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Encryption Math

Researchers Propose a Revocable Identity-Based Encryption Scheme 76

jd writes Identity-based public key encryption works on the idea of using something well-known (like an e-mail address) as the public key and having a private key generator do some wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff to generate a secure private key out if it. A private key I can understand, secure is another matter. In fact, the paper notes that security has been a big hassle in IBE-type encryption, as has revocation of keys. The authors claim, however, that they have accomplished both. Which implies the public key can't be an arbitrary string like an e-mail, since presumably you would still want messages going to said e-mail address, otherwise why bother revoking when you could just change address?

Anyways, this is not the only cool new crypto concept in town, but it is certainly one of the most intriguing as it would be a very simple platform for building mostly-transparent encryption into typical consumer apps. If it works as advertised. I present it to Slashdot readers to engender discussion on the method, RIBE in general and whether (in light of what's known) default strong encryption for everything is something users should just get whether they like it or not.
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Researchers Propose a Revocable Identity-Based Encryption Scheme

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  • Not distributed (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Animats ( 122034 ) on Monday September 22, 2014 @01:00AM (#47962527) Homepage

    I'm not qualified to judge whether it's secure, but it's not distributed. "Each user is provided by PKG with a set of private keys corresponding to his/her identity for each node on the path from his/her associated leaf to the root of the tree via a secure channel as in IBE scheme." So there's a tree of all users, maintained by somebody. I think; the paper suffered in translation.

    • Re:Not distributed (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Lennie ( 16154 ) on Monday September 22, 2014 @01:42AM (#47962631)

      (I haven't read the article yet)

      Distributed wouldn't be my fear, federated would be fine (for example can a person or organization use their own domain).

      I wonder will my communication be easy to identify with an Identity-based encryption scheme.

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward

        For most schemes you can't check which identity encrypted a message unless you know the private key, so you can't be tracked any more than e-mail headers already tell about you. The main problem with all IBEs is that you need a centralized key generator that will generate all the keys. The key generator has a master secret key and can therefore decrypt all messages. Therefore, it's best suited for organizations, where it doesn't hurt that there's one entity with the keys to the safe.

        There are some more comp

    • by Anonymous Coward

      Yeah. And Someone(TM) is providing private keys -- thus the keys ain't truly private anymore.

      One of the really nice properties of the "classical" schemes were that my private keys never left my realm -- from (and including) creation to disposal.

      While there are enough weaknesses to these schemes as well (is my realm secure?), giving up this property seems to make us weaker, not stronger.

      Make no mistake: big players will be pushing towards central management, but that's not because it serves the user, but bec

  • flawed (Score:3, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22, 2014 @01:13AM (#47962565)

    You can not generate a secure private key from a public key by definition.

    This method requires the use of a middle man.

    Everytime you make it "stupid proof" you make it insecure, in this case, needing a trusted (insecure) third party.

    Let's just grow up, and start teaching kids at a young age about data security and making better UX for existing tech.

    • by Sique ( 173459 )
      You can by adding a random salt. If the scheme warrants that the spaces of possible private keys of two sources don't overlap, then you can have secure private keys which are not recreatable from the publicly known source, but which still can be attributed to it.
  • by penguinoid ( 724646 ) on Monday September 22, 2014 @01:16AM (#47962573) Homepage Journal

    If the email address is the public key, and then you generate a private key from that... what's to stop someone else from generating your private key from the email address?

    • by Anonymous Coward

      The article summary is useless, it's just better to read the article.

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      It's the wibbly wobbly, timely slimely, wishy washy magic sauce.

    • by jarkus4 ( 1627895 ) on Monday September 22, 2014 @02:26AM (#47962719)

      from wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ID-based_encryption)

      Identity-based systems allow any party to generate a public key from a known identity value such as an ASCII string. A trusted third party, called the Private Key Generator (PKG), generates the corresponding private keys. To operate, the PKG first publishes a master public key, and retains the corresponding master private key (referred to as master key). Given the master public key, any party can compute a public key corresponding to the identity ID by combining the master public key with the identity value. To obtain a corresponding private key, the party authorized to use the identity ID contacts the PKG, which uses the master private key to generate the private key for identity ID.

      • If IBE requires a trusted third party, it seems to me that its only advantage over having a public key repository is that it can work offline, i.e. you do not need access to the trusted 3rd party to generate someone's public key from an email address, you only need to get and remember the master public key (once). In that case, a public key repository (a service that spits out someone's public key when given their email address) seems to have a lot of advantages, especially in the sense that this repositor
      • by X10 ( 186866 )

        from wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ID-based_encryption)

        A trusted third party, called the Private Key Generator (PKG), generates the corresponding private keys.

        Right. It's the same as PKI, just more complicated.

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) *

        Problem is there are no trusted third parties any more. Pretty much anyone could be lent on by governments demanding access to keys and gagging them from warning users. There is also the risk of hacking my GCHQ/NSA/etc.

      • What the FUCK?!

        ...retains the corresponding master private key (referred to as master key).

        So we have a Master Public Key and a Master Private Key but we refer to the Master Private Key as only Master.

        What kind of hand-waving smoke and mirrors bullshit is going on here?

        To obtain a corresponding private key, the party authorized to use the identity ID contacts the PKG, which uses the master private key to generate the private key for identity ID.

        Contacts the PKG which uses the Master Private Key?

        Really. What. The fuck. Ever. Did I miss something here? How is this in ANY way a good idea? "But if you trust..." I trust NOBODY. I barely even trust myself and only because I have to.

        Meh

    • Because no-one else in the world knows how to ROT13 the @ sign.

