Study Reveals What Women Want From IT Jobs 346
amigoro writes "Ever wonder why there are so few women in the IT workplace? It turns out that the typical recruiters sales pitch, which emphasizing job promotion and security, acts to keep women out of the information technology jobs. While about 30 percent indicated they valued careers that afforded them opportunities to perfect skills in technical areas, others said they wanted careers with managerial opportunities. In addition, there was little overlap among the women who reported that managers give up technical skills to develop management skills."
Not surprising (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Not surprising (Score:4, Informative)
In the last 2 months I've found 3 women looking for work in IT in my market area. One was a help desk candidate fresh out of college, one was a more experienced desktop support tech, and the last was a mid level Unix admin (who rode her harley to the interview). I placed all three of them in less than 36 hours over male candidates with more experience.... not hard to guess why.
Re:Not surprising (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not surprising (Score:5, Funny)
They blew you?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Which is why they don't work in IT. You don't get to 'perfect your skills' without freelancing, and you *don't* go into IT for managerial opportunities - at least, you don't tell anyone that; the managers get a little insecure...
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Like in Russia ... the women spy you (Score:3, Funny)
boy-with-fear: i'm seeing the Lolita movie.
IT women1: come in girl, watch!, this boy 13-year old is seeing the most PORNest movie of the world!
IT women2: hahaha!
IT women1: hahaha!
IT women2: fuck him! hahaha!
Re:Not surprising (Score:5, Funny)
what women don't want... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:what women don't want... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:what women don't want... (Score:4, Funny)
Also, I feel there's too much misogyny in the IT field. Dames are going to need more support and chocolate or else they'll get their fragile feelings hurt and'll stain their dresses with tears. You know broads can't take that.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
They don't want to deal with the monthly Microsoft Patch Cycle? Smart.
Hmmm... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Hmmm... (Score:5, Interesting)
I question this number. Does it seem fishy?
also...
Human-resources personnel need to recognize that women have diverse values and motivations throughout their careers and tailor hiring and retention practices to fit those needs
Since when do employers tailor jobs for their employees? Don't employers post what they want the person to do and the job seekers decide whether they want to apply or not? Or is this only if employers "need" to employ more women in their IT departments.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
"[Working in IT] is a place where I can get control that a child from a dysfunctional family wants," a 49 year-old IT operations architect, who had a traumatic childhood said. "I can make order. I can put those damn cards in the right order. I can get the syntax perfect. I can run it and have it compile cleanly. There are all of these tidiness c
Re:Hmmm... (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I think that these sort of studies go the wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
What do women want in IT jobs? The same as everyone else: An opportunity to pursue whatever goals they have through the job. If, on average, they have different goals, the jobs they take will look something different.
My grandmother introduced me to computers when I was 5 (back in 1981). She programmed her physics models in Fortran and ran them on big mainframes and not quite so big computers (still huge by our standards today), and was a pioneer in her field of astrophysics. She had a lot in common with many women in IT today and felt that it was a mistake to focus on bringing more women into the field when we should be focusing on more fundamnetal goals instead.
The basic issue is: in IT as in astrophysics, you are only really good at your field if you are borderline (or more) obsessive-compulsive. You can't just work in the field-- you have to live and breathe the field most of your waking hours nearly every day. It is a lifestyle more than a career. And it is found in mathematics, physics, etc (all fields dominated by men). Indeed this may say more about balance in life (and a gender gap in that area), and an ability to avoid letting one thing overwhelm the rest than it may say about aptitude in the field per se. Think about all the jokes about Slashdotters and girlfriends (or engineers and girlfriends, for that matter) and ask how many women want to be in fields where such jokes are made as at least representing some version of the reality of those who work in them.
My suggested solution is to stop thinking about what we can do to lure women into jobs that they don't want and instead focus on architectures of participation. The goal should not be "why don't you want this job" but instead "what do *you* want to do? How do you want to participate?" THis requires a fundamental shift of a company away from top-down management into something more organic or community oriented.
Think of it this way (for the men out here): If you were a registered nurse and everyone always asked you, "Why don't more men go into nursing?" would that be helpful or would it dissuade you from promoting others going into the field? Wouldn't it be better if we focused on redefining the field such that it could be more inclusive of people with diverse goals so that more people could contribute what they could?
We are also going to have to admit at some point that gender roles are going to eventually play into peoples' career choices and that some fields are going to be dominated by people from one gender or the other. This is OK and healthy by itself and without other factors, not worth worrying about.
