Accused LulzSec Members Left Trail of Clues Online 221
Trailrunner7 writes "When the long arm of the law reached in to arrest members of Anonymous's senior leadership on Tuesday, speculation immediately turned to the identities of the six men behind the Guy Fawkes mask. With the benefit of hindsight, it turns out that many had been hiding in plain sight, with day jobs, burgeoning online lives and — for those who knew where to look — plenty of clues about their extracurricular activities on behalf of the world's most famous hacking crew. Two of the accused, Darren Martyn (aka 'pwnsauce,' 'raepsauce,' and 'networkkitten,') and Donncha O'Cearbhail, formerly known as Donncha Carroll (aka 'Palladium'), sported significant online footprints and made little effort to hide their affinity for hacking. In other areas, however, Martyn (who was reported to be 25, but claimed to be 19), seemed to be on his way to bigger and better things. He was a local chapter leader of the Open Web Application Security Project in Galway, Ireland. He spent some of his free time with a small collective of computer researchers with Insecurety Research, under the name 'infodox.'"
So it goes (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
The problem usually seems to be bragging and telling others things that they absolutely do not need to know.
First rule of hacking: CYA (Score:5, Insightful)
Hackers nowadays don't even know the rules of hacking
First rule of hacking - Don't leave any trail behind
Second rule of hacking - Leave false leads
the FBI was running them. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sabu was essentially an FBI agent. all the hacks that happened within the past 6 months under the guise of anonymous were, essentially, controlled and directed by the FBI. the FBI even hosted servers for them to use in their operation.
the first rule of hacking would seem to be - if someone asks you to do something illegal and stupid, it's probably an FBI sting operation.
Re:So it goes (Score:5, Interesting)
Cultural programming. If you're going to do something illegal, be sure to announce it to the world: that means you need to be sure to tell a friend, a family member, talk about it on an IRC channel, or with a stranger at a bar. And if you're brought it for questioning, be sure to share a jail cell with a snitch, because it's always a good idea to confide in a criminal. Be sure to tell him that you totally did it, and have no remorse for your actions. Hell, if you are lucky enough, you'll get a roommate who will tell the people in charge that you've confessed, even if you haven't; don't worry, the judge will totally believe him (the standards for evidence these days is abysmal).
And I second Taco Cowboy's post. I believe the rule, back in the day, was to launch an attack through several boxes (SSH -> SSH -> SSH -> SSH -> SSH), and being especially sure to kill the syslogger before doing anything. Finally, be sure to launch it all from a laptop that you haven't used for anything else, on a connection that isn't your own.
And yes, the false leads are useful. The FBI loves it when they spend time tracing the breadcrumbs back to one of their own boxes (surprising the number of attacks, over the years, that have been launched from www.fbi.gov).
Finally, never reuse a box you've used before. Laptop gets an extra squeaky clean format (and a copy of Slack or something), and all boxes between point A and Z are now permanently off-limits. Keep a good lawyer on retainer, and never h@x0r a box inside your own country. Never use a nickname that you've used or mentioned elsewhere (randomly generated is the way to go). For me, were I to engage in some hypothetical cracking, I would never use 'lightknight' as the login, password, or key to anything. Wouldn't reuse the password tied to this account either.
Never tell your MO (Score:4, Funny)
Re:So it goes (Score:5, Informative)
Rules to Hack and stay Free by:
1. Never hack where you sleep, live, work, go to school, play, etc. To extend this idea a little, never hack from a location where there is any way at all to correlate your real identity. This includes public wifi spots where there are cameras, for example. As another example, if you use a library (assuming they don't also have cameras) it would be a bad idea to check a book out... or even have a card there.
1b. This also includes recon and conversations related to hacking.
1c. Leave your cellphone at home, or remove the battery.
2. Most hackers can't afford to use a fresh, clean system for every hack or related activity. If you can, great. But if not, be sure you use a fully sanitized system, preferably one reserved just for hacking. A clean system running a non-installed OS and relying on virtual machines is the best option, encryption is a must-have and you absolutely have to be able to alter your NIC's MAC address. The hardware virtualization should be able to be altered so that nothing about the system will generate a consistent "fingerprint" across boots.
3. Do not use public proxies or ones supplied by a 3rd party. Use only systems which you have personally compromised as a proxy agent.
3b. All proxies should be regarded as already compromised, or even as honeypots. They should only be used to slow down the hunters, and assume that eventually they may yield some information even if they get scrubbed.
4. Leave false trails when it is practical.
4b. It is better to not leave a false trail, then it is to leave a false one and in the process create another real one.
