweet, sweet tax breaks.
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You want to get paid, do what your company tells you or go work somewhere that will be out of business next year with the other retarded excuses
You want to get paid, move to a company that want's more work and less chit-chat and dictatorship. You'll own the existing company next year
Fixed it for you
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I'm actively trying to get back into the office a couple days a week, and I have a 1 hour drive each way. Meeting with people in person is far better than by a video chat. There's emotion involved that you don't pick up on as easily. Those of us who hold meetings in person and via video chat often pick up on the comfort and familiarity.
Just because you have no friends outside of work doesn't mean you have to take it out on the rest of us.
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I'm actively trying to get back into the office a couple days a week, and I have a 1 hour drive each way. Meeting with people in person is far better than by a video chat. There's emotion involved that you don't pick up on as easily. Those of us who hold meetings in person and via video chat often pick up on the comfort and familiarity.
Translation: I'm a manager with no real skillsets other than my self-imagined magical mind-reading powers. I'm desperate to get back into the office before they realize what a fraud I am.
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
Funny that you say "it was started purely out of necessity". Because that's what offices were: A necessity. The only way you could actually get a lot of people to collaborate.
You know how people worked before the industrial revolution, before there was a need to herd people into a single building so they could cooperate meaningfully? People worked at home. Because it was pretty easy to produce stuff on your own and there wasn't really any good reason to do this anywhere but where you already were anyway. That's how things worked until about the 1800s. Then collaboration became more and more important and with this, it was a necessary evil to get the people together because communication back then was mostly a matter of writing letters. Kinda inefficient, you will agree.
We solved that problem. And along with it, the necessity of offices.
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Who the hell modded you troll? It seems the moderation trolls are at work again. They were mostly gone before the reddit boycott.
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Judging from what the rest of my comments got modded to, I guess the PHB managers got some modpoints today.
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Things sort of have changed. We need meetings because we do stuff with multiple people, not just hammering on some project by one's lonesome. Those days are gone, and almost everything is a group project, be it an assembly line, a GitHub repository, or people working services.
Plus, it is more secure for a company to have stuff in-house, and not accessed via remote machines.
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
First, meetings are not dependent on people breathing the same air. We've proven that time and time again. We have the tools and means to coordinate groups that span across continents, and while I do agree that it's kinda taxing to have a meeting at 2am because that's the only time the rest of the globe could come and I'm the odd man out and has to bite the bullet for the team, it is possible. Twice so if everyone involved is in the same time zone and that part of the problem dissolves immediately.
Online meetings also have a ton of advantages, not the least of which being that, if you're interested to do that, they come with a built-in feature to have a record(ing) of the whole deal. Which also allows time shifting and getting those on board who couldn't make it to the meeting without having someone relay the content to them. You can share screens easily and even have multiple team members work together on the same shared platform, instead of going "click this, no that other thing, then do that with it...", they can simply do it themselves without playing musical chairs.
I can't even begin to stress how much these tools facilitated our meetings. By now, even if everyone is in the same room, we still have the meeting with the online tools running (and speakers off, of course) because they simply add a lot of comfort to our cooperative efforts.
And concerning security, erh... no. I'm in security. In one of the most paranoid companies I ever had the (dis)pleasure to work for. A running gag among us is that we want a rubber stamp reading "it's for security", because it's the fast-pass to get any expenses approved immediately. Since pretty much anything relevant is either on a cloud service or, if really one of those "must not get into wrong hands" stuff, in our data center, accessing that data remotely is pretty much a given anyway. Whether I'm in the office or at home, either way, the data is not going to come in from LAN. Securing the data in transit is a necessity either way, so what kind of security would you win by requiring people to sit in an office?
And accessing anything with non-approved tools is Verboten (note the capital V) anyway. Impossible, more likely, considering what's necessary to be considered "one of us". So yes, it's not only possible to secure remote access, it's pretty much mandatory in an environment where your data is somewhere far, far away anyway, no matter where you are.
Re:Well (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes things have changed. I have spent the entire day in meetings and working with other people. And I didn't need to be in the same room as the people to achieve that.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
You want data? Fine, here's your data: 4 years ago, nobody was working from home. Everyone was fine with that and nobody was complaining. Sure, working from home is nice. You don't have to get dressed and you can jerk off whenever you want. But that's not how you run a business. Working from home was not started because it is a better way of doing things. It isn't. It was started purely out of necessity, to keep people from getting sick. That's no longer the case. It's time to go back to acting like an adult. Show up for work on time, do your job and stop your childish complaining.
