Myths About USB Type-C (electronicdesign.com) 89
Julie Stultz, Technical Marketing Manager at ON Semiconductor, writes for ElectronicDesign: 1. USB Type-C and PD are complicated: With a universal connector that can plug into a power host (source) or device (sink), it seems like the negotiation of which device is powering which can be overwhelming for product designers and consumers. However, products can have more -- or less -- complexity based on the product designer's needs. For Type-C only devices, a single IC can be used to control all of the connection handshakes. For more complex features, the Power Delivery protocol (PD) can be implemented. There's a strict set of guidelines that must be followed to be USB-C PD compliant. Products receive approval from the USB-IF governing committee before they're certified. Utilizing firmware from certified IC vendors can simplify design the solution.
2. USB Type-C and PD is expensive: To detect, attach, and negotiate communication, it would seem that the transition from USB 2.0 to USB-C would become expensive. For basic USB-C functionality, a basic state-machine controller can be used. Controllers are available on the market for 3. All Type-C ports have identical functionality: Despite a common connector, the actual feature set of a USB-C port can vary significantly. Ports on travel adapters only charge devices. Ports on wearable devices typically only receive charge. Ports on dual-role devices such as laptops can still see variation in port features. Power levels for standard Type-C ports are limited to 15 W while ports that implement PD can negotiate power up to 100 W. In addition, some ports are capable of data communication up to USB SS Gen 2 speeds of 10 Gb/s. Other features may include DisplayPort or Thunderbolt support. The article debunks eight more myths.
2. USB Type-C and PD is expensive: To detect, attach, and negotiate communication, it would seem that the transition from USB 2.0 to USB-C would become expensive. For basic USB-C functionality, a basic state-machine controller can be used. Controllers are available on the market for 3. All Type-C ports have identical functionality: Despite a common connector, the actual feature set of a USB-C port can vary significantly. Ports on travel adapters only charge devices. Ports on wearable devices typically only receive charge. Ports on dual-role devices such as laptops can still see variation in port features. Power levels for standard Type-C ports are limited to 15 W while ports that implement PD can negotiate power up to 100 W. In addition, some ports are capable of data communication up to USB SS Gen 2 speeds of 10 Gb/s. Other features may include DisplayPort or Thunderbolt support. The article debunks eight more myths.
4. The physical plugs and sockets (Score:5, Insightful)
5. The physical connectors are just as well designed for laptop safety as Apple magsafe connectors were.
Re: 4. The physical plugs and sockets (Score:2)
so spend $25
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07M... [amazon.com]
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There aren't any small form factor connectors that are significantly more robust than USB-C. Unless you got to exotic materials for both the connector housing and the PCB it is attached to you simply can't make it any stronger.
That said, USB-C is remarkably robust and well designed. Self wiping contacts, a metal housing that guides them in and the male connectors (on the cable) are designed to break first in the case of excessive force being applied.
For safe charging you can get magsafe style USB connectors
LOL (Score:5, Funny)
"Myth: USB Type-C and PD are complicated" doesn't take long to transfer to
"Myth: All Type-C ports have identical functionality: Despite a common connector, the actual feature set of a USB-C port can vary significantly. Ports on travel adapters only charge devices. Ports on wearable devices typically only receive charge. Ports on dual-role devices such as laptops can still see variation in port features. Power levels for standard Type-C ports are limited to 15 W while ports that implement PD can negotiate power up to 100 W. In addition, some ports are capable of data communication up to USB SS Gen 2 speeds of 10 Gb/s. Other features may include DisplayPort or Thunderbolt support."
If you need a paragraph of jargon, sorry, it's complicated.
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All of them, at sufficient voltage.
Oh, you mean safely.
Hmm. Half a millimeter pin pitch. So maximum voltage before arcing becomes a problem is somewhere on the order of 1500V. Call it 1000V for safety. So if the cable is rated only for 500 mA... yeah, they can all carry about 500W safely, give or take.
Oh, you meant in a way that complies with USB PD? Heck if I know. Nobody really understands that stuff. :-D
Re:LOL (Score:4, Funny)
Ah come on now, let's make it fun. And pump 40A through a 28awg wire, people will get scorch marks and home made lightening all day long.
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Don't forget: short runs at narrow gauge is fine. You want 120V at 20A? 12 AWG wire. It's running 2 inches? 16 AWG is fine, apparently. Short run has low resistance.
The maximum length of a USB cable limits its resistance at its wire gauge. The pins can be narrower than the wires necessary to carry the power safely...technically. Whether they're designed to take advantage of that is another matter entirely.
