When Employers Mandate a 'Zoom Happy Hour' (zdnet.com) 104
In his "Technically Incorrect" column, Chris Matyszczyk shares one employee's gripe about their new lockdown-incuded online workplace:
Writing to New York magazine's The Cut — specifically workplace advice columnist Alison Green — the employee expressed frustration about their boss's so-called Zoom Happy Hours. "These aren't really happy hours," the employee says. "They're more 'work meetings with alcohol on Zoom,' and while they're framed as not 'technically' obligatory, they definitely are, and I get pointed comments if I choose to not attend."
Worse, they're not in actual working hours. Their boss, though, believes everyone's in lockdown, so what's the difference...? This particular boss has decreed the (not really) optional Happy Hour is between 5 p.m. and 7:30 p.m...
I was struck by new research from the University of Sydney. The academic title is: "Collecting experimental network data from interventions on critical links in workplace networks." But drift to the press release and you find: "Benefits of team-building exercises jeopardized if not truly voluntary." Lead researcher Dr. Petr Matous described the situation quite baldly: "Many workers told us that they despise team building activities and see them as a waste of time."
The researchers recommend employers try to encourage a good relationship between two employees — but to let them ultimately work it out for themselves. And Matyszczyk believes this approach makes even more sense on Zoom. "If you're on a Zoom Happy Hour with, say, 50 people, there's still only one actual conversation. Even if you want to participate, it's hard to get a word in and have it instantly understood, never mind appreciated."
That is, unless your boss decides to distribute all the online Happy Hour participants into smaller "breakout rooms"...
Worse, they're not in actual working hours. Their boss, though, believes everyone's in lockdown, so what's the difference...? This particular boss has decreed the (not really) optional Happy Hour is between 5 p.m. and 7:30 p.m...
I was struck by new research from the University of Sydney. The academic title is: "Collecting experimental network data from interventions on critical links in workplace networks." But drift to the press release and you find: "Benefits of team-building exercises jeopardized if not truly voluntary." Lead researcher Dr. Petr Matous described the situation quite baldly: "Many workers told us that they despise team building activities and see them as a waste of time."
The researchers recommend employers try to encourage a good relationship between two employees — but to let them ultimately work it out for themselves. And Matyszczyk believes this approach makes even more sense on Zoom. "If you're on a Zoom Happy Hour with, say, 50 people, there's still only one actual conversation. Even if you want to participate, it's hard to get a word in and have it instantly understood, never mind appreciated."
That is, unless your boss decides to distribute all the online Happy Hour participants into smaller "breakout rooms"...
What's the problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
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How generous you think the company would be paying for it.
I remember shortly after college when I had been working at a place at for 3 months at $15/hour (after previously having drained my bank account while looking for work during a recession). They said I should go to the team holiday dinner at a very upscale restaurant, the menu didn't have anything under $120 on it. I said I appreciated how generous they were being and they cut me off saying 'oh, no, we don't have the budget, you'd have to pay yourself
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I've been to a few of these. Since they're paying my hourly rate, I can live with a wasted meeting hour once ever week or so, and a chance to lobby for some of my more creative ideas with a larger group of people not in my direct chain of command. What concerns me is the number of "inclusivity training" seminars that are mandatory, and at which any divergence from the political stance taught by the HR personnel leads to "re-orientaiton". If that sounds troubling to personnel who used to work behind the Iron
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On top of having to pay out of pocket without being able to get reimbursement, it would be after hours as a 'not *really* work', so not paid either. So I would have gotten to spend over a full days pay to have one meal with people I didn't particularly like for a couple of hours of my personal time...
My current employer does these in a better way, during business hours, on the clock, and food and refreshments are provided. Of course that was before the pandemic, nothing really on that front since.
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A previous employer used to hold the monthly team meetings where all the 'corporate' stuff was covered during the lunch hour. As compensation for taking up the lunch break they used to feed us. We got a free buffet of reasonable quality and management got to do the meeting without it taking up time that could be charged to customers. All round it was considered a win. There wasn't pressure to attend but just about everyone did unless they had a pressing reason not to.
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I prefer such meetings to be Online (without pictures) rather than in person.