This word data, I don't think it means what you think it means.
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
Everybody was NOT fine with that. The disabled community has been demanding work from home capability for years and were told it was impossible and unreasonable. Then, suddenly, when non-disabled people needed to work from home, that ability materialized almost instantly. And now it's being taken away again to prop up commercial real estate prices.
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Oh, and by the way: I was not fine. Not at all. I was miserable. Then 2020 came and it was the best year of my life. The best. No contest. Hands down the absolutely, positively best year that ever happened to me.
So please don't project from yourself onto others. I am miserable when I have to share air with humans. They are not exactly something I enjoy anywhere within a 100 feet radius.
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you high?
I've been working from home since before the pandemic. Plenty of businesses run fine working from home.
Think we've spotted the Amazon manager right here.
Re: Well (Score:2)
Not an Amazon manager, but most likely some keyboard troll living in a retirement community out of touch with reality.
Re:Well (Score:4, Insightful)
It's time to go back to acting like an adult.
I was told adults are free to make decisions and act in autonomy. Yet you're equating adulthood with blindly following what someone else tells you to do without thought or reason. I don't think I even did that as a child, something my mother keeps reminding me of.
do your job
That's the issue here isn't it. Show that the jobs aren't getting done and you may have something meaningful to talk about. But if your idea of me working is merely to be present because you say so, with all due respect go fuck yourself.
Re: Well (Score:2)
Bullshit, dickhead! I and many others were working from home well before 2020. 2016, in fact.
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You want data? Fine, here's your data:
4 years ago, nobody was working from home. Everyone was fine with that and nobody was complaining.
I was working from home. For over a decade now, actually.
My company was fine with it. Am still working there. Still from home.
Covid hardly made any changes for me, in terms of work. Sure, it made lots of changes in term of other stuff.
So just cos you were not working from home or didn't know anyone who was, does not mean noone else was.
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Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm happy to return to office. I just have a few requests and a few things I need to make sure both my employer and I agree on.
Requests:
1. My team is currently in 5 different cities. Pick just one of them, make us all move there. I don't think it helps anyone for me to be in the Austin office and be on a zoom with the NY office all day. If my whole team isn't in the same office, we are just working remotely with more steps.
2. I want my leadership in the same office. You claim work happens best in person, manage in person.
3. Drop business casual. You were fine with me in a tshirt/hoodie, I've lost weight during this time because I had more free time to keep healthy. No reason to spend money on clothes you only wear to work.
4. 30 minute lead way on start times. Traffic is random and takes anywhere from 20 minutes to a hour to get there. I think it's fair to give me a 8 to 8:30 start time. In lieu of that, let's work 9-6.
5. At home I have a sit/stand desk. This keeps me healthy. I also have 2 38" 4k displays, this makes me more efficient. Please have those at my workstation if you want to keep the same productivity. Otherwise I'll be taking scheduled breaks for walks. I'm guessing 5 minute breaks every 20 minutes of programming and at least 2 additional 15 minute walks.
6. You can stop paying for my internet. I won't be doing work at home. Like at all.
Things we need to agree on:
1. First you acknowledge that I will no longer work when sick. Today when sick I still work because I'm not putting anyone at risk in my home office. So know that while I've taken no sick days in the last few years. I probably will start.
2. I'm going to be taking a lot more time off for personal things I can get done when working from home. Water heater dies? Sorry boss personal day. If I worked at home I could just let the guy in and get back to work in 15 minutes.
3. Unless you are building me a personal office. I'm going to wear noise canceling headphones all day. I can't be expected to think and write code in a loud room of 25-30 people all having random un-work related conversations.
4. No more after hours work. Sure I'll take my on-call shift. But you know how when I was at home and stuck on an issue. I'd work it for hours after 5 because I could get a nice dinner with my wife and get back on it? Sorry I now have a 20 minute to an hour drive home. I'm not working once I get there.
5. Get better coffee. I need it to function as a human, if you won't I'll make it myself, but that takes 20 minutes at my desk.
6. I'm going to work less. It's not a punishment, it's a fact of 15 people asking me about my weekend, or bullshitting in the hallway by the bathroom. I'd say a few hours of the day will be eaten up by this. It's fine, before work from home I only did about 2-3 hours of work anyways, the rest was talking at the desk.
7. Projects are going to be slower. In person meetings have more bullshit and unlike zoom, I can't just put the code in front of the zoom, listen for my name and keep working. So I have 3-4 hours of meetings a week, I'm going to guess that turns into 6-8. Adjust our delivery schedule.
