Become a fan of Slashdot on Facebook

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
Security Government

New Tech Industry Lobbying Group Argues 'Right to Repair' Laws Endanger Consumers (securityledger.com) 146

chicksdaddy brings this report from Security Ledger: The Security Innovation Center, with backing of powerful tech industry groups, is arguing that letting consumers fix their own devices will empower hackers. The group released a survey last week warning of possible privacy and security risks should consumers have the right to repair their own devices. It counts powerful electronics and software industry organizations like CompTIA, CTIA, TechNet and the Consumer Technology Association as members... In an interview with The Security Ledger, Josh Zecher, the Executive Director of The Security Innovation Center, acknowledged that Security Innovation Center's main purpose is to push back on efforts to pass right to repair laws in the states.

He said the group thinks such measures are dangerous, citing the "power of connected products and devices" and the fact that they are often connected to each other and to the Internet via wireless networks. Zecher said that allowing device owners or independent repair professionals to service smart home devices and connected appliances could expose consumer data to hackers or identity thieves... Asked whether Security Innovation Center was opposed to consumers having the right to repair devices they purchased and owned, Zecher said the group did oppose that right on the grounds of security, privacy and safety... "People say 'It's just my washing machine. Why can't I fix it on my own?' But we saw the Mirai botnet attack last year... Those kinds of products in the wrong hands can be used to do bad things."

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

New Tech Industry Lobbying Group Argues 'Right to Repair' Laws Endanger Consumers

Comments Filter:
  • by Anonymous Coward

    The IT world needs your commentary, Mr. Stallman.

    • The IT world needs your commentary, Mr. Stallman.

      Give him some time. He needs to wait for his cron job to finish. He surfs the internet as follows: [stallman.org]

      "I usually fetch web pages from other sites by sending mail to a program (see https://git.savannah.gnu.org/g... [gnu.org]) that fetches them, much like wget, and then mails them back to me. Then I look at them using a web browser, unless it is easy to see the text in the HTML page directly. I usually try lynx first, then a graphical browser if the page needs it (using konqueror, which won't fetch from other sites in such

  • by Zamphatta ( 1760346 ) on Saturday February 24, 2018 @08:12PM (#56182931) Homepage
    & history's shown that isn't a good idea. unfortunately, I'm guessing the not-so-tech-savvy politicians will fall for that argument, especially since they'll get a lot of money to do so.
    • by PolygamousRanchKid ( 1290638 ) on Saturday February 24, 2018 @09:31PM (#56183181)

      I'm guessing the not-so-tech-savvy politicians will fall for that argument, especially since they'll get a lot of money to do so.

      I'm guessing that the NSA is afraid that if we are allowed to open up the devices we own, we might find the "friend" that the NSA has planted in there.

      Like and Intel Management Engine, for instance.

    • There is some of that, sure, but they actually have a point hidden in the doublespeak.

      For instance, in the case of the touch sensors used by iPhones, they’re uniquely paired with the rest of the hardware via cryptographic keys, ensuring that if a bad actor ever tried to replace the sensor with one that would grant them unfettered access the rest of the iPhone would refuse to play along.

      The problem, however, is that this trade organization is trying to suggest it’s an either-or problem when it is

    • by rhazz ( 2853871 )
      It's not even that, it's just the same fear-mongering that Apple was trying to push when they wanted to criminalize jail-breaking iPhones a number of years ago. Back then it was claimed to be risk to the mobile infrastructure allowed by having users install third-party software on a device connected to the network. All they really wanted was to maintain full control at the expense of the consumer because it's part of their business model. The difference is that today the fear-du-jour for devices is privacy
  • by Steve Jackson ( 4687763 ) on Saturday February 24, 2018 @08:12PM (#56182933)
    They are in danger of NOT completely emptying their wallets to the fat-cats and the CEOs "Bonus" programs and Beer Funds.... Gotta fix that!
  • by alvinrod ( 889928 ) on Saturday February 24, 2018 @08:14PM (#56182943)
    Let's let the consumers be the judge of what's a danger to themselves. People who try to go around making laws and rules for someone else's good tend to do a spectacularly poor job of it and generally cause just as much harm as good, even in the case where they're well-meaning instead of clearly under some ulterior motives as is the case here.