They are tedious in the extreme and if I'm physically there I have to pretend to pay attention. Online, I can get on with something else and only pay enough attention to recognise my name when they want me to make some contribution. If I miss that, well, I was making a "pit stop".
Roughly half the time is spent listening to one person speak, someone who does not understand that not everybody cares. Our "team" is made up of two se
Re: What's the problem? (Score:1)
I'm sorry if I got you wrong but you seem to be arguing for the merits of "exclusivity" which can be interpreted as, uh, racism, homophobia, xenophobia, antisemitism, depending on which particular people you would care to "exclude". ;)
If your political orientation is that it's ok to be rude to people who are different from you then yes you need some re-orientation.
In many countries with strong hate speech laws publicly expressing this "orientation" means you're a criminal and will end up in jail
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> If your political orientation is that it's ok to be rude to people who are different from you then yes you need some re-orientation.
This is exactly the problem. Are you unaware of the history of "re-orientation" camps under Marxist regimes? Or just such camps where the Falun Gong and Uighur are being harvested for human organs? The irony that you are demanding my re-orientation is especially ironic. Perhaps I could receive hormones, just like Alan Turing, to prevent my criminal behavior.
Oh, no, I've co
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@eggstasy You may be a reasonable person. It's difficult _not_ to mock the furthest left, and I've done so to demonstrate the problem, not to insult you personally.
Re: What's the problem? (Score:2)
So what, i AM cheap and i have zero problems in people knowing that i don't waste my money in alcohol, nor i waste more time than necessary hanging out with coworkers. I have my life and you have yours, go spend time or money however you see fit, i do the same.
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Labor laws say they have to pay for the Time (AT OT rates if over 40 hours that week) and maybe even the dinner as well.
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If they hand required it, sure, but it isn't required.
It's framed as 'hey, we are all friends, lets take some time together after work and have a nice dinner together as friends, who happen to work at the same place'.
Like the article, it's not "required" but it has consequences for opting out that aren't particularly fair to those that want to opt out. It's a bad workplace culture.
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I had already been planning to turn it down because I wanted to spend that time with family instead, but then spent several days being accused of being a cheapskate by several people for declining to attend.
It sounds like you worked with a bunch of fuckheads. Your boss accidentally did you a favor by exposing this fact, through no intent of its own.
Any business that can't afford to pay for a team dinner is struggling, and just like you don't want to work for assholes, you don't want to work for some business that's barely solvent.
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Note that this was a department in a much bigger company. The bigger company had plenty of money, but didn't support off-work gatherings as an expense. So this was the idea of the manager, who felt it should be special and thus expensive, but no way he could pay for it, and work won't pay for it, so everyone should want to come and spend a little extra to have food among 'friends'.
That was a pretty extreme event that demanded both time and, what was for me more than a day's income, but at various companies
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Sounds like a great excuse to compare salaries. "You mean everyone here is dropping 10+ hours of wages on a single meal?"
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Ugh, the only reason to go to a holiday party is indeed for the free dinner. Paying for it yourself misses the point. If the company can't afford to buy dinner for everyone, then the party should just a simple mixer in the break room with some beer, hor's-doeuvres, and beer.
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I didn't mean to include beer twice, but that works too.
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a simple mixer in the break room with some beer, hor's-doeuvres, and beer.
That's not got much beer in it.
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Back in the 80s I worked with a guy who worked in the Manhattan marketing offices of RCA in the 60s -- "Mad Men" days. They ended every week with a cocktail party, booze on the company. At first the party started at 4PM on Friday, but it got earlier and earlier until the drinking started Thursday afternoon.
He used to tell that story, shake his head, then say, "No wonder we went out of business." Technically that wasn't true; RCA was still in business, but it was a ghost of what it had been twenty years
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Mandatory Fun (Score:3, Interesting)
Your boss is a fool and a moron. Skip it and if you get penalized then get a better job.
More likely is that others will follow your lead and stop coming. Then you'll have respect and the meetings will stop.
Don't be so damn agreeable.
Re:Mandatory Fun (Score:5, Informative)
It's not that easy. If you skip and nobody says anything, but then you find you weren't included in some important work related discussion or got passed over for a promotion... Well it's very hard to prove that it's because you didn't attend the mandatory fun.