5. Never re-use handles, login names, passwords, drop locations, proxies, etc. Consider all that data one-time use only.
6. Last, and most important is: Never become attached to anything which you cannot walk away from if you feel the Heat coming.
Most hackers violate all these rules on a regular basis. They get lazy and sloppy, so they hack from home and re-use systems. They brag about what they did, intermix details of their real life with various handles, and re-use names, passwords, locations, and methods. People who don't follow these rules are Amateurs, not Professionals. Professionals can walk away from their entire real life if it ends up becoming compromised... most people who hack cannot do this and as such will never truly be "Elite".
Re:So it goes (Score:5, Funny)
True pros kill themselves after each hack.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
and a lack of maturity
I personally think they're idiots, but the way the word "maturity" is thrown everywhere also seems wrong to me. As if anyone who does something that someone else doesn't like is objectively immature.
"You found that joke funny!? You have a different sense of humor than me! That makes you immature!"
"You used a name online that I don't like! Clearly you're objectively immature!"
It's gotten to the point where the use of such words means absolutely nothing.
Re: (Score:3)
Seriously... pwnsauce? How many 10 year olds out there have that name online? Worse than when people showed up with persona names like "Zerocool".
Hey thanks for the tip, but "pwnsauce" is already taken in the online game I play. Got any other suggestions? I've been using "abbafan" but nobody believes me when I pretend to be 12.
Bieberfan?
Dump summery (Score:5, Informative)
LulzSec were their own hacker group operating under their own name to bolder their own egos. Please don't conflate them with Anonymous.
LulzSec shared some aims and humor with Anonymous, but they always wanted to be identified. And that egotism helped get them caught.
Well then they goofed up. (Score:5, Insightful)
And there is nothing more to say about it.
Let me make something clear to any would be members of these groups or individuals who think hackers are cool. If you are a hacker expect to go to jail. Don't protest or do anything which isn't worth going to jail for. Most of the hacks these individuals participated in were not the sort of stuff that in hindsight they will believe was worth sacrificing their life for.
These individuals may not be physically dead but they have no future, no career. The rumored snitch Sabu has it the worst because if what they say about him is true he's not going to be accepted in the criminal or police world so he's fucking gone.
LulzSec always seemed like a dumbass group. I'm not a big fan of the whole AntiSec agenda, and I don't think LulzSec can be compared to Anonymous. LulzSec was not defending human rights in any way, while at least with Anonymous you have people who believe in something other than lulz.
Protest doesn't require breaking the law. (Score:5, Insightful)
And it doesn't require pissing off the feds. You can protest in a smart way or in a dumb way and many of Anonymous choose the dumb way with dumb consequences. If they are going to be political freedom fighters, warriors, then they will have to act like warriors and think like warriors.
Young people need to be educated so they know when they get involved with these groups it's like getting involved with a mafia or terrorist organization. Their life is changed forever, many of them might not survive it, those who do could have their life destroyed in all kinds of ways, basically it's young people sacrificing their future.
LulzSec in my opinion were sacrificing their future for dumb reasons. Was it worth going to jail over? Now they are useless to society and can't do shit.
Re:Protest doesn't require breaking the law. (Score:5, Insightful)
And it doesn't require pissing off the feds. You can protest in a smart way or in a dumb way
So tell us, what is the smart way to protest online ?
Unfortunately any online action does involve 'pissing off' authorities, because they have made everything that hurts them illegal.
Why is a DDOS illegal, how is different that a RL protest outside a shop/factory ?
If they are going to be political freedom fighters, warriors, then they will have to act like warriors and think like warriors
So you are advocating violence as the smart way to protest ?
FAIL !
Re:Protest doesn't require breaking the law. (Score:4, Informative)
I'm kind of tired of all the juvenile whining. A bunch of stupid juvenile copycat vandals are not going to accomplish anything positive.
The potential of the Internet for change hasn't even been anywhere near fully explored yet.
Re:Protest doesn't require breaking the law. (Score:4, Insightful)
So tell us, what is the smart way to protest online ?
Unfortunately any online action does involve 'pissing off' authorities, because they have made everything that hurts them illegal.
I guess creating websites advocating for their position with clever videos, news, and so forth is too much? Discussion forums? Press releases? Blogs? Opinion pieces? Trading links with other like minded sites? Developing issue resource centers? Starting local discussion & action groups. Seeking sponsors to fund them and extend their reach?
If they wanted to go a little shady, maybe advocacy spam?
Lots they could do if they were dedicated without DDOS, cracking, and stealing credit card numbers.
Re:Protest doesn't require breaking the law. (Score:5, Insightful)
1st Amendment. Just get a copy of a video of them engaging in some wayward action, and upload it to the web. They'll be laughed at for a week, then fired.
