Verizon vs. the Needham Fire Department 195
netbuzz writes "At issue is whether — or not — there was a minor fire in a house on Pine Grove Street in Needham, Mass., caused by a Verizon employee drilling through an electrical main. Everyone agrees that whatever happened — or didn't happen — was indeed the fault of the Verizon employee; it's "fire or no fire" that is at issue. Verizon says no fire, not even smoke. The Needham Fire Department begs to differ. New eye-witness reports are emerging ... and it's not looking good for Verizon."
wow (Score:3, Insightful)
News at 11 (Score:5, Funny)
Re:wow (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:wow (Score:4, Funny)
Re:wow (Score:4, Funny)
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only companies that don't have backup power. my office could go for about 2 weeks without the power grid, longer if we can get diesel delivered. we're the phone company and we have big-ass generators to run the phone systems and all the other office stuff.
Re:wow (Score:4, Funny)
Turns out there was an 100+ year old pipe under the watermain that nobody had been using or known about. The little water leak washed out the soil under the pipe, and while they were trying to figure out what it was the pipe cracked and someone screamed "GAAAAS!". Not 15 seconds after that, the entire Lee Rd. was lit up with 15' tall flames that I could feel well over 500' away on the corner of my street. Houses and the local video store were completely melted on the sides as well as the walgreens and 7-11.
So yea. This stuff happens. All the more reason why we should have open and accessible standards and records.
Today this should NOT BE HAPPENING (Score:3, Interesting)
There is no reason that a city can't create a system such that the workers carry with them a GPS-enabled mapping device that can show them EXACTLY what is under them ANYWHERE.
In fact such a system should be federally mandated as mandatory. I hear way too many stories like this.
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I can imagine it might be even worse in some areas of Europe.
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A few years back, a neighbor was getting broadband installed. They "called miss dig" and the yard got flagged for the underground electrical - however, it was old so the depth was not normal, so they flagged it clearly as "hand dig only".
The contractor showed up and proceeded to run his horizontal boring rig straight into the power feed and fried every piece of electrical equipment in the house.
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Now, if several groups people would take the time to do the research in all the existing records, then back it up with some ground penetrating radar, and finally create a visual database (say a utilities version of google maps) that would be easil
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This is NOT about UNDERGROUND Utilities (Score:2, Informative)
There REALLY is no excuse for this since an AC finder tool is relatively inexpensive and readily available.
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I can't say that the marking system works too well, though. My father, in the process of putting in a drainage ditch, discovered that the people marking his lawn used metal detectors to find the lines that they already had map references to. What the map did not show was that the g
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There are numerous reasons why such devices are near useless in many localities. Here's a couple simple ones.
- Some pipes/conduits are very old and even if their location was recorded properly (50, 60, 100 years ago), their referentials are no longer in the same place (for instance, pipe, 30' North off-center of road - for a road surface that has changed during that time due to simple things, like over-paving an edge by a few feet, or no curb/curb-line causing each subsequent re-pave to change the road dim
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Near where I live some construction people severed an electric main while digging for the foundations of a new building and the whole city was left without power. Okay, that happens, to err is human, etc. The WTF part of this story is that these people, after severing a cable and seeing every light in the city around them wink out, didn't think to tell the power company (or anyone else for that matter) what had happened and where the fault was. It took 6 hours to get the power restored, all because these la
Re:wow (Score:5, Funny)
I'm sure if the guy would have hit a wire, electrocuted himself and fell off the ladder you would have read about him suing me.
Re:wow (Score:5, Funny)
Re:wow (Score:4, Funny)
Believe it or not, this happens more often than you might think. The only difference is: this one got national attention somehow.
Maybe if it had happened in Billerica instead of Needham it would have appeared on PBS. "On Tonight's episode of This Old House - what happens when you drill through an electrical main."
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I can't imagine it's any better for someone who isn't familiar with the house at all!
I'm Sorry (Score:2, Interesting)
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Re:I'm Sorry (Score:5, Insightful)
One reason the Armed Services have trouble operating jointly is that they have very different meanings for the same terms.
The Joint Chiefs once told the Navy to "secure a building," to which they responded by turning off the lights and locking the doors.
The Joint Chiefs then instructed Army personnel to "secure the building," and they occupied the building so no one could enter.
Upon receiving the exact same order, the Marines assaulted the building, captured it, and set up defenses with suppressive fire & amphibious assault vehicles, established reconnaissance and communications channels, and prepared for close hand-to-hand combat if the situation arose.
But the Air Force, on the other hand, acted most swiftly on the command, and took out a three-year lease with an option to buy.
So its quite possible that both sides are telling the truth, there was no fire & there was a fire. If I asked you if there had ever been a fire in your house, you might truthfully tell me no, even though you had a gas stove, lit matches and candles, and maybe even flambe's some meals. Would that make you a liar?
