Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Bug Operating Systems Windows IT Technology

Microsoft's Problem Isn't How Often it Updates Windows -- It's How It Develops It (arstechnica.com) 227

Ever since Microsoft settled on a cadence of two feature updates a year -- one in April, one in October -- the quality of its operating system (taking into consideration the volume of bugs that emerge every few days) has deteriorated, writes Peter Bright of ArsTechnica. From the story: The problem with Windows as a Service is quality. Previous issues with the feature and security updates have already shaken confidence in Microsoft's updating policy for Windows 10. While data is notably lacking, there is at the very least a popular perception that the quality of the monthly security updates has taken a dive with Windows 10 and that installation of the twice-annual feature updates as soon as they're available is madness. These complaints are long-standing, too. The unreliable updates have been a cause for concern since shortly after Windows 10's release.

The latest problem has brought this to a head, with commentators saying that two feature updates a year is too many and Redmond should cut back to one, and that Microsoft needs to stop developing new features and just fix bugs. Some worry that the company is dangerously close to a serious loss of trust over updates, and for some Windows users, that trust may already have been broken. These are not the first calls for Microsoft to slow down with its feature updates -- there have been concerns that there's too much churn for both IT and consumer audiences alike to handle -- but with the obvious problems of the latest update, the calls take on a new urgency.

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Microsoft's Problem Isn't How Often it Updates Windows -- It's How It Develops It

Comments Filter:
  • by b0s0z0ku ( 752509 ) on Monday October 22, 2018 @11:47AM (#57517965)

    Imagine owning a car. One fine morning, you wake up and the steering wheel has been moved from left to right, and the brake pedal is on the ceiling. You call up the manufacturer, ask "why'd you do that."

    Answer: "it's better, you'll get used to be new driver experience."

    • by Luthair ( 847766 )
      Funny you should bring up the car..... but there have been significant problems, including deaths [wikipedia.org] caused by car manufacturers mucking with how the gear lever works.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by thegarbz ( 1787294 )

      Sensationalist FUD much? Microsoft has never updated Windows 10 with such a jarring UI change. The Windows 10 steering wheel is where it has always been, as is every other fundamental control you need to use the OS.

      A more accurate description would be owning a car and waking up to find the air-conditioning controls now have a few different control options, oh and as part of that it set itself back from Celsius to Fahrenheit, also additional prompts now come up with different alarms while driving. Maybe the

      • I want regular 'ol analog gauges for the important things and buttons that can be used with gloves on for the HVAC. No touch-screen crap everywhere polluting my interior.
      • I'm surprised it took me this long to find the MS apologist, but ladies and gentlemen, here he is.

        Actually, the reality is that MS has goobered up the UI to the point that people don't even want to use it.
        For how bad you could say the start button was, the current W10 interface is a total POS in comparison.
        And guess what, everyone knows it.
        Only some will admit it.
        • I'm surprised it took me this long to find the MS apologist, but ladies and gentlemen, here he is.

          I'm keen to hear why I am wrong. In what fundamental way has Microsoft changed the Windows 10 UI between versions? By the way I don't apologise for MS. I simply call out bullshit when I see it. You're welcome to scroll down the threads and see some of my other posts where I'm critical of MS and the Windows 10 updates.

          Actually, the reality is that MS has goobered up the UI to the point that people don't even want to use it.

          Back in real reality: People don't give a shit. Even more in reality, nothing has fundamentally changed for people. The only major changes for users has been the Control Panel (something rarely

      • Well first, some of how you judge Microsoft's changes depends on when you're measuring from. The UI was *relatively* stable from Windows 95 until Windows 7, but even then, ignoring the re-skinning, they regularly shuffled settings around. I don't remember great examples, but the start menu organization changed now and then, and where a setting was in the control panel changed. You could argue that the changes were good, but still, it's a change.

        The switch to Windows 8 was pretty much, "The steering whee

        • You could argue that the changes were good, but still, it's a change.

