Facebook Wins $873 Million Lawsuit Against Spammer 128
damn_registrars writes "A US District judge has awarded $873 million dollars to Facebook in a default judgment against a spammer who sent messages to Facebook users about drugs and sex. This is the highest award so far in a civil suit under the CAN-SPAM Act."
It's too much to discourage anyone. (Score:5, Insightful)
Except it won't. It's too much. Basic psychology dictates that once you get above a certain risk people will start to ignore it because there's no difference between that and "everything". For people who don't have a great deal to start with losing everything isn't that big a deal. An amount that's a real tangible quantity that someone could conceivably earn is actually a bigger discouragement because people can imagine losing it, and that will put them off because if they can imagine themselves earning it they can envisage themselves losing it.
I'm not suggesting that it should have been any lower of course. I just think we need to be pragmatic about what a punishment is. If we want it to be something that puts other people off doing the same thing then we could think up something better.
Re:It's too much to discourage anyone. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:It's too much to discourage anyone. (Score:5, Informative)
TFA specifically stated that the suit was filed "against Adam Guerbuez of Montreal and his business." Not having read the actual case file, I'm just going to assume that Facebook did file a suit against both Guerbuez AND his business. In such a case, I don't know if he can just hide behind his corporation (if it is incorporated).
IIRC, in Canada, if you are ordered to pay damages, the court order is permanent until you manage to pay it off or you die. The order survives through bankruptcy, so you can't just declare and have it magically wiped away. Does anyone know whether the U.S. has a similar system?
Re:It's too much to discourage anyone. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:It's too much to discourage anyone. (Score:4, Funny)
You, Sir, are now my official in rem collateral discharged child support super-hero!
Oh and IANAL but I don't belive that YANAL.
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Oh and IANAL but I don't belive that YANAL.
You are right, I don't ANAL but I correctly guessed that you ANAL.
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Oh and IANAL but I don't belive that YANAL.
I can believe he isn't a lawyer. Most laywers would add a tagline to a post like that claiming this should "not be considered legal advice." My brother-in-law (who is a lawyer) does that every time we discuss anything legal, since he isn't licensed in my state.
A real lawyer covers his/her ass!
Re:It's too much to discourage anyone. (Score:4, Funny)
Holy shit, my brain.
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Chapter 7 (which is much harder to file now because of recent revisions to US bankruptcy law sponsored by credit card companies)
Chapter 7s are still quite easy to get. They've just added the means test. If your income is above the median income for your area, you're forced into chapter 13. (11 is for corporations) This is no problem at all though. All you have to do is engineer a job loss. Then you have no income. Of course, you'll have a hard time paying your bills without a job, which is probably
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Mmmm not quite. If you go bankrupt, all your debs go away.... except!... debs to the government of course :) There are other problem after that anyway, like getting your credit back...
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You know this does not apply for incorporated businesses...right,right!!!!
Re:It's too much to discourage anyone. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:It's too much to discourage anyone. (Score:5, Funny)
i found a loophole! the constitution only prohibits "cruel and unusual punishment." therefore, if you call it a prize/reward instead of a punishment, then you can make it as cruel and unusual as you want! right?
congratulations Mr. Guerbuez,
you have been selected as the winner of the Philip Lemarchand [wikipedia.org] Puzzle Box Sweepstakes. as the grand prize recipient, you are being granted the once in a lifetime opportunity to experience the full gamut of hedonistic pleasures that the Lament Configuration [wikipedia.org] has to offer. so get ready, because we are sending you on an all-expenses-paid vacation for one through the dimensional Schism [wikipedia.org] to visit all of your favorite Cenobites [wikipedia.org].
here's what you can expect from this all-inclusive vacation of unspeakable horrors(TM):
* - comes with a free face-lift.
disclaimer: all prizes are final and mandatory. extradimensional vacations not redeemable for cash and no substitutes are allowed. limited time offer expires 01/01/2012.
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Excellent plan, but there may be another loophole if that one proves impractical. You say that "cruel and unusual punishment" is prohibited, so presumably either cruel or unusual punishment is fine.
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I hate spammers. I think the punishment should be really cruel..!
We should force the spammers to read each and every character/mail of all the spams that they ever mailed. Hopefully, with all the spelling mistakes they make, they will really get frustrated with themselves and commit suicide.
