Today's Students Don't Understand the Basics of Computer Operations (theverge.com) 493
A new article in The Verge reports that professors are increasingly seeing the rise of a generation that can't understand even the basic fundamentals of how computers and operating systems work. The very concept of things like directories, folders, and even what a file is seem to baffle a generation that was raised on Google and smartphones, and have no concept of what storage is or how it works. To this generation, all your "stuff" just goes someplace where stuff is kept. Physics professor Catherine Garland was stunned to find that her students couldn't grasp the concept of organized file storage:
"She asked each student where they'd saved their project. Could they be on the desktop? Perhaps in the shared drive? But over and over, she was met with confusion. "What are you talking about?" multiple students inquired. Not only did they not know where their files were saved -- they didn't understand the question.
Gradually, Garland came to the same realization that many of her fellow educators have reached in the past four years: the concept of file folders and directories, essential to previous generations' understanding of computers, is gibberish to many modern students.
The new generation of students sees storage as a "giant laundry basket", where everything is just thrown in, and you go get what you need when you need it. One professor now incorporates an additional two hour lecture and demo in their subject just to teach new students how things like directories work in computer systems. Teachers worry that students will be ill-prepared for professional environments, especially STEM fields, that require rigid organization to keep volumes of data organized. But some professors seem to think that they'll eventually have to surrender to how the young do things.
To understand the basics of computers (Score:5, Insightful)
You need to know basic electricity, or you are operating in a vacuum
Re:To understand the basics of computers (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:To understand the basics of computers (Score:5, Funny)
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Well, you're right. To operate a computer, you only need to how how to store and retrieve data. Not every driver is a mechanic, in Italy (for instance) you have one ride with you. But programmers and designers and maintenance people should know the fundamentals to the electron.
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Re:To understand the basics of computers (Score:5, Insightful)
You used to have to know about cars because they were unreliable and everything was manual. Hand crank to start, manual choke while it warmed to, no indicator lights to tell you which fluid needs topping up. Bulbs needed regular replacement, overheating was something common enough to warrant a thermometer on the dashboard.
Same with computers, you used to have to write at least one cryptic BASIC command to load your games, or navigate DOS. Programmers needed to worry about very limited memory and computers were slow so picking the right algorithm and optimising code was important.
While we still need people who understand computer hardware in detail, a lot of the hard work just isn't needed any more.
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Not down to the electron level unless you're dealing with the hardware. Assembler level is good enough for developers. Maybe some need to know microcode (what the assembler instructions are coded in), and those folks had better know SOME electrical theory. Most C++ programmers don't need anything more basic than C. Most Python programmers can make do with a smattering of C++ or Fortran95 (or Ada, or any of several other similar languages).
Generally you only need to know one level down from the level you
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Understanding the concepts of algorithms and data.
Understanding data storage (or data in different, accessible, locations, and data transfers and copying between locations as needed) as a concept.
Understanding at least sequential processing of data transformations, data value questions, logical decisions, and program logic flow changes such as ifs, loops, subroutine calls.
Understanding representation of information as encoded in binary-value (bit) sequ
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Re:To understand the basics of computers (Score:4, Insightful)
Just open the file explorer in Windows and you'll see a plethora of various folders but no clue to where they actually are in the physical world.
No wonder people have no clue about where their stuff is these days.
Re:To understand the basics of computers (Score:4, Insightful)
Erm. The executable files had execute permissions assigned, something a basic 'ls' command tells you about.
The settings and data store are no more esoteric in Linux than Windows or any other OS I've used.
Re:To understand the basics of computers (Score:5, Insightful)
Assuming you turned OFF the default which hid file extension names in Explorer. I still can't figure out who or why thought this was a good idea.
Re: To understand the basics of computers (Score:3, Funny)
In a Linux environment the document you pulled up to RTFM was written during the Dubya years, and when you asked questions in the proper forum you were berated and given a lecture about the proper way to ask questions
Re:To understand the basics of computers (Score:5, Insightful)
We are still decades away from an effective system that will allow users to not need knowledge of file systems.
