Ask Slashdot: Is There a 'Gig Economy' Site For Tech Skills? 119
"Where I can meet up with people who just need solutions implemented?" asks a Slashdot reader:
Somewhere people can go when they have a solution designed in-house with documented requirements and are in need of a competent engineer(s) to assist with implementation. Where timelines and price estimates and rates are well defined and enforced. If they like me, and agree to the terms, we can proceed with the project -- expecting solid deliveries at each milestone....
I have been on some gig projects where the relationship was well structured by a third party and it was a lot of fun. I know a lot of engineers who would use a system like this if it streamlines entering the freelance tech market for them. People who would rarely take gigs otherwise. I have looked around but the services feel dead. I have been approached by startups in the past wanting to sign me up their service...but they didn't really go anywhere.
The original submission complains that many projects end up going to consulting firms that just scrounge up candidates from job boards. But what's the alternative? "Am I missing some great online community or website that has already solved this?"
Leave your own thoughts in the comments. Is there a 'gig economy' site for tech skills?
I have been on some gig projects where the relationship was well structured by a third party and it was a lot of fun. I know a lot of engineers who would use a system like this if it streamlines entering the freelance tech market for them. People who would rarely take gigs otherwise. I have looked around but the services feel dead. I have been approached by startups in the past wanting to sign me up their service...but they didn't really go anywhere.
The original submission complains that many projects end up going to consulting firms that just scrounge up candidates from job boards. But what's the alternative? "Am I missing some great online community or website that has already solved this?"
Leave your own thoughts in the comments. Is there a 'gig economy' site for tech skills?
There have been many (Score:5, Informative)
Re:There have been many - why did they die? (Score:3)
Re: (Score:1)
I think you just answered your own question.
Re: (Score:3)
If you accept "if p, then q" you can conclude "if not q, then not p".
Applying that to the original quote results "The sites are not flourishing, thus the cheap people were not competent." I think that this is exactly what the poster meant to imply.
What you're quipping is correct, but irrelevant.
Re: There have been many - why did they die? (Score:2)
It's not really about cost savings. It's about destroying the middle class.
Re: There have been many - why did they die? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Because many were fraud sites with fake projects, charging $5 a year or even per month to be registered there.
Requests to cancel 'subscriptions' got ignored, I had to involve my credit card company to get reimbursed.
I guess after enough such cases the CC companies put pressure enough on them to get them closed.
Re: (Score:2)
Or, to be profitable they used industry averages in their predictions, and then they drive the prices down in their own market segment so they can't make what they need, even when they have the number of users and contracts that they predicted.
Re: There have been many - why did they die? (Score:2)
For the same reason cheap A/V gear from China has practically destroyed the market for what USED to be the "sane" mid-high end... gear by companies like Denon, Matsushita/Panasonic/Technics, Pioneer, etc. In the 80s, "good" stuff wasn't insanely more expensive than "shit" stuff, and sounded a LOT better. Now, "shit" stuff is almost free, but "good" stuff is WAY more expensive... and the quality differences themselves are a lot harder to objectively quantify (digital electronics are good at hiding scores of
Re: (Score:2)
If those cheap people are competent, then it should work out fine, and the sites should flourish. It sounds like they all died. why?
They aren't. The people buying the work aren't competent, either. I wrote some articles for someone through Upwork, fulfilled the requirements, and they were less than happy with the results but weren't willing to pay enough for better. They wanted 100% English fluency, but were only willing to pay enough to get a foreigner — and not one with excellent English skills, either. That person could make a lot more doing something else with those skills, like translation. Most people going to Upwork to get
Re: (Score:2)
There have been many. What happens is they get flooded with people from 3rd world countries, willing to do the work for pennies an hour.
Republicans should LOVE this, as they're always crowing about how the "free market" is so great.
I mean, the president himself has famously said that "wages are too high [youtube.com]". He couldn't possibly be wrong, could he?
Re: (Score:3)
Ok, full disclosure... not a republican but a big fan of free-market.
yes, this is actually just fine and yes I am a Systems Engineer that has more than a decade of infrastructure experience and can code in several languages to varying degrees, though I am by no means an expert in coding, however, I am an expert in infrastructure.
If I bid on a job and they tried to undercut me with a 3rd world labor I would just tell them good luck and wish them well. When they come back with a failed 3rd world job, I will
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
At which point, they will go whining to the government that there are no workers willing to work for $1/hour, and demand that they be allowed to import labor from elsewhere.