If you want to piss off the (laughable) authorities, just post a copy of their wife engaging in some extramarital affair (happens often enough). They won't be able to touch you, and they'll busy with family problems for the next seven years or so.
Re:Protest doesn't require breaking the law. (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is a DDOS illegal, how is different that a RL protest outside a shop/factory ?
You can't legally prevent other people from gaining access to the shop/factory with your protest, and that's why a denial of service attack is different.
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You can't legally prevent other people from gaining access to the shop/factory with your protest, and that's why a denial of service attack is different.>
You can legally make it inconvenient for people to gain access, the purpose of picket lines is to force people to confront the issue, they can pass through a picket line, but expect a few insults on the way.
DDOS is very similar, most dont stop you from getting to the site, they just make it inconvenient, you have to wiat/reload the website a few times and you usually get through.
There is a fuzzy line in RL protests between legal and illegal protests, however online protest is completely illegal, there needs
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The point of a denial of service attack is to prevent people from getting to the site, whether it's for a few minutes or hours. That's very different from being insulted for crossing a picket line. Nobody is making protest illegal -- there are alternative and legal ways. Two examples are "Bank Transfer Day" and "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day".
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If DDOS attacks as a form of protest is leading to prison then maybe it's not a smart way to protest.
Are you not entertained? (Score:2)
LulzSec in my opinion were sacrificing their future for dumb reasons. Was it worth going to jail over?
Many Bothans died to bring us these Lulz.
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Indeed. This makes them bloody amateurs and highly vulnerable to classical law-enforcement approaches. Add to that that they pissed of a lot of people even some sympathetic to what anonymous tries to do with their anarchistic approach that did not stop from attacking individuals, an you have a recipe for disaster. I am not at all surprised they got caught.
In addition, I strongly suspect their fabled abilities as hackers are vastly overstated too and they just went for the low-hanging fruits. Plenty of those
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What utterly incompetent tradecraft (Score:5, Insightful)
They're children going up against people who have been trained to play this game by masters at it. They were nothing until they became a significant irritant and when that happened they ended up under a sledgehammer. It is a most dangerous game where you cannot make a mistake at as your life is at stake. I don't know how badly they will fall but they're tagged now and most likely will be assigned to someone to watch for some time to come.
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They're children going up against people who have been trained to play this game by masters at it. They were nothing until they became a significant irritant and when that happened they ended up under a sledgehammer. It is a most dangerous game where you cannot make a mistake at as your life is at stake. I don't know how badly they will fall but they're tagged now and most likely will be assigned to someone to watch for some time to come.
And the worst part is these people don't seem at all prepared to get caught and go to jail. Sabu had a child? But he thought it was cool to hack the CIA and DOJ? Maybe he should have thought about what the government would do to his children before he messed with them. Common sense, if you mess with the government they do go after your family and they will treat you like a terrorist.
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I think they're very young and very naive I vaguely remember being that naive and reckless though I never had that level of skill with software. I can't say the FBI treated them any differently as in the past but a lot of barriers on government actions have been wrecked and a bureaucrat can command a whole lot of power.
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> Maybe he should have thought about what the government would do to his children before he messed with them.
It's rather frightening how you seem to consider the government dragging his children into this a reasonable consequence of hacking.
The consequences could be worse. He and his children are still alive.
Whether you consider it frightening or not, reality is what it is, the governments are ruthless in these situations. Anyone who thinks they will hack the DOJ or CIA and not provoke this sort of reaction is just naive.
Re:What utterly incompetent tradecraft (Score:4, Insightful)
Even just "locking up their dad in prison" would be pretty bad for his children...
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It is frightening that many assume they could be harmed because of their connection to him over and above the normal consequence to a family when a member is accused/convicted of a crime.
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> Maybe he should have thought about what the government would do to his children before he messed with them.
It's rather frightening how you seem to consider the government dragging his children into this a reasonable consequence of hacking.
I don't think he meant that it was a 'reasonable' consequence. I think he meant it was an 'expected' consequence. And it was. And Sabu is a shitty father for not considering it.
Story time (Score:5, Interesting)
The police didn't know what to do, and they didn't make it public because the enormity of the crime would have rocked the downtown financial district. Now my friend didn't want to be doing this forever, but he was rather stuck -- because now that the crimes were done, he was a liability, but at the same time, an asset to the organization he worked for. He knew it was only a matter of time before the liability side of the equation exceeded his usefulness and they ended him.
So he did what anyone would do: He asked for help. Not straight out. Not directly, because he was under surveillance all the time by his "friends". So he started leaving clues. Misplaced equipment that would, say, print out his initials over and over again when found later at the crime scene. Subtle things. But enough that law enforcement got the idea that someone was trying to say "help me get out."