Files are the basis for all persistent computer activity, and security concerns alone are sufficient reasons to ensure EVERYONE who works with a computer understands the basics.
Ransomware, Phishing, and other attacks prey on the lack of knowledge of the masses which can cause entire companies to fail.
Re: To understand the basics of computers (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly. And they can't have any such system till they realise some people will always use multiple competing apps so every app trying to lock people into their own folders or clouds is silly.
On android I sometimes have to use the "share"(with other apps) button just to save a file in a desired folder. Or use "insert document" instead of insert picture in whatsapp to avoid it's own jpg compression level or conversion of png to jpg
Re:To understand the basics of computers (Score:5, Insightful)
Files are the basis for all persistent computer activity
That is not true. Databases don't rely on filesystems and don't implement the hierarchical file/folder abstraction. Databases are where most online data is stored. A filesystem is one abstraction of data storage, and not the one that is used most.
That depends what you mean by "most", and whether you think freeform tagging or KV-pairs constitutes a "database" (cue SQL debates).
Regardless, at a *consumer level*, anyone using a Windows, Mac OS, or Linux computer (other than a Chromebook, which restricts local access by default) is interacting with files constantly. The classic Mac system software hid some implementation layers (eg, resource vs data forks), but "file" and "folder" are the key components of the desktop metaphor, and one of the defining principles of any *nix system.
This isn't rocket science, either. The average user doesn't need to know how to program, or even script. But the average user in 2002 knew how to deal with the files that their PC operated with, and nothing fundamentally has changed there.
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Re:To understand the basics of computers (Score:5, Insightful)
Long story short, the cloud providers want you to use their services by default but they work very differently than how most people are used to working with such files, which then results in confusion. Instead of blaming users, these companies should build better interfaces!
Re: To understand the basics of computers (Score:4, Interesting)
Clusterfuck it is. Biggest reason for that being its neither here nor there. They have no good way of saving files n data abstracted enough that user doesn't need to know folders
(for eg win / macos wont even let you save duplicate name files and have no tags or such things automatically populated or suggested for later search / retrieval)
Although any linux DEs will let you save duplicate names that is neither very consistent (only works for files on the desktop in some distros) but then accessing them via file name is a problem as the actual file name is some random type string (like iTunes music files)
I had a tough time clearing space on my kids devices few weeks back.
Android/iOS Gallary or Music apps will show you "folders" which are actually sub-folders a few levels down in some folder. So sometimes you see the same names for multiple sub-folders but if u try to create a folder in that app it will refuse to create (because its creating in a single DCIM or Music or such folder.
iTunes obviously is on a different level duplicating GBs of files all over the place. Finally u just have to delete every thing and let it come back as u use.
Windows keeps changing the default documents/music/.. folders (which redirect to diff locations) and the 'libraries' (which also do that but a little differently) while onedrive has it's own issues requiring me to delete 100GB, reset the app in 2-3 devices and then re-upload and resync.
1deive does seem to be the one with the most promise to solve it soon though TBH, still WIP though.
I find now I keep important/current files in 5-6 different whatsapp groups I have with myself and telegraph's "notes to myself" thing.
While all my normal files are in an entirely different partition / micro SD not linked/mounted to any type of system or apps folders (and synced to gdrive 1drive) which I sorta manually browse to and open files or copy them to required folders (some apps nowadays only open files in their own folders or from designated folders like Music Videos etc)
iOS anyways doesnt even pretend to have any file folder capability available for the user.
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Don't worry, macOS still has its UNIX roots and everything is the right logical place. Just be aware that all Macs are formatted by default to be case-insensitive format, that's pretty much the only thing that could trip you out if you're used to BSD/Linux.
Re:To understand the basics of computers (Score:4, Interesting)
The Mac filesystem is pretty sanely build for modern OSes with GUI applications that tend to have a lot of associated data. The ancient *nix filesystem conventions were designed in an age of command-line programs and utilities, where associated data was rare enough to be shuffled off into its own folder, and disk space was so precious that statically linking libraries was unthinkable.