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Re:I'm Sorry (Score:5, Funny)
The story's been around a while (Score:2)
Re:I'm Sorry (Score:4, Insightful)
1. That the fire chief ever said there was a fire...
Today, however -- out of an overabundance of caution (always a good thing) - the Needham Times reporter doubled back to DeIulio and asked if there was any truth to Verizon's contention that there was no fire at the fire on Pine Grove Street. I had contacted the paper earlier and asked that they let me know if any correction proved necessary.
No argument is being made between the two individuals, no suit no nothing. Verison took responsibility for the issue, paying for the whole thing. Even if there were a contention on the state of the accident whether there be a wire cut and sparks flew or if there was an actual electrical fire, it wouldn't change the outcome. No one is covering up anything, no one, but the author is making an issue of this. Just one of the millions of accidents that happen due to poor planning each year.It has not.
"If there's flames, there's fire," Deputy Fire Chief DeIulio said to reporter Ryan, demonstrating once again that public relations professionals need approximately 20 words to every one required by regular people to tell their side of any story.
Should I write a blog on how I had two fiber connections dug up in 1 week here? No, the companies took responsibility and fixed the problem, case closed.
2. Why on earth this is even a story, I live in smallville midwest and this wouldn't even make it as a paragraph in the Living section. This has the feeling of a 15 year old kid scrambling to find a story for a paper before deadline in an hour. Lot of speculation and lack of actual comments in context. I feel like a piece of my life was just wasted reading the article. Similar to how I made it through Mission to Mars, I kept hoping there would be a point to the movie but alas just a section of my life I will never get back. Kind of like how you feel now for reading my post. Just had to do something to make reading this article worth my time.
Re:I'm Sorry (Score:4, Funny)
SCANDAL ON SLASHDOT
An article published on a popular Internet news site Slashdot has been revealed to contain inaccuracies. This shocking revelation, centered around an article concerning a possible attempt at arson committed by Verizon, Inc's employee against the company's customer in Needham, Mass., is only the latest scandal surrounding Slashdot. While the police did not give any details at this time, an attempt to indicate the local fire department of lying is rumored to be at the heart of the matter.
A Slashdot reader, identifying himself as a veteran of the Mission to Mars, expressed his outrage of the incident, but felt confident that the mental skills honed at that mission would help him cope through these traumatic times.
"I feel like a piece of my life was just wasted reading the article.", said one reader. Others have engaged in anti-social behavior; one caught in the act said: "Just had to do something to make reading this article worth my time."
-Ultranova, reporting live from Slashdot.
On-Site Support (Score:5, Funny)
Verizon technical workers are careless and unqualified?
I'm shocked!
Re:On-Site Support (Score:5, Funny)
Headline? (Score:5, Insightful)
Crap, several of our T1 lines were cut last week by a government employee who "forgot" to get a map of buried cables before digging. It cost us a heck of a lot more than a house (OT and moving of computer equipment from one location to another)... and that is just our business. I am not even sure it got local coverage.
Re:Headline? (Score:5, Funny)
In my experience the easiest way to find the owner of a cable is to break it and wait for the complaints.
Re:Headline? (Score:5, Funny)
Some years ago the water/sewage pipes were being repaired just outside the office where I worked. The trench was gradually making its progress up the road, across the pavement [sidewalk] and was closing in on the visitors' car park in front of the building.
The facilities manager walked out to meet them and spoke to the foreman.
"Please be careful and watch out when you're digging here, there are some comms cables running across the car park here, they are about 1 metre down"
"Don't you worry about that sir... we'll be digging much deeper than that" came the reply.
The really sad part was that he couldn't see why we were laughing.
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Then some PHB came by and decided he didn't like the way the rooms were numbered, so he changed the numbers, but he didn't switch to an entirely new system so some of the numbers remained the same, though usually (but not always) attached to different rooms.
The excellent labeling became a major handicap, and, of course, no one was ever tasked with fixing the label sys
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I have to agree...interesting, but only marginally newsworthy.
Gotta love it when that happens. We
Blogspam (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Blogspam (Score:4, Insightful)
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Throughout my career in IT, I've had countless problems with Verizon T1s. This is spanning about 8 years, between NY and DC.
I've actually called an ISP when a T1 went out and had them say, "That's funny, I have a record that Verizon just fixed a T1 on your street!" That's right, they broke my T1 while fixing another person's T1.
And now that I have a couple bonded T1s, I've seen it happen more directly. I've actually had problems with one T1, and right when it goes up, another goes down. Then I call ba
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My father recently put in a fence. As there were streelights in the vicinity, he called the electricity company to inquire about where the cables were.