In many places if you could prove it then it could be illegal to penalize you for not attending an optional social event. If it is effectively mandatory then it becomes a company event, with all that entails re rules and expected behaviour.
Looking for a better job is a good idea, but not always possible and in many jurisdictions people have a right to not endure this kind of thing at work.
Re:Mandatory Fun (Score:4, Funny)
Would be interesting to see the opposite. Attend, completely plastered.
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Silly (Score:2)
Most adults would believe you're an alcoholic with an incredibly high alcohol tolerance and likely drunk at work all the time. Either that or they wouldn't notice nor care.
Only an underage drinker or younger would be impressed by "that".
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Outside work hours so behave as you normally do in leisure time: loud music, dress down (if at all), play with the dog, sing noisily & out of tune, ...
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I like the idea of playing music like in a bar loud enough that it's impossible to have any work conversations. "Can you mute yourself?" "What?" "I said--" "Sorry, can't hear you over the music! What a party!!!"
Re:Mandatory Fun (Score:4, Insightful)
It's exactly this kind of FOMO shit that causes Americans, as a group, to not take all the vacation time they're owed, or to bust their ass for more than 40 hours a week, every week, at a salaried position, with the promise of a raise or promotion that mysteriously never comes because of "cutbacks".
If 37 of you went to a bar, do you think anything useful is getting done? No? So why would it be different over Zoom? You're going to hear the leader, or a few leaders, bloviate because they like to hear themselves talk, and that's an hour of your life you're not getting back.
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Not, however, to remove yourself from a toxic environment.
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Not [hard], however, to remove yourself from a toxic environment.
It can be quite hard for some. Not everyone works in a hot market/industry with easily transferable and marketable skills. There is some truth to that being because of poor decisions by the employee, but being at the right place at the right time is also huge. Or just being lucky enough that a field you are passionate about happening to also be lucrative (like myself in the software field).
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Mod ranton up!
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Re:Mandatory Fun (Score:5, Insightful)
As an Actual MBA, I have to agree. That boss is really stupid.
While there is value in downtime from work, and building camaraderie between workers and management. However strongly advised gatherings after business hours with drinking will not achieve that effect.
While a lot of people do drink, they are some who do not for various reasons, recovering alcoholic or family history with alcoholism, religious objections, health issues, or just doesn't like the taste. So you will probably get a few people in that group who are just going to be uncomfortable for no good reason.
Then bosses need to realize you can have a good working relationships without actually being friends with each other. They are people who I work with well, we even joke around and get things done, but I wouldn't call them my friend who I want to hang out with in my free time, while I may enjoy working with them, outside the work environment we may have little in common. Having an after hours Happy Hour, is more like an annual family gathering vs. hanging out with you buds.
What is more effective, is during business hours more lax regulations on work from home tools, like Zoom or Teams. Allow emails and messages to go off topic and close to the line of appropriateness. Allow for "water cooler" talk and general chitchat. Even if you are an introvert you do sometimes like some human conversations, and the extroverts need it. Trying to schedule "Fun Time" and put it out of your business hours, is just a bad idea, and will have an opposite effect. Where other than building relationships you are putting a wedge between them, making further work efforts more difficult. Especially if you actually get to know some of these people outside of their working relationships and you find that they may be outside of work identity (A conservative nutjob, A liberal goody-two-shoes, a Religious Fanatic, An Atheist hardliner, or perhaps that person is Gay, Trans, or just straight with some odd kink) and for them they may see part of you that is just as unappealing. So now when you work with them, you feel slightly more negative towards them.
Work is work, don't expect to be friends with your co-workers. But civil and trusting enough to get the work done.
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Your boss is a fool and a moron.
It's also likely the boss is just being disingenuous, and is simply exploiting their workers.
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then get a better job.
That's an odd way to say sue them and retire...
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Skip it and if you get penalized then get a better job.
Sure, let's just queue with the millions of unemployed people.
You are fortunate and *privileged* enough to be less agreeable. Don't lose sight of the fact that there are those who aren't.
My response (Score:3, Insightful)
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Remote work might have exacerbated.. (Score:2)
But at least in my experience, it's long been a problem where there's a social expectation to 'hang' outside of working hours at events declared by a manager.