So, now the default behavior on Linux for user-installed programs is to just create a dot folder in the user's home folder and dump everything there. It works, but it's hardly elegant.
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Honestly, the classic Mac OS system software (well, at least once we got to HFS) really did hit the sweet spot between simplification and utility in file management. This was helped a bit by things like shared libraries (and the equivalent DLL hell) not being a thing until PPC's came out, but letting a given icon on the desktop be chunked as a single thing even if it represented both an unstructured data fork and a structured resource fork made it MUCH easier IMHO for advanced Mac users to really grok how t
Re:To understand the basics of computers (Score:5, Insightful)
In a corporate setting, you DO need to know the difference between locations that are backed up regularly, locations that do not get backed up, locations the public can see, and locations your workgroup can see.
It may normally be OK to know only that spreadsheets can be found in the default location the open file menu item goes to in your spreadsheet program, but what happens when you get a new handy-dandy report generator that takes a spreadsheet as input and spits out a PDF?
We do not need a generation of carpenters holding their hammers by the neck tap-tap-taping for half an hour per nail.
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Any profession that involves significant use of a computer will include use-cases in which the computer operators must understand files and filesystems. There may be very specialized jobs where computer operators are very non-technical users of simple data-entry user interfaces, but I am talking about higher level jobs than that.
High school kids have never encountered such an environment. Why would they? Their use of computers is mostly limited to game systems and cell phones, which means none of the use
Re:To understand the basics of computers (Score:5, Insightful)
Any profession that involves significant use of a computer
That's very quickly becoming 'all of them'. It's astonishing how essential computers have become in such a short time.
will include use-cases in which the computer operators must understand files and filesystems.
This is the single most useful thing people can learn about computers. I have absolutely no idea why this isn't taught in primary school. It's very quickly becoming a skill as important as reading and writing.
I co-founded a non-profit that, among other things, operates a community computer lab. I also sometimes teach AP computer science for a local private school. I'm amazed every year that I see any students who don't understand files and folders.
I think a lot of the blame can be placed on Apple and Google, but Apple started it. They've made the whole concept of where something is stored seem impossibly abstract. "What do you mean where?" is a question I get asked frequently.
High school kids have never encountered such an environment. Why would they?
High school students produce a lot of work on computers. Very few assignments are hand-written these days, certainly nothing like an essay. More than just writing, they often produce presentations, occasionally even videos. They move their work often between home, school, the library, and other resource centers. Good students have a flash drive, which makes their lives much easier. Some students, sadly, need to rush to do most of their work at school, because they don't know how to take it with them.
I also think it is critical that they be taught this stuff in school, lest we leave them ill-prepared
I couldn't agree more. I have no idea why this isn't the standard already. Files and folders don't take long to learn, and they can get practice every day.
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Just because a lot of Mac users don't know where the default folders are on their drive doesn't mean macOS doesn't have a proper file system. That's like saying all Windows users are idiots for getting all those viruses.
Re:To understand the basics of computers (Score:5, Insightful)
We do not need to live in a world where the users of computers understand the intricate details of how computers work. Abstraction should be the norm.
This isn't shielding users from the 'intricacies of how computers work', or keeping excel users from saving files to the system32 drivers folder.
It has reached the point of actively preventing the users to be able to impose their own organizational structure on their files. They aren't taught the desktop + filesystem metaphor, and many apps are actively hostile to using it even if you do know about it.
If you are working on a project, and you have to find the photos you want to include in it from your iphone camera timeline and embed them directly from there, and your powerpoint is wherever powerpoint put it, and your research notes are wherever word put it, and the PDF reference materials you are using are in your email, and web bookmarks, and attached to a discord group chat...
Its truly unfortunate that many people literally do not know how to take all of those things as 'files', and put them all together in one 'folder', that they can access, browse, and manage from the file explorer, and launch whichever app is suitable to any particular document from that folder.
And its batshit crazy that the trend is to make that impossible, so that you literally can't get at the files except through this app or the other one and collect them together.