Not only did they send him a map, but they also sent a guy round with a van and a cable detector to make sure that they were actually where the map was (free of charge). My general impression was that they were delighted that
Fire not important (Score:2, Troll)
In any event it should be SOP to drill a shallow hole at first and check the cavity for cables before drilling further. Thats how I would do it anyway.
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Is this geek newsworthy? (Score:4, Insightful)
What's next? "Verizon Employee caught stealing Stationary: Box of blue pens missing. Only cap left."
Re:Is this geek newsworthy? (Score:4, Funny)
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What? Why is this on the front page? (Score:5, Insightful)
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But it does give everyone a chance to complain about editorial quality here, soothe the masses before double posting a story about the RIAA, Microsoft, SCO, or illegal wiretapping.
And if it hadn't been posted I would have missed my chance to read this:
I love this quote from Verizon PR... (Score:2, Funny)
Perhaps not the best turn of phrase to use, all things considered...
Re:I love this quote from Verizon PR... (Score:4, Funny)
Other rejected phrases:
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yes, well.....because um... (Score:3, Funny)
Had to say it (Score:4, Funny)
Blame (Score:2, Informative)
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Let me be the 15th to say.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean seriously, this didn't even make the local news.
Anyone want to post a front-page story about the plastic Dasani water bottle I found in my front lawn this morning? I feel it was tossed there from a passing car. My girlfriend thinks it was blown there from across the street. I told her people litter all the time on the street in front of our house, so they probably just tossed it on the front lawn.
FWIW, there was no fire in my house when Verizon installed my ONT. Me, Verizon and the town all agree on that.
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It's probably the airport security people having fun with all the loot they take at the security check points.
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How about ordering a $2 power cable splitter and cooking several hard drives before discovering that the leads were backwards on one of the connectors (the drives were new and were assumed faulty before anybody thought to check the connector)? So much for idiot-proof fits-one-way connectors...
Stupid semantics argument (Score:4, Interesting)
Argument that its a fire: things got burned.
Argument that its not a fire: apparantly no secondary ignition. The burns were evidently from the sparks and the fuse melting.
As for the fireman saying, "if there's flames..." It take a few minutes for the fire truck to arrive. If there were flames when they got there, they'd be substantial enough that there wouldn't be any argument over whether there was a fire. His claim of the existance of flames can't be based on primary observation by either him or his staff.
I can see why Verizon cares about the difference. If there was a fire, that's a compelling reason for the county to change the ordinances governing the certifications their installers are required to hold. If there were just some sparks with the protection on the electrical circuits preventing a fire as designed then there's no reason to change the ordinances.
Re:Stupid semantics argument (Score:5, Informative)
If this was actually the building's "electric main" (properly called the service conductors), there isn't really any overcurrent protection on them. The service drop and wiring between the meter and the main breaker/disconnect are UNFUSED, with the only protection being a fuse on the primary side of the transformer out on the utility pole, which generally serves 5-6 homes, if not the entire block.
In the event of a short circuit on these wires, fault currents of thousands of amperes are potentially available. The end of the drill bit used by that Verizon tech most likely turned into a ball of plasma when it hit those wires. The guy is lucky that the accident happened inside a wall cavity, or he likely would have gotten a faceful of metal vapor and some nasty burns.
Accidents involving arc-flash burns like this actually kill more electricians than outright electrocution does.
A breaker wouldn't prevent electrocutions..... (Score:2)
It only takes ~1/10 of an ampere through your body to kill you, which is practically nothing compared to the current rating of a breaker that would be used to protect a service drop. Circuit breaker or not, if you become a current path to ground, you are going to get a shock at the very least.
Re:Stupid semantics argument (Score:4, Informative)
For us, in the context of history, a "fire" and a "call" are the same thing. "How was that fire last night?" "Oh, it was just a buggy detector." Within that parlance, "fire" is synonymous with "call" - so TFA's assertion that the chief "not correcting him" is crap.
The chief's report of an actual fire will generally depend on criteria that varies per state (and possibly county). But as a matter of course, we don't pull sheetrock without cause - and the responding crew clearly felt the need to do so, and I take that as a good indicator. The only question is what they found in the void space - did some cobwebs cook off and go out, did some insulation smolder and go out of its own accord, or did they actually have to flow some water. Note that the chief will tend to report any sign of charring as a fire, even if it's cold when we get there. "Did something burn?" "Yes, clearly." "Did it sustain?" "No. It was electrical, and it went out when the breaker tripped." While the event may have been a simple "arc and spark", it still constitutes an electrical fire in every NFPA and IFSTA book ever written. Quite the dilemma.
Slightly OT, but you'll enjoy this - "It takes a few minutes for the fire truck to arrive. If there were flames when they got there, they'd be substantial enough that..."