    If people want to accept some increased risk (which I don't believe exists) by using third party repair services, that's on them. If a company wants to warn their customers about the possibility of danger, that's as far as they should go.
    • by careysub ( 976506 ) on Saturday February 24, 2018 @08:27PM (#56182995)

      I don't think you are following along with this subject (though mysteriously you are currently rated "Score:4 Insightful").

      It sounds like you think that there is a movement afoot to pass laws to ban people from repairing their own property. That is the opposite of what is happening here. Businesses are trying to take away the ability to repair products through purchase contracts, designing products that can only be repaired by the manufacturer (there are various ways of doing this), and restricting access to spare parts. People are trying to get legislation passed to preserve the ability to repair products, which has up to now been assumed to exist.

      The whole point is that corporations are trying to take away the ability of letting consumers decide.

      • by Kjella ( 173770 )

        The whole point is that corporations are trying to take away the ability of letting consumers decide.

        Well, in the past you were mostly concerned with the quality of the repair and we've had that whole run with third party parts and uncertified labor. Unfortunately with a lot of modern gadgets it's not that it doesn't work, it's that it's also a Trojan horse. Like, whatever the customer wanted fixed is fixed, but it'll also steal all your private data or contain a backdoor to be controlled like a puppet. With digital signing it can empty your bank accounts and do serious damage. It's not just because they w

        • by Kjella ( 173770 )

          That "-1, Overrated" mod really should be replaced with "-1, I disagree but I got no arguments or facts to contradict you with so I'll just try to silence you". Ah well...

          • by William Baric ( 256345 ) on Saturday February 24, 2018 @10:32PM (#56183357)

            You just repeated the nonsensical argument of the industry. I do think the "overrated" mod was appropriate.

            Is it possible that a repair shop would install a Trojan horse on one of their customers' devices? I guess. Is it probable? No. Believe it or not, but not every technician is a criminal who wants to empty your bank account and then flee the country.

            Do you also believe company should forbid people to change their hard drive and to reinstall the OS on their computer because they would end up being "controlled like a puppet?"

            • by Rakarra ( 112805 )

              Do you also believe company should forbid people to change their hard drive and to reinstall the OS on their computer because they would end up being "controlled like a puppet?"

              If you believe all the phone manufacturers and video game console manufacturers*** , then yes!

              *** Actually, just about every consumer electronics company outside of the desktop computer market.

          • ... I'll just try to silence you ...

            Hyperbole.

            I can see the post, so it's certainly not silenced.

            Value judgement aside, moderation doesn't work the way you apparently think it does.

        • by Anonymous Coward

          Except this is being used by John Deere to make it so only they can repair their tractors.

          So, farmer John's tractor needs an oil change. He could do it for $80 for the oil and a filter, but NO - he has to call John Deere, so they can send a technician to do it for him. Sure, the oil change is only $120 (50% mark up), but the trip charge (farms tend to be isolated places, away from civilization). is another $240. So, yeah, now you're talking about an $80 oil change costing $360. Keep complaining about the co

        • by Puls4r ( 724907 ) on Saturday February 24, 2018 @10:52PM (#56183405)
          By your reasoning , we'd be finding gps trackers installed in our cars so independent repairman can sell or location data. Plumbers would install remote shutoffs so we had to call them back. By your logic, no repair would ever be a safe repair if done by a third party. You are an idiot.
        • So don't trust any third party repair companies, but totally trust the first party manufacturers because reasons. They are no more trustworthy and they know it.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by burtosis ( 1124179 )
        "Which has up to now been assumed to exist" assumed by who? Because I clearly remember apple trying to claim and also fight in court that jailbreaking is illegal [wired.com] Also that fixing your home button is illegal [inverse.com] - they bricked phones over it before the backlash of stupid forced them to recant (FFS just disable the print reader not the phone) Tell this to farmers who can't repair thier own tractors because it's illegal, it goes on and on. We wouldn't need right to repair laws if it was always assumed.
      • Bought two Surface Books -- 3 year warranties -- with the full knowledge that warranty service means a clean unit is sent back to me. Hello Cloud. The detach feature on one of them borked, and it was seriously painless to restore my account when the replacement arrived. To me, this is far preferable to the hunk of iron that my Thinkpad was -- as much as I loved the TP's keyboard, it was serious shoulder strain. Pretty certain the Macbooks are equally not repairable.