And its not like there is a newer better paradigm. Google/bing search is pretty good at finding individual documents by keywords and half rememberances of filenames to allow you to more easily get away with not knowing where anything is, but it does nothing to allow or reflect any sort of organizational structure you might need on collections of them, and it likes to go online and find other peoples stuff that half-fits those keywords, and celebrity gossip, and appstore apps... and literally shovel garbage at you.
The current trend is towards an app-centric paradigm that is trying to replace the previous document-centric paradigm, and quite bluntly its NOT a better or more useful paradigm, precisely because it doesn't support working with collections of documents that aren't all edited by the same app.
This is an extremely basic requirement that isn't being met.
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If you want to understand the very fundamentals, then you need to know physics and math to understand the electronics of how semiconductors behave in a transistor configuration and how you can build logic gates using those electronic parts. Then you need some more math to understand how digital logic gates combine into something that can be used for storing information and performing calculations.
But that knowledge is pretty much irrelevant if the
Re:To understand the basics of computers (Score:5, Informative)
Man just think of how bad off we'd be if we didn't know how modern sewage systems worked. We'd just be standing there...looking at it.
Re:To understand the basics of computers (Score:5, Interesting)
My next door neighbor was standing around outside one day when I was gardening and I got to talking to him. Turns out he was waiting for the electrician. An outlet in one of the bedrooms had stopped working. Was the breaker tripped? He didn't know. I could see the breaker box through his open garage door so walked over, looked, found the tripped breaker, turned it off and back on. He thought I was a genius. This was not a stupid guy, but he had been raised in apartments and had never done any home maintenance nor had it ever occurred to him that he was actually capable of doing it.
Re: To understand the basics of computers (Score:3)
Difference between"stupid" and "ignorant". One can't fix the former.
People think I'm crazy-mad-skilled 'cuz I can install a dedicated AC line for a stereo. There was obviously a time when I didn't know how. And there are risks to manage. But those things didn't make me stupid.
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Except that folders and files are just one way of organizing data. In fact it's not even the "real" way that computers operate. Everything is just a memory address. Your drive doesn't have separate little sections set aside for "Folders" it's all "one big laundry basket" where every chunk of data has an address. Then there is a map for where to go.
In fact of all the people who should appreciate the reality of folders and files being meaningless, it's power Computer Science savvy users who leverage this
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A designer/artist/engineer named John Maeda designed the "human computer" exactly like you describe. That was back in 1993 (I feel old...). Have a look into it, it's fascinating and also very educative: what's a human powered computer [medium.com] !
Kids these days! (Score:5, Insightful)
I do, however, love how kids these days have a simple expectation that systems should be developed and designed better!! The problem isn't necessarily with the kids, it's with how the adults try to have the kids conform to their worldview instead of appreciate that there's probably newer, better ways of doing things!!!
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They should, shouldn't they? Too bad they aren't.
As an InfoSec professional this entire article can be summed up to me as "job security".
Thanks, kids!
Re:Kids these days! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Kids these days! (Score:5, Insightful)
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In the article, the students’ computers were issuing a “File Not Found" error when trying to load their work. The students simply did not understand the underlying technology enough to know what that meant or how to address it.
In these well-respected CS/STEM programs, these students have glowing college applications with certificates of completion of high-school CS-focused projects. So, if these students truly don't understand the basics by the time they're going through college STEM education programs, the focus should be on all of the educational institutions who've been morally failing their students (including these CS 101 college courses the students should've completed).
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Re:Kids these days! (Score:5, Interesting)
Directories are better, which is why all computers still have them. You can't share things on a USB drive if you don't have a concept of where a file is stored.
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Directories are better, which is why all computers still have them..
They're called "folders" these days and I actually think it's a better word, it matches their use.
A "directory" is like a phone book. It may be how the file system works works underneath in terms of bits and bytes but its' a horrible way to think of it.
You can't share things on a USB drive if you don't have a concept of where a file is stored.
Who uses USB drives to share things these days? Just send it via Whatsapp (or whatever).
