Federal Investigators Say They Used Encrypted Signal Messages To Charge Far-Right Militia Group Leader (cnbc.com) 294
JoeyRox shares a report from CNBC: Federal investigators claimed to access encrypted Signal messages used to help charge the leader of the Oath Keepers, an extremist far-right militia group, and other defendants in a seditious plot on Jan. 6, 2021. It's not clear how investigators gained access to the messages. One possibility is that another recipient with access to the messages handed them over to investigators. The complaint references group messages run on the app, so it's possible another participant in those chats cooperated.
Easy if they had a device from any participant... (Score:5, Informative)
Check out ~/.config/Signal/config.json. The key in there, that's the clear text key to the sqlcipher database that holds all user content... Always felt like signal was explicitly designed for forensic analysis.
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Well, it has to be somewhere. Unless you want to enter a password/pin every time you open the Signal program, it will be in plaintext.
Full device encryption is what you want.
I suppose there could be a kind of automagic per-program config encryption scheme (with overlay mounts), but based on what secret?
Re:Easy if they had a device from any participant. (Score:5, Interesting)
Especially if you have the device because its owner has agreed to cooperate in exchange for a plea deal or something, and can have them unlock it for you, there really isn't any technical measure you could expect to save you: even if some very clever and/or byzantine obfuscation mechanism forced you to use the signal UI rather than a more efficient forensic tool; for a case of any nontrivial value having the intern painstakingly scroll and screenshot their way through the entire chat history is a perfectly viable option.
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iOS and Android both have this. My password manager uses this to decrypt the password vault.
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Building upon the TPM/whatever idea: .This directory is unlocked by the OS based on a combination of deviceSecret + appSignature + optional_secret (biometrcis/password/token...).
The program could receive a directory, or multiple (not a path, but an FD) with which it can work (for config, logs etc...)
The linux kernel IMO provides enough features for this (namespaces mainly come to mind), but the setup needs to be meticulous.
This presents many usability challenges, the major being a per-app password. And the
Re:Easy if they had a device from any participant. (Score:4, Insightful)
That is a fundamental problem.
1. Password: You can either ask it each time, or you can keep things open for a while. That can go badly wrong though, depending on attacker model.
2. Biometrics: Only work if the attacker cannot access them. The attackers in the case at hand likely can.
3. External token: Pretty nice, but expensive, lot of effort and needs 1. or 2. itself for reasonable security.
In the end, you can only do risk-management and select something that works for you. Signal wants to have users, so they cannot go very high with the security level.
Re:Easy if they had a device from any participant. (Score:5, Insightful)
Signal is designed to keep your messages safe in transit which it does quite well. Device-side security was never the point. It does it's job well, you simply have expected something it was not designed for, similar to the banks that sent emails claiming a HTTPS connection symbol meant the website was legitimate.
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> Signal is designed to keep your messages safe in transit which it does quite well.
Its actually quite horrible at that. There is no way to view, double check, or directly share public keys. They are always delivered OTA and always with 100% trust and authority given the the centralized phone carriers. They even automatically accept key rollovers.
That means you have zero secure way to send encrypted messages using signal. For government or law enforcement, the messages are always clear text whenever they
Re:Easy if they had a device from any participant. (Score:4, Informative)
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What the hell are you talking about, man?
You can check the source code out yourself if you want to check what it's doing. Signal's documentation tells you what its content is.
https://signal.org/blog/safety... [signal.org]
You also don't want to be directly displaying all of the key material, because anyone with e.g. a camera can then clone your key.
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This is why it's bad that we only have one Signal client - we can't choose one that has some local protection as well.
Most phones have a secure enclave, many computers have a TPM. We should be using those things to enhance our security.
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I'm certain there is more than a single client. The protocol itself [wikipedia.org] is standardized and they even have a FOSS library [github.com] for it.
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Of course the whole drive is encrypted, so you'd have to give up something to the feds for them to crack it... in theory anyway.