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So 1500V at 20A. 30 kW. Yay! We're finally getting into the territory where I could ostensibly use the same cable to charge both my laptop and my Tesla!
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How many USB C cables can carry 100 watts?
The USB-C power brick for my Thinkpad T480 says 95 watts, is that close enough?
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Some of the gaming laptops I looked at a few years ago with dual Nvidia 1080's used two 350 watt power supplies or one 750 watt.
Yes, the power supply itself weighed more than some of the smaller laptops out there.
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The part where I stopped reading was:
All Type-C ports have identical functionality.
(in bold as if that conveys clarity and understanding)
How many different values of "identical" and "functionality" are necessary to make that statement true?
You need industry insider level knowledge to even know what name any given USB port has today.
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Apparently you stopped reading before you got to the first word. It's myths about USB Type-C.
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And like most myths, they are rooted in truth.
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Yeah....single connector type....so take 2 type C power supplies, and connect them with a type-C to type-C connector....they shoud transfer data at 10GB/s.
PS: DON'T!! I DON'T KNOW WHAT CAN HAPPEN, BUT FIRE DEPT. CAN GET INVOLVED.
Depends on the charger (Score:2)
A well behaved charger that does implement correctly the various USB protocols will simply not detect any USB sink (as each one identifies as a charger) asking for charging and thus won't do anything.
Is guaranteed to be safe.
Theoretically, a cheap but not too badly designed charger will simply charge the wires to 5v and that's about it. If you connect two of them on cable, they'll reach 5V in the cable a few pico seconds later and then their output will drop to 0A. (well designed chargers shouldn't have pot
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Missed sarcasm?
I did not say it happened to me, or that I don't consider brands when shopping.
I've worked with 50W lab power supplies in series. I know the dangers and always try to think ahead.
But as with why car manuals specify to keep your hands on the wheel when cruise-control is activated, I can't say that nobody did/will try it and get burned.
Not to mention why power supplies would need 10Gb/s.
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Having all that functionality on one common connector sounds like a great ideal, until you realize that each port now has a row of icons you don't recognize next to it, and even though the connector is the same the cables are not.
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I also enjoyed the explanation that cables can be very different, while looking physically identical, then a couple paragraphs later saying that it really is universal, one cable to rule them all. Did anyone else notice the author was Technical _Marketing_ manager? This is a sales pitch disguised as technical information.
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What a bunch of BS (Score:1)
There are like 7 different versions of PD, with one logo more confusing than the next. And if the cable is not ok, you can fry a device.
As for expensive, try to buy a USB C cable, a USB C power supply, or a USB C battery bank, and tell me again that it is not more expensive.
So wrong on all counts.
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Some are more equal than others.
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Indeed - and cheap cables don't work all of the time, but you can't tell a cheap one from an overpriced cheap one, and you can't tell if this time it's not working is the cable, the 'sender' or the 'receiver'.
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Two differential pairs good, four differential pairs bad.
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And if the cable is not ok, you can fry a device.
And this is a critical problem, I think. I remember the bad old days when swapping the mouse and keyboard connections could fry something, and that's a bad idea.
That said, do you have link or such to how this can happen?
idiot has debunked nothing (Score:5, Interesting)
USB C is complicated, surprising compatibility problems exist, it might be a USB PD or not, some USB-C is USB 2.0, USB 3.1 can exist with other connector shapes and USB 3.2 will use USB-C connector...
it's a mess. fuck this shill for saying the mess is fine
Technical Marketing Manager (Score:5, Informative)
Julie Stultz, Technical Marketing Manager...
... aaand that's when the reading stops.
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Nah your post or arrogant shit and so are the mods who marked this add insightful.
On semi sell chips to engineers. The technical marketing people actually know stuff.
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Are you really so clueless? Her job is to market her company's products to engineers. USB-C is part of their product portfolio, she is trying to make it sound good in order to sell it. Whether she knows stuff or not is completely irrelevant, it's just an ad. It might not sound like an ad to clueless people, but that's what it is...
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Well their data sheets suck pretty bad, this marketing engineer is unlikely to be in the same country as the engineers who design any of it.
The only chip company that I know of who has English speaking support engineers is TI. Or at least they speak Texan, but close enough.
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I've had great support from linear in the past. No idea how they are now that AD own them.
Is this a troll? (Score:3, Interesting)
Julie Stultz: "USB type-C is not complicated, here's five paragraphs worth of technical jargon that you need to remember."