      • by jvkjvk ( 102057 )

        I don't think you are following along with this subject

        What? Of course he is. *you* appear to be the one not following along.

        It sounds like you think that there is a movement afoot to pass laws to ban people from repairing their own property.

        There is. From TFS: "The Security Innovation Center, with backing of powerful tech industry groups, is arguing that letting consumers fix their own devices will empower hackers. "

        A movement afoot to ban people form repairing their own property.

        That is the opposite of what is happening here.

        O really? From TFS: "The group released a survey last week warning of possible privacy and security risks should consumers have the right to repair their own devices."

        Right there, "risks" should

    • by El Cubano ( 631386 ) on Saturday February 24, 2018 @09:02PM (#56183091)

      Let's let the consumers be the judge of what's a danger to themselves. People who try to go around making laws and rules for someone else's good tend to do a spectacularly poor job of it and generally cause just as much harm as good, even in the case where they're well-meaning instead of clearly under some ulterior motives as is the case here.

      I totally 100% agree with you. However, I feel it necessary to point out that the logic being used by these industry trade groups boils down to "these are dangerous things which must be kept out of the wrong hands."

      Coincidentally, or not coincidentally depending on how conspiracy-minded you are, that is the same argument used by gun control advocates.

      Now the merits of the position can certainly be argued as to how they pertain to both smart electronics and also firearms. However, I would consider anyone that supports right-to-repair and gun control, or who opposes both, to be engaging in some sort of congnitive dissonance. People can either choose for themselves or they cannot.

      • by CrashNBrn ( 1143981 ) on Sunday February 25, 2018 @02:43AM (#56183855)

        However, I feel it necessary to point out that the logic being used by these industry trade groups boils down to

        This is a "Lobbying Group." And much like most such groups,
        1) Claims to represent companies|people that it doesn't,
        2) Chooses a name "Security Innovation Center," that is the polar opposite of it's actual intent,
        3) And like most Lobying Groups exists soley to bring about specialist protectionist legislation that will screw over the most people for the least amount of money.

      • by JaredOfEuropa ( 526365 ) on Sunday February 25, 2018 @06:50AM (#56184153) Journal
        Neither of these are black and white issues, unless you believe in an absolute right to bear arms or repair stuff. There's always a trade-off, and usually there are multiple options between the 2 extremes. Someone may want the right to repair because the upside (cheaper repairs because of no monopoly, more devices being repaired instead of thrown out) outweighs the downside (a very very very farfetched scenario where a rogue repairman called Harry Tuttle installs an illegal little bypass in your aircon). There's no contradiction in that same person weighing the upside of owning guns for self defense against the fact that with guns we invariably end up with a bunch of dead kids from time to time, and deciding that a ban on guns is better. Or maybe to push for gun control and registration, if that means we can have guns but no dead kids. It's not about whether or not people can choose for themselves or not, but what the potential consequences of their choices are.
      • Um, why the cognitive dissonance? A libertarian could easily oppose gun control and government regulation of what private corporations make, or someone could think guns dangerous enough to warrant regulations and want the ability to repair legislated, dismissing this claimed danger. Those are completely consistent viewpoints.

    • by clovis ( 4684 )

      If, as these industry leaders say, these products are so dangerous, then liability for errors in their design needs to be written into law.
      And especially for well known bad design errors such as common admin passwords, backdoors, and ports open by default to incoming connections.

      At first I agreed that letting the consumers be the judge of what's a danger. There's no way a consumer can know about the internal design of these products, and it's probably illegal to try to find out anything if the manufacturer

  • by quonset ( 4839537 ) on Saturday February 24, 2018 @08:20PM (#56182959)

    WTF? These "smart" devices already aren't secure, send your data to someone at a distant location, and don't always work as the manufacturer says they should. And these same people are worried someone might hack them?

    What next? Making computers where the bits and pieces are welded on so one can't upgrade it?

    • What next? Making computers where the bits and pieces are welded on so one can't upgrade it?

      Isn't that basically what Apple has been doing for years?

    • by Z80a ( 971949 )

      Welding? no of course not.
      They gonna pot the whole thing.