Re: Easy if they had a device from any participant (Score:4, Interesting)
You can protect messaging and email. But it requires secure use of public-key crypto (e.g. via PGP/GnuPG) and most people find that way too much effort. It also requires using a secure device to run things on, for example a minimalist hardened Linux installation on a dedicated computer that is kept updated.
Doable, but a lot of effort and and requires access to expert knowledge. Usually not worth it.
The AC OPs comment about Signal is pretty damning though.
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Please, it's no more damning than any other program. Chrome/Chromium and Firefox both leave all your passwords easy to read in similar locations. Chrome is a simple sqlite3 database while Firefox is slightly obfuscated because there is the option of using a password... which almost nobody uses.
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Doesn't Chrome require a Windows login password to display passwords on the UI? Surely that means they encrypt the password database, right? Right?
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Hmm... seems since I've last checked they have added some encryption. However, as long as you are logged in as the user, it can be decrypted with ease: https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/... [nirsoft.net]
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Why would they when Windows can encrypt your whole disk, as long as you tell it to.
Re: Easy if they had a device from any participant (Score:4, Insightful)
You can protect messaging and email. But it requires secure use of public-key crypto (e.g. via PGP/GnuPG) and most people find that way too much effort. It also requires using a secure device to run things on, for example a minimalist hardened Linux installation on a dedicated computer that is kept updated.
Doable, but a lot of effort and and requires access to expert knowledge. Usually not worth it.
The AC OPs comment about Signal is pretty damning though.
What it really requires is ensuring no one gives up the information. All it takes is one person to decide it is in their best interests to share and all the security in the world won't help you. People are always the weakest links.
Re:Stewart Rhodes = Glowie. WHAT ABOUT RAY EPPS. (Score:5, Insightful)
Right wingers seem completely incapable of admitting they have been fostering and encouraging a pack of seditionist terrorists.
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Feel better now? I see you've been skipping your cognitive therapy sessions again.
Re: Stewart Rhodes = Glowie. WHAT ABOUT RAY EPPS. (Score:4, Funny)
You mean like the founding fathers?
Did they drink their own pee too?
Re:Stewart Rhodes = Glowie. WHAT ABOUT RAY EPPS. (Score:4, Interesting)
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There is literally video of him walking around, both with and without a megaphone telling people to invade the capitol. It's amazing how smooth brains are so keen to swallow the fake news media kool aid.
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I haven't been following the random conspiracy theories, but from what you said:
Are you assuming that Trump supporters are so incredibly gullible that if someone said "Hey, you should do this obviously illegal thing", the Trump supporters will do this thing? Do Trump supporters have no agency, no sense of self, and no ability to reason, and no reason to be held accountable for their actions? If I walk up to someone in a MAGA hat in a Walmart and say "you should shoplift", are you saying that if they shopl
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Look, it's clear that you have an incredibly low opinion of Trump supporters, but I'm more optimistic. Unlike you, I think that they can reason and that they can tell right from wrong.
Oh, they can. And the sisterfucking inbred KKK treason trash attempted a terrorist coup anyways, because what they are is a bunch of cross burning KKK sisterfucking shitheads whose grandparents SHOULD all have been executed for treason back in 1865.
The fact that we didn't wipe out these white supremacist trash 157 years a
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If the Democrats are so flaming liberal that they're not trustworthy
This statement confuses me. First, Biden is not "flaming liberal" in any useful definition of the term (aside from the current conservative mantra "not worshiping Trump == left of Karl Marx", sigh). I'm not sure we have any elected national officials who are "flaming liberal"; even Sanders and AOC kinda like the free market which means not a flaming liberal.
Second: not trustworthy? I mean, no politician is completely honest (well, no human is completely honest, and despite some possible counter-examples
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It's amazing how smooth brains are so keen to swallow the fake news media kool aid.
Speaking of "smooth brains"...
Trump and his enablers pour a LOT of their own Kool Aid and their followers drink... it... up...
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Signal did a perfect job of protecting the messages because it was designed to protect them in transit. Signal was not designed to make the messages irretrievable if they have access to the device.