Re:I think that these sort of studies go the wrong (Score:5, Interesting)
Before I focused my career 100% on the technology aspect, I helped with recruiting and interviews because it was the eaisest way to get promoted and stay technical but avoid the management track where I had to do employee reviews and firings. The seminars about interviews and recruiting tell the truth about "hiring demographics" or whatever the PC term for it is now.
I quit the recruiting ASAP though because applicants, including females, at the job fairs would actually admit to me they didn't want to be doing IT, but felt it was the best financial hope for their future.
It doesn't matter what career path you're on, if you're just in the interview stage and already admitting you don't want to do it, then I'm going to put your resume in the "NO" pile even if I smile and thank you for your time. Unhappy workers are not productive or good for other's morale.
Not all the women specifically mentioned why they didn't want to do IT. A few asked me up front if I had to deal with sexism or what it was like working for and with all men. I even remember one asking me if there were any technical women at the company. When I explained that I was actually one of them, that does recruiting part time she let loose and explicative and something about how I really break the typical stereotype of "technical women". (I was pretty PO'ed at this because we have some really hawt ladies that are very competant, but I kept her resume anyway.)
The OP's question is going to generate different answers. Especially with the generations of late. I wanted a job in IT that I enjoyed with enough compensation so that I could afford the enormous cost of living in the area I chose to live safely as a single female right out of college. Along with it I wasn't going to sacrifice any of my integrity.
stereotypes get old (Score:3, Interesting)
It could also be that they start into IT/math/whatever and get tired of people being shocked when they tell them what they do.
Or am I the only one with that problem? It's really annoying to be frequently reminded that people need to be convinced that you can do what you spend your life doing. No one is surprised when I make good cookies or get a small child to stop crying! Why must they be shocked when I do good math?
The closely related phenomena is that people feel the need to tell me I'm good at this stuff. It's as if they expect me not to realize I'm good at it, since it was such a shock to them. I swear it's as if they caught their pet gerbil building a rocket, completely unthinkable but kind of cool.
I think I understand what you're getting at. The women are sick of the "trying to react non-stereotypically" when they break stale stigmas that are sadly still present.
If so, thats a good point. In highschool, I was the only person in my graduating class that took more math classes than were offered at the school. (No, I did not graduate valedictorian or fit in any stereotype from The Breakfast Club.) We just had no Calculus, in fact, we had no AP classes. My senior year I didn't feel like takin
Not quite (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly, they don't want to WORK in IT... but if offered on a silver platter they might consent to starting right into a management position in the IT Dept. Yes I know management skills aren't the same as the ones needed for hands on stuff, but it damn sure helps if one knows SOME of the skills your underlings use, if nothing else it allows you to communicate in ways that don't look ripped straight from the pages of Dilbert.
And because of quotas and fe
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There are plenty of managerial opportunities in IT. There's a lot of demand for project managers who know about the kind of work the project involves. Like programming.
I keep hearing at performance reviews that it's exactly my managerial, administrative, customer-oriented skills that are lacking. I'm bad at those things exactly because I want to be a programmer, but apparently, bei
Overlapping women? (Score:5, Funny)
Seriously though, did that line make sense to anyone else?
Re: (Score:2)
"In addition, there was little overlap (between) the women who reported that managers give up technical skills to develop management skills"..."and women who reported that managers don't give up technical skills to develop management skills." Or something.
You can't have overlap with just one group. That's just lap.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
For example, I know management folks with technical backgrounds who keep up to date on projects, who want to know what's going on and will even have a good technical debate with you.
At the end of the day, it's not all cut and dried. There are people wh
Re: (Score:2)
People are too prone to thinking in black in white, and that sort of thinking leads them to create articles like "Study reveals what women want in IT jobs" like it's possible to isolate the two or three factors that are preventing hordes of women from descending on the IT profession.
Re: (Score:2)
Soooo..... (Score:4, Insightful)
So, what they want is control NOW ?
While the rest of us toil to perfect our skills and move up the ladder, they want to be on top?
Damn, next they will want the damned TV remote, too.
Re:Soooo..... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Soooo..... (Score:4, Insightful)
100% Accurate (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Actually they interviewed all 92 females. I'm not sure whether you didn't read the article or whether you inverted the numbers!
Re: (Score:2)
Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why? (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Silence, you fool!
Oday otnay alktay aboutay hetay astermay lanpay hereway hosetay uriouscay reaturescay ancay earhay ouyay.