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Folders is only the right word if you're using a gui to manage them. From a terminal directories is better, and directory files is even better. And from an application who knows. It depends on how the application is structured to save data. Perhaps it saves it in a database...so even file isn't distinctive, unless you mean the whole database including it's indexes. (And, of course, that depends on the internal structure of the database. Some database applications store each database as several differe
Re:Kids these days! (Score:5, Funny)
The problem isn't necessarily with the kids, it's with how the adults try to have the kids conform to their worldview
The adults need to realize that files and photos are just things that scroll endlessly past you and anything more than two weeks old is unimportant.
It works much better.
New report claims, "Kids these days!" (Score:5, Funny)
FTA:
After pulling up his pants to his nipples and saying something incomprehensible about the government, local curmudgeon complained that kids these days just don't know the basics of computers anymore.
Re:New report claims, "Kids these days!" (Score:5, Informative)
FTA:
After pulling up his pants to his nipples and saying something incomprehensible about the government, local curmudgeon complained that kids these days just don't know the basics of computers anymore.
This would be funny if the younger generation understood how to protect themselves from loss of their valuables or thieves that drain their money by charging them for services that they don't need. It's amazing how many people today lament about how poor they are when they spend so much time making others rich. There are those who get it and others who call people names like curmudgeon.
The main problem really is (Score:4, Insightful)
They really don't teach assembly in "College" any more.
If you want to learn how computers work, knowing how to write low level code is a real good way to tie it all together.
They prefer to teach languages with much higher levels of abstraction like python/java...
Which is helpful in terms of learning how to write code using software engineering, without a real requirement of how to do it well, or without using GB of libraries from who knows where.
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They really don't teach assembly in "College" any more.
If that's true, it's extremely unfortunate.
Re:The main problem really is (Score:5, Insightful)
they do, but it's part of computer engineering, not computer science.
Re:The main problem really is (Score:4, Interesting)
It was taught as part of the Computer Architecture class at my Uni.
Can todays students (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yes, I remember my teachers telling us we wouldn't always have a calculator at hand....
PS: They probably write more than you ever did - thanks to messaging apps and social media.
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read, write and do basic math? I think there are many things that come before computer training.
TFA was talking about college students taking astrophysics classes. I would assume they know how to read, write, and do basic math.
That's by design (Score:3)
The new generation of students sees storage as a "giant laundry basket", where everything is just thrown in, and you go get what you need when you need it.
Given that most modern computing devices are designed to hide the dirty details from the users, why would that be a surprise?
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It has been like this for about 20 years (Score:2)
Of course (Score:2)
In the past, nobody initially set out to learn about file system. Instead they set out to accomplish some goal, and because you first had to understand the file system to do that, you couldn't proceed until you figured out the file system. So every computer user established some minimum level of understanding about it. OSes and applications have been increasingly designed to make that understanding unnecessary, ergo people don't take that detour on the way to their destination. This should not come as a sur
I've become what I once mocked (Score:4, Insightful)
I recently discovered that I am the "Old Grey Beard" that I once mocked 35 years ago, when I first was starting out.
Time sure changes perspective.
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When your younger coworkers start to look surly, be sure to yell at them, "LOOK AT ME! I AM YOUR FUTURE!"
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When your younger coworkers start to look surly, be sure to yell at them, "LOOK AT ME! I AM YOUR FUTURE!"
I usually stick with this old Dilbert [dilbert.com] line: "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer."
Role reversal (Score:5, Funny)
So in a few years kids will be coming to the retirement home so WE can show them how computers work vs the other way around ??
Awesome !! Can I charge consulting fees?
See: Gmail. (And get off my lawn.) (Score:5, Insightful)
.
Then along came Gmail, where all my messages were heaped into one "giant laundry basket" (to use the TFA's phrase), paired with a ridiculously fast and easy-to-use search function. Within a week I realized it was a better and more efficient paradigm and never looked back. I still use Gmail's labels for some things, sure, but don't have any way to know how my messages are actually stored and organized on Google's servers.