8. Due to the scheduling change, I'll now need to get up two hours earlier to workout, eat, shower, and have time to drive in. I'll do my best to not let that effect my moral and performance, but I'm going to be honest here, I wasn't working as hard before covid. I work hard at home because I wanted to show you how well it works. I'll go back to the old days, it was easier for me anyways.
9. My relationship with my family was strained due to all the time away. It's better now that I work from home. I'll probably need to use all my vacation time annually to ensure it stays that way. I used to feel guilty taking that vacation time, but I learned during covid that work life balance and family are important. I didn't take much vacation during this work from home time because I was with my family. Now I'll be taken away again. So you give me 4 weeks. Expect me to take it. I won't be reachable either. If you call me, it's not a vacation day.
Other than that, I'll be there monday morning.
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Nor will you be missed. Your replacement is a robot.
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If companies did this, they would get a lot better workforce for a fraction of the cost.
Or would they get the absolute dreggs that can't get a job anywhere else and then complain that their workers are shit and go under?
Re: Well (Score:3)
Exactly, remember the Golden Rule? He who has the gold makes the rules!
Real Estate and Taxes (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Real Estate and Taxes (Score:5, Funny)
You have to admit, it is kinda hard to explain this in ways that doesn't make the average worker say "why the fuck should I care?"
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Not if they own the building / campus and have enough people who legitimately need to be in the office that getting rid of it would be a significant problem.
Re:And so what if it is? (Score:4, Insightful)
It really doen't matter what it's about. People are being paid to go to work, they should go to work.
No, they are paid to do a job. If they can do it at home, and are doing it at home, they are doing their work.
"Back to" work implies WFH is not "work," IMO, which is patently bullshit.
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You seem to be implying that people working from home aren't working. Data doesn't support that. Rather the opposite actually.
Amazon doesn't need to justify why they want workers in the office, but those workers absolutely have the right to ask them to, and if they don't like the answer, quit.
Re: (Score:2)
You seem to buy into the protestant work ethic as a full on religion. Complete with weird myths you think are some kind of justification.
Re: And so what if it is? (Score:2)
Your anecdotal experience of having zero discipline is meaningless. Many of us were working from home before the pandemic, and we were getting out of bed, and actually being productive.
Just because you struggled with getting out of bed just to feed yourself doesnâ(TM)t mean shit when there are tens of thousands of us waking up at 6am and sliding into our home offices every day working remotely.
Maybe itâ(TM)s you that needs to be in an office.
Not all homes/offices/jobs are the same (Score:5, Insightful)
Almost every time the "return to office" topic comes up, these big differences seem to be left out of consideration.
Re:Not all homes/offices/jobs are the same (Score:4, Insightful)
I very much miss differentiation in discussions on this topic. Some jobs require a lot of "thought/desk work alone", and some require a lot of interaction with colleagues or physical interaction with equipment not available in homes. Some homes are suitable as a working place, and some are crowded, loud, conflicted, and terrible as working places. Some offices are great places to work at, and some are dystopian "open floor plans" that resemble public train stations more than work environments. Almost every time the "return to office" topic comes up, these big differences seem to be left out of consideration.
You are right. Many of the people here who never want to work in an office again are programmers, a field that not only can accomodate 100 percent remote work, but my experience with programmers is that to a large extent, they have a different mental process that creates an introverted, and sometimes even a schizoid personality. Note that isn't any insult - schizoid personality types are those who simply have no desire for human relationships, and very often function at a high competence level. They just like to be alone. Schizoid is not a flaw or even a personality disorder in my book, just a person with an almost magical power, who just wants to be left alone to work their magic.
So yes - those folks should look for professions where they don't need to be around others. If I ran a company employing programmers, and their work entailed taking instructions, and producing code they'd all work from home. Then if someon wanted to com in, and were interested in a management path, we'd talk about it.
But the issue is that the majority of work out there requires in person work. And it seems that many in here don't even take that into consideration.
If you make/manufacture things, you'll most likely need to have a workplace presence.
If you work on/with sensitive documents, you'll need to have a workplace presence
If you need to entertain people in social settings as part of work, you'll need to have workplace presence.
There are other jobs that require a human at a desk or station.
My own work at present is a hybrid. Half is performed at home, and the other half in person. The first half is mainly for convenience, the in presence part is very much needed to be in person.
It also requires a person that is not an introvert, and is good at handling stressed people as well as having honed technical skills.
Just one example, but I believe the hybrid work gives me a bit of insight into the differing jobs and personalities we find.