Eventually, without his testimony being needed, they were able to piece together the bread crumb trail and nail the entire criminal organization in one sweep. He had to do time of course, but after only a year or so, they let him out on a very generous probation on one condition: Help them solve other crimes too complex for them to deal with.
Now there was no movie ever made about this guy, no book deals, nothing. But he's not the first, he surely won't be the last, and I think it would behoove you people to consider that these people might have wanted to get caught. Sometimes people just get tired. Sometimes they have a change of heart. Sometimes they find out that it was all fun and games until they found out who was writing the paycheck. These "security researchers" are more than likely ex-members of similar organizations that are doing the same thing for the lulzsec people that someone else once did for them: Extradite them from a situation they've gotten too far into.
So people, just remember: You may have their names. It's almost assured you do not have their story.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Story time (Score:5, Insightful)
So he did what anyone would do: He asked for help. Not straight out. Not directly, because he was under surveillance all the time by his "friends". So he started leaving clues. Misplaced equipment that would, say, print out his initials over and over again when found later at the crime scene. Subtle things. But enough that law enforcement got the idea that someone was trying to say "help me get out."
No offense but that sounds like complete crap. How many initials are we talking about here? Two? Three? It's stupid. Anyone doing stuff like this would increase massively their chance of being considered a liability without actually helping themselves at all. Their surveilance didn't pick up on the weird stuff he was doing, rigging equipment to print his intitials, but would have noticed if he'd put a letter in the post? WTF?
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Their surveilance didn't pick up on the weird stuff he was doing, rigging equipment to print his intitials, but would have noticed if he'd put a letter in the post? WTF?
So how would you get a message to the authorities, had you been in his situation? I eagerly await your response, knowing full well you'd have to do the same thing.
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Their surveilance didn't pick up on the weird stuff he was doing, rigging equipment to print his intitials, but would have noticed if he'd put a letter in the post?
That's the problem with street thugs these days, always playing with printers and other office gear, running diagnostics and what not, when they could be smoking a joint and listening to tunes.
Re:Story time (Score:4, Insightful)
A bit of time ago, I learnt that no clever criminal tells true stories of their past to their acquaintances, especially not ones prone to repeat said stories online.
Either you're full of shit or your "man" is.
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When it's past the statute of limitations, speaking details is still stupid to reveal, but technique is not. If information can keep a curious kid from getting ass raped by the system, that is a good thing.
Problem is most of the kids today wont listen.
Re:Story time (Score:4, Interesting)
When it's past the statute of limitations, speaking details is still stupid to reveal, but technique is not. If information can keep a curious kid from getting ass raped by the system, that is a good thing.
A good observation unfortunately lost to this crowd. They all imagine themselves to be capable of being criminal masterminds, and think that it's only "stupid" people that get caught, and other self-deluding beliefs. And in either event, nobody seems to have noticed that I pointed out the person in question here did, in fact, get busted. Guilty. Convicted. There's no reason left to lie, and given that I have met this person in real life, at a real police station, with real suspects, and seen real evidence sitting on his very real desk, all the admonishments of the wannabe intellectual crowd here on slashdot means nothing to me. They're too into themselves to realize that most criminal activity doesn't happen for the reasons they think it does. I've talked to this person's coworkers; They just as often feel bad for the person they're dragging in for questioning as not -- not because they think he's innocent, but because they can understand why he did what they're charging him with. But a crime is a crime, you know... and everybody has a story. It doesn't change the fact they have a job to do, and the reasons for doing it really just do not matter.
That's all I wanted to point out about the lulzsec members: There's probably a story here that's quite different than what's known or being published. Only very rarely does the media get the full story at the time of arrest. Hell, even after a conviction, there's usually a lot of unanswered questions. If they've managed to stay ahead of law enforcement for this long, there's a reason for that even if we don't know it. And there's a reason they're being brought in now too, and I'm pretty sure we don't know that reason either. But... I can offer my experience and knowledge here and suggest that, whatever lulzsec was publicly, privately there was probably organized criminal activity that was creating profit for someone... and these arrests are probably just the tip of a much larger iceberg. Doing it "for the lulz" has got to be one of the stupidest reasons for organized crime I've ever heard and I'm really disappointed anyone here believes that.
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The conclusion from this story is that the government could be forcing captured members of anonymous into their own evil (yes I said evil, I can't believe it either) plans.
Here we have an activist group exposing the extramarital relation of government and big banks and surveillance business and the police's only reaction is to go after those who exposed the problem, and now we have forced labor under treat against public interests, how is that not evil?