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Signal is supposedly shit. Telegram is supposedly shit. What else is there?
Have you considered... not committing crimes?
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Spoken like a true Stalinist.
Simple (Score:2)
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The FBI was running one of their entrapment operations and were inside the group driving things so the fact that the channel was encrypted didn't matter.
Good old fashioned police work is always appreciated.
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It certainly worked in the Bundy Nat park incident. Oh wait, those charges were all dropped for those who didn't plea out except for trespassing because the fibbies not only refused to indicate how many LEOs were among the group but what their actions in the group had been. Meanwhile, if you actually read the charging documents the part of the 'sedition' law they are charged with is the delaying of the execution of a law. Not actual sedition. Which means this is entirely theater as such a charge has never a
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Meanwhile, if you actually read the charging documents the part of the 'sedition' law they are charged with is the delaying of the execution of a law. Not actual sedition.
That attempt to delay the execution of a law was part of a plan to change the outcome of a free and fair election, which is why it was a coup attempt. Intent matters. What's your intent in posting this BS?
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He's one of the same KKK terrorist shitbags who thinks any time one of their cross burning shithead groups gets observed committing crimes it's "entrapment."
Probably thinks that Ron Stallworth [ron-stallworth.com] was engaged in "entrapment" too.. it's just a pity David Duke and the rest of these treasonous terrorist KKK shits weren't rounded up and disposed of long ago, and were allowed to create a next generation in the lives of treasonous shitbags like Rhodes, Trump and the rest of the modern Repugnant Klan Party.
Remembe
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Don't call it a free and fair election: trump got caught cheating multiple times! ...and still lost!
Re:Simple (Score:5, Informative)
Don't call it a free and fair election: trump got caught cheating multiple times! ...and still lost!
sssh that was a trap. When they start ranting about how the election was stolen, then you start pasting links about how the majority of fraud was a) engaged in by republicans and b) discovered during republican-sponsored audits. Even the republicans know that the republicans tried to steal the election. Well, the officials do. The followers know fuck-all.
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The FBI was running one of their entrapment operations and were inside the group driving things so the fact that the channel was encrypted didn't matter.
Pretty likely. Also has the advantage that it can be explained to a jury and that you do not risk losing expensive toys.
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"Entrapment"? Do tell. Observing and recording the acts of terrorist KKK republican treason trash so they can be prosecuted for their crimes isn't "entrapment", it's proper investigatory work.
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Intent matters. If you think there isn't already a black market for those shorts of things, I guess you can keep pretending.
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The top officials in the FBI and DOJ were appointed by Trump. So your theory is Trump's appointees decided to stage this insurrection so he would what, lose the election that was held 3 months prior ?
What was the motive for Trump's appointees to 'fake' the events on Jan 6. How and why did they convince Trump and his closest allies to do everything they could to make it look like a predictable consequence of his rally ?
Is it just that Trump is the dumbest president ever or are you possibly grasping at str
Anyone who supported... (Score:2)
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Keeping Secrets (Score:5, Insightful)
This is why, despite the red-pill pushers out there, I tend to accept that the world is not, in fact, full of conspiracies. I take comfort in the simple fact that people - especially groups of people - are terrible at keeping secrets. Take the 2020 presidential election, for example. The number of people that would need to be involved to pull off a "steal", across many electoral precincts and levels of administration, is so vast that it could not possibly be kept a secret for long.
Maybe I am deluded, the Matrix has me, and there really are puppet masters controlling everything behind the scenes. They must be superhuman to cover their tracks so well. There's plenty of nefarious stuff happening in broad daylight without needing to fill my time chasing ghosts.
First rule of Sedition Club ... (Score:2)
The complaint references group messages run on the app, so it's possible another participant in those chats cooperated.
1. You don't talk about Sedition Club.
...
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Yeah lets all shed a tear for the terrorist who took a shit on our proudest tradition of 250+ years of of nonviolent transfers of power.
Re: Trumped up (Score:2)
What's sad is that you still think anyone will come along and pardon these criminals. That boat was planned and left port before taking any passengers.