Guess what? The government actually listens to the corporations and they get their cheap labor. Then the corporations go around pointing at all of the imported labor and say see there's people here willing to work for $1/hour and if you want a job
Re: (Score:2)
Sure there is a gig economy for those with tech skills but the government tend to call those activities computer crimes but hey if it was a freemarket, it should no be illegal. What is legal and what is a crime tends to be defined by those who used crime to achieve the point where they could write laws to keep what they have stolen before closing that chance behind them but why should we allow that, they stole it, then claimed we can't steal it, why do they get to choose the point where it was legal and now
Re:There have been many (Score:5, Informative)
I use Upwork [upwork.com] (formerly oDesk). I've hired domestic and foreign contract engineering labor. For a server I needed setup and configured, I hired a guy in Vietnam and for $18/hour (and 5 hours) he had it doing everything I needed. Hired a guy in India to do some custom CSS work for me, for $80. Hired a Ph.D. applied math/physics professor in Russia for some advanced 3D FEA modeling software - he was $35 an hour, but great quality C code from him. Hired several electrical/RF engineers here in the US to do some spot PCB/schematic/RF design work when my team was overloaded. All were between $50-$80/hour.
All turned out really well, did what I needed and when I needed it, and at a price that was reasonable. Having a US IT guy quote $2500 to set up a Windows server with SVN, Wiki, and a few other features was crazy, but I didn't have the time to do it myself. Having a guy in Vietnam do it for $100 was exactly what I needed. And finding a Ph.D. professor with a background in applied math and physics was essentially a needle in a haystack - I got lucky, the fact he was $35/hour was insane (I would have gladly paid 3X that amount). Currently using an MSEE to solve a hairy GSM noise issue on a PCB, and he's worth it at $80/hour.
Moral of the story: if you're doing basic, simple work - you're not going to be able to compete with overseas where there are millions of people who can do basic, simple work for a lot cheaper than you. If you're doing more complex, advanced things, you can most likely charge a lot more and still get work...
Re: There have been many (Score:2)
A lot compared to what? Even $50/hour is barely enough to hire mid-level engineers performing relatively straightforward work in CA. Once you're talking about Americans or Europeans with special skills, you're unlikely to find much even at that price point.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
So basically you got some really cheap labour... Even the guys in the US were working for a fraction of the normal contracting rate (I'd charge multiples of that for EE CAD work).
I wonder how much work they get. Presumably not anything like 40 hours a week if they have to go that low.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:There have been many (Score:5, Interesting)
Wow. They got people on there (this fucking upwork place) claiming to be able to do what I do for $10 an hour. Right in the U.S. WTF happened to 4% unemployment!? The future's so dark, I gotta wear a headlamp. Retirement can't come soon enough, hope I can make it. Good luck to the younger folks, the lowest common denominator, as in wages, is what seems to be coming.
Re:There have been many (Score:4, Informative)
A lot of those are going to be new users who are bidding low for promotional reasons because without reviews it is hard to win bids.
Re: (Score:2)
The future's so dark, I gotta wear a headlamp. Retirement can't come soon enough, hope I can make it. Good luck to the younger folks, the lowest common denominator, as in wages, is what seems to be coming.
This is my prediction too. There is nothing you can do that some person from 3rd world used to $10/day can't do. Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers etc are just skills and experience that are transferable, so we are doomed. I got about 10 years to go before retirement but I don't think I'm going to make it
Re: (Score:2)
If you're doing more complex, advanced things, you can most likely charge a lot more and still get work...
Such as? India produces more PhD's every year than we have PhD's. No matter how complex, there is someone is Asia is who probably more qualified and a lot cheaper. The best you can go for a a job that requires a local language and accent and bit of personality. This the hardest hurdle for foreigners to get over.
Re: (Score:2)
Considering that there are no third world countries anymore, and Vietnam most certainly is none, why would one work for $1/h on a gig, when he gets as employee $5/h?
Re: (Score:2)
Considering that there are no third world countries anymore,
The term '3rd world' is no longer widely used, but the term refers to what we now call 'the developing world' which includes places like Vietnam, India, Brazil and soon to be USA :)
Re: (Score:2)
Developing world is more "second world" than "third", but actually US might drop below that level. Many areas are already. A friend of mine was in the capital of Ohio, Columbus, a bout 2 years ago. He only told shocking examples of poverty and unemployment.
I mean in Thailand e.g. many people live a simple live (was not in Vietnam or Laos yet, but that is next): but they are strictly speaking not poor. They have land, they live in their own house, they have enough food, medical infrastructure is like around
Re: (Score:2)
But from all what you hear from the US, remote areas only have one thing better than a remote are in India: a better road connection. But: in India they have the faster wireless internet :D and paying systems.
Trajectory is just as important (if not more so) than position. An Asian family earning $10/day is happy because every day life is getting better, whereas your poor rural westerner is earning 10x as much but losing ground every day.