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It can be either a personality trait or a personality disorder, depending on whether it is so heavily pronounced that impairs life or not.
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It can be either a personality trait or a personality disorder, depending on whether it is so heavily pronounced that impairs life or not.
That is true. Most schizoids are happy with their outlook - although some can be co-morbid with avoidant personality disorder. At that point, it can deeply affect the person, who wants normal relationships, but the disorder keeps them from that state.
Ant then there is the "secret schizoid" the person that can fake it. Often seemingly very gregarious, but when put in a situation where others form relationships, they fail or even recoil.
Schizoids not co-morbid are fine - if it is co-morbid with avoidant
Re: Not all homes/offices/jobs are the same (Score:2)
Schizoid? Your experience with programmers are that they are schizoid? Meaning what exactly?
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I see the physical equipment you cannot have at home, because yes, it's kinda hard to convince my employer to put up an ATM for me to pentest in my basement.
Than again... ok, no.
But interaction with colleagues works virtually just as well as physically. I frankly can't think of anything (that I would want to do with a coworker, mind you) that requires physical interaction.
And, bluntly, the chance that your home office is more suitable to get anything meaningful done is higher than the chance that you're wor
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Yes, there are people who cannot work from home. Are you seriously thinking that people don't know that?
The question is why those that can should be stuffed into an office.
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Re: Not all homes/offices/jobs are the same (Score:2)
I'm fine in my home office. If the downtown office is better for you, good for you. If you want to talk about the nuances of the home/work office debate, talk to the other guys that want us all back, not the straw man that wants us all home.
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Re:Not all homes/offices/jobs are the same (Score:4, Insightful)
And that's why people and managers often want the numbers. I mean, our CEO just said "Everyone return to office" and our engineering manager started asking questions.
Questions like what metrics are going to be used to judge how well this effort is working? I mean, business needs to get done, and collaboration is required at times, but is forcing it rather than letting people decide for themselves the best move?
And he's wanting the numbers to decide if the edict is the right move - people are coming into the office as required seems to work just fine for everyone right now. Does forcing the issue help or hurt?
I mean, it's a reasonable question to ask - if we're hitting all the metric now, and people are consistently complaining about the plan, why change it? At least ensure there is a system in place to collect and measure data and analyze the results.
After all, productivity often does plummet, and the gains from "spontaneous interaction" might not be worth the cost.
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I very much miss differentiation in discussions on this topic.
Errr why do you miss it? Do you not read Slashdot, just TFS and then jump in an post?
Almost every time the "return to office" topic comes up, these big differences seem to be left out of consideration.
They objectively aren't. In fact we've never had a discussion on Slashdot about work from home vs the office which hasn't addressed the differences in types of roles, heck we even talk about differences in personalities too.
Do you even read Slashdot at all, or are you just here to talk nonsense?
Collaboration (Score:3)
I definitely have had some good ideas happen through collaboration and brainstorming. We did it over the phone, the office had nothing to do with it.
Re: Collaboration (Score:4)
If my employer successfully got us back in the office we'd still be using our WFH tools to a.) not leave our desk as often, screensharing is more productive than hovering and doesn't cost shoe leather. And b.) regain productivity lost to meetings.
I agree with wanting hard data to back that up If they want me to start spending $200 a month on gasoline again.
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If my employer successfully got us back in the office we'd still be using our WFH tools to a.) not leave our desk as often, screensharing is more productive than hovering and doesn't cost shoe leather. And b.) regain productivity lost to meetings.
I agree with wanting hard data to back that up If they want me to start spending $200 a month on gasoline again.
When you say "we" are you talking about every employee in the company working from home?
Re: Collaboration (Score:2)
Yes, but a touch less strict than every single employee, period, without exception.
Re: Collaboration (Score:2)
My productivity is fine, that has not only been proven but also consistently established. So if they say I need to reintroduce that burden solely at my expense they very much should be ready to answer that question.
Oh and side note... If we're going in the 'survival of the fittest' direction of the conversation then why isn't the same standard held to employers? A business going under means money stoppages. An employee out of work for long enough (or even just simply not going making enough) becomes a
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Yes. Today's remote collaboration tools are a generation ahead of where they were a few years ago. Teams, Slack, Skype, and other similar tools make it much easier to stay in touch with coworkers. I find I often literally forget I'm not in the office on many days, though my office is in a spare bedroom.
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I definitely have had some good ideas happen through collaboration and brainstorming. We did it over the phone, the office had nothing to do with it.