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The story is pretty good. I'd make a movie script out of it.
Ok, it's not good. But better than the average movie script today, so I guess you'd have a chance.
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At least you posted this under an account instead of an Anonymous Coward.
Now to peruse your post history and see whether I tend to agree or disagree with you before I decide whether to take your statement at face value or not.
Not that I'll bother posting what I decide. Just saying I appreciate you making that possible -- it lends credence to your statement.
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Sarcastic?
Not at all. I'm stating the obvious: that the only evidence there is any truth to what the poster is saying is their own post history, and the gut judgement as to whether that history warrants being taken seriously, or blown off as someone prone to bullshitting.
I did a fair bit of reading before deciding, and left a comment tag a few days into the post history to show I did indeed do some reading. Something about Microsoft having a Star Trek Movie OS, with every second release sucking. :)
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Bullsh*t. Nice story, but bullsh*t.
Sounds like any other security specialist. (Score:3)
The things they mention sound just like any other security specialist. How is it obvious from this information they did all this stuff?
Never use a connection which can be traced to you (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember that kids. Its not only servers which log connections. Routers can do it as well. Don't do it from McDonalds because they use CCTV. Steal a connection but try not to leave DNA and only use any given connection once. Don't use a car which can be traced to you either. Don't associate with other hackers because they are probably spies. Don't promote your activities on twitter etc because that makes it too fucking easy for the police to come and get you.
Also in the summary its supposed to be "plain sight", not "plain site". They are two different words.
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From what I could tell, they could've avoided being caught by simply keeping their mouth shut and not tell their life story to each other.
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Yes. Do it from the telecom's central office. They love that.
Re:Never use a connection which can be traced to y (Score:5, Interesting)
"Routers can do it as well. Don't do it from McDonalds because they use CCTV."
Um yeah. You have never hacked anything have you.
McDonalds is awesome. 1 small yagi and I can be hundreds of feet away and connect to the Mickey D's AP and hack away. If you think a "hacker" sits in the restaurant with his trenchcoat and flat black laptop with a silver skull spraypainted on it, you really need to learn about the subject.
A uber hax0r will have a nice log of open AP's in an area. he also will have a log of WEP AP's and other routers/AP's as well. He then will do some testing to find good low latency connections.
If he is really good, he will have purchased several sheevaplugs with harmless stickers like "HP Printer" or "ADT security" on them. Gain access to some locations and you plant the box, just plug it in to the wall and network. Small businesses will never notice and most dont have a managed network. Now you just installed a great proxy to go in and out of. Set that sheevaplug up right and it will not only not hold any logs, but erase it's self when the network is unplugged, add a small battery, and it will erase it's self when power is lost.
The security on most company networks is a joke, a device like I mentioned could go years without detection.
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All good points and far better than working from their home ADSL lines which is what LulzSec were apparently doing. I hadn't considered using a directional antenna but that would certainly make you harder to find.
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EVERYBODY RATS.
It's rule #1.
Not to the extent that he did it. You can torture a confession out of anyone but Sabu was actually working FOR the feds not just broken by them. You're right if tortured anyone can be broken given enough time but thats not the same situation.
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Hmm. Let's see here. They're using cracking skills from 1995 and the movie "Hackers"...and there are a hideous number of security companies (including one former anti-virus company) that want to be fed...
Definite possibility.
The Irish Connection (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Luckily for Martyn and Ó Cearall, the Irish Supreme Court just made their extradition—if it were sought by the US or anyone else—a lot more difficult. Last week's Ian Bailey case confirmed that if an Irish citizen (as I assume these two are) commits an act within the State which is a criminal offence under Irish law, they will not be extradited upon request, but rather they will be tried in Ireland. If acquitted, or if the DPP decides there is not enough evidence to prosecute (or decides no
The problem is thinking. They though. . . (Score:2)
tEy VV4Z 3Lee7e.
The price to pay. (Score:2)
Law has nothing to do with ethics. (Score:2)
"It's about laws and ethics, and people have to determine whether they want to follow the speed limit, follow the law," Thomas Brennan, who is a director of OWASP's parent group, told Reuters. "We have the same skill set as the bad guys, but the only difference is ethics."
The law is about morality. It's ethical to break the law provided you have no possibility of getting caught or paying the consequences. It only becomes unethical when the consequences outweigh the benefits. Morality isn't about the consequences of following a certain law, morality is about what you are conditioned to do based on trends, religion, tradition.
Anyone can be moral. Simply do exactly what society expects you to do and no more. To be ethical however requires you to do what produces the best conseq
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Wow. What dictionary do you use?