Re:It's too much to discourage anyone. (Score:5, Insightful)
Closing a company and starting it over in a new name isn't a deterrent. It's a business plan these guys have. Put the owner in the nick for a few months, and I bet he starts chirping a different tune.
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"You know, I reckon it would have been much much better to shut the company down (yes the millions of dollars damages will shut it down and facebook might get a few grand out of it) but I say put the spammers into jail for a bit. Not over the top, but say six months?"
-SIX MONTHS?!?! I hope you mean, "six months in Guantanamo Bay" or "six months in San Quentin" or "six months of waterboarding". Six months in a minimum-security "Fed Club-Med" as punishment for spamming is doing them a favor.
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While I agree with the sentiments, it won't deter anyone.
They'll just pay a nobody $50 to put their name on the door as the "owner" and then provide "consultancy" services to "the company" and charge "the company" %100 of the profit. Then they're simply a HR company, and Joe Patsy takes the fall.
They might even get a tax break for running the company at a loss ;-)
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Six months in prison is a long tiome for a crime that caused no physical harm to anyone.
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Care to explain how "no physical harm" means "no substantial harm"?
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Here's an idea: use the government's statistical valuation of a human life (it's fallen recently to $6.9 million according to the NY Post) as a conversion unit of these massive financial judgments.
So a judgment of over $800 million is tantamount to killing 100 people. This is not really that far fetched, since $800 million could be used to save the lives of far more than 100 people - within the US too, without even resorting to saving starving folks in developed countries.
So, convert this $800+ million cha
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*value from: http://blogs.computerworld.com/fighting_software_piracy_with_shaky_studies [computerworld.com]
A bailout (Score:2)
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"Basic psychology dictates that once you get above a certain risk people will start to ignore it..."
Bah and rubbish. Firstly, the "nothing to lose" is normally related in discussions about starving thieves and rapists vs the death penalty. It has nothing at all to do with monetary fines that stack based on repeat offenses... especially completely something completely voluntary like flooding someone's computer with spam. You could accidentally run a red light and get caught and fined, but you're never going
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I just think we need to be pragmatic about what a punishment is. If we want it to be something that puts other people off doing the same thing then we could think up something better.
How about a drop of blood? That's all, just one drop of blood.
...per delivery.
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Freedom's just another word for nothing left to loose. - Janis Joplin
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Losing everything you own and having a permanent lien against everything you will ever make for the rest of your life turns out to be a relatively effective deterrent.
Re:It's too much to discourage anyone. (Score:4, Funny)
So you suggest..what? String 'em up?
You damn liberals always want to be nice to the bad guys!!
I suggest we slice out their innards and then string 'em up!
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You damn liberals always want to be nice to the bad guys!!
I suggest we slice out their innards and then string 'em up!
This witch hunt lacks fire...
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You damn liberals always want to be nice to the bad guys!!
I suggest we slice out their innards and then string 'em up!
This witch hunt lacks fire...
String them up WITH their innards, then light their innards on FIRE!!!
enough fire for your witch hunt yet?
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Prolly need to set the tree they're strung up to on fire as well.
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Why are you modding the parent funny? The guy's serious!
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Clearly they should be fed through a meat grinder, their remains mixed with salt, water, sugar, and sodium nitrite [wikipedia.org] and then sealed in a large aluminum container to preserve freshness for all eternity!
* All justice strictly poetic in nature; no real or legal justice is implied
This is one of those "statement awards" (Score:5, Funny)
but from what I've seen, they get overturned, brought down to a reasonable level, or end upo being way more than the person can afford... which actually doesnt send a very good statement at all.
On the other hand... screw it, take his kidney.
Re:This is one of those "statement awards" (Score:5, Funny)
On the other hand... screw it, take his kidney.
If they use an anesthetic, it's not really cruel, is it?
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Re:This is one of those "statement awards" (Score:4, Funny)
If he's into sex and drugs, his kidney is probably not very valuable. If only he had stuck with rock-and-roll...
Wow (Score:2)
According to court documents, he did this in part by fraudulently gaining access to "legitimate" Facebook user accounts, either by phishing to gain login information or acquiring it from third parties.