There's a lot that goes on in offices that require physical presence, and physical work. Slashdotters seem to think this isn't the case because a great many of them are programmers, and so all they need is their computer and an internet connection. And let's face it. A lot of them are Autistic-Asperger-ish, and can't stand to be around other people anyway. But most offices have a whole host of activities that are hands on and require physical work and cooperation with other people, in the flesh.
Extroverts (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Not only that, but introverts also don't tend to be as loud as extroverts. They don't complain about a situation.
They just leave.
Mentorship (Score:3)
In my 33 years I have had a large number of mentees - some through formal programs, some informal. I have helped launch and grow the careers of people many times. I love bringing new folks into my sphere, and I have frequently stuck my neck out and pressed for opportunities for them, putting my reputation on the line in the process. I have lost count of the letters of recommendation and the reference checks.
Since the pandemic - and now for the foreseeable future - I work remotely. And in that time, I have not worked to further the prospects of anybody. Why? Because I do not know them well enough to do so. And I will not vouch for somebody under those circumstances. The very most I will put on paper is, "They performed their duties adequately."
There's a real social cost to remote work. I doubt I'm alone.
Re: (Score:2)
Also in social personal meetings I can get a better idea of someone's career goals. May learn about some skill / knowledge they have that doesn't matter fo
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I mentored multiple people while working full time remote over the Covid period. Two of them were recent college grads that hired on with us. Their growth was phenomenal and they have become fantastic contributors. Not bad for someone 2-3 years into their careers. My wife who worked at a another company was famous for mentoring others. They have been remote for over 11 years. We both recently retired so alas our professional mentoring has come to an end for these companies. We have found other oppor
Re: (Score:2)
Since the pandemic - and now for the foreseeable future - I work remotely. And in that time, I have not worked to further the prospects of anybody. Why? Because I do not know them well enough to do so.
So what I'm understanding is that you seem to be unable to understand people if they aren't 3D? Maybe Apple's Vision Pro future will fix that. I don't understand why you can't get to know someone in 2D. I both regularly mentor and get mentored, and have a problem doing neither from home. Actually I'm flying to see my mentor in 2 weeks, not really, I'm flying for other reasons but will be sitting down and meeting with them while I'm there.
Maybe work for home just isn't for *you*, rather than a problem with t
Re: (Score:2)
If you choose to reduce my complaint to a caricature, that's on you. I described my position with some care. Whatever the reason, when all of the dynamics are summed, I do not get the complete picture I need to go to bat for somebody professionally.
I don't exclude anybody or hamper their efforts. I just don't grease the wheels for them.
Re: (Score:2)
Why would workers expect data? (Score:2)
If workers had the leverage to expect an employer to hand over data to justify management decisions for remote work, they could also use that leverage to demand data over raises and compensation, not to mention also demanding more compensation. There's a reason why most employers don't hand over data for compensation, and that's because workers generally don't have that leverage.
It seems delusional to me for Amazon workers who have seen recent layoffs to demand justification for remote work edicts. If it
Amazon principles (Score:2)
From their own principles:
âoe Dive Deep
Leaders operate at all levels, stay connected to the details, audit frequently, and are skeptical when metrics and anecdote differ. No task is beneath them.â
When I worked there I knew it was bullshit and they keep proving it.
Sure (Score:2)
Tech and office workers need to unionize, but it's hard to do because so many of them are here on work visas. It's hard to join a union already, it's impossible if you're a temp worker.
It's a reasonable question (Score:2)
Amazon certainly claims to be a data-driven company, and in so many areas they obviously are.
Why shouldn't they use actual data for this question? Is in-office magical goodness so very magical that it doesn't need data?
and yet no problem replacing you with someone half (Score:2)
Don't forget they will have no problem replacing you with someone who works half way around the world.
WFH has caused massive drop in real estate values (Score:2)
"Working from home has caused commercial office occupancy rates to plummet and commercial property prices to fall in crowded zip codes. Falling property values in cities are likely driven by richer, more skilled residents leaving high-value properties. That will cause a drop in property taxes and strain city budgets." https://www.forbes.com/sites/a... [forbes.com]
Bullies and neckbreathers (Score:3)
I do notice that the "reasons" aren't reasonable at all, they're all emotional in nature or odd, like something else is a stake, like money or ego. Some here whether manager or not, are truly wistful in their posts, sad they can't influence and "help" others. Yes, scare-quotes, I'm scared of your help--your neediness is creepy--I would never put myself in position of submission to one that needs that much validation. Not naming names, but some are up-modded regularly. Thanks no.
