FTC to Scrutinize Contactless Payment Technology 103
coondoggie writes to tell us that the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) will be taking a look at contactless payment systems and the consumer protection issue surrounding them. "RFID technology provides obvious benefits, the FTC said. For example, the ability of producers using RFID to track exactly where in the supply chain their products are and by which retailer they were ultimately sold to a consumer has the potential to make product recalls more effective. However, there also may be costs regarding consumers' individual privacy rights associated with it."
Hmmm (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Hmmm (Score:5, Informative)
IAACPRC (contract postal retail clerk)
Express Mail gets lost. Trust me, I've had it happen once or twice in my two years' work at a contract postal unit (meaning I work for a business which runs a USPS-funded post office) because EMS is just like any other of the "usual" services - Delivery/Signature Confirmation, Certified Mail, Insured Mail. These barcoded services are traceable, but only at certain points, and in some cases (e.g. DC and Certified) USPS only guarantees you'll get a delivery scan; intermediate scans are basically a "courtesy" to the customer. The only advantage of EMS is it includes $100 of insurance and it's scanned in at every stopping point.
If you really don't want something to get lost, send it Registered Mail. Registered stuff doesn't get lost; it's someone's job, because they can literally narrow it down to one employee who last had the item in their possession. Every employee who takes a registered item into possession has to sign for it, so there's a traceable system of receipts linking an item to an employee from acceptance to delivery.
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It's against the rules, but they do it. I've had things say they were delivered at 9am, yet my carrier doesn't arrive until after noon. Without the registered mail envelope no less (it got lost somewhere in between).
My wife's mot
Re:Hmmm (Score:4, Interesting)
The time they scan it in is beside the point. (In fact there was an investigation into our branch office for doing just that -- scanning mail as delivered without actually delivering it or scanning as delivered prior to actual delivery.) The problem is that employees, contracted or federal, can steal any mailpiece except for registered mail and possibly get away with it because of how many hands it can change between scans. When every change of hands requires a physical record and signature, which only happens with reg mail, it's impossible to game the system -- USPS points the finger at the last employee who signed for the mailpiece. And yes, I've had to track down seemingly lost registered mail by calling each office where the piece stopped, inquiring based on lock and seal numbers kept in paper records. That's why I argue registered mail just doesn't get lost; no one wants a lost mailpiece pinned on them.
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What I don't get... (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of the world is using chip+PIN, which while not perfect is still drastically better than what we've got, can't be sniffed from remote, is much more of a distinct action and has a huge install base.
I'm not sure what this obsession with RFID payment methods is.
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I don't like entering the PIN where it can be seen.
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Re:What I don't get... (Score:5, Funny)
But, now that I have these two wonderful hands, covering up my PIN is one of the things I can use them for.
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It's all part of His system of intelligent design.
</sarcasm>
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And they have at least 3 angles to look from.
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That's the whole point of the system. Unless you get mugged by the security guard watching the cameras, you shouldn't have too much to worry about.
(And like the other poster said, it's pretty trivial to cover the number pad with your other hand)
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http://www.informationweek.com/news/mobility/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199500385 [informationweek.com]
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Modify an ATM's card reader with a second card reader on top of the first. install Hidden camera with transmitter overlooking the atm keypad.
Sit outside with the receiver setup/ or dump the receiver set to record everything into the convent trash can.
people use ATM the camera only records motion and records pin's while the card reader records cards.
Later gather the data by taking entire trash bag containing receiver. you can make generic cards easily enough. Walk up to another ATM with your g
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If the gas station attendant wanted a cut of the cards gotten they could even set it up.
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This only seems slightly less plausible than cracking open an ATM, installing a reader and sticking up a camera near by, as suggested by other posters.
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Security cameras don't watch you (Score:3, Informative)
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Lower repair costs. (Score:1)
A chip and pin terminal is more like the regular debit card consoles we already have. Swipe the card (failure point), punch in 4 digits (4 failure points) and it contacts the bank (one failure point).
In theory, RFID payment cards mean fewer repairs on all the machines out there.
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Re:Lower repair costs. (Score:5, Interesting)
Banks, contrary to what they advertise and tell you, do not give a rats ass if someone steals your money or identity. So they will do as little as possible to make sure information is secure. If it costs them money, they will do everything possible to not do it.