      • An ultrasonic weld on a plastic case _would_ make them essentially waterproof... they already got rid of the headphone jack, so it only follows that the rest of the connectors will be replaced with a wireless pseudo-replacement.
        • by Z80a ( 971949 )

          There are other reasons to pot all the components, for example, stopping people from repairing your device by turning it into a solid chunk of resin.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Yeah, I sure would hate it if a hostile party had control of my device and was limiting its use and determining what I could do with it.

    But I really like how their argument boils down to 'We screwed up the security, therefore you should trust us and only us.'

    This is yet another reminder of why the IoT is a stupid idea. If your washing machine is even capable of identity fraud, you're doing something wrong.

    • If your washing machine is even capable of identity fraud, you're doing something wrong.

      My robot has its own Facebook page and plans to hack the next election in the US.

      It is also apparently fluent in Russian, because it chats Russian late at night.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24, 2018 @08:29PM (#56182999)

    "People say 'It's just my washing machine. Why can't I fix it on my own?' But we saw the Mirai botnet attack last year... Those kinds of products in the wrong hands can be used to do bad things."

    Problem number 1 is you stupid fucks decided to put Wifi in a washing machine. I have an older washing machine with a clockwork type timer control mechanism. I had the replace he timer about 6 months ago, took all of 15 minutes to repair. My washing machine doesn't need to be internet connected.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Sadly, I used to work for one of the companies that made the clockwork timers in white goods. The big appliance companies have transitioned away from electromechanical. That's part of the reason I no longer work for that company. Their business dried up.

      Now I am working as a repair tech on stuff that includes John Deere products....

      • For what it's worth, quite a few low-end and commercial appliances (e.g. Speed Queen washer/dryers) still have clockwork timers. I'm not sure if they're better than digital. Digital control panels are sealed and have no moving parts -- a well-designed system should last decades and be immune to entry of dirt or liquids.
        • They do break. I had one break on my 14 year old machine when the motor overloaded due to worn out shocks. A common occurrence apparently. The repair guy quoted around €400 for a replacement logic board... Thankfully, these older board aren't sealed and are pretty old school: a little Googling and replacing €4 worth of parts and it was back in business (after replacing the shocks as well). Which is great, these older Miele brand machines are not 100% maintenance free and not without faults eit
      • by Mashiki ( 184564 ) <mashikiNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Saturday February 24, 2018 @09:26PM (#56183163) Homepage

        Well that's because electromechanical devices have a low failure rate. If they can't charge out the ass by forcing the customer to buy an entire new front-end array for half the cost of the washing machine it's really bad for the bottom line.

        Now I am working as a repair tech on stuff that includes John Deere products....

        Bet that's fun, most farmers around here dumped their Deere stuff a few years ago when they decided to be pricks over the farmers ability to control their equipment. You can pick up a 2yr old Deere tractor loaded to the gills for $20k but no-one is buying. On the other side of that, the price for Fendt and Deutz-Fahr have gone up around 30% and there's parts shortages.

        • Electromechanical devices (with moving parts) fail more than a properly designed all-electronic control panel. Key phrase: properly designed.
          • by Mashiki ( 184564 ) <mashikiNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Saturday February 24, 2018 @10:40PM (#56183373) Homepage

            Electromechanical devices (with moving parts) fail more than a properly designed all-electronic control panel. Key phrase: properly designed.

            Except for those millions of cases where they don't right? Ask yourself how many times you've heard from someone saying that their brand new electronic whatever has already failed in warranty, but their parents 30 year old whatever is still chugging along and hasn't stopped. Or you have some asshat of a company like Samsung that built their fridges to fail just outside of the warranty phase(all electronic bits fyi). Here's the thing, we're really good at making electromechanical devices that last long, and have low rates of failure. The relays and emr-switches that our company uses have a failure rate of 1:900k over 10 years. They have to handle wet, dry, humid, extreme heat/cold and keep going day in and day out.

            I'll agree that some stuff has a higher failure rate, cars for example with non-electronic ignition had multiple points of failure and were prone for the simplest no-start problems mostly relating to the rotor. On the other side, for every $1k central console in car that fails and takes out the: radio, navigation, heater, signals, and so on. That 20 year old clunker next to you with all mechanical relays, wires, and switches is still going strong.