I always skip them but it means I get the stigma of being one of those people that doesn't want to be friends with people. Except I do hang out with coworkers on occasion, but just not as a whole group in designated events, when our families can get together.
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I think a lot of this is age driven. Single and in my 20s, socializing with my co-workers was more appealing, although I can't say I went out of my way to experience it. At that age I had an IT support role and had a lot of social contact with many employees in a large office, so socializing just kind of organically happened.
Really, though, once I got married in my early 30s it happened a lot less. I had more established adult relationships and being married our friendships tended to shift to other coupl
Quick and Easy Solution (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Quick and Easy Solution (Score:5, Funny)
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Ideally get someone to mix you some cocktails as well for your expense report. They often have interesting names. Had a funny story from my workplace:
HSE department went out on a bender. The bill was itemised. The head of department refused to sign it on the basis of what was listed and it was escalated to the plant manager. So up it went, the guy trying to get it approved hid the receipt at the very back hoping it wouldn't be looked at. Handed it over. It got signed. Just before handing it back the plant m
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This can work, if done right (Score:5, Interesting)
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We do something similar, but it was organized by an individual in our group for a half hour right before lunch.
We call it the "virtual water cooler" meeting and mostly discuss personal life or answer each other's questions about the new benefits plan or whatever.
The boss is invited, but only shows up about a third of the time.
I think it's a great way to stay connected.
If our boss was mandating something off-hours like the OP, I think we'd talk it through with him and negotiate something closer to what works
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We do something similar during work hours on Fridays. The bosses are invited (one is new, so he was just added) and sometimes show up. The rest of us show up when we want. It's reasonably fun and helps make up for not seeing the rest. And it's also called the "virtual water cooler".
The boss has run two special events - one was a virtual launch party where he ordered pizza delivery for each of us. (Did you know that if you order 15 pizzas from Dominoes for delivery to different locations that it looks s
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I think some bosses use team building exercises the wrong way. They're not a substitute for fixing problems on the team; if a team is dysfunctional then making them spend more time together is only going to make them more dysfunctional.
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We used to do lunch at a local pub on Friday. Go for a (soft) drink and maybe something to eat. It was good, and completely optional.
Actually I really miss the lasagne. It was great until the horse meat scandal broke, at which point it presumably switched to beef and was never the same again.
Very easy to stop this sort of nonsense (Score:1)
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Harris/Pence 2024?
Re:Very easy to stop this sort of nonsense (Score:5, Funny)
Perhaps invite Richard M. Stallman as a guest presenter?
The risk of saying something wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
While I have no evidence that it is true, I suspect that the stress of fearing that I might say something wrong actually increases the possibility that I might do just that.
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If you think that saying something wrong on a company social meeting ends your career then you have something more important to worry about than your career. If such fear would be justified then the company is toxic and you should leave anyway. If it is not justified then you are afraid of imaginary threats.
Where would this be these days? Fantasyland?
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Have you not been paying attention to the culture lately?
During work hours or GTFO (Score:2)
I worked at Tivoli shortly post-acquisition and they still had the company beer bashes. But we cut out early on Friday to have them.
If your boss wants to have a company event, it can schedule it for work hours and pay you for it.
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I worked for a company which celebrated milestones with a company holiday - e.g. a weekend in the Canary Islands, charter flight and hotel paid for, make your own arrangements for how to spend your time and where you want to eat out. I don't specifically remember, but knowing that company they probably gave us spending money which would cover meals in a decent restaurant with a few drinks.
I don't think anyone complained about giving up their free time, and I didn't complain about spending a bit of my own mo
There's always that one person in management... (Score:3)
... that ruins things.