My dictionary (Funk & Wagnalls) gives about a dozen definitions for moral and 3 for ethical, and there's very little to distinguish one from the other (ethics seems to be a bit more technical).
So in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia morality consisted of snitching on your neighbors. In modern "liberal democracies" it consists of living on the dole.
Actual morality (and ethics) in its highest for
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Wow. What dictionary do you use?
My dictionary (Funk & Wagnalls) gives about a dozen definitions for moral and 3 for ethical, and there's very little to distinguish one from the other (ethics seems to be a bit more technical).
So in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia morality consisted of snitching on your neighbors. In modern "liberal democracies" it consists of living on the dole.
Actual morality (and ethics) in its highest form consists of striving to become a great person; to be someone who would have been considered honorable by Plutarch.
Morals aren't based on science. Morals are based on what feels right, or based on religion, or based on what is or isn't legal.
Ethics (consequentialist ethics) are based on what can be determined to produce the best consequences. You win a war by applying ethical strategies. Game theory is ethics, business involves ethics, winning a competition and pursuing self interest involves ethics.
You can be a moral person and be completely unethical if your morality is deontological. The 10 commandments are an exampl
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What feels right is based on evolutionary psychology; human nature as determined by the physiology of the brain. Religion has nothing to do with it. Morality is all science of the structure of the human brain. Religion is just another way of expressing this structure.
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What feels right is based on evolutionary psychology; human nature as determined by the physiology of the brain. Religion has nothing to do with it. Morality is all science of the structure of the human brain. Religion is just another way of expressing this structure.
Or it could be the opposite. Religion conditions the brain to rewire itself which changes psychology. If all the people who thought differently or who had a different psychology were killed off by the church or didn't reproduce then this would explain it. How likely are prisoners to reproduce?
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What feels right is based on evolutionary psychology; human nature as determined by the physiology of the brain. Religion has nothing to do with it. Morality is all science of the structure of the human brain. Religion is just another way of expressing this structure.
Another flaw in your argument, you ignore the fact that if you put an animal into a skinner box you can change it's psychology. You can condition a rat to feel a certain way when a certain tone is played. You can condition dogs to feel a certain way after a certain stimulus. This is fact and if this is true then it explains the purpose of religion and law.
You can say capitalism is evolution too but it doesn't change the fact that different forms of capitalism influence the evolution of the human species via
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"The law is about morality." It has not been about that for centuries. Maybe that is what they taught you in Grade school but in reality it is very different.
The law is about power. Laws give others power over the masses. outside of a small subset of 7 true laws, everything else is about control and power.
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The law is about maintaining the positions of the people in power. Hence all rebellions and uprisings are illegal.
Anonymous should focus more on getting evidence (Score:3)
Not just dumping random documents of stuff which only functions as PR but actual evidence.
If the US government is committing war crimes or if some other government is, then produce the evidence and take it to the UN. Even if nothing happens at least the world will know and this sort of activity makes sense. But what LulzSec was doing was not exposing war crimes, or protecting life, or protecting human rights, they were going around stealing credit card information and other really stupid crimes. They were going with this anti-sec f the police mentality.
There are police who believe in human rights and who have family and children. Anonymous isn't providing any evidence of any illegal activity which the police could use to do anything. If the issue is the police are too corrupt to do anything then where is the evidence of police corruption? Basically Anonymous is breaking laws just to break them and hacking just to hack in many cases.
And now it seems every protest they do requires some sort of illegal activity. Maybe they'd get more people to support them if not every protest requires DDOS attacks or taking down websites or breaking laws. Some people have a lot to lose, have families, and cannot afford to break the law. Some people are the police, or are in positions of authority.
Site is down (Score:2)
Google Cache Link: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?bih=966&sclient=psy-ab&q=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fthreatpost.com%2Fen_us%2Fblogs%2Fmask-gone-anonymous-leaders-left-big-footprint-online-030912&oq=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fthreatpost.com%2Fen_us%2Fblogs%2Fmask-gone-anonymous-leaders-left-big-footprint-online-030912&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=4796l8893l1l9242l8l6l1l0l0l0l158l652l4.2l7l0&gs_l=serp.3...4796l8893l1l9242l8l6l1l0l0l0l158l652l4j2l7l0&pbx=1 [googleusercontent.com]
"Anonymous's senior leadership" (Score:3)
Every time they make this claim, I can't help but giggle.
Re: (Score:2)
I know what you mean. It's a cell operation, with no true leadership elements, and the people / the number of people participating at any moment is in constant flux.
Trying to get that point across to the press is quite trying.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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You are optimistic. I give it 5 years before we all live behind digital walled gardens, tended by the feds.
Be sure to keep backups of tools... before they are gone.