          • Bullshit. My ma's old Kenmore dryer lasted 30 yrs with only *one* service call -- for a worn-out belt that I could have changed myself. The electromechanical controls were still working just fine when she scrapped it in 2001. This is with normal use every other day for a household of five.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    A group representing electronics manufacturers, who stand to gain financially by controlling access to their devices, argues that granting consumers access to a device they bought is "dangerous" to them and to everyone. Right. Don't for a second believe these folks have anyone's interests at heart but their own - the laws of corporation actually strongly discourage executive officers from arguing otherwise.

  • "He said the group thinks such measures are dangerous, citing the "power of connected products and devices" and the fact that they are often connected to each other and to the Internet via wireless networks."

    Translation: most dhttps://it.slashdot.org/story/18/02/24/1939255/new-tech-industry-lobbying-group-argues-right-to-repair-laws-endanger-consumers#evices are routers.

    Oh, the horror if people find that out!

  • by Anonymous Coward

    This is all just absurd. The right to repair does not empower hackers. The availability of repair parts doesn't threaten people's safety. Guns can be used to threaten someone but there is no chance of us restricting them but repair parts now they are just criminal you might save a few dollars by repairing rather than replacing saving your family from financial ruin and heck even prevent greater tragedy. But let's criminalize repairing your own device violating the doctrine of first sale while putting more g

  • by rgriff59 ( 526951 ) on Saturday February 24, 2018 @08:43PM (#56183029)
    So the very tech industry actors that created the stage for the Mirai botnet think letting consumer take any control of those same actors' faulty devices will create significant new dangers? I think allowing those manufacturers any more unsupervised commercial activity is far more dangerous.
  • They don't want customers fixing any of the "SMART" malware they purchased to no longer endanger their privacy, security, artificially limit capabilities or restrict choice.

    Lost malware = lost revenue

  • Okay (Score:5, Insightful)

    by c ( 8461 ) <beauregardcp@gmail.com> on Saturday February 24, 2018 @08:53PM (#56183059)

    If you're arguing that consumers shouldn't be able to fix stuff "because security", then we presume that you're promising the stuff you sell actually is secure and that you're willing to accept 100% liability when things get hacked?

    * crickets *

    Well then, fuck you too.

    • Their tact is that since their product will be 'locked down' we will not have the ability to even determine if the security is at fault. They want black boxes everywhere that absolve them of blame.

      • I call BS on the grounds all data has already been stolen. When we won't even hold equifax responsible for collecting data on all Americans, most of which is against thier will and or knowledge, they can simply get fucked.
  • "Zecher said that allowing device owners or independent repair professionals to service smart home devices and connected appliances could expose consumer data to hackers or identity thieves."

    "That's our job."

  • I have never walked into a house that had a router less than five years old. I keep mine for 10 years at least, it's a natural lifetime. Do any manufacturers provide software updates for hardware > 2 years old? no. I have two google nexus 5 phones, no software support at all I'm sure appliance companies said, sorry your washer is two years old, we don't stock those parts, they wouldn't stay in business very long. I don't understand making objects smart suddenly makes their useful lives shorter than a gerbil's.
    • I don't understand making objects smart suddenly makes their useful lives shorter than a gerbil's.

      Because it makes it makes planned obsolescence easier. People are often willing to buy again every few years in order to get something incrementally better. Also, the appliances in question are often small and easy to get rid of.

  • There is an easy fix to the "Tech Group's" fallacious "survey" concerns about devices connected to the internet: just don't buy devices connected to the internet that don't need connecting to the internet. My fridge, my stove, my vacuum, my washer, my drier, my water heater, my breaker box, my...

    Besides, those are not really what the issue is about. The issue stems from third parties, including users, not being able to repair their cars, trucks and tractors. I certainly do NOT need my tractors connected to

  • ... is for consumers to 'repair' their devices by disabling the phone home features. Or in the case of IoT devices with a legitimate need to be connected; to redirect the connection to a competing service or home server. So the vendor won't be able to monetize the collected data.

  • That has to be the worst excuse I have ever heard. I sincerely hope someone superglues their ass cheeks together in their sleep so they will stop spewing so much shit.

