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Monad Shell Removed From Vista 330

hggs writes "According to Stephen Toulouse at Microsoft, because of the possible virus threat that targets Monad the shell will not be included in Windows Vista. CNet is reporting that, even though Monad is not to be included on Vista, it will be included on a major server operating system for servers from Microsoft. Codenamed Longhorn server, that edition is due out by 2007." Update: 08/06 04:45 GMT by Z : As Mr. Toulouse states here, the submission here adds one and one and gets three. Monad hasn't been in Vista for about two months. The CNet article is clarifying a previous report stating that Monad could potentially be the first source of viruses in an OS which incorporated it. The interesting news about Monad in the server edition was obscured by the factually incorrect submission, which at first blush seemed to make sense. Mea Culpa.
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Monad Shell Removed From Vista

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  • Damn, how long will they delay all of these MEGA-AWESOME MUST BUY features? Are they really so incompetent?
    • by sH4RD ( 749216 ) on Friday August 05, 2005 @07:28PM (#13254641) Homepage
      You do realize that many of the features in Longhorn/Vista (most importantly WinFS) were due for Windows NT 3.x? The creators of NT were way before their time, but typical Microsoft screwed everything up. If Windows NT 3.x had the features originally planned, I don't think Windows would nearly suck as much as it does now. Instead they have spent 10 years trying to add the features that were supposed to be there in the first place. Imagine where we could be instead. A world where Microsoft might actually not suck. But instead here we are, wishing Longhorn/Vista had all those nice features that would make our experience with Windows (face it, you can't escape from it all the time) a little nicer. Those "MEGA-AWESOME MUST BUY features" have been delayed so long that I'm sure Microsoft doesn't mind leaving them out for later.
      • by mechsoph ( 716782 ) on Friday August 05, 2005 @08:03PM (#13254916)
        Considering that NT is, theoretically the successor to VMS, it sure is lame.

        Where's our versioning file system? Where's our ironclad clustering? (Someone who's a real VMS geek can probably offer more examples)

        Micrsoft hires Dave Cutler, who wrote VMS, and a bunch of the DEC engineers, has them write a brand spankin' new OS to Rule Them All, and they try to sell some retarded crapheap that doesn't have some of the best features of the '80's.

        Of course, the perfectly sensible reason they're selling a crapheap is that performance mattered more than a secure microkernel architecture (which NT, at one point, supposedly was), and backwards compatability with win32 is the only thing keeping people running to back to MS like a crackhead to his dealer.

        Give me my good 'ol 70's Unix. The '80's died, and the 90's just won't.
        • by ozmanjusri ( 601766 ) <> on Friday August 05, 2005 @10:02PM (#13255581) Journal
          Someone who's a real VMS geek can probably offer more examples

          I've been away from VMS too long to call myself a real geek, but what I miss most when I'm using other OSs is the consistency.
          Commands mean what you think and work the way you expect. The Procedure Calling Standard makes coding in different languages a breeze. The versioning file system saved my arse more than once too...
          And of course, there was always EDT..

          Trouble is, most of that sort of stuff is the result of solid design, and can't just be ported over. Adding a clever command shell to Windows is a good step, and from what I've seen, Monad has potential to be a very clever CLI, but it's resting on a system which was never designed to be as solid as VMS.

          I've heard Longhorn/Vista described as the result of a collision between VMS and OSX Tiger, and while there's an element of truth there, I'd say the bits that survived the impact aren't the ones which make VMS so rock solid.
      • by sharkey ( 16670 ) on Friday August 05, 2005 @09:10PM (#13255316)
        A world where Microsoft might actually not suck.

        Ahhh, a world where Microsoft makes vacuum cleaners.

      • According to Leibniz, Monads have no windows [].

        But now Windows seems less and less likely to have Monad.

        What was MS thinking? Windows and monads just don't mix.

    • AFAIK, Monad wasn't going to be included in Vista even before the virus business came about.
    • by bonch ( 38532 ) on Friday August 05, 2005 @08:28PM (#13255053)
      Here, read the linked article yourself. The submission says the reason for Monad's removal is the previous Slashdot story about the proof-of-concept "virus." But the article has no mention of that and merely points out that Monad won't be in Vista, which we knew months ago. The submitter made the connection up:

      A virus for Windows Vista? Wrong.

      Hi everyone, Stephen Toulouse here. There's been some commentary the past couple of days regarding a potential Windows Vista virus and we wanted to weigh in with some details. First of all, in examining the details of the reports, there is no Windows Vista virus described in them. Instead, the reports are regarding potential proof of concept viruses in the form of malicious scripts that are developed to affect a new interactive shell codenamed "Monad", which is currently in early phase of beta testing.

      Now to be clear, these reports pose no risk for Microsoft customers. The viruses do not attempt to exploit a software vulnerability and do not encompass a new method of attack. Furthermore, "Monad" is not widely available for general use. It's a beta, and we do not recommend or support the use of beta software in a production environment. Microsoft continues to analyze the feedback from testers as Monad continues to be developed.

      But most important, "Monad" is not included in the beta release of Windows Vista or in Windows Server 2003 R2.

      Monad will not be included in the final version of Windows Vista and there is no relation between Monad and Windows Vista Beta 1. Monad is being considered for the Windows Operating System platform for the next three to five years. So these potential viruses do not affect Windows Vista or any other version of Windows if "Monad" has not been installed on the system.