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The guy sent text messages and didn't even enter the Capital...
Charles Manson didn't go to the scene when his followers went to commit murders and assaults on his orders either. Doesn't matter. The ringleader is as guilty as the followers under the law.
Re:Strangest "insurrection" ever (Score:4, Insightful)
"Insurrectionists" inflict no casualties.
irrelevant
"Insurrectionists" brandish no weapons.
False, but irrelevant anyway
Meanwhile, people who actually seize territory and declare an autonomous zone ... aren't insurrectionists?
Debatable. But we know the 6ers are.
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"Insurrectionists" inflict no casualties.
irrelevant
Not only irrelevant, but false as well. Just ask Officer Sicknick's family.
And before someone points out the Washington medical examiner ruled that he died of natural causes, the medical examiner added, however, that “all that transpired played a role in his condition.”
In addition, Rosanne Boyland appeared to have been crushed to death in a stampede of fellow rioters as they surged against the police.
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Not only irrelevant, but false as well. Just ask Officer Sicknick's family.
Yeah, the insurrectionists and their most athletic supporters are using the same logic there they use for covid. Those other things would have killed him in decades anyway, so surely covid can't be held responsible for killing him right now! fucknuts.
In addition, Rosanne Boyland appeared to have been crushed to death in a stampede of fellow rioters as they surged against the police.
Yeah, but it doesn't count when they kill their own accidentally. In fact team kills subtract from your score
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Lol. The desperation is strong.
The medical examiner said that if any acts hastened the death, it would not have been labeled as natural causes. Sicknick died of natural causes.
As for Boyland, I heard it was a beat down from the coos. I've also heard she was trampled. Thr videos that I saw simply isn't clear enough fir me or any honest person I know ti determine one way or another. There might be videos I have not seen too.
Either way, I think it is a bit disingenuous to claim Boyland as a casualty in this
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If she was trampled, it certainly was not in furtherance of any insurrection.
It wasn't in furtherance of it, but only because of failure. It was in pursuit of it, which is what's actually relevant.
If it was a beating by cops, you might as well claim it was suicide.
Absolutely not, at least not if you can call it a "beating". Once a suspect has been subdued, necessary force ends. But as far as I know she was trampled by fellow insurrectionists.
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Maybe lethargic geriatrics shouldn't be police officers. They're paid to do a job, and if they can't do it, get out.
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Huh! "Attempted murder" Now honesty what is that? Do they give a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry? Do they? [frinkiac.com]
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"Insurrectionists" inflict no casualties. "Insurrectionists" brandish no weapons.
So at best, you want to call it a violent but potentially non-lethal attempt to harm and potentially overturn the government of the United States?
A strange claim to make..
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I agree that no casualties were inflicted, and I hope this standard is used in the future. It will save the taxpayer huge sums of money. Most police deaths have nothing to do with job.
The policeman who died as a result of the insurrection (who would not have died when he did otherwise) was a casualty of the attack.
The no weapon defense is the fantasy of the good criminal.
It's also a lie here since weapons were literally used to attack people. Anything which functions as a weapon is considered a weapon. And if there's a good chance you will kill someone with it, it's considered a deadly weapon. It does not at all matter whether it was intended as a weapon when produced.
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>"The policeman who died as a result of the insurrection (who would not have died when he did otherwise) was a casualty of the attack."
Nobody died as a direct result of the riot except one rioter- Babbitt. One officer died of natural causes days later. Two died from suicide, half a YEAR later.
>"It's also a lie here since weapons were literally used to attack people. Anything which functions as a weapon is considered a weapon."
That is absolutely true. Of course, most people think "armed with a firea
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As far as weapons, this information likely came from Mark Grods, who admitted to not only brandishing a weapon, but transporting and distributing firearms. These are the negotiated charges the feds use to get him to roll over on his friends. So he likely actually did much more and there is likely evidence to pit him away
How we just need some thug [politico.com] with a proper attitude on people who get caught to deal with him according to the law of the streets.