Me, about USB 3 when it launched: "it works with your current USB keyboard, USB mouse, USB drives, USB printers and USB scanners. USB 3 devices will be faster than USB 2".
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It's not complicated. You just need to buy all new stuff: new computers, new phones, new tablets, new cables, new speakers, new adapters, new foot massagers. After that you should also get all new friends to help spread the word! Glory to the Many!
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It's not complicated. You just need to buy all new stuff: new computers,
Did that.
new phones,
Yep.
new tablets,
Being delivered now, we should have them tomorrow.
new cables,
Of course.
new speakers,
Check.
new adapters,
Certainly, I even have spares right here.
new foot massagers.
Uh, I didn't think of that. May the USB have mercy.
After that you should also get all new friends to help spread the word! Glory to the Many!
All praise to USB!
The article validates the myths, not debunks them (Score:5, Informative)
The article debunks eight more myths.
The article does nothing to "debunk" the myths. It explains the myths with useful technical justification. But it doesn't disagree with them.
Just take the first one as an example. "USB Type-C and PD are complicated:" It explains why they are complicated. The next one talks about expense, and it explains how there are many price points based on features. That doesn't debunk the myth, it maybe mitigates it. Myth 6 is that the type-C cable is different from A&B, which it is -- it just explains the benefits of type C.
This is a really informative article, but not a debunking at all.
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Myth 6 is that the type-C cable is different from A&B, which it is -- it just explains the benefits of type C.
Not that I'm defending the article at all, I'm just thinking I read that differently. I read the myth is that the USB-C connector is only a different form factor than A&B, as in the myth is that it offers very little in extra function.
One obvious function advantage for USB-C is not needing to know which way its up, after that someone might think it's mostly just a ploy to get people to buy more stuff. Buy more stuff that they wouldn't need if the USB standards group didn't come out with a new connecto
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Yes, I see that interpretation too now.
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/Oblg. It missed discussing USB superposition [imgur.com] :-)
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Myth: systemd is a freedesktop.org project. Well, systemd is certainly hosted at fdo, but
Myth: systemd is a feature creep. Well, systemd certainly covers more ground that it used to.
Myth: systemd is complex. There's certainly some truth in that.
Myth: systemd is bloated. Well, bloated certainly has many different definitions.....
I have a stupid sense of humor but it makes me laug
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I laugh at you every time I read it, too, and all those like you.
Re: The article validates the myths, not debunks t (Score:3)
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One of us had reasoning supporting their post. It wasn't you.
Your comment did not contain supporting reasoning. Mine did. This one does too.
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Mirror time. Can you see the supporting reasoning in your comment? No? That's because you didn't include any. It isn't unfortunate, it is just pathetic.
Now, when you type out your pathetic reply, and you press "preview," stop and scan for supporting reasoning.
Notice that I'm talking about what you said, you're talking about what you "think" I know. Although that isn't thinking, that's just presumption based on your own limited knowledge of yourself. It doesn't even touch on me and what I may or may not know
Re: The article validates the myths, not debunks (Score:2)
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If you're programming and working with systemd at the same time, you damn well better be using some sort of continuous integration process for your code, and if you're using real tools like a big boy then you look at all the systems capabilities you get from systemd and you praise the Heavens for being rid of SysV.
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Yeah, I also didn't ask, "Whatabutt the Alamo?"
There are lots of serious engineers working on that code base, why would you make such a weird guess about the code quality?
Oh, right, the original author has a foreign name that your friends make fun of, that's why.
Re: The article validates the myths, not debunks (Score:2)
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LOL that's the funniest thing I've read all week. I had to cover my face with a pillow to keep from waking my wife up and having to try to explain the joke.
Re: The article validates the myths, not debunks (Score:2)
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You didn't show them not to be myths, you're just acting like a clown.
And it is only funny because you think you're being a serious-minded smart guy. LOL
If you really looked at the code and found quality problems, you could become famous by fixing them, but that's obviously not the case. If you looked at the code, you discovered, "OMG! I didn't write this! I would have done it differently!" and you didn't even slow down to realize it was written by or under the supervision of engineers, has normal code test
Re: The article validates the myths, not debunks (Score:2)
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Waving your hands doesn't make the engineers wrong, it only makes you an idiot.
Analog audio (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Analog audio (Score:4, Informative)
I have not been able to spot any cable that transfers analog audio into a 3.5mm jack
There's two reasons for that.