  • Oh please. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by andyn ( 689342 ) on Monday September 22, 2014 @02:48AM (#47962775)

    having a private key generator do some wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff to generate a secure private key out if it.

    This is Slashdot. Pretty please stop underestimating our skills.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      I don't even know how to code 'Hello World' in QBASIC.

      • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Let me explain how to do it:
        1. open your editor
        2. do some wibbly-wobbly stuff
        3. some more timey-wimey
        4. done!

      • by Megol ( 3135005 )

        This should work in any BASIC dialect:

        10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD"

  • entropy (Score:4, Insightful)

    by epyT-R ( 613989 ) on Monday September 22, 2014 @03:18AM (#47962833)

    an email address is likely very low entropy.. Shouldn't both key halves be as random as possible?

  • Private key and public key are factors in a two factor mathematical relationship.

    So there can potentially be many (possibly infinitely many, I haven't tried to prove this) valid private keys for any given public key.

    So I can see that, given the public key john@doe.com, I can see that there could be potentially many private keys. I see how you could brute force selecting a private key that matched your public key, and I can see that, depending how the brute-forcing is done, it would not be determinate that an attacker also trying to brute force a private key from the same public key would not come up with the same private key.

    What I can't see is how, if you have a message which unlocks with the public key, how you can tell whether it was locked with the 'authentic' private key or with an attackers' inauthentic private key.

    Anyone?

  • by IamTheRealMike ( 537420 ) on Monday September 22, 2014 @04:21AM (#47962953)

    whether (in light of what's known) default strong encryption for everything is something users should just get whether they like it or not.

    There are many unsolved problems for making strong end to end secured communications work. Key management is only one. A bigger and even more complicated problem is that people derive significant benefits from sharing their message contents with big, powerful third parties, for example spam filtering, importance filtering, ability to search 10 years of email from a cheap battery powered device, ability to receive messages when all personal devices are offline, ability to reset passwords if they are forgotten and so on.

    To make truly end to end communication ubiquitous you would have to find a way to recreate all these features in the purely decentralised end to end context. Otherwise "giving" e2e crypto to people "whether they like it or not" is a quick way to find an angry mob with pitchforks outside your house. A lot of people care a lot more about those features than (somewhat theoretical) privacy against the NSA.

  • by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Monday September 22, 2014 @04:27AM (#47962959)

    Oh thank god for a moment I thought I was going to get a dumbed down news article rather than news for nerds. Good to see they cover the technical details like the "wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff" in the summary.

  • As any such identity based encryption requires a master secret (or secrets) that is used to generate the private keys (if not anyone who knows your email can generate a private key for that public key and thus read anything encrypted to you) you might as well just be using gmail and counting on google not to get hacked. After all, you can't compromise every gmail account by gaining access to a few servers but anyone who hacks the server with the master secret brings down the whole system in IBE. And gmail

    • Of course you can have as many master secrets as you want with each controlled by a different entity but those master public keys need to be distributed somehow. However, if you try and allow any master secret to work with any email you have exactly the system we have with ssl certs and we know that won't work for things like email. After all if any master secret can generate a private key for any email that means that if any master key is compromised so is the whole system. I believe it also requires th

  • Isn't this what PGP is for?
  • Or, are they responding the premise that this simply can't be secure?

    I haven't fully digested it, but it sounds interesting at the very least for me to at least try to understand it. It does not appear to be a crackpot article as one might assume. And, it sounds like it's being posted for true peer review as most security papers should,

  • It makes sense embedding into the identity itself the means to prove that identity. Linking a public key identity to an email address would be simple; you just put a self-signed certificate somewhere which claims "this email address belongs to me". There could be public, distributed lookup services for this.

    To make things simpler, instead of using complex schemes for carrying private keys around, better just to use a deterministic key generation scheme which builds the identity from a passphrase. It is easy

  • To address the summary, the difficulty is in proving certain security aspects, as current models don't fit the assumptions that RIBE models use. In practice, it could be fine.

    The article seems to propose a set forward in a scheme to manage the keys by combining two previously proposed methods in a novel way. I can't judge if this is indeed an advance as I am not familiar with this domain. The main advance claimed is that the publicly needed parameters is constant. This suggests that other schemes had an iss

    • That was pretty much my interpretation as well. Which would be great for ad-hoc encrypted tunnels - the source and destination can have keys that are valid only until the tunnel's authentication expires (typically hourly) and where the encryption is based on the identity the other side is known by. Ad-hoc tunnels need to generate keys quickly and efficiently, but also don't need to be super-secure. In fact, they can't be.

      If RIBE isn't useful in ad-hoc, then you'd end up having to ask when it would be useful

  • After reading through it, my first response to new IBE schemes is "Can I implement it efficiently in hardware?". In this instance, no. The need for bignum arithmetic is a problem since it leads a nondeterministic state requirement. Worse is it appears to require a common understanding of time between the interacting entities. If IBE is used for the key management and those keys are used to secure a common, secure notion of time, then you have a circular dependency.

    I'll need to go an abduct a proper crypto m

  • Serious question. Why is there not just some email header that contains your public key so that anyone who had gotten an email from you and has a supporting client can then send you an encrypted message? It so simple a solution that I assume I must be missing something obvious that prevents it from be a no brainer for key distribution.
  • and having a private key generator do some wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff to generate a secure private key out if it.

    This is another one of those fucked up "articles" isn't it... Perhaps it is time I left. What the HELL is up with this crap? When I arrived here back in 99 there were very few articles that insulted me. Lately, it seems that one out of every 5 articles is insulting me. Did I miss a memo or something?

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