In a previous life, I worked for an organization comprised of engineers and technicians working on govt. contracts. The asst. director who held our weekly meeting always began by warning us how much an hour-long meeting was costing and there wouldn't be any time to debate what color LEDs should be used for a project, or go into long discussions about the technical details of a problem someone was having, etc. As these weekly all-hands meetings were already too time-consuming to allow this sort of dialog. I volunteered to do an internal newsletter where my co-workers could share interesting things they'd come up with on their projects, an occasional Far Side cartoon that was applicable to work, etc. (The idea came about after a visit to a group at NASA/Ames where members of the group were encouraged to write a short technical paper each week to inform others about some aspect or application of the work they were doing.) After about three or four issues, the director of our group -- who was always too busy to attend the weekly meetings -- decided that I should collect progress reports from all the engineering teams to include in the newsletter (which also would change the frequency of the little publication from approximately monthly to weekly). The intent of the newsletter was suppose to be a place where individuals could offer up something interesting, fun, etc. not become a work requirement. There was only one more issue. I didn't have to explicitly say why the last issue was the last issue---everyone knew why: management made it a chore. I cringe thinking about what he night mandated if a technology like Zoom had been available.
I think unions are generally the wrong approach bu (Score:2)
I think unions are generally the wrong approach but this is a great argument for the pro side.
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What's wrong with unions? Pushing back on overreach is exactly their job.
Re: I think unions are generally the wrong approa (Score:2)
Political hacks use mod points when they don't have a rational argument.
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Wait, I have to do less work and not worry about constantly growing job requirements? That sounds great, why wouldn't I want that?
Seriously, this sounds like anti-union propaganda. I don't know what you're talking about in real-life. I don't know any unions that limit output by skill or talent - although I do know unions that limit your ability to "volunteer" for unpaid overtime or similar. I also know unions that force more skilled employees to mentor younger employees as part of their job descriptions
Not happy hour but... (Score:3)
No, my boss does not do a "happy hour" but he does have a one hour meeting (during normal working hours) weekly blocked off for the engineering department to gather. No topic, work talk is mildly discouraged but still happens, just hang out & shoot the shit. It's been going on now for nearly a year & we actually like it. Yes we got double/triple booked & regularly miss it but all of us try to attend. Usually it boils down to geek talk, the Expanse & other science fiction, the latest 3D printing technology, Starlink & Elon Musk being a douche, stuff like that.
After hours, dream on. We got enough meetings after hours because of time zone differences.
Sigh. (Score:2)
Am I on the clock or not?
If I'm on the clock, I want financial compensation and it to be written into my contract (which, hey, if you want to arbitrarily add terms into it, there's a phrase for that: contract renegotiation).
If I'm on the clock, I don't want me or my colleagues drinking alcohol. Or do you have a rule that we can all drink alcohol whenever we're on the clock if we want to?
If I'm on the clock, I expect to be working and those around me who have necessary purposes who are also on the clock to
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"I was disappointed that you didn't come along. Are you not a team player?"
Management is capable of having both positions simultaneously.
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One place I was at would bring in customers for training (and sales pressure) and there'd be beer and hor's-doeuvres afterwards. For awhile the developers were highly encouraged to attend and mingle. I don't think they realized just how lousy an idea it was to have actual developers mingling with customers. We weren't all good at small talk, and the customers only wanted to talk about product stuff we couldn't talk about. It didn't last long and we became optional, but we'd still show up after the custome
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If I'm on the clock, I don't want me or my colleagues drinking alcohol.
Tough, if work says it's a happy hour your colleagues can drink if they want.
Or do you have a rule that we can all drink alcohol whenever we're on the clock if we want to?
Are you really that stupid?
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You are on the clock, and your assigned task is socializing with these people. We can create a task ticket if it helps you, with a burndown chart for every 5 minutes spent in conversation.
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Yeah, sadly, that's not one of my duties in my job description or contract.
You'll need a renegotiation to put it in there.
And no: "Any other reasonable..." blah doesn't cut it I'm afraid. If they disagree, we can discuss it... in a renegotiation.
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Meanwhile, we consider you to be in breech of contract and won't be paid until the situation is resolved.
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Ah, I see you live in that backwards country without any legal protection for workers.
You're fucked, if so. I'll be fine, because I live in a country with employment law and they couldn't do that without proving gross misconduct (which this wouldn't be, and would need a court to prove it) and even then they certainly could NOT withhold pay while that was all going on.
There's a reason that other countries don't shit on their workers and it's because they CAN'T without it becoming far more expensive and prob
Re: Sigh. (Score:2)
You are correct. :-)
No shit, "researchers". (Score:2)
It was that way fifty friggin' years ago and all the intervening ones too.