Re:Why? (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree that math/science work is probably not put up to females as positively as it should be in their early lives, but this is not a workplace issue, it's a social issue. By the time they get to the workforce, they're going to be doing whatever it is that they've been studying to do...I mean, is it that there is a massive force of women with technical degrees who aren't going into IT because the recruiting pitch isn't to their taste? That doesn't make any sense.
It's far more likely (and my college experience bears this out) that there are relatively few women who choose to get technical degrees, and thus they are not heavily represented in the IT workforce.
Re:Why? (Score:4, Interesting)
The reason why women aren't in IT is that an ever-changing environment is something that only works for young and older women, leaving this huge career gap. Middle class women have children around age 30 and a statistically significant percentage of mothers either stop working or reduce their hours. So if you were a Novell superstar in 1992, have two kids and come back to work in 1997... guess what... you're an NT 4.0 newbie.
Actually, there are good reasons to get Women in (Score:3, Insightful)
Politicall Correct World (Score:3, Insightful)
Lazy (Score:2)
"...others said they wanted careers with managerial opportunities."
I do not think I am chauvinistic and/or sexist, but maybe it's just me, but somehow, that kind of says "We don't want to do real technical work or at least less of it than most." to me since they seem to care more about manager positions than actual technical jobs.
What do you guys/girls think?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Preferring managerial positions over technical positions isn't necessarily lazy. Both positions might be easy or hard, depending partially on how good a job you do. They're really different kinds of work, requiring different skills, and people who enjoy one sort of work might not enjoy the other sort. It might be that people who prefer managerial work are recognizing something about their own strengths and weaknesses and choosing the job that's appropriate for them.
Of course, I'll acknowledge that some
Not lazy, more like not stoopid (Score:2)
Seriously, my wife and I started out in software development together, and for a time even worked for the same large corporation. Now, basing my observations on a sample size of 1, I can say that while men tend to enjoy the narrowly-focused problem solving that programming requires at times, women simply get bored with it.
More accurately, they get bored with solving problem after problem, with no change in their prospects for advancement. For what it's worth, my wife moved to systems engineering, then
Unexperienced managers (Score:4, Insightful)
but I think it's a little unfair to have managers who have little or no experience in the respective field.
It's much easier to respect a manager who knows her stuff and understands the work well rather than a fresh-out-of-college MBA.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I think it's true that unexperienced managers are often bad managers, and a fresh-out-of-college MBA with no experience is likely to be... well, kind of good-for-nothing until he/she gets some experience in something. Most kids, fresh out of college and with no experience, are kind of problematic.
However, I think it'd be a mistake to think that a manager should be required to be an experienced technical person in the respective field. Often, the skills of being the techie guru and the skills of managing
Re: (Score:2)
Frankly I don't give a damn so long as they listen to their employees. Most of my managers have believed (correctly or not) that they were more intelligent than I am, not on any logical basis, but because they're managers and I'm not.
Men do not have diverse values (Score:5, Insightful)
Unlike men, who apparently only have a single value and motivation for choosing their career.
Really, I don't get the whole article. They claim there's not many women in IT because recruiters tout the chances for promotion and job security. I have my doubts that anyone, male or female, goes "Man, this job has security and I likely won't be looking for work in 3 months? Well the hell with that. I don't want this job." As to the chances for promotion, does that not fit right in line with the women interviewed and quoted who say they want to move up into IT management?
And then of course there is a question that I always have. If there were few women in IT because they were being told they are too stupid to understand computer or something, I get how that would be a problem. If there's not many women in IT because the type of work and the rewards that IT jobs typically offer are not what many women want, though, then what's the big deal?
Re:Men do not have diverse values (Score:5, Insightful)
Unlike men, who apparently only have a single value and motivation for choosing their career.
While that's not quite true, it's far more accurate when describing a man than a woman. Socially, men are judged and measured by their occupation and potential as a provider. If a man works a laid-back, 25 hour a week part-time job because his spouse allows him to do so, he's a lazy bum; for a woman, it's a perfectly acceptable decision as far as society is concerned (although how an individual woman feels about it is up to her).
Far and above all other standards, men want a decent salary and job security, and they're willing to put up with a lot of crap to get it. According to Department of Labor statistics, for example, 90% of on-the-job deaths are men, and men work more hours both in fullt-ime and part-time jobs than women; Men will take the dangerous, filthy, and more time-intensive jobs because of the extra pay associated with them.