          I didn't say there was no changes. I said the fundamental interaction remains unchanged. And yes I was specifically talking about changes to Windows 10 given that the GP was talking about waking up to find changes which systems prior to Windows 10 didn't do.

          If you were used to Windows XP and you then sat down at a Windows 7 machine, a lot of things would have moved around, which would be confusing.

          The details of using something vs its fundamentals are different things. The GP referenced steering wheel, breaks, and accelerator. He didn't mention locating the fuse box, or identifying warning lights or anything like that which I would agree then woul

          • I didn't say there was no changes. I said the fundamental interaction remains unchanged. And yes I was specifically talking about changes to Windows 10 given that the GP was talking about waking up to find changes which systems prior to Windows 10 didn't do.

            That post doesn't mention Windows 10. In fact, it's paraphrasing an old post that I've seen a bunch of times on Slashdot and other sites, definitely dating back to before Windows 10.

            The details of using something vs its fundamentals are different things.

            You say it's just details, but then you go on to show how the behavior of the start menu-- the single biggest UI element of the Windows desktop environment-- has changed. If it's not moving the gas pedal to the ceiling, it's changing the layout of the gear shift. And though I'd agree that most people don't deal with most of t

      • by rtb61 ( 674572 )

        So M$ Windows anal probe 10 as a car. Well it monitors everywhere you go and reports back to the manufacturer. It install new passengers and removes them at will. It gathers and sells information about you, where you are going and what passenger you have. It will stop on the road at random intervals, not giving one fuck about where you are and how safe it is, and install new features or remove old ones, they might not work, bringing the car to a stop until you take it to the mechanics to reinstall everythin

    • https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

      This explains everything. The agency obviously rents out bug testers and n managers to companies like Microsoft.

    • by thomn8r ( 635504 )
      If they had "courage" they would remove the steering wheel.
    • Tesla owners are complaining about this very thing right now. The much lauded version 9.0 software update they're pushing out to Teslas right now rethinks the whole UI. Model S owners can no longer pick any two application to split on the top and bottom halves of their screens. Instead, Tesla decided the navigation window should always be present, with anything else you might want to see on a toolbar along the bottom that lets you pick one to slide up, overlaying the bottom portion of the nav screen.

      So effe

  • by Penguinisto ( 415985 ) on Monday October 22, 2018 @11:49AM (#57517989) Journal

    My biggest bugaboo is that Windows updates obliterates the CUDA-enabled nVidia video driver I have installed on the laptop, and replaces it with the craptastic non-CUDA Microsoft WHQL driver... which is why I have the whole thing disabled as deep in the registry as humanly possible.

    Would it kill Microsoft to look for 3rd-party drivers before stomping all over shit with their own versions? I mean, if it weren't for a few CG apps (and the lack of a decent nVidia GPU in the latest MacBook Pros), I wouldn't care, but damn...

    • Would it kill Microsoft to look for 3rd-party drivers before stomping all over shit with their own versions?

      That's not the issue. The third party drivers published to Windows Update should be the same as the vendor actually ships. Windows won't automatically overwrite a driver unless there's a new version or a WHQL version of the existing driver... and you can disable the touching of drivers in windows (it's under System, not under the Update Settings).

      Normally I would say the manufacturer fouled something up, but in this specific update there were a LOT of problems relating to drivers even before the file deleti

    • You're not getting it. Microsoft believes that it owns your computer, not you, and that that's right and good and the natural order of things. You're just a silly child, irresponsible and irrational, and what you want is not relevant; they see themselves as the parent in this scenario. It may sound like I'm spinning conspiracy theories but functionally speaking what I'm saying is accurate. Microsoft doesn't want you being the administrator of your own personal computer, they feel they're the only ones quali
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Go backup the older days of SP's also windows server is a bit slower but 2016 really needs an SP or update roll-up to fix the long updates.