The RFID based card system has even died. Most banks did not offer the cards and almost every store and restaurant I saw that had the readers installed now have them removed, almost everyone is abandoning it. Glad to see the government researching a dead technology. I wonder when they will research if the 6809 processor is safe for use in space.
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Banks, contrary to what they advertise and tell you, do not give a rats ass if someone steals your money or identity. So they will do as little as possible to make sure information is secure. If it costs them money, they will do everything possible to not do it.
Except, of course, that the cost of card fraud is borne by the card issuer, not the cardholder. VISA and MC both lose a lot of money each year due to fraud, and you can bet your buttons they're doing something about it.
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Except, of course, that the cost of card fraud is borne by the merchant, not the card issuer.
Fixed.
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The iButton [maxim-ic.com] looks like it can do pretty much everything RFID can, without the risk of sniffing.
Three P's and you're out. (Score:1, Informative)
I do like their products for some things and they do promote them well with hobbyists. Their prices are painful though.
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Re:What I don't get... (Score:5, Insightful)
It is realy social security all over again. Americans have to pay less taxes, because they don't spend so much on keeping the poor of the street. The money they spend on guns, alarm systems, private security is conveniently forgotten. I mean tax is like, well..tax. The fact that you pay for armed security every time you buy a tshirt in the mall, well that is not tax now is it?
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Right concept, wrong place. Considering the deployment cost of a POS terminal, an RFID-based, cas
Re:What I don't get... (Score:4, Insightful)
The thing is, the credit card companies don't care at all about security, but they actually do "C"---make the vendors bear the cost of security. Your card gets stolen and used, they refund the money and reverse the charge and the vendor eats the cost of not verifying the identity of their customers. In the end, everyone pays for it through higher prices for goods and services, but the CC companies don't care about that because they aren't out anything and don't have to answer to cardholders when the price of food goes up a penny due to credit card theft. The costs are so small in the grand scheme of things that for the most part, the customer doesn't notice or care. (If theft increases by two or three orders of magnitude, that will likely change, of course.)
If the credit card companies cared at all about security, they would have solved the problem completely by now; it is trivially solvable. Instead of using a static RFID chip with an identifier on it, they would use an active device. When you make a transaction, the reader would make the request to the CC company. The CC company would generate a large random number. The card would then encrypt that random number with a secret key and return the result along with a card number (which should NOT be the same as the number on the card to prevent people from using the data to make fake non-RFID cards). The CC company, knowing the private key, would then encrypt the number with the secret key, and if the values match, the card is the real card. At that point, only physical theft would matter, and the whole theft-by-wire would cease to be an issue..
More to the point, such a system would also not be vulnerable to interception and replay attacks because the CC computers would send a different random number every time. In effect, if deployed universally, such a solution would eliminate all credit card theft except for that which occurs through physical assault or somebody leaving a card at a restaurant. Of course, for online purchases, this would mean that everyone would need some sort of home equivalent of the transaction device, but that could be as simple as a $10 USB dongle and some software.
The fact that most (all?) cards still don't work this way is ample proof that the CC industry doesn't care. The whole design of the current system is to basically have the RFID data stream look almost exactly like a credit card magstripe so that they don't have to do any extra work and can pass the data through existing legacy systems without bringing them into the 21st century. As long as the primary focus of RFID-based credit cards is on minimizing the cost of upgrading the infrastructure, they will always represent a security hole the size of a planet.
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Now I under I could be mistatken in my assumption you ment social programs rathen then state sponsored security in the form of police officers to arrest people when talked about getting the poor office the steet.
Re:What I don't get... (Score:4, Insightful)
Doesn't wear out. (Score:2)
I've heard that at least some of the touch-and-pay systems aren't just passive RFID, but use a challenge-response system which would actually more be secure than a credit card, since the merchant / snooper never sees your card number. If I can verify this then I definitely will be getting one.
So sure, maybe theoretically someone could
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I'm not sure what this obsession with RFID payment methods is.
Call me cynical, but I imagine the conversation went something like this:
Big time retail exec: "I don't want a damn PIN code getting in the way of IMPULSE BUYING!!! The cost of fraud is nothing compared to the upsells we'll be getting if we just make it 2 seconds easier to purchase, with no chance of someone getting a bad pin and reconsidering their purchase of that palette of gummy bears! Do you know what our MARGIN on gummy bears is???"
Too bad the FTC can't investigate the State Dept.. (Score:2)
Perhaps we should just all switch to carrying aluminum foil wallets and purses around...