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More of an iron curtain, than a walled garden, but yes.
They'll kill off this country, then move onto the next.
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Well SW engineering does become more and more important for real world systems
so I could positively see govs want to regulate you as they do with civil engineers..
Which really sucks because last time I looked at what the govt thought I could do
it was 100% incorrect.
Re:This is fucking retarded. (Score:5, Insightful)
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you suggesting that we don't need dozens of armed policemen and helicopters to arrest the owner of a website that facilitated the copying of copyrighted material!? Are you actually suggesting that murder is worse than 'hacking' a website or infringing upon someone's copyright and that perhaps these expensive investigations aren't necessary!?
How dare you!
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Are you insinuating that because there are worse crimes, we shouldn't enforce laws against the other crimes?
Because that would be a really, really stupid argument.
Re:This is fucking retarded. (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps he's insinuating that, if there's manpower to spare on either of those things, it should go to the more serious crimes. And the punishment should also fit the crime, and not be blown out of proportion.
Even if he's not insinuating that, perhaps I should do so.
Re:This is fucking retarded. (Score:5, Insightful)
You aren't even following your own thoughts to their logical conclusions.
So whenever we have manpower to spare for other things, it should be diverted to more serious crimes. That's what you're claiming -- I'm not even significantly changing your wording. Can you really not see that the ONLY possible outcome of that approach is having literally 100% of resources focused on whatever the single worst crime is? That until that outcome is reached, you can ALWAYS complain that we should take resources away from lesser crimes and focus them on worse ones?
Look, if you think hacking and piracy should be legal, come out and say it. Don't put forward these facile arguments that society is incapable of enforcing multiple laws at once.
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Following your own thoughts to their logical conclusion' seems to me to be your way of pulling off a bogus 'slippery slope' argument.
Commensurate response is what GP (or is it GGGP) was after.
Apprehending a hacker with no violent criminal priors shouldn't require helicopters AND swat teams.
Likewise, I won't complain as much if the current crop of Wall Street robber barons survive their day in court without a conviction. I'm just not fine with them not getting arrested or tried, despite incriminating eviden
Re: (Score:2)
you seem to forget something.
Justice is blind, but she loves the smell of money.
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Perhaps we are going about this the wrong way.
From now on, all wanna-be hackers need to sport .50 AWMs (loaded with armor-piercing rounds) and C4 minefields. If they (the various authorities abusing their power, hitherto known as "Betty") are not willing to show some restraint, perhaps the hackers need to level up their game to match the level of force employed.
The FBI Director's daily drive to his office should be as hazardous as a trip through some of the worse neighborhoods during the height of the war i
Re:This is fucking retarded. (Score:5, Funny)
Well, piracy is a problem for the Navy, not the FBI, so I don't see how is that relevant.
Lulzsec Overdrive (Score:2)
They are actually agents of wintermute, recruited in Chiba city, duped into doing the dirty work of an AI on the loose. This is best handled by the Turing authority.
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Society is incapable of enforcing multiple laws at once. The LEOs themselves have said as much.
And yes, the more serious crimes should be dealt with before the minor ones. The ones (in descending seriousness) being ones involving the loss of life, liberty, then property. Priorities, lets get some.
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Do most states even have actual speed limits? In my state, there are "speed limit" signs with numbers on them posted through the road system, but the actual state code uses language that suggests otherwise - the actual law is that drivers must drive at "reasonable and prudent" speeds, and that exceeding the posted limit is "prima facie" evidence of violation.
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Indeed. I think there are more people involved in busting a kid for copyright violations than the teams used with bringing down OBL.
Re:This is fucking retarded. (Score:4, Insightful)
Taking a website down costs the company money and we all know the governments, law makers and law enforcers are in the pockets of the big corporations.
On the other hand terrorists help to MAKE money for the corporations (arms, oil etc etc) so there is much less incentive to catch them.
Capitalism at it's finest.
Re:This is fucking retarded. (Score:5, Insightful)
We have people who are killing others. They are bombing innocents. They are threatening the security of the free World. And they are eluding authorities.
But God forbid you attack some Big Corps website and *gasp* force their website down! Then there's a HUGE manhunt to get those criminals!
Every one of these "law enforcement" officials should get a swift kick in the ass and their priorities straightened out.
You don't assign every police officer to murder cases and let cases of car theft go uninvestigated, do you? You don't spend all of your resources going after counterfeiters and ignore the guy stealing social security checks from peoples' mailboxes. The people going after Anonymous are specialized for this kind of investigation. It would be pointless to put them on an anti-terrorism investigation.