Re:Here's an answer from management: (Score:5, Informative)
Because we're in a seller's market. You say "because I say so" and the reply you get is "2 weeks, fuck you".
You might have noticed, boomers are retiring and the GenZ replaying them are far lower in numbers. Every year now, about 20% more people retire than join the workforce. Every year. And that's not going to change for at least 15 more years. Take a look at your age pyramid and realize what this means. We're about to lose about 20% of total workforce by 2035. And while some may rejoice now and think that this means we eliminate unemployment, think again. Since the highest unemployment rates are among the unskilled, and it's not only Walmart greeters that retire but also top skilled workers, and since we are already facing an expert shortage, this will mean that whoever bends over to the whims of their workers will have them.
The rest will have to do with whatever the cat drags in.
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Well, since it's a seller's market, please do go ahead and put your foot down.
How did, "Hah! You have to take my slacking ass, because I'm the best that you're gonna get under these circumstances!" become a selling point?
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Ever since "The job is crap but you have to take it because the economy is in the shitter" was one.
If you want to play this game as enemies instead of partners, I can do that.
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Seller's market means nothing if there's no buyers. You can be the only seller for a certain very rare good, but if no one is buying it, you ain't selling it.
Every good job has a return to work policy now almost. So if you quit and think you'll land another 100% remote gig that pays as much, be prepared to be massively disappointed.
Re: (Score:2)
The thing is, in my line of work, people tend to be few and far between, and the demand is huge. Sure, everyone and their dog is now hitting colleges and universities to get a security related degree, but what companies need is someone with 10+ years professional experience. You don't get that in a college.
Also, it's not exactly BA. You can't just cram that shit into your head and pretend your way through it by rote learning. If you don't get it, and that in turn requires wanting to do it, you're just plain
Re:Metrics, shmetrics (Score:4, Insightful)
A product manager who does not concern themselves with metrics is incapable and unsuited for their job and should be fired immediately.
Many years ago I came across an article about metrics. The two writers gave examples of how some approach metrics. Measure something, anything, and get your numbers. That's how metrics work. The key is knowing what you want to measure and how to properly measure it.
An example they gave was how to measure the performance of helpdesk personnel. The manager wanted a way to determine the good from the bad and settled on the number of tickets someone completed. What the writers said was that an employee, knowing this was the metric, would let their friends know to call in every so often so they could pad their metrics. When the manager looked at the numbers, this employee would show better metrics than the person next to them.
The big problem with this measuring is the first person had a lot of small calls, something easy such as a password reset. Whereas the person next to them was getting the rougher calls, the ones which took 10-15 minutes to resolve, so their numbers were much lower. However, based on the metric, the second person was a worse performer and should be let go.
If all you want is metrics a product manager, any product manager, can give you metrics. But if you have no idea what to measure or, if you do, how to measure, your metrics are worthless. But the product manager gave you numbers, which is all that matters.
Re: (Score:2)
If all you want is metrics a product manager, any product manager, can give you metrics. But if you have no idea what to measure or, if you do, how to measure, your metrics are worthless. But the product manager gave you numbers, which is all that matters.
Either way, if a management chain is claiming that returning to the office is better, but they aren't willing to provide any metrics to support that claim at all, and they completely ignore a wealth of metrics that show a huge surge in productivity when everybody first started working from home and a huge drop in productivity coinciding with the return to working in the office, then we can safely call that entire management chain incompetent.
Re: (Score:3)
Playing hardball might not be in your interest [slashdot.org].
Re: (Score:2)
If someone creates code, care to explain why the location of his cadaver is relevant to the job?
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If it wasn't relevant they wouldn't want his cadaver in the office. The company believes that face to face interaction is important for trust between team members and morale.
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I can tell you from experience that my productivity, my trust in my team members and most of all my morale plummets if you force me to be stuck in an office with them. Because then they keep me from working, I can see what they are actually doing and that in general isn't exactly something that supports my faith in either them or the company.
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Ok, form your own company and run it according to your philosophy instead of forcing other companies to implement your business operating model. You don't get a job at McDonald's and then tell them you want to do your job dressed as a bunny rabbit because it'll be good for their business.
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That's why I don't get jobs at McD but at places where you have very few people with the relevant skill set and many companies wanting it. That way, you have a lot more leverage when it comes to negotiating the terms.
Re: (Score:3)
Found the burger flipper who is pissed that he can't work from home.
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Nobody really wants to return to downtown Seattle, since it's a third-world shithole due to the drug bums.