The no weapon defense is the fantasy of the good criminal. The bank robber who scares innocent people, but thinks he is noble because the gun is unloaded. This is typical of the Sovereign Citizen who believe they did not harm because the lawsuits they filed were valid. Never mind that the kids who houses they tried to take away had to live with the fact that some stranger wanted to make them homeless. And the dozens of cops they murdered deserved it because Sovereign Citizens do not have to follow the laws of the and therefore the traffic stops were illegal and the shooting was self defense.
I think they live in a fantasy land where only the Big Guy in the Sky can judge them. "Rights" that come from "God" are kind of dangerous, because one can assert the "right" to anything, and assert that it's valid because they weren't immediately struck by lightning when they did it therefore God says it's OK. Basically the Diving Right of Kings, practiced by folks who pretend to
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Also the "Divine" right of Kings, although the British Crown's ownership of all the dolphins probably encompasses diving.
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>>> "Insurrectionists" inflict no casualties. They killed and brutalized police in the Capitol building.
Bullshit !
Check your facts !
One (a single) police death has been repeated *linked* to the supposed "insurrection", and yet his cause of death was a Stroke followed by a blood clot (or something similar). He was attacked with Pepper Spray. It may very well be that the Pepper Spray was the ultimate cause of death. But, thousands of people are Pepper Sprayed and we don't hear about them dying fr
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>They killed and brutalized police in the Capitol building.
Wow, you are seriously misinformed. But based on your other comments, that is apparent. The only one killed in the incident was an unarmed, non-physically threatening female rioter, by a capitol police officer with a seriously questionable record.
>"Insurrectionists" brandish no weapons. You're a shitty liar. Go fuck yourself, KlanscadingTreasonShit."
So eloquent. Don't let the facts interfere with your narrative. Not a single firearm was fo
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Funny that none of this "brutalization" was caught on video... in the most videoed building in the world... meanwhile BLM rioters were firebombing federal court houses whilst being praised by Biden and Harris, and conspicuously ignored by the FBI. But an unguided tour of the capitol? Oh how terrible.
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Re:Strangest "insurrection" ever (Score:4, Informative)
Brian Sicknick.
Howard Liebengood.
Jeffrey Smith.
Kyle DeFreytag.
Gunther Hashida.
More than 150 officers were assaulted and injured by your KKK terrorist shitbag friends [thehill.com], KlanscadingTreasonShit. So why don't you kindly go shove your burning cross right up your lying treasonous fucking KKK ass.
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George Floyd assaulted a cop, but that was A-OK because he was black.
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Biden literally eulogised a KKK grand wizard, you support him.
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>Brian Sicknick.
Died of natural causes days later. https://www.nbcnews.com/politi... [nbcnews.com]
> Howard Liebengood.
Uninjured. Heart attack, 7 days later, at home, at age 62.
> Jeffrey Smith.
Still alive. Resigned his position
> Kyle DeFreytag.
Suicide, 7 MONTHS later.
> Gunther Hashida
Suicide, 7 MONTHS later.
Don't let the facts interfere with your narrative...
What the rioters did was wrong and they were charged (so far) appropriately.
Re:Strangest "insurrection" ever (Score:4, Interesting)
Doublethink is an interesting accusation.
Directly after the "activity" under discussion, 4 people are so affected by this event that taking their lives seems a good idea. 1 is so affected that he has a stroke.
I will allow that it is possible that the stroke might have happened anyway, but I also allow that it is likely that the stress of the "activity" was causative.
Many capitol police were assaulted as part of the "activity".
One person was shot while partaking in the "activity".
But you want to claim it was a non-event. I doubt you really believe that.
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Derek Chauvin only "killed a single one too", so I guess that's ok.... well... actually he didn't kill anyone, Floyd ODed on fentanyl, but that's another story.
Re:Far-right (Score:5, Insightful)
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Attempted Kidnapping might have been a possibility, as I understand it. Many of them had zip-tie and other restraints openly on their belts, and were very much equipped for hostage (though I suspect they'd call it prisoner)-taking.