It's not a bad thing to understand computer storage and directory structures, just as understanding the basics of how an engine and transmission work together probably makes you a somewhat better and more efficient driver. But if the car is well-designed, you shouldn't need that knowledge just to get to the grocery store.
Re:See: Gmail. (And get off my lawn.) (Score:5, Insightful)
We use Gmail and work, and sometimes I find that its search can be maddening: I know I have an email on a topic, but I can't find it using search. Sequentially paging through the giant laundry basket to find what you need sucks. That may say more about Gmail's search capabilities rather than the idea of dynamically organizing information based on content.
Re:See: Gmail. (And get off my lawn.) (Score:5, Insightful)
For years I meticulously sorted my emails into a lovely hierarchy of folders, and folders within folders, so I'd be able to find everything.
. Then along came Gmail, where all my messages were heaped into one "giant laundry basket" (to use the TFA's phrase), paired with a ridiculously fast and easy-to-use search function. Within a week I realized it was a better and more efficient paradigm and never looked back.
First off, having to search for everything you need is just retarded. And search only works when you know what you need to search for.
How many times have I given something a name that seems "obvious" at the time but a month later I can't remember what I named it? Hundreds?
But with a little bit of organization, I can quickly and easily find anything.
Organization is important in all aspects of your life. You keep your food in the kitchen. You keep your clothes in your bedroom closet. Computer files are no different.
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For years I meticulously sorted my emails into a lovely hierarchy of folders, and folders within folders, so I'd be able to find everything.
. Then along came Gmail, where all my messages were heaped into one "giant laundry basket" (to use the TFA's phrase), paired with a ridiculously fast and easy-to-use search function.
Yep. I think Google is primarily to blame for this trend, for providing (in multiple contexts, not just mail) such excellent search functionality that we mostly don't need to bother with organization. Google Photos is another great example; I used to meticulously categorize all of my photos. Now, they're all searchable, by person, by content, by date. Just throw all your data in a giant laundry basket, because you can quickly find whatever you need.
Until you can't...
I use Google Drive a lot for work, a
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You know, you can make directories on Google Drive. I'm not being sarcastic: Google really doesn't seem to want you to know that you can do it, but you can.
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My personal laptop's hard drive is highly - obsessively, even - organized. But for something like mail, the laundry basket + good search feels better and more efficient.
As for the AC who thinks "having to search for everything is retarded", how does he deal with a message (or file) wh
Thank you Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Thank you Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
Reminds me of a time I wanted to copy some mp3s from a friend's mac, when I asked what directory their music files were in they gave me a confused look and said "huh? They're all in iTunes"
Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (Score:5, Insightful)
My CS 101 book. It was amazing, and at times challenging. If you can make it through Abelson & Sussman, you are on track to becoming a good programmer. It makes you think about things like your program running on hardware and how compilers work. It is eye opening to a freshman who is new to this world.
Most colleges wouldn't dare touch something like this b/c it is hard, and some students might fail. Dumbing down CS doesn't serve students, but it does keep the enrollment money flowing.
Huh, but not new, just a new symptom (Score:4, Interesting)
Back in the 80s a state, Ohio I think, started training 'displaced homemakers* in technical fields.
The Novell course was extraordinary, and they graduated several women who were well prepared, save for a few fundamentals. For instance, due to lab limitations, one great story detailed a newly-minted network tech on her first desk call, to install a workstation and get it up on the network. She could not for the life of her, apparently, figure out why it did not connect. Her supervisor visited, and found it was not, in fact, connectd to the (then) Thinnet network. No cable connected. This they never taught about in the lab classes, seems they didn't want students messing with cables, terminators, and all that delicate stuff. 15 minutes of training, and by the account she was an excellent tech, performing admirably, Simple fix.
My brother hired an RPG programmer straight out of the local university to help him get ahead of projects. First day, my brother gives the newbie a project, sends him off. By lunch his new programmer comes to him downcast...
"Where's the file for this?"
" It's a new project, you hare to create the file, the specs are there"
"Uh, how do you create the file?"