Re: There have been many (Score:2)
Ohio and the other Rustbelt states have been in deep economic depression for several decades. Infrastructure is collapsing, the factories were literally packed up and mailed to China, unemployment is far higher than the "imaginative" official numbers, police oppression is steadily increasing, and the youth have no opportunities. A pall of hopelessness hangs over the magnificent industrial ruins.
Of course any reporter who mentioned that on TV or a mass market news site would be immediately fired, and maybe
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
I did this after the "dot com bust," and I found that even if I bid below minimum wage, the Indians would outbid me every time.
I guess it is the same with taxi drivers these days, except it is locals outbidding them.
Re: (Score:2)
There have been many. What happens is they get flooded with people from 3rd world countries, willing to do the work for pennies an hour. If you want to work as a "gigger" for tech stuff, then you'll be competing against people from Vietnam willing to do the same fork for $1/hour.
For some things, but not all. . . I edit warble-garble text into correct English, which no $1/hr person is likely to be capable of.
I use FlexJobs.com, which vets the companies that list jobs to avoid the above-listed problem, and for other good reasons.
Re: (Score:1)
I hadn't heard of "flexjobs.com", so thank you. I like the sine wave logo- it beckons me. :)
Have you tried Ask Slashdot? (Score:2)
Somewhere people can go when they have a solution designed in-house with documented requirements and are in need of a competent engineer(s) to assist with implementation. Where timelines and price estimates and rates are well defined and enforced. If they like me, and agree to the terms, we can proceed with the project -- expecting solid deliveries at each milestone....
Have you tried Ask Slashdot? Could you give it a shot and report back on how it works out for you?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Who cares if you get paid. Free market and all that. Just move from one mark... err ummm ... I mean customer to another. That the American way.
Upwork (Score:5, Informative)
I earn $2k - $3k a month working on jobs brokered via Upwork. This goes nicely with my main work I get locally. I've in the UK but work on projects in the US and India currently. I recommend it though you do have to be selective on who you work for. There are a lot kids looking for their homework to be done and others that are completely unrealistic on what budget is required for the job. Upwork charge 10% + $50 per customer which is reasonable I think especially as they guarantee payment.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
How many hours a week do you work between your day job and Upwork?
I'm kinda sad to see working two jobs becoming more normal in the UK. Presumably you keep the main job because Upwork full time is a bad idea.
Re: (Score:2)
I started out at the very top of what other people were offering. I've now increased it further by another 50% (because I don't need the work) and I still get the same number of enquiries.
I had one customer ask why I should go with me rather than the person who was quoting 10% of what I had. I obviously said the right things as he went with me. I wouldn't worry about people who low ball quotes, the good clients can see that it isn't worth the time / effort using them.
Re: (Score:2)
It changes a lot from month to month but roughly 50:50.
I could do all Upwork but prefer local and the pay is a little better though there isn't a lot in it.
Re: (Score:2)
I say it probably happened because of Brexit - the amount of uncertainty it's caused (remember, it takes effect next year) has caused a LOT of companies to retrench and re-evaluate. A number of UK companies are opening offices on the EU mainland in order to continue getting EU work, and many EU compani
Re: (Score:2)
At the moment the UK is in a strange, unreal world where truth doesn't exist. As such politics are very much fucked.
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
So you're saying you poorly specified your needs, and then when you stamped your feet and demanded the foreign worker just redo all the work and make something different than you specified, you were ruled against?
Yeah, you're the real reason that so little tech work gets done in the "gig economy" style; tiny little miniature clients strut around like they're some kind of hot shit, and then try to refuse to pay.
Re: Upwork (Score:2)
Hahahahahahahaha! Sucks to be you, brohamley.
Legwork and knowing the right people... (Score:4, Informative)
The best gigs are found the old-fashioned way, word of mouth...
(1) Do I.T. for small/middle sized businesses on a freelance basis. This gets you connections to do more interesting jobs -- custom app development, databases, etc.
(2) Stay connected to a local university, either by taking classes or teaching as an adjunct. Lots of grad students who want to be the next best startup.
Re: (Score:2)
The most fun and money I was making in tech was as a 1099 freelancer. But I had to convert due to health care costs.
Rent-a-Coder (Score:4, Informative)
I'm not sure what you're asking, but do you mean places like Freelancer [slashdot.org] (which ate up vWork, which used to be called Rent a Coder)?
If that's what you mean, I don't know many sites like that anymore, and the projects they post are just crap for some reason unknown to me. And you have to compete with 3rd world developers in cost (rather than quality) on those crappy projects too.
Best thing as far as I can tell is getting your recruiter to find you term-limited contracts that suit you.
Re: (Score:2)
Oh hey, pasted the wrong link, but I think you can find Rent a Coder on Google :)
Re: (Score:2)
I kept getting undercut at that site and when I finished one contract to spec the customer tried to weasel out of it by forcing inspected scope creep on me. In the latter case I got my money but I have never gone back.