  • by DutchUncle ( 826473 ) on Monday October 22, 2018 @11:58AM (#57518067)
    Anyone I know who uses Windows does all they can to prevent updates, including - perhaps especially - IT departments. For some strange reason, it only takes one time of the CEO having his computer go into a forced update in the middle of a presentation to lenders, and policy changes REAL fast.
  • So what? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by nagora ( 177841 ) on Monday October 22, 2018 @12:01PM (#57518097)

    If Microsoft Windows was only bought based on its quality and reliability there wouldn't have been a Windows 3, and if there had then ME would have killed it off, and of not then Vista would have, and if not then Windows 10... and so it goes one. Windows has never really been ready for the desktop - it's still unbearably bad/slow at even simple file handling.

    Microsoft have zero incentive to do things better because the market never punishes them for their mistakes. They just shrug their shoulders and carry on regardless.

    • and if not then Windows 10... and so it goes one.

      To be fair to the complaints, Windows 10 is the second flop in a row. That IS a first for Microsoft.

      it's still unbearably bad/slow at even simple file handling.

      File handling itself is fine. The way information about files is aggregated and displayed to users is what is frustrating. e.g. File save dialogues which have custom sorting for a folder and have thumbnails enabled load the thumbnail cache before sorting. That is truly frigging dumb. It's not that file handling is slow, it's that Windows does stuff not relevant for the user at odd times.

      • by nagora ( 177841 )

        File handling itself is fine. The way information about files is aggregated and displayed to users is what is frustrating. e.g. File save dialogues which have custom sorting for a folder and have thumbnails enabled load the thumbnail cache before sorting. That is truly frigging dumb. It's not that file handling is slow, it's that Windows does stuff not relevant for the user at odd times.

        Even if that was the whole of it, it's pretty cold comfort. But my experience of copying large (60GB+) files from a backup drive to the internal drive with Windows 10 is that it simply can't do it and always crashes at some point in the process. Perhaps it's a USB subsystem issue but in any case it's ridiculous.

  • by Shadow of Eternity ( 795165 ) on Monday October 22, 2018 @12:02PM (#57518111)

    "Fuck you, who else are you going to go to?"

  • by Dwedit ( 232252 ) on Monday October 22, 2018 @12:15PM (#57518227) Homepage

    There actually is a problem with how it updates it. You see, Windows was designed to emit a two-byte NOP at the beginning of every function, just so it could be hotpatched to redirect to a longer jump instruction. This mechanism would allow reboot-free updating of core system files.

    I don't see any reboot-free updating of core system files here.

    • Well, honestly, trying to trace out all the file locks and kernel locks is too hard for them without making the system unstable by accident, so yeah. They went with the tried and true rebooting.

      It is disgusting to me that they don't have enough technical knowledge to fully understand the shit they are selling to everyone... but here you have it. It is what it is: A steaming pile of crap.

  • Microsoft's Problem Isn't How Often It Updates Windows -- It 's How It Develops It

    Works much better like this:

    Its Problem Isn't How Often It Updates It -- It's How It Develops It

    • I'm noticing some similarities to that other "IT" from the movies:
      1 - Both IT's have a crazy clown interface
      2 - Both IT's make the townspeople lives miserable (although in fairness, only one of them loses your data)
  • New *features* sells software. Bug fixes don't.

    Microsoft will keep churning out crud. Same shit. Different day. That same old 90s era C++ "we know better than you" attitude is still very much in evidence.

    • That's often true, but not in this case. Nobody "buys" windows for features, they get it because it came installed on their computer and that's what they need to run their software. No one's going to switch from Mac or Linux because File Explorer offers dark mode.

      But yeah, features are exciting and bug fixes are boring, so the suits want new features to brag about in their Powerpoints. Honestly, there's no reason MS can't do both. They're a huge company, they should be able to fix bugs and develop fea
  • It will all be fixed in Windows 12.