      It's hard to predict what type of malicious software criminals might develop to attack future versions of operating systems. But rest assured we're on the case! The MSRC will be here to investigate and provide the guidance to help protect customers no matter what attacks may impact customers.
      • MOD PARENT UP (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Uber Banker ( 655221 ) * on Friday August 05, 2005 @08:40PM (#13255121)
        The article was factually incorrect, even though it linked to correct articles, cited in the parent post. This 'story' seems no more than a waste of everyone's time, yet the submitter that pointed this out is (presently) modded down to -1.

        Read up: MS isn't 100% bad. They have some good stuff and good policies sometimes. Don't complain about them point blank to improve your ego, you'll be the kid that called wolf too many times.
        • Re:MOD PARENT UP (Score:3, Interesting)

          by killjoe ( 766577 )
          "Read up: MS isn't 100% bad. They have some good stuff and good policies sometimes. Don't complain about them point blank to improve your ego, you'll be the kid that called wolf too many times."

          Mmm. Interesting philosophy. I wonder if I can apply to other things... Let me try.

          Jeffrey Dahmer isn't 100% bad. He does have some good qualities and does good things sometimes. Don't complain about him point blank to imrove yoru ego, you'll be the kid that called wolf too many times.

          Hey that works pretty good.
  • FP (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Microlith ( 54737 )
    Yet another feature stripped from the next release of Windows.

    I guess microsoft figures that only people who spend several thousand for a computer deserve even moderately capable tools.

    Oh well. More and more reason to not bother upgrading, and gear towards an eventual switch to Linux someday.
    • Re:FP (Score:5, Funny)

      by Nuclear Elephant ( 700938 ) on Friday August 05, 2005 @07:47PM (#13254806) Homepage
      So that leaves Vista with the following features I guess:

      - Slick 'Vista' wallpaper
      - DRM to protect the wallpaper

      Rock on!
    • Re:FP (Score:2, Insightful)

      by d34thm0nk3y ( 653414 )
      Yet another feature stripped from the next release of Windows.

      What a cop out excuse too. Oh gee, the scripting language is vulnerable to malicious programmers in the same way every programming language is.
      • Re:FP (Score:3, Informative)

        by falsified ( 638041 )
        Insightful? Microsoft isn't using it as an excuse. MSH wasn't ready for release by the time Vista will be. One has nothing to do with the other. Monad's insecurity was to be expected since it's still in alpha or maybe early beta. Therefore, it's not being released.

        As an aside, am I the only person who likes what he sees so far as MSH goes?

    • build a great OS given the vast number of micro-markets that exist purely as a result of it's shortcomings. The bulk of system adminstrators would far rather Windows remain in constant need of nursing, for instance, just to keep their jobs. Put simplistically, the harder Windows is to administer, the better.

      Focussing on the internal qualities of the product itself obscures a wider business sensibility intrinsic to market monopoly through downstream dependence from symptomatic service industries.

  • Poster Wrong. (Score:5, Informative)

    by AdroitOneX ( 711013 ) * on Friday August 05, 2005 @07:24PM (#13254591)
    I RTFA and it does not even imply that MONAD will not be included in Windows Vista because of the virus threat. In fact, MS announced almost two months ago [] that Mondad will not be included in Windows Vista (then Longhorn).
  • Remove the capability of the command line for home users, but leave a buggy and insecure shell for servers where hackers can have lots of fun messing up enterprise level websites!
    • I dunno. I'd rather have to worry about securing the MS boxes that I admin vs. defending them against DDOS attacks from legions of zombies.
    • I don't think monad is buggy. I think that Monad's main problem is that it's too flexible - ie: like perl, python, etc. Just like it's easy to write a virus in a few lines of perl, it should be easier for virus writers to write virus with monad.

      Remember that virus use "generic" tecnology, things that everybody has, IOW generic windows installations. If everybody has a powerful shell script like monad it'll be easier for virus writers to write virus. If it's optional, it will not be so dangerous because v
    • "but leave a buggy and insecure shell for servers where hackers can have lots of fun messing up "

      Job Security!!
    • A lot of times, slashdot posters are incorrect. And editors often don't even read the links they push to the front page, to be read by millions of people.
      • Well... under a million registered users I believe. I haven't seen anybody with a 7 digit UID yet.

        That said, let me tell you... I can't wait for the day. Gurls dig low UID's, and, well, as you can see, they'll be all about me by about the time user number 1,000,000 comes around.

        Slashdot pimpin' ain't easy, but it's necessary, so I'm chasing gurls like Tom chases Jerry!
  • by cryptoz ( 878581 ) <> on Friday August 05, 2005 @07:24PM (#13254597) Homepage Journal
    Microsoft has decided to not release Windows Vista at all this year.
    • Um, hate to spoil your attempt at humor, but it is supposed to come out 2nd half of next year. This isn't new information. One of the senior guys in an interview accidentally leaked the holiday season as the target for it.
      • One of the senior guys in an interview accidentally leaked the holiday season as the target for it.

        OMG you have to love those marketing people.

        "Yeah honey, you know, what I really want for Christmas this year is a copy of Microsoft Vista!" Barrrrrrf