Requirements frequently *are* the gig (Score:5, Informative)
...when they have a solution designed in-house with documented requirements... ...Where timelines and price estimates and rates are well defined and enforced.
An issue is that for smaller gigs that would make use of such a service, the requirements are not known or at least not formally known enough to the point where an enforceable timeline could exist. In software development, the hard part is always figuring out what to do, the actual coding is usually easy. It is common to not really know what you need to do until you start doing it (figure it out as you go along). In fact the whole Agile methodology is based on merging requirements gathering with development in an iterative cycle, with an unknown number of cycles necessary to get to what is a "finished" product.
Because of this most companies that (competently) do solutions in house will have both the designers and the developers on staff, those that don't will hire consulting firms to manage the design and deliveyr processes. I doubt either would would want to grab random folks off a job board for temporary work.
Smaller businesses that don't have dedicated IT or consulting firms are unlikely to have the skills to write formal requirements.
Re: (Score:2)
Because of this most companies that (competently) do solutions in house will have both the designers and the developers on staff
And the relationship between the designers/developers and the customer isn't tightly controlled by a contract. I can sit down with the end user and ask, "What do you really need?" In fact, I can join the user's group and work as a kind of intern to discover how they actually do their jobs. Try this with an outside software firm and everything has to be billed, documented and is susceptible to change orders and contract revisions.
I've done some development my self (as an EE) where it was easier to teach mys
Re: (Score:3)
businesses that don't have dedicated IT or consulting firms are unlikely to have the skills to write formal requirements.
Not only that, but they probably don't understand what it takes to write good requirements document and will balk at the cost of developing one. Add in they probably expect to get thousands of dollars of work for pennies on the dollar and you have a prescription for disaster. As a result, what they get is not what they expect and they are not happy.
Some tech skills are absorbed by bundled services (Score:2)
I've found that some of the skills are absorbed by bundled services for small businesses. For example my friend who is a masseuse is basically a 1 person business. In the past she might have had to hire multiple people for small jobs: A receptionist/admin assistant to book and confirm appointments , a web developer to manage her site, advertising/marketing person, and an accountant/cashier to handle the books. The problem is she should only need these jobs filled for a few hours a week maybe. So she uses Sq
Re: Some tech skills are absorbed by bundled serv (Score:2)
Signal-to-noise ratio, transaction costs (Score:4, Insightful)
Lots of unrealistic projects with terrible specifications meets barely literate lowest-bid outsourcing, what could possibly go right? I just looked through a few projects, it's not worth my time even trying to find a reasonable project proposal. And if there was one, would they find me in the pile of junk responses they get? No. And if you get ripped off one way or the other, you'll be stuck in a dispute resolution process on your own dime. Basically if you find someone qualified it's a huge advantage to just use them again. That's not a gig economy, that's a market for temp workers. The initial work should basically just be risk money to test them out before you offer a real contract. And in most cases I'd switch from a fixed price to hourly rate for any decent developer, unless the scope is very specific.
If you're this desperate to be taken advantage of (Score:1, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Only if you apply enough lube.
Oh you sweet summer child... (Score:5, Insightful)
... what you ask for doesn't even exist in established companies.
People are dumb, don't know what they want, don't appreciate it when you build it for them, and don't want to pay. This is almost universal.
Re: (Score:2)
People are dumb, don't know what they want, don't appreciate it when you build it for them, and don't want to pay. This is almost universal.
This is my experience too, which is why these sites aren't good for much more that small one-off jobs
Unrealistic expectations of IT projects ahoy (Score:2)
Good luck with that
Set up your company with its own website (Score:4, Interesting)
Set up your own company, create a website listing your past projects (presumably successful) and blog. Write magazine articles.
Local businesses (Score:2)
... oh and learn to do something other than just tech, it opens your perspective quite a bit, and allows you to understand problems much better (and vice-versa for non-techies!).
If you can be empathetic with your customers, they'll contact you for anything and everything, and have no problem paying your price, as long as you're reasonable and do quality work. Don't gouge, and understand that the costs you give them come off of their bottom line, same as yours if you need stuff done. Understand that, and so
Pipe Dream (Score:2)
The OP is asking for a top notch project team who only needs someone to help with implementation. I've been doing IT for 20 years at this point and my experience has been that well scoped, managed and executed projects are the exception to the rule. More often than not there is at least some, if not major amounts of "making it up as we go" taking place.
Any team that is competent enough to lay the groundwork already has people lined up to do the implementation.
Upwork.com? (Score:1)
Is Upwork.com not good?
Re: (Score:1)
At least Upwork.com has location verification.