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Attempted Kidnapping might have been a possibility, as I understand it.
They had erected a gallows and were chanting hang mike pence. Not kidnap mike pence, not get mike pence, hang mike pence. So while we have reason to believe they were planning to kidnap people (although they might have just been planning to take them hostage on site...) we know they were planning to kill someone, in their own words.
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Free speech bitch.
Credible threats are not protected by the right to free speech, both because threats alone do harm and because they are a plausible prelude to violence. Bitch.
Re:Far-right (Score:4, Insightful)
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They had erected a gallows and were chanting hang mike pence. Not kidnap mike pence, not get mike pence, hang mike pence. So while we have reason to believe they were planning to kidnap people (although they might have just been planning to take them hostage on site...) we know they were planning to kill someone, in their own words.
And the man they wanted to hang wasn't "the enemy", he was a man who was doing his duty to carry out the law whether or not he agrees with the outcome, and whether or not the sentiment of the crowd is on his side. A man who probably could have, at any time, deployed any of a variety of tactics to get Donald Trump declared unfit and seized the Presidency for himself. I may not agree with Pence's politics or his personal beliefs, but this incident says a lot about his character and fitness for leadership.
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We don't yet know who was directly behind that action.
But we do know it was part of the insurrection, which is what's being discussed in this thread.
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One guy had some zip ties. Just as well the US wasn't overthrown by a guy with a zip tie. Who knew it was that easy? The founding fathers could have had a 2nd amendment with the right to bear zip ties.
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I didn't realise cops were supposed to shoot peaceful protesters. I guess they should have got out machine guns to mow down those BLM rioters firebombing the federal court houses.
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At the time she was shot, Ashli Babbit was scaling a barricade during a violent attack on the Capitol. That doesn't strike me as a peaceful protest.
Re:Far-right (Score:4, Insightful)
If you don't like the conditions those people are being kept in I hope more conservatives get onboard with the concept of prison and judicial reform. Those same awful conditions and unfair treatment are experienced everyday by our ever burgeoning prison population, many in even worse conditions for even lessor charges and shady games by prosecutors are no new concept either. It's progressives that have lead the charge on abolishing the unfair concept of cash bail while resistance to such ideas is very much from the center and the right. No offense but the sudden outrage about this reeks of "it's problem now that it's happening to me!"
Also one can quibble about the semantics of using the term "insurrection" and there are arguments for and against using it but something that should be accepted as to why Jan 6th is considered pretty egriegous is the symbolism of storming the Capital on the day they are performing the process of peaceful transition of power. Many seem to gloss over this and ironically those that do are the same that are positively obessesed with the American Flag, Punisher skulls and quoting the founders. Symbolism and context matters, especially to Americans.
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>"If you don't like the conditions those people are being kept in I hope more conservatives get onboard with the concept of prison and judicial reform."
Agreed. But the main issue I have is the number being held on minor charges for many months without bail, most with zero record. That seems to be fairly outlandish and is only politically motivated.
>"6th is considered pretty egriegous is the symbolism of storming the Capital on the day they are performing the process of peaceful transition of power.
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The term means that whoever uses it is a commie.
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Idiots like you are the problem with humanity.
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It was just an unguided tour of the capitol. Nothing to see here.
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So you're saying you have no fucking clue how this works.
Prosecutors and investigators start with the small fish. They prosecute the lowest levels first, to get plea deals and evidence/testimony agreements. Then they work their way up the food chain, building stronger cases from the convictions, proven evidence, and testimony from the lower-level members of the criminal organization they can get to flip and become witnesses.
So yeah. They spent the last year indicting and prosecuting the mooks. Now they'
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Only a true Progressives like yourself believes everything the FBI says and cheers them on uncritically. How do those boots taste?
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Only a true Progressives...
To judge by the misspelling/miscapitalization... you're either a Ukrainian/Russian troll, or one of the cousinfuckers from the Deep Shitty Klan Trash South. Either way you're of no value to our society, so why don't you just fuck the hell off?