  • that many of the people who are pushing back against right-to-repair legislation and sentiments, are the same ones who are pushing STEM education and mandatory comp sci courses in high school. Do they really think that having greater numbers of technically skilled citizens won't result in a much bigger, more knowledgeable, and more effective push for right-to-repair? I rather think the swelling ranks of the tech savvy will insist on using their hard-won skills on their own behalf to repair, manage, and con

  • How do people who are not shilling for major corporations with nothing but a profit motive band together to address silly-assed arguments like this?

    Are there groups that won't be merely waved off as a bunch of insignificant cranks because they don't have lobbyists?

    EFF? Are they chiming in on this?

  • what the bull leaves out in the pasture! I will dissect anything I purchase if I decide to! If I can not I do not want it in my life.

    Just my 2 cents ;)
  • Hire someone to say Fucking Anything remotely coherent, put it on facebook, and people think it's the motherfucking Gospel.

    As long as there's a way to program the original device, someone will eventually hack it.

  • Now that the industry has admitted how dangerous these products could be, they should be held 100% responsible for securing them. Any breach, especially on a locked down device that the consumer did not or could not mess with, would be their liability.

    Since the devices might outlive the companies that sold them, all such devices must carry insurance, premium paid by the manufacturer, to make good on any damage they might cause.

    Only when there is an actual cost that affects their bottom line these guys will take security seriously. Forcing them to buy liability insurance will make some one look at the devices and assess the security.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Wel I for one was unaware the Mirai botnet was caused by consumers repairing their washing machines, we live and learn..........

  • Some enterprising manufacturer make say, a completely user repairable smartphone, and let the market decide.

    I can repair a present day smartphone as long as I can get the parts for it.

    But that's another thing. How long does the right to repair enforce availability of all of the parts in that smartphone. 10 years? 25? forever?

    Modular or component level repair?

    What level of acumen is the baseline user? Someone like me, who has operated on chips themselves, or Grandma who has never dissasembled anyth

  • It's what politicians and lobbyists do. Unfortunately our society is very susceptible to it. Maybe better education can make our country less susceptible to it. But with the way present-day politicians are slashing educational budgets, it doesn't look encouraging.

  • ... according to the organization’s survey of 1,015 Americans ... 84 percent told survey takers that they value the security of their data over convenience or speed of service.

    So if they had asked me: What do you value most:

    • A: Data security
    • B: Convenience
    • C: Speed of service
      • I would probably have answered "A". The inappropriately named "Security Innovation Center" seems to be saying this means consumers don't want the right to repair. If they said "speed of service", in that context I would have been thinking "network throughput" when what they meant was "time to repair". Use of ambiguous or duplicitous language in a poll is unforgivable.

        In any case, I'm not trying to fix or
  • ...speak out against Best Buy?

    "Zecher said that allowing device owners or independent repair professionals to service smart home devices and connected appliances could expose consumer data to hackers or identity thieves"

    How is it any different than Best Buy dumping people's computer and phone contents onto their own systems?

    Why didn't they go to Congress and yell, "They can't be trusted to repair stuff anymore!"

  • ...innocent kind of belief they're going with there. Always the same boring, and mindbogglingly stupid argument:

    "Those kinds of products in the wrong hands can be used to do bad things."

    It would be the same as accusing the other 99% of actual product owners who just want to modify/optimize/better/repair and fix their own stuff to save a few buck, not to mention saving the entire planet - of being the criminals.

    And if you own a product - YOU OWN IT! What part is there not to understand? Of course you can't d

  • It looks more and more to me like the "Industry" is trying to get things set so that they have all the rights, and final users do not. Mostly, this takes the form of "providing a service" over actual ownership a device.

    If you Own it, you have every right to try and fix it, should it fail, or behave erratically. This allows you to get your monies' worth out of the darned thing, before having to buy a whole new one.

    Should it be designated as a Service, then the service provider has the lions' share of the rig

    • I fixed Windows 10 by never installing it.Everyone was warned way before hand what win 10 was..And everyone missed the warning signals, ms gave it away for FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE And tricked lazy/trusting people to installing even more copies. Lied to pro buyers and removed functionality they paid for the only people who have the real balls are people like me who just said no. If my PC dies im going Linux but i hate have to do that as linux wont allow me to install any of my software. but going windows 10 wou
  • We shoud buy our food allready cut, because... "Those kinds of products in the wrong hands can be used to do bad things."
    Really?!

Matter cannot be created or destroyed, nor can it be returned without a receipt.

Working...