Women certainly value good pay and stability, and this study isn't questioning that. Rather, it is saying that opening a book and saying, "Look ladies, we have good pay and stability" isn't the deal maker that it is for men. Socially, women can afford (more than men) to demand additional perks from a job. We're all familiar with the list: flexible hours, jobs that focus more on interpersonal communication, etc. Again, a total generalization but true when looked at as a total generalization.
In essence: if you are an HR manager, part of your job is to bring in diverse employees. The reasons for that are certainly debatable, and I agree with you that it shouldn't be as big of a deal as some make it out to be. But if you are an HR manager, and if you are attempting to recruit more women, you should probably rethink your sales pitch.
Re: (Score:2)
My head hurts (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Why the push for women in IT? (Score:2)
Wouldn't a more important "study" reveal what QUALITY WORKERS want from IT jobs, not just women?
That said, I work in the marketing department, and I'm surrounded by attractive women
What women in the work place want? (Score:4, Funny)
Thank you ladies, I'll be here all week!
It's simple. (Score:2)
No seriously, that's what they after!
Ok, ok, I am joking. Like all other people they want money from their work.
Oh maybe they want to meet hot IT guys for money. Yeah, that's it.
What women want (Score:5, Insightful)
Women should do what men do. When a man wants a job, he works and qualifies for it. He does what is expected by the employer. And if it doesn't work out, he does something else.
I don't think it's too much to expect women to play by the expectations of business people. You can twist and spin things any way you like, but the bottom line is that what we are talking about is business changing to meet the expectations of a specific subset of employable people. It just doesn't work quite that way. We're not talking about "challenged" [disabled] people unless you would like to reclassify women as being challenged or disabled in some way. What we're talking about is that somewhere between 45% and 55% of the general employable population who are making a decision about whether or not they want a job based on the criteria and expectations of employers for any given position... in IT or otherwise.
I think it's lovely that women want extras and allowances from their workplace. And hell yes, if an employer WANTS to provide those things then great! There's a match and life goes on happily ever after. I want extras and allowances too! I don't often get them, but that's not enough for me to not work for a living. But what are we talking about? Employers being compelled to provide for women as if they were some "special needs" group? To me, "special needs" people are mentally challenged, sensory challenged or mobility challenged people. If women by virtue of their gender can qualify under one of those categories, then they should probably be afforded special treatment. If not, then why are we always talking about this?!
Why aren't we talking about why there aren't more men doing jobs that are generally populated by women?
I hold there is an idea best identified as "different but equal." We shouldn't be concerned whether or not women want to be involved in a certain profession if that is their choice. If they want it, they will do what other people who want it do. If they would rather not do what it takes, then they shouldn't do the job... and that's largely why they don't I'm guessing.
Would *I* like to see more women in IT? **YES** I like smart women who can appreciate the things I appreciate. That's just about every geek's desire. It's rare, it's a pity, but it's life.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Diversity (Score:4, Interesting)
One will often hear the argument that diversity brings different ideas and approaches to the table. This may be the case in some fields, and may have a positive impact in some fields. I suspect that IT is not one of those fields. Somebody is not likely to have a different and helpful perspective on any particular technical problem because they have different skin color, a different gender, or a different culture.
Before you call me racist, consider what I am suggesting: that a group of old nerdy white East-coast Slashdotters and a group of young liberal social Latino SoCal women will _both_ outperform a "diverse" group. I am not discussing, nor presently concerned with, the relative productivity of the first two groups.
It would be an interesting problem if it was shown that diversity actually hinders performance in certain fields. A corporation's policy of encouraging diversity would be in direct opposition to its responsibility to its shareholders.
Conduct a study that contradicts my hypothesis, I and will gladly admit to being wrong.
Re: (Score:2)
I only wish that wasn't part of the mission statement of the company I work for....and really wish that the people who write that dribble didn't get 10x my salary....
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The only rebuttal to this statement that I can think of on short notice (and I don't necessarily agree with either viewpoint, I'm just a master debater, ho ho) is that they might not have a different perspective on a technical issue, but different people might be more or less adept at communicating with certain types of peo
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Well this is odd... (Score:4, Insightful)
If you're in technology for the money, there would seem to be easier ways ( marketing, stock trader/finance ). Perhaps, if this is the motivation, a different path might be better?
However, this ( also from TFA ) seems to be spot-on:
So, if you're a bitter control freak ( All programers and DBAs, raise your hands. Yes, you too. Mine is up as well.) welcome home.
What's interesting from TFA is 18 of 92 respondants quoted the first motivation, while 28 quoted the second. What, did the other 46 pick "other"?