Re:This is fucking retarded. (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't assign every police officer to murder cases and let cases of car theft go uninvestigated, do you? You don't spend all of your resources going after counterfeiters and ignore the guy stealing social security checks from peoples' mailboxes.
No, but neither do you assign 1000% more funding to the social security check thieves than the anti-counterfeiting squad, and spend time training up all ten times more people to perform the former function than the latter.
Yes, those particular officers aren't interchangeable. That doesn't mean anti-piracy tunnel-vision isn't an endemic problem in US law enforcement.
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You don't assign every police officer to murder cases and let cases of car theft go uninvestigated, do you? You don't spend all of your resources going after counterfeiters and ignore the guy stealing social security checks from peoples' mailboxes.
No, but neither do you assign 1000% more funding to the social security check thieves than the anti-counterfeiting squad, and spend time training up all ten times more people to perform the former function than the latter.
Yes, those particular officers aren't interchangeable. That doesn't mean anti-piracy tunnel-vision isn't an endemic problem in US law enforcement.
What does LulzSec prosecutions have to do with anti-piracy? They weren't arrested for uploading music, they were arrested for hacking websites.
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"You don't assign every police officer to murder cases and let cases of car theft go uninvestigated, do you? "
So I can pull all the cops off of the murder cases to take down a serial jay walker?
Hey, Sarge! I need all the helicopter units, Yeah screw that missing child search, I got a hacker!
I'll agree with you when they stop being corporate enforcement puppets.
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free World
lol wut
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We have people who are killing others. They are bombing innocents. They are threatening the security of the free World. And they are eluding authorities.
But God forbid you attack some Big Corps website and *gasp* force their website down! Then there's a HUGE manhunt to get those criminals!
Every one of these "law enforcement" officials should get a swift kick in the ass and their priorities straightened out.
I fully agree with you that priorities need to be fixed. But this was easily predicted. You don't want Big Corps to focus on eliminating you, unless you have a death wish.
Re:This is fucking retarded. (Score:5, Insightful)
We have people who are killing others. They are bombing innocents. They are threatening the security of the free World. And they are eluding authorities.
But God forbid you attack some Big Corps website and *gasp* force their website down! Then there's a HUGE manhunt to get those criminals!
Every one of these "law enforcement" officials should get a swift kick in the ass and their priorities straightened out.
Right, because identity theft and monetary fraud should be ignored so long as there are murderers and rapists out there. And yes, the Lulzsec guys did, in fact, steal CC and SSN numbers and use them to commit fraud. Our present financial system, like it or not, is based around electronic identity and credit/debit. Comitting fraud like that destroys the trust in the system, which in turn contributes to economic insecurity for our entire economy.
Was what they did as bad as the CEOs of mega-corporations who gamed the system, or a random murderer? No. Was it illegal and destructive to society, and therefore worthy of prosecution? Yes. Perhaps more importantly, if they let these guys continue, it gives other hackers confidence to try the same thing, and you can bet they won't all restrict themselves to hacking Stratfor: very soon, it would be your bank and your money that gets stolen, potentially destroying your entire life. Lawlessness cannot be allowed to continue, or it will spread. It happens every time.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Well then the lesson seams to be if you are gaming the systems then aim for billions then in most cases you are not going to get punished :)
Also (Score:4, Insightful)
People who whine about the Big Corps and CEOs and all that seem to forget that quite often what they were doing was NOT illegal. You cannot punish someone ex post facto in the US. You can't say "What you were doing was perfectly legal when you did it, but now we want it to be illegal so we are going to punish you." That isn't just a concept in US law, it is one of those things made explicit by the constitution. Some of it is still legal now (like high frequency trading).
The feds do, in fact, go after CEOs engaged in illegal behaviour. Bernie Madoff would e the most high profile recent example, but there are more if you care to look in to it. They don't just go and arrest anyone that some random geeks feel were bad though.
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We have people who are killing others. They are bombing innocents. They are threatening the security of the free World. And they are eluding authorities.
But God forbid you attack some Big Corps website and *gasp* force their website down! Then there's a HUGE manhunt to get those criminals!
Every one of these "law enforcement" officials should get a swift kick in the ass and their priorities straightened out.
Maybe if they weren't such dumbasses they would be more concerned about actually getting evidence of criminal activity.
Anonymous could get the police agencies on their side. All they have to do is provide evidence that people in those big corporations are criminals.
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They got caught because they had a publicity department. They wanted the public to know what was going on. I don't think it is that hard to live a double life as long as you want to keep an aspect of your life secret.
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What for?
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Comply or Die. Dont dare to change the system or the system will erase you.
Yes just like in the Soviet Union or in the USA during the 60s.
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Oh, the system can change, but it prefers that you change instead.