First, this was added to the USB-C spec only 2 years ago. That might seem like a long time in "internet years" but it can take time for these changes to gain support by the people making the stuff, and more time still for them to build the machines that will build the cables. Someone is likely making them now, they just haven't got to market yet.
Second, the spec requires that any audio device with a USB-C plug must support digital audio. A cable that supports only analog audio pass-through from a USB-C port to a 1/8" jack is violating the spec. That doesn't mean someone won't make such a cable, and I'm quite certain someone will, they just can't call it a USB-C cable as that would get them in legal trouble from the people that hold the USB trademarks and other intellectual property.
You may ask, why add this analog audio output to the spec if everything that plugs into it must have a DAC? The reason is so that the device with the USB-C port can be far simpler. One such use might be ports next to a seat in a car, bus, or plane. This port can be used for passengers to plug in a headset to hear music or something, or to plug in a cell phone, tablet, or laptop to charge.
Bonus points for being a port that gives audio and power for things like noise canceling headphones, they don't need batteries any more.
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Trademarks only restrict how you talk about it, and if you can use the logo. It doesn't affect what you can build and sell.
So if you plug a Switch into a MacBook Pro ... (Score:4)
... for whatever reason, they decide that the sensible thing [valuewalk.com] would be for the Switch to charge the laptop from its internal battery. Unless the Switch is off, in which case the direction is reversed.
Makes total sense! Especially when the laptop battery is multiples of the handheld battery. And the dependency on the power state of the handheld is totally logical.
I'm not aware of anyone that knows how to configure this in software (on either end) but the default behavior is pretty dang pants if you ask me.
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I remember hearing elsewhere that the order you attach USB-C devices can be used to express which device should get charged. It was a discussion between a laptop and a phone. Even that seems like an easy mistake to make (without LEDs or some other cue). You pack up and your phone is completely dead because it charged up your laptop.
What myths? (Score:2)
If someone had just one device with USB-C ports then half of those myths would be provably false by personal experience. And, who doesn't have a USB-C device today that isn't also Amish? The other half just aren't so much myths but a pleading that things really aren't that bad.
There's two myths I'll lump together, USB-C PD is complicated and expensive. Well it costs pennies more than the old USB connectors and has a more varied levels of voltages and current carrying capability, so it is more expensive a
USB-C? Universal SERIAL bus (Score:3)
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I2C requires two pins: SDA and SCL.
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Re:USB-C? Universal SERIAL bus (Score:4, Informative)
The old DB25 parallel port had just one more than that!
But, to be fair, so did the old RS232 serial interface [wikipedia.org]... :-)
Seriously, you need - at most - 5 pins: Power, Ground, I2C (negotiate what the heck you are), D+ (high speed data line), D- (high speed data line), with the last two being differential
...then the same again if you want bidirectional communications. FWIW, USB-C contains four high-speed differential pairs - which it needs top be able to carry a full DisplayPort or Thunderbolt signal - plus a USB 2.0 pair so that you can at least plug a keyboard and mouse in as well as your display. The result does have e teensy bit more bandwidth than your old Centronics printer cable...
Not that I'm necessarily saying that combining independent functions like power, display and data into a single port is remotely worth the resulting extra complexity on anything bigger than a phone (and phones will probably be going completely wireless in the near future anyway), or that USB-C shouldn't be staked, sprinkled with garlic and poppy seeds and buried at a crossroads alongside those frigging 13-pin DIN video connectors off the Atari ST.
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I think the problem is trying to cram everything into a single port - that's the issue. USB should be for medium/slow speed peripherals. There SHOULD be a separate port for your displays. USB originally was for all the peripherals outside of Ethernet and displays.
It's now trying to become everything, INCLUDING power delivery. And as a result it's starting to fracture and fragment and become unusable - you don't know what level of support your USB C port provides (heck, analog audio over D+/D- is allowe
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I don't care if USB-C supports displays, but I really like that it supports power. Among other reasons, it means that I can plug power into my laptop whichever side is convenient, since there are USB-C ports on both sides, and I only have to carry a single charger for my laptop and phone. I don't even bother carrying an extra cable so I can charge my phone from my laptop while charging the laptop -- though when away from an outlet I do sometimes yank the USB-C/USB-C cable out of the charging brick and use
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I don't care if USB-C supports displays, but I really like that it supports power. [snip] and I only have to carry a single charger for my laptop and phone
I agree that's handy but OTOH if you're on the road with phone & laptop, you'll often need to charge them at the same time (e.g. overnight) and by the time you've packed a multi-port hub to achieve that, you might as well have packed a second charger. Meanwhile, you've always had the option of charging your phone indirectly via your laptop. Also,if you need an emergency replacement charger, although its a bit better now than when certain fruit-branded USB-C only laptops launched, there aren't many th
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I agree that's handy but OTOH if you're on the road with phone & laptop, you'll often need to charge them at the same time (e.g. overnight)
I don't charge my phone overnight. My phone charges from empty to full in about an hour, and runs for better than 24 hours on a full charge, if I let it charge to full. So I just plug it in whenever it's convenient for me, usually a couple of times a day for 15-30 minutes each time. My phone never dies and rarely reaches 100%. Staying away from the extreme empty/full states extends the battery life.