Turns out the S/36 class was never allowed to actually create files, they ran work in a separate system, loaded and unloaded overnight, all carefully built to avoid unpleasant failures and storage problems... My brother took a bit more than a few days to train up his new guy. And my brother, in his sophomore college year, was night operator, running college production on a S/36 and PDP-11, then unloading the production and loading class on the S/36, putting everything back, and leaving all functional. He was a bit chagrined that a degree graduate had never created the base files... But hey, he loved both systems and just became an IBM guy cause his first employer was converting from DEC to IBM.
Ain't new that fundamentals are either overlooked or ignored, just unfortunate.
* - 'displaced homemaker' was the term for divorced women with children. Therein are many other problems, some solved by employment, some not so easily.
Not surprising - and probably not a problem (Score:5, Insightful)
This really isn't all that surprising. The whole POINT of modern search, discovery and recall tools is that you don't need to meticulously organize your stuff to find it again when you look at it. Most of these students grew up on Gmail, Google Docs/Drive, etc, which at the best of times barely have functioning folder constructs. Even iOS and photos, or Google Photos.
I think it's a credit to the evolution of technology that students are no longer forced to operate within one set of rules - rather, technology is evolving towards users' preferred methods of engagement.
That doesn't mean it's not going to be challenging. Folders and files have no bearing on "how computers work." They're just as much an artificial UX construct as a search box. But there are real issues in understanding the basics that are impacting computer science and engineering departments, and for everyone else - if the tool(s) that basically hold their entire lives are mysteries to them, then they're going to have something go horribly wrong in the future. It feels like the education system does need to teach the basics of cloud, privacy, security, data backups and access, etc - in the same way it needs to (but doesn't always/often) teach the basics of finance and credit, civil rights, property ownership, etc etc.
But the problem here isn't files and folders... that's just a problem for people who grew up on hierarchical organizational trees and can't work any other way. Hand up here, because I struggle with it too.
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Your database is dreadfully inefficient if it stores 50MB emails as anything but an external file or as an object (AKA a blob). Those blobs are referred to by OID. OOOps, looks like you've re-invented the file only now it isn't susceptible to the usual tools for backup and you're locked in to your very special email system.
Meanwhile, that database is stored in a file because that's the natural fundamental construct for the OS to offer. You could stuff the database onto a raw disk, but guess what? That's acc
As an old fart... (Score:3)
Agreed (Score:2)
I thought it was just me seeing the younger generation (I'm old enough to use that term) not understand these basics when we hire them. Even something as simple as how to restart the machine seemed a mystery to some.
I'm guessing these are some of the same people with 40 tabs open on their phone's browser and a dozen pieces of software running who then complain their battery has to be recharged every hour.
As for the part at the end where some think they'll have to "surrender" how the young do things, no. E
Complexity makes it tough these days as well (Score:2)
"File" yes, "Folder" maybe, "Directory" nyet (Score:2, Insightful)
"Directory" is anachronistic, nobody uses that word anymore, much less in the context of storage.
"Folder" is somewhat more useful, but the way we use this in the context of files it represents affinity, not physical address. "Tag" and "label" ate better words.
But "file" is absolutely still current, and you can't go far in life without using this concept.
Knowledge Is Power (Score:2)
I have a few issues with how and what people are taught about computers.
First, I think too many schools, K-12-College (non-computer related degrees), don't start with why computers exist and are ubiquitous. They make data storage, retrieval, creation and manipulation nearly trivial to what the world was before computers. They are not taught how to organize and manage files in a basic manner, be it folder trees, a mass of files that are tagged and indexed for searching, local vs. network vs. "cloud" storag
And this is why (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
they need to see IT alphabet soup on a resume to get past the AI screening
Do you have the time/resources to just go and get that college degree? Back around Y2K when I was still fairly new to corporate IT work the federal government of Canada decided everyone in the CS category needed a post-secondary degree. So the poor folks doing HTML and ColdFusion and whatever else for the past decade with no problem were told to work part-time and go to school part-time to get a degree. Some classes they breezed through, sure, but I did more than a year of private tutoring them for their
File hierarchy and protocols (Score:5, Funny)
Grouping of Files (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's say that I have X files in a data set, or X tax documents for the year 2021, or X estate documents I need to give to my lawyer. I don't remember how many there are, just that I need them all.