"It's unlikely that Guerbuez and Atlantis Blue Capital could ever honor the judgment rendered against them (though we will certainly collect everything we can)," said Facebook. "But we are confident that this award represents a powerful deterrent to anyone and everyone who would seek to abuse Facebook and its users."
Roll over and take it, eh facebook users?
Re:Wow (Score:5, Funny)
Yep, and take photos of it.
And then post those photos.
And tag the participants.
And set up a group for Rollers-over-and-Takers-of-It.
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The invites will read 'Joseph just posted something dirty about your mother in large block letters on the side of a building, go find out what it was, and get revenge!!!'
Irony? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Irony? (Score:5, Insightful)
Since you added them as friends, and can control what you see from each user, it's not really "Spam", is it?
Your half-hearted attempt to be a cool hater is recognized, but ultimately fails.
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Since you added them as friends, and can control what you see from each user, it's not really "Spam", is it?
Your half-hearted attempt to be a cool hater is recognized, but ultimately fails.
Amen, Reverend.
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This is not spam any more. This is now "officially" (as official as internet meme's can get) called "BACN" [saasu.com]
I don't get it (Score:2, Funny)
CAN-SPAM or CAN'T-SPAM?
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No, see it's like putting the meat-like product back in the...well, you see, it's a verb that means the process of canning, and, uh,
Cue Mark Hamill as the Joker: "If you have to explain a joke, it's not funny!"
Should we celebrate? The same as Spamhaus? (Score:5, Insightful)
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> Is this so much different from the much-derided judgment against Spamhaus?
Yes. It is quite possible that a Canadian court will honor the judgement and Facebook will be able to bankrupt the guy.
I suppose we know how to fill in #2 (Score:5, Insightful)
2) ???
3) Profit
Re:I suppose we know how to fill in #2 (Score:5, Insightful)
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Profit (Score:1)
Its about the only way those losers will make money...
"said Facebook" (Score:5, Funny)
I am not sure why, but I find it comical that "Facebook" said something... although it would have been funnier had it said "blah blah blah," posted Facebook on the Associated Press's wall.
the story (Score:2)
SAN JOSE, Calif. (AP) -- Facebook has won a $873 million judgment against a Canadian man who bombarded users with millions of unsolicited messages about drugs and sex.
U.S. District Judge Jeremy Fogel signed the default judgment Friday, resolving a lawsuit that Facebook filed in August against Adam Guerbuez of Montreal and his business, Atlantis Blue Capital.
Facebook alleged that Guerbuez had fooled users into revealing their passwords so he could send out more than 4 million messages that included promotions for marijuana. Guerbuez could not be located for comment.
The Palo Alto, Calif.-based company predicted the judgment will be difficult to collect, but is hoping that its size discourages future abuses at its site.
- that fine is impossible to collect, forget about 'difficult', the schmuck certainly doesn't have money like that, or he wouldn't be in this busines. Still, it is nice to see that American corporation can win something like that against a Canadian citizen. Now how about the rest of the spammers? Can you please PLEASE win a lawsuit against those Nigerians! AND THEY CAN PAY!!! They have so many billions it's not funny.
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you are probably right, but he better never step onto US territory.
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$873 million you say? Really? (Score:3, Insightful)
Reminds me of companies saying how hackers cost them gazillions of dollars because they copied a manual or some dumb shit back in the late 80s/early 90s.
Guess I'm a cynic about any judgements being made by non technical people on technical issues. Not that spam is rocket surgery....
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Not that spam is rocket surgery....
...rocket surgery?
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I believe he is talking about a vasectomy.
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Further reporting of this, especially from Canadian news outlets, go into much further detail regarding this aspect of the court judgement.
The Globe And Mail [theglobeandmail.com] have a particularly good quote from one of the Facebook reps:
Wow! (Score:2)
Facebook Wins $873 Million Lawsuit Against Spammer
Isn't that only like half the valuation of your average dot-com startup in 1998?
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Actually Facebook's valuation is nominally $15 billion (according to Microsoft's investment) so all they need to do is win 15 more of these lawsuits and it'll be almost justified :-)
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But does it come in the shade of ridiculous (Score:4, Insightful)
SAN JOSE, Calif. (AP) â" Facebook has won a $873 million judgment against a Canadian man who bombarded users with millions of unsolicited messages about drugs and sex.