"Math is hard, let's go shopping." (Score:2)
(Special insert for the clue-challenged: Malibu Stacey is as off as the HR people described in the article.)
It is a true quote (Score:2, Interesting)
My favorite part of the article (Score:5, Insightful)
"My parents said we are [only] paying for four years of school and I could
not become a lawyer in four years", 48 year-old CIO said. " I just said
okay, well I want to make a lot of money and so what is the next best
thing? And I did the research and the computing industry was the next big
booming thing"
My first thought:
I have noted throughout my career that the worst IT people are those who are in it for the money or treat it as just a job.
Those managers and co-workers who have a true passion... those who live and breathe for technology: they're the ones that actually get stuff done.
Re: (Score:2)
I have noted throughout my career that the worst IT people are those who are in it for the money or treat it as just a job.
I think that's true of just about every career other than sales (where being in it for the money can actually help). Pursuing a career that you aren't passionate about is also a good way to ensure a mid-life crisis.
Re: (Score:2)
I want to hear things like what kind of video card, what type of processor chip, the network they've got going, what OS they're running, that sort of stuff. The good techs will tell you al
Bah (Score:2)
I see not a single reference to Mel Gibson in the article. I call shenanigans!
Actually... (Score:5, Funny)
All that she wants
Is another baby
She's gone tomorrow, boy.
So I don't know what IT can really offer women.
Recruiters (Score:3, Informative)
TFA is crap (Score:2)
In my shop, women outnumber men. (Score:2)
Women are sensible. They want:
* Job security
* A living wage
* Reasonable hours that are compatible with raising a family
* Good benefits
* A nice working environment.
All of these things are available in plenty in civil service. I knew that years ago, and got in
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The public-facing website, for example, included single sign on, an Oracle Portal, and a complete port of literally hundreds of
I think I see the problem here... (Score:2, Interesting)
I've worked IT jobs and I've worked education jobs and I've worked retail and that whole collection of jobs that someone works getting to where one needs to be, and even as recently as, oh, two weeks ago, showing up in response to something IT-related with the audacity of having been born and contin
How about the top 10 (Score:5, Funny)
09. Women expect to be promoted and IT people do not get promoted.
08. Women expect benefits and maturity leave which is hard to do when on call 24/7/365
07. Women Like having family time, not getting called and having to run because the the company sees the server as more important than their kids.
06. Women know that guys NEVER listen when they give instructions, so telling some one how to fix a computer is pointless.
05. Most women meet their husbands at work, and the IT department is not as good as being an executive assistant.
04. Women like to have others to talk to and geeks only drool when they are around.
03. Women expect to be treated with respect and we all know that IT is never treated with respect.
02. Women like taking baths and showers and can not stand being around people who do not.
And the number one reason is
01. Women never let guys know how smart they are, this would put them at a disadvantage when arguing.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: maturity leave (Score:2, Funny)
The reason there are fewer women is bacause (Score:2)
If I was to do it over again, I'd become an actuary.
Maybe in the west but overseas its different (Score:5, Interesting)
What do women want? Who gives a shit. (Score:2, Insightful)
Seriously... look at the authors (Score:4, Interesting)
Plus, three the four professional organizations she claims on her CV are sexist, discriminatory and exclusionary - yet if anybody ever suggested to her that there should be an organization for "Men in the Sciences and Engineering" what do you suppose her reaction would be?
This is nothing more than yet another sexist, feminist ivory tower denizen who believes that advancement at the expense of others is a noble pursuit. Some of the best IT workers I've ever known were women and some of the worst were men - and I, like just about everybody else, really don't care who does the work so long as the work gets done. Sex should have absolutely ~zero~ consideration in IT hiring practices. Hire the best person for the job and get rid of that person if their work-life balance is always tipped towards life at the expense of work.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:The reason that are so few women in IT (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Political correctness (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Proof that slashdotters never RTFA (Score:2)
Actually, it was scarier than poor grammar. It was poor cut and paste skills. The true original, FTFA:
Re: (Score:2)
"Proof that slashdotters never RTFA" by Actually, I do RTFA
That's so self-contradictory I didn't even read what you had to say. I'm just posting this to point out your mad irony skills
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't see why 'equality' has to equate with 'equal everything'. If there are few women in IT, could it be that it doesn't interest women in general? Wouldn't true equality dictate that we all have the equal chance to obtain these positions, not that we have to have equal representation in those positions? Why are few men in hairdressing? Because in all honesty, it probably doesn't interest men, in general, enough to require any kind of
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Of course... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)