Re: No shit, "researchers". (Score:3)
I hate these things (Score:5, Insightful)
I actually really enjoy my coworkers, but I hated going to team lunches. My office is close enough to home that I would walk home for lunch, eat, talk to my partner and pet my cats, then walk back. Even in the winter in the middle of a blowing storm, it was nice to get away from my desk, have a quick bite, then walk home. It was good for my back and my mood.
Team lunches always felt like one more way to tie me to the office and eat at a restaurant (on my own dime) that was gouging me for small portions. I need a lot of food, so my lunch would always be way more than I wanted to spend, so the whole thing felt really dissatisfying.
Working from home is better for me for literally dozens of reasons, but not being forced to go to lunches I don't want to is high on the list.
And honestly, I don't want to do any more socializing or 'relaxing' at my desk or my computer. I want to sit in a comfy chair and watch something funny on Netflix and pet a cat. None of these things build any extra team spirit, team spirit is built by having people working towards a common goal and being decent to one another. I've worked with great people and garbage people over my career, and the mandatory lunches never changed how I felt about a single one of them.
(I am the boss) (Score:4, Interesting)
We tried them a few times early in the pandemic, organized by one of our more social folks (marketing person, not to push stereotypes). It was miserable— we had about 16-20 people out of 40-50, one of my two partners eventually joined after significant offline prodding, and there wasn’t any honest conversation. It was like some awkward ZoomSmallTalk language evolving.
I really wanted it to work— it was around the end of the first lockdown and everybody was stressed out and seemed to need more direct interaction with co-workers. I wanted to check in on people that didn’t report to me to make sure everybody had some place to work from, and that they were doing ok and using the technology available (unsuccessfully).
We did one or two more, I ducked out for one of many reasons, and they never took off. What I and my partners eventually did for our needs was just cycled through everybody one on one and checked in on them. Maybe groups of 4-9 would have worked better for socializing, but I would worry that it would create worse “cliques” in the office than anything else.
play a board game (Score:1)
and don't make it mandatory. People who are stuck at home in lock down will show up on their own. People who are busy with family or other obligations can respectfully bow out.
Work is not a college dorm (Score:3)
A lot of companies seem to try to mimick the college experience - large open areas to work in, cubbies to hide in, cafeterias to eat in, and nap rooms to, um, nap in. And the socials, and the lunch and learns, and the clubs, and the social causes, etc. etc.
Why don't we teach the younger minds how adult workplaces function, rather than trying to re-invent their homorone-adled college days? Instead of stealing their lunch hours, we could let them take a breather mid-day. Rather than forcing 5pm 'social' interaction, we could let them pursue their private lives and personal relationships. Rather than forcing them to participate in the self-serving corporate social causes, we could let them pursue their own priorities.
Mangers are not 'social directors', and I really wish they'd stick to their knitting and just manage the business concerns for which they're responsible.
Control freaks are everywhere (Score:2)
And they tend to gravitate toward positions of authority.
What's new about that?
Shitty boss be shitty. (Score:3)
This seems like all those patents we saw in the early 2000s where someone just slapped "on the Internet" onto something that already existed, hoping to make a shedload of money for essentially no work.
This article is taking a shitty thing that shitty bosses do, and adding "on Zoom" to make it pandemic-relatable. They are still a shitty boss that runs their team in a shitty un-inclusive way regardless of if you are working remote or not. My guess is that this is also the kind of boss who has team golf leagues where the participants get to leave the office early to drink beer and hack away at golf balls badly, but people not interested in golf get to sit there an extra couple of hours and be more productive because the boss has fucked off to work on that -14 handicap.
A good boss would still try to have events like this, but keep them social and not even keep track of attendance. If people find it entertaining and worth their time, they show up. If they don't, then get it off people's schedules and try something else. Early in the pandemic, my boss (who since left the company for other opportunities) actually hired a comedian to come on Zoom during a happy hour thing and do his routine for the team. He did that with his own money. It was awesome, and gave many people on the team a little break from the reality we're faced with, and showed that he actually gave a shit about team morale and people's spirits.
Compulsory happy hour isn't something that anyone finds of value, and even less so on Zoom.
Just use this... (Score:4, Informative)
so just say (Score:1)