U.S. District Judge Jeremy Fogel signed the default judgment Friday, resolving a lawsuit that Facebook filed in August against Adam Guerbuez of Montreal and his business, Atlantis Blue Capital.
Facebook alleged that Guerbuez had fooled users into revealing their passwords so he could send out more than 4 million messages that included promotions for marijuana. Guerbuez could not be located for comment.
The Palo Alto, Calif.-based company predicted the judgment will be difficult to collect, but is hoping that its size discourages future abuses at its site.
So the standard cost of a foreigner sending me spam is ~$200 per message if they don't show up to court?
Also Facebook, please don't file lawsuits that you don't expect to have any direct impact. The courts are busy enough without you.
Judgment Not Worth the Paper It's Printed On (Score:4, Interesting)
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except there's a name, adam guerbuez. just a tad different.
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Because if I were the spammer, I sure as heck wouldn't be using my real name to get the job done.
Re:Judgment Not Worth the Paper It's Printed On (Score:4, Interesting)
> This is a default judgment against a foreign entity which undoubtedly is nothing more
> than an empty shell corporation with no assets.
The judgement was awarded against the spammer personally as well as against his "company" which FaceBook's lawyers say is fictitious.
> There is a reason they didn't bother to come and defend this action - the judgment is
> uncollectable.
FaceBook's lawyers say otherwise. They say they know who he is, where he is, that he has substantial assets, and that they intend to take those assets.
Enfoecement (Score:5, Funny)
The next lawsuit. (Score:2, Insightful)
Maybe they will sue the creators of all those applications that do nothing but spew out invites...
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In a fair world (Score:2, Funny)
Right?
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$8 a person? A class-action payout if ever I've seen one.
Coincidence? (Score:5, Funny)
In a strange coincidence, the odds of Facebook collecting any money from the spammer are also 873-million to one.
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Who gets the money? (Score:5, Interesting)
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If the spammer can actually be made to pay that much, it would work well as punitive damages.
Of course, given the likely source of the spammer's revenues, I dunno how easy it will be to collect off of funds that will likely be subject to forfeiture under racketeering.
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CAN-SPAM (Score:1)
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It could still count as harassment and system resource abuse.
Is this the Crazypricks.com guy? (Score:3, Interesting)
Same name, same city.
This is a story from 2003 http://www.montrealmirror.com/ARCHIVES/2003/091803/news2.html
Why? (Score:2, Insightful)
Why would facebook get any money? Facebook didn't get the spam, their users did. That money should be awarded to the facebook users who actually received the spam. Facebook users should file lawsuits against Facebook for getting that spam. Seems they would have a good chance of winning since Facebook set the precedence with their win.
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heh (Score:2, Insightful)
Jolly good luck collecting.
First of all, this guy had the sleaze not to bother showing up in court.
Second of all, he most likely is unreachable
Third, if he ever is found, most of his spamming revenues are likely to be subject to forfeiture on grounds of racketeering, leaving doubts as to how much will be left for Facebook to collect.
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First of all, this guy had the sleaze not to bother showing up in court.
Forgetting the actual details of the case for a minute...What possible motivation would any individual have to go to a foreign country, to fight a lawsuit filed in that foreign country, by a company based in that foreign country, unless they were compelled to through an extradition process or to protect financial interests ? Absolutely none.
Why didn't Facebook sue him in Canada instead? At least he may have been compelled to show up.
How naive of me... (Score:1)
Does this mean... (Score:1)
... Facebook has finally found a business model?
Facebook are spammers themselves (Score:1)
I find this quite absurd, since Facebook build their business model on harvesting email addresses and spamming themselves. But for some unknown reason they seem to be more "acceptable" to the general public than an average Viagra scumbag. Why?
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I'm pretty sure FB is loving this because they have got to be strapped for cash without any real business plan.
What you mean providing a psuedo geocities/flickr/youtube/email service isn't going to make you money?
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I think you've confused Facebook with Twitter. I don't know whether Facebook is profitable or not, but they definitely have a business plan.
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Now they need to figure out how to get Win or dows in the name.
1) Change name to Facedows or WinBook.
2) Get sued [wikipedia.org].
3) Profit!