Re:Too bad the FTC can't investigate the State Dep (Score:2, Informative)
We are too lazy.. (Score:5, Insightful)
And all this about inventory tracking is kind of an orthogonal point to payment isn't it? I for one certainly don't mind them being able to wave rfid wands around a vague area and account for an entire big package without having to scan a unique barcode for every item. I wouldn't mind a checkout system where they didn't even need to find the upc (or for that matter, could scan the whole cart in one go instead of item by item). However, I don't see the big benefit of avoiding physical contact with my payment device (which I wish was more technically secure than my mag-stripe credit card).
Re:We are too lazy.. (Score:5, Funny)
PIN pads are the next great threat facing your health and the health of your children. Did you hear me? These things could KILL your CHILDREN! You mustn't touch them! You must carry around the econo-size hand sanitizer and use it every time you come within 30 feet of a PIN pad or anyone who has recently used a PIN pad.
For more on this and other everyday items that can KILL your CHILDREN, watch Action News at 10, with weather from Skip Stormy and the DopplerXtreme 6000.
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Are you crazy?! Payment devices like PIN pads are cesspools of dangerous germs! They have 3,000 times more germs than a toilet seat, and touching them quintuples your chances of contracting horrible diseases like West Nile virus or the Bubonic Plague.
PIN pads are the next great threat facing your health and the health of your children. Did you hear me? These things could KILL your CHILDREN! You mustn't touch them! You must carry around the econo-size hand sanitizer and use it every time you come within 30 feet of a PIN pad or anyone who has recently used a PIN pad.
For more on this and other everyday items that can KILL your CHILDREN, watch Action News at 10, with weather from Skip Stormy and the DopplerXtreme 6000.
nahh just cary around a big can of lysol.. or jsut alwasy ware rubber gloves.. i bet the person at the register would look at you funny.. and i question weather the person behind you would use it after you .. could be fun
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Nope -- if you wear rubber gloves, you are also avoiding leaving fingerprints, so you obviously have something to hide -- ergo, terrorist.
(And come on, man....."cary?" "Jsut?" "Alwasy ware?" How many seconds does it take to do a little proofreading?)
Re:We are too lazy.. (Score:4, Insightful)
I think the (only real) benefit is the ability to get away from card-shaped items and allow key-fobs and the like. Technically, the RFID chip could be put in a ring, bracelet, or on a key chain, etc...
I'm not saying all this is/would be better and I certainly don't have any problem yanking out and swiping my CC when I want to buy something.
One Fob, Two Fob, Red Fob, Blue Fob (Score:2)
So, if I swing my key chain containing my RFID credit card fobs in the vicinity of the checkout reader... how do I make it scan my American Express(r) card fob instead of my Visa(r) card fob instead of my... ???!!!?
It's not uncommon to see someone open their wallet to reveal a dozen or more credit cards.
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You're giving the CC vendors too much credit (so to speak). Hell Blockbuster sent me a little "key chain" card - like I rent soooo often that I need the damn thing on my key chain. Or the Exxon SpeedPass fob... They're thinking of the advertising potential. Companies only offer things that they thi
One Fob to Rule Them All (Score:1)
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Track this back.
"When doing anything that requires physical transation of cash is too much work and we'd rather risk out financial info being stolen because its on a little plastic card, we have serious issues."
"When doing anything that requires physical transation of goods and property is too much work and we'd rather risk our wealth being stolen because its in an easily transportable paper form, we have serious issues."
This is an arguement by current position, in which new technology seems unnecessary
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It's really not quite that simple. (Score:2)
There is a qualitative difference there. Gold -> paper and cash -> credit both significantly increase the amount of money (or access to money) you can reasonably carry on your person. The only difference with an RFID vs mag-stripe is whether you have to swipe or wave vaguely in the general direction of the reader.
Dan Aris
Re:We are too lazy.. (Score:4, Insightful)
I wouldn't mind contactless payment via RFID, as long as the chip in each item I bought is disbled as I check out and leave the store.
You sir are my hero... (Score:3, Funny)
I'm the same way..
Sean
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A gallon of milk: $3.29 on debit Mastercard
A box of sugary breakfast cereal: $4.59 on debit Mastercard
Paying cash for those items just to be different: priceless.
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Re:We are too lazy.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe with RFID being used the entire trip from maker to deliverer to stock boy to shelf to checkout then they can keep the prices updated better, but until I see it, I doubt my wife or people like her will end up using any less time at the checkout for this reason.