  • "Fix bugs" (Score:5, Insightful)

    by tambo ( 310170 ) on Monday October 22, 2018 @12:42PM (#57518391)

    "Microsoft needs to stop developing new features and just fix bugs."

    Generally true, but what does Microsoft do about core features that are so intensely buggy that they are literally unsalvageable?

    • The Windows registry is a dumpster fire.
    • The Windows role-based security model is an unmitigated headache.
    • App compatibility is so bad that Windows still has a "Program Files" folder and a "Program Files (x86)" folder.
    • Windows Help has been beyond useless for the entire lifespan of Windows. It's so bad that people resort to MSDN, which is also beyond useless.
    • by Luthair ( 847766 )

      App compatibility is so bad that Windows still has a "Program Files" folder and a "Program Files (x86)" folder.

      What are you even complaining about here? That Microsoft supports customers instead of shitting on them?

    • by Bert64 ( 520050 )

      Once they get customers switched over to monthly subscriptions, then they might start fixing bugs... Until then, they need to introduce new features to encourage upgrades.

      However it's more likely that they would just stop adding new features, and still not bother fixing bugs.

  • by Tablizer ( 95088 ) on Monday October 22, 2018 @12:53PM (#57518467) Journal

    with commentators saying that two feature updates a year is too many and Redmond should cut back to one, and that Microsoft needs to stop developing new features and just fix bugs.

    My observation is that M$ is experimenting with either different ways to spam Windows users, and/or looking for ways to force them into their cloud/store to (hopefully) rent or buy services through it. This is probably the main reason for changes.

    I get "Windows notifications" of new or upgraded services offered by M$. The pretty login screens sometimes show vacation spots that M$ appears to be sponsoring*. (I must admit, I have clicked out of curiosity after seeing some nice photo. I fed the troll, and had to shower afterward.) And MS-Paint has a notice toolbar icon that the app will be moving to the cloud soon with a link to their store. The app may be free (now), but they can get you into their store to shop around if they move their usual Windows goodies up there.

    They look at Google App Store and Apple Store as their future revenue growth, not selling OS's. The OS is to become their ad and MS-cloud tie-in platform. Linux-based OS's are slowly nipping at their OS cash cow, and they are scrambling for alternative revenue. They lost the phone and tablet OS wars, and consumers and small biz are slowly but increasingly shifting to Android and arguably Apple for desktop replacements or alternatives. New users only use M$ for compatibility, not because they want to. M$ is being pushed to be the new IBM, and Google is the new M$, but M$ won't go quietly, since they see how IBM is struggling to remain relevant. (IBM's A.I. ads have desperate PHB written all over them.)

    Cloud is their only recent success story; thus, they're hellbent in turning Windows into an MS-cloud portal. I'd do the same if I were a greedy MS executive trying to leverage the co's only success.

    * To be fair, I haven't found a direct tie yet, but some appear very suspicious. I should turn off the login wallpaper, but have to admit they supply some cool pics if you use the tuning feature to see what you like.

    • They look at Google App Store and Apple Store as their future revenue growth, not selling OS's.

      Not so, they see the App store as a revenue source, but the plan is to turn Windows into a monthly service cost in 2020 just like Office 365 you'll have to pay every month to use windows. This has been in the plans for 5+ years now and it's why Windows 10 was "free". Free in the sense that you gave away all commerical rights to a paid for copy and agreed to pay for the SAAS version of windows when it rolls out as an update to Windows 10.

      Honestly if you aren't aware this is the plan you've not been paying at

  • by MerlinTheWizard ( 824941 ) on Monday October 22, 2018 @01:12PM (#57518631)

    Despite regular bold statements that agile methods have improved everything, experience shows that it has mostly degraded software quality and consistency and only improved short-term revenue for software companies.