And if you're thinking that means I'm always having to monitor my phone's state of charge, I don't. I r
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Maybe I'm becoming a curmudgeon, but we really need to get display (and, IMHO, Ethernet) off of USB and get it back to "everything but displays, power, and Ethernet".
As a fellow curmudgeon, let me point out that this wouldn't actually help -- you'd still have a situation where some USB connections work and some do not, only now it's the newer USB connections/devices that don't do things that the older ones (sometimes) did.
At this point, all you can do is press on and hope that one day society will agree that USB functionality (whatever it consists of at that time) is officially "good enough" and doesn't need to be extended/changed/complicated any more, and at some later
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It might not actually have more bandwidth than the old printer port, it might just be that the old computers weren't capable of utilizing that much bandwidth.
Don't underestimate how low level a parallel printer port was.
This thing only has a few data channels.
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It might not actually have more bandwidth than the old printer port, it might just be that the old computers weren't capable of utilizing that much bandwidth.
I'm sure you could have driven faster rates through the physical cable - but bear in mind that, by the turn of the century, we were hitting the limits of parallel interfaces and most of the major uses switched to serial because it is (rather counter-intuitively) faster [slashdot.org] (as well as USB, think: ATA to SATA, PCI to PCIe, SCSI to Firewire/SAS).
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I'm sure you could have driven faster rates through the physical cable - but bear in mind that, by the turn of the century, we were hitting the limits of parallel interfaces and most of the major uses switched to serial because...
Absolute nonsense, top to bottom.
Everything the parallel port did used the CPU. Timing multiple conductors meant the computer couldn't do any other work at the same time. The switch to serial was to make the computer faster, not the port. To allow multitasking while using the port. Serial was only faster when the computer was doing something else. That's UART serial. The rest of the things you mention are all done with hardware peripheral support, there is nothing counter-intuitive about that being faster.
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Maybe it's time for a backronym then.
Remember when DVD meant "digital video disc"? Well, I'm guessing people still think it means that. It's a "digital versatile disc" now. It started it's life as a convenient means for the storage and playback of audio and video programming, but when people found it more versatile then they had to think of something that wouldn't confuse everyone. They just kept the same acronym but backfilled it with a different word.
So, what should USB stand for now? "Universal Syst
what i say to people about usb-c (Score:2)
having to use it in the real world USB-c is a confusing mess. Poor quality cables and adaptors abound, and quality does not at all correlate with price. Adaptors require chips inside that overheat and burn out, decreasing overall reliability.
Pins are extremely small and carry power. On devices that are mostly portable. I am surprised that more are not shorting out. The dell docks I have used with them are garbage, constantly needing to be "rebooted" or losing monitor connections randomly.
I would pick a disp
USB-C is dead simple and reliable compared to ... (Score:2)
USB-D when it comes out. I'm guessing a port that is 2mm in diameter, contains 100 micro pins, and supports at least 50 different modes of operation. It will require PKI encryption using registered certificates. And that a basic keyboard controller will require more than a gigabyte of code.
Seriously, one thing that they did seem to miss is the ability to plug in a thumb drive without it being able to instantly take over your computer.
USB-C (Score:2)
Unless you're using a Raspberry Pi 4.
Compliant charger? No power.
Cheap, dumb, dangerous charger? Full power.
Idiotic.
Merkez Ankara daire fiyatlar (Score:1)
Myth #3 and its problems (Score:2)
"3. All Type-C ports have identical functionality."
The fact that the functionality of Type-C ports can vary so widely is one of the worst things about USB-C. Not only can they behave differently, but there is no simple way to tell them apart by looking at them. Nor is there any standardized way for devices to visually indicate the capabilities of their ports. That Type-C jack might support USB 2.0 speeds (480 Mbps), Gen 1 (5 Gbps), Gen 2 (10 Gbps), or Thunderbolt 3 (20 Gbps), might support Power Delivery (w