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Personally (Score:5, Insightful)
And yes, I abhor the idea of RFIDs in passports too. I'll cover it in tin foil, along with my head.
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Re:Personally (Score:4, Insightful)
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While I'm not big on the idea of wireless payment (in this form anyways), the danger of an RFID tag in your wallet being randomly sniffed is almost nothing.
This is certainly true now, but there's also no incentive to go the extra mile for RFID tag reading. Don't you think that making credit card info available on the airwaves would encourage more sophisticated RFID readers?
I've heard stories of thieves putting fake mag-stripe readers on top of ATMs, which leads me to think that RFID payment would be a criminal's dream come true.
RFID tech is full of holes security wise. (Score:2)
So roll on RFID everywhere, let the crooks benefit, just like with DRM.
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RFID chips can be encrypted, and the read-distance of the chips are directly proportional to the size of the antenna on the chip.
Not to mention the fact that (unless the banks are dumb as fuck) the RFID chip itself will just have a generic ID pointing to an entry in a database somewhere, not the account number itself.
The only hole in security I can think of at the moment is that the chip can be read without you knowing, which won't in itself be useful unless the criminal has breached other
Octopus (Score:5, Insightful)
Super convenient. My wife put hers in her purse, I put mine in my wallet. Going somewhere on the subway? Just pull out my wallet, slap it on the reader, and I'm through the gate. My wife could just wave her purse across the reader without even taking it off her arm (assuming the card was in her wallet near the bottom of the bag - it seemed to have a useful range of only 3-4 inches). No searching around for the right card, no worrying about losing the ride card between stops, just slap it down and it automatically calculates the fare and deducts from the amount on the card. When you need to increase or recharge the value on the card, you just take it to the recharge machine, pop it in, and put in a few dollars (or credit/atm card, whatever).
In HK the cards are accepted on pretty much all forms of mass transit (trains, subway, buses) as well as at an increasing number of convenience (too many 7-Elevens) and other stores (and supposedly taxis are supposed to be accepting them soon).
I think this is really the ideal use for contactless payment. Basically a replacement for carrying cash around, used to pay for the multitude of small-ticket items and services that you make use of during the day. We do it here in California with FasTrak for paying tolls, but there are a lot of other potential uses. It also makes particular sense for transit, where it not only works to make the actual payment but also replaces the need for a fare ticket, doing the journey tracking by itself. These types of uses also in many respects counter some of the privacy concerns - if you're worried about someone tracking what you are doing, you can always just use cash to increase your balance on your card, or even get a new card every time rather than recharge (though that seems wasteful). Requiring recharge, rather than tying it directly to a bank account, also means that you only ever have to worry about the amount you put on the card. Just like carrying cash around, but more convenient.
On the other hand, I really don't see any reason to have an RFID-enabled credit card. If I could use a cash card for small purchases then I'd only be using a credit card for larger ones; the few times a week (or whatever) I'm doing this it really isn't a hardship to have to pull out a card.
I think there are some awesome, efficient, all-around great reasons to introduce contactless payment systems for some purposes. However, due to privacy and security concerns (and the lack of any real advantage) I don't see why anyone would want something like an RFID-equipped credit card. Too much potential for abuse, with little or no real benefit (to the individual - no doubt businesses would find all sorts of fun uses for cards tied to individual people that they can remotely sniff).
Re:Octopus (Score:4, Funny)
luckily I didn't learn this from experience, but word of mouth.
Blip-pocketing? (Score:2)
I'm a big fan of new technology, the higher the better, but let's just hope that if implemented, it's implemented by those with the most to lose (e.g. banks) rather than those with the most to gain (e.g. legislators).
No Scrutiny please! (Score:3, Funny)
I renewed a Slashdot subscription this morning by sticking the card in front of my computer. I have a USB based reader connected to my computer to make secure transactions. At no point does it transmit the information in plain-text. I'll do it right now to show how useful this is. Here is the actual output:
Card Holder Name:
John Doe
Credit Card Number:
1234 5678 9123 4567
Expiry date:
01/2080
See, what is wrong with that? I think this is a great technology. FTC, Buzz off!
Octopus card payment is 11 years old... (Score:1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_card [wikipedia.org]
old Technology (Score:2)
We've had a form of contactless payments for years.
Put the cash in an unmarked paper bag and we'll call back with instructions on where to drop it.