There's an old saying. If you can't find the house, just wait. Sooner or later, it'll vent
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Fires don't work that way. (Score:2)
My wife used to design sprinkler systems and just from the earbashing* I've received I know that's totally wrong. A fire can remain smoldering for hours, and burst into flame when it's finally exposed.
* Checking into a hotel with a fire protection engineer is an education.
DirecTV Story (Score:5, Interesting)
It was only a matter of time before one of these morons drilled through an electrical line.
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Explains Things (Score:2)
They are contractors paid by the job (Score:3, Insightful)
Most people in most jobs are not quality focused, and therefore need to be supervised in order to make sure that the job is well done.
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In the short 23 years I have been alive, I have never seen installers work with as much care as these two guys did. If they were going to drill walls, they put blankets over any objects near the drill sites, they COMPLETELY cle
Where there's smoke ... (Score:4, Informative)
There are a couple reports of smoke, one pinpointing the electric meter. And a neighbor reported electric power flickering. Both of these suggest to me there was an arcing fault in the electric service feed between the meter and the first main breaker/fuse in the electrical panel for the house.
These points along the electrical service wiring are critical because there is no overcurrent protection suitable to shut them off. The amount of current such an arc cause draw will be substantial, but it won't always be more than all the homes sharing the same transformer could draw combined at peak loads. So that fuse leading into the transformer isn't likely to stop it. It is intended to stop a short on the high voltage windings inside the transformer. These fuses are intentionally set high to avoid false outages.
Today's electrical codes require substantial physical protection of the wiring between the meter and main panel, such as enclosure in conduit for short distances, and more significant protection for longer distances. But lots of older wiring doesn't have this protection.
Telephone and cable service also needs to come in next to the power for proper grounding purposes.
My biggest concern is the technician doing the installation not having the proper training to work around the power connections.
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Also, cableTV/phone lines do NOT need to come in near power. A cold water pipe (such as one leading to an outside spigot) will do just fine, and is in fact preferable. Note that Fiber (which I suspect may have been what was being installed here, Verizon FiOS) specifically does NOT need to be grounded (although the inside equipment they connect it to will need an ordinary house current connection
As an experienced firefighter (Score:4, Interesting)
There is no doubt when something is on fire. We deal with all kinds of incidents. We're a dirt poor volunteer department and even we have thermal cameras that will distinguish the merely hot from something on fire, even through walls. We also have infrared surface thermometers so we know where to cut the hole in the wall.
I've also seen it happen that something was smoking hot until the access hole is cut and when the air gets in it bursts into flame. Particularly in walls and behind panels. I doubt the Verizon techs were close enough to see when the fire department got there.
The witnesses said they saw white, puffy smoke. That usually means the fire is out. It also indicates there was a fire to put out.
Just amazes me that the truth is so hard for so many organizations these days.
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"All that smoke? Yeah, it was, uh, those Verizon guys. They hit a power line. It smells like pot?? Weird, dude..."
Fine, I admit there was a fire... we'll pay you (Score:2, Funny)
Tim Allen (Score:5, Funny)
WTF!?! (Score:2)
Verizon: There was no fire
FireFighter: Yes there was a fire, I saw it
Verizon: And who are you to determine if there was a fire or not
FireFighter:
Verizon: No, because there was no fire.
FireFighter:
Honesty is the best policy (Score:2)
If the PR guy is smart, I'd suggest a factual statement of what occurred that simply omits any opinion on whether or not there was "a fire" which does not seem to be of any importance.
For example, something like, "Our technician cut a wire, causing a short-circuit, sparks, and smoke visible to passers-by. Verizon called the Needham fire department was called immediately. The technician is OK. The problem was quickly contained. Nothing outside the electrica
News that matters (Score:2, Insightful)
Measurement (Score:3, Funny)
Where was the Network? (Score:2, Insightful)
Happens way too many times (Score:2, Informative)
About a year earlier in Burnaby a construction crew hit a gas line about 100 feet away from our offices. They closed off the whole block till BC arrived and fixed the hole.
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http://www.cnn.com/US/9812/11/explosion.02/index.h tml [cnn.com]
Yes, yes I know it isn't all fun and collapsing bridges in Minnesota. Sometimes whe have the above. Seriously though, last October, Buffalo, a large town in Minnesota, had its gas service shut off because of a gas line leak. They shut the gas main off and then went to door to door in the town shutting each of the gas meters off. The necessary gas line work was done. Then, the gas main w
Ah, the lovely town of Needham... (Score:2, Funny)
Cell site waivers and building damage (Score:2, Interesting)
why I won't drill holes in other people's property (Score:2)
Re:And things really aren't looking good... (Score:4, Funny)
Employee: Actually, I started a fire in a customers house and denied it ever happend, even though there were eyewitnesses. Needless to say the incident received national attention and my company spent a lot of money in litigation.
Interviewer: We'll let you know.
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deep throat was your dad?