    Regarding Windows, this has gone downhill so much that it defies good sense. It actually used to be a pretty decent platform (at least starting with Windows NT 4 and Windows 2000), very consistent. Starting with Windows 8, it started degrading. You just have to remember their main strategy was to push forward Windows on mobile platforms. They failed spectacularly with the mobile market, yet they kept insisting with all the same methods. Windows 10 is essentially the result of a strategic failure, which is incidentally consistent with agile methods, as those basically promote no long-term vision or strategy and only focus on short-term makeshift jobs, AKA "new features".

    • Windows 10 is essentially the result of a strategic failure,

      No, windows 10 is the result Microsoft seeing the mad profits of the last 20 years of software theft (aka taking control of the software) by the videogame industry (aka Ultima RPG's during the 90's become mmo's and profits explode, world of warcraft, overwatch with lootboxes and microtransactions, etc) and walled garden software model pioneered by smartphones, the videogame industry for the last 20 years has been at the forefront of wanting to get rid of software ownership and take control of the end users

    • by Luthair ( 847766 )
      I think you're confused, agile doesn't say anything about when software should be released. Its about taking on bite-sized chunks instead of trying to tackle the entire universe at once. Continuous delivery is likely the source of your complaint as its about pushing shit out the door frequently which makes it a lot more difficult to do in-depth testing due to time constraints.
    • Hm. Vista was slow because of the DRM in the kernel. Windows 7 was faster because they figured out how to not make the DRM such a resource hog, but Windows 7 was just as anti-consumer as Vista.

      Starting with Windows 8, it started degrading.

      I would say it became unpalatable around Windows 8. It was already degrading before that. Windows 10 is just a "what the fuck is this shit?! I will never submit to it." step in the wrong direction.

    • This still feels like Microsoft are using the same development model under the hood. Go through a burst of writing new features, trying to get them into trunk before "feature freeze", not caring that they are fundamentally broken. Then go through a bug fixing phase before release. The difference is the timing of each development cycle.

      They migrated to git internally, but their code base is so large that they had to write a virtual filesystem driver so developers could work on the code without cloning the h

  • Exactly when was Microsoft Windows a high quality Operating System?

    After 32 years, it's still barely usable, completely unstable, full of security holes. I run approx 300 servers and zero of them run Windows, across all the desktops I manage, only three of them run it, because of a crappy software that some clients require. It's fair to say that Microsoft Windows is a usable, some what functional OS, that can solve simple problems, but past that, forget about it.
    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Indeed. Windows is and has always been a toy. For a toy, the quality would be reasonable, bit for something you need to be able to depend on, it is a bad joke.

  • The only new feature they need to implement in Windows 10 is the one that unfucks the UI and reverts to Windows 7.

    Other useful features would involve removing the dire windows store, UWP apps, the new settings bullshit and reverting to control panel.

  • Software engineers and business analysts may love it, but when you're updating stuff too often, it becomes a mighty headache to the end user. MS is simply too big to go this way with Windows....you can't update a billion devices 2x a year without something breaking.
  • by farble1670 ( 803356 ) on Monday October 22, 2018 @02:56PM (#57519247)

    Wait, we have this clickbait title:

    Microsoft’s problem isn’t how often it updates Windows—it’s how it develops it

    but this buried in the article:

    Microsoft hasn't exactly revealed the development process being used with Windows 10

    Explanation: barely tech literate clickbait writer for Ars Technica imagines they have a clue about how software development works at Microsoft. Argue all you want about the quality of windows, but don't try to pretend you have some understanding about software development and how it's gone wrong in Redmond.

  • by antdude ( 79039 )

    MS axed its QA years ago too. :(

  • Not a single day goes by without me regretting installing Windows 10.
    Stop adding new shit, fix the bugs and let the system be stable and then leave me alone!

    Every time all my documents, that I use as reference material for something I am writing, is closed and windows forcibly rebooted I feel violated. Can I sue for psychological trauma?

    Every time the "pay per startup", (very expensive), application I use is shut down for a reboot it cost money. Can I sue for that money back?
  • They never had it and they will never get it.

Truly simple systems... require infinite testing. -- Norman Augustine

Working...