Files can be organized and searched by name, metadata such as tags, in hierarchical folders, or even by physical location such as on the desktop. I can search by name, but would need to know the naming format used, or find one document first then search for similarly named ones. Or. I can search by tag, but I would need to remember the tag used, or read through a list of available tags to find the correct one. Tags are useful in that multiple tags can be applied. Or, I can traverse a folder structure. If the folders are named well, it can guide you to the location. I don't think any of these are perfect. The article failed to explore why any of these might be useful versus a single laundry basket of files.
Laundry basket?! (Score:5, Funny)
Do they even understand that old people have more than one laundry basket?!
Maybe you can teach them about file folders by teaching them about laundry.
Re: (Score:3)
Tell us, O wise sage from the future, what systems have been invented in your space-time that replace all of the functional use cases for file systems and e-mail?
Re:"Files" and "Folders" are skeuomorphisms (Score:4, Funny)
Oracle - One database to rule them all. (sorry!)
Re: (Score:3)
Replace 'file' with 'money' or 'favorite shoes' (Score:5, Interesting)
This applies to more than computer files.
If they don't understand basic organization, how will they ever be able to find any physical object?
Just repeatedly ordering a new one from Amazon is a pathetically lousy filing system!
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Replace 'file' with 'money' or 'favorite shoes' (Score:4, Insightful)
The standard method appears to be "Ask Mum".
Re: (Score:2)
You literally do have to manage data yourself. Phones get away with it because they are largely consumer devices with a camera. For people who want to actually share a file with others, it's important to know if the file is on a shared drive or not (as was mentioned in the summary which you apparently didn't read).
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
"Files" and "Folders" are skeuomorphisms and unnecessary in an modern operating system.
This. I wish I had mod points today.
Also worth pointing out that Garland is yet another physicist speaking beyond their capacity.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Embrace the tree
Tree hugger!
Re:"Files" and "Folders" are skeuomorphisms (Score:5, Informative)
You're correct that they are skeuomorphisms but you're incorrect that organizing data is unnecessary.
Humans have been organizing data in one form or another for millenia, long long long before files and folders existed. Our entire intelligence is based on grouping and categorizing everything we encounter.
Throwing everything in a big pile then searching for it later, will work to a certain point - but it does not scale ad-infinitum, at some point the number of results for your search query will be too much and you will start running into inefficiencies in finding what you are looking for. Anyone who has ever tried to find a 10 year old email in their disorganized GMail inbox has run into this issue.
Re: (Score:2)
Can you please show me a modern operating system that doesn't use files and folders. I can't find a single one. I must be missing something. Please point me to the right direction.
Yes on 1, no on 2 (Score:2)
Indeed, if you want an object you can look it up easily based no characteristics you actually *remember* as opposed to some arbitrary file structure. Database access is good.
What's your problem with e-mail though? What are you going to replace it with? DMs? Then at some point, somebody will want to DM multiple people, archive the DMs, etc. e-mail already has all that. I've never seen a substitute that I'd want to dump it for.
Just because something is familiar doesn't mean it's good; but it also doesn'
Re: (Score:2)
Someone was about to throw away a perfectly good laptop, because it was getting really slow. Turns out, the harddisk was dying after 11 years of use. It was perfectly fine after i swapped it with an SSD. They already bought another laptop, so i could keep it.
You'd be surprised how many people think like this and just put their computer at the side of the road (and don't bother to wipe the disk in most cases).
Re: (Score:3)
> "Kids these days don't know anything about clutch, gear ratios and when to shift from first to second gear. All they know is there is something called a stick shift and they should not buy cars that have them"
This is still a valid complaint if said "kid" is wanting to be a automotive/diesel mechanic. You will not be very successful at repairing vehicles if you don't know things like what a manual transmission is, because while it might not be as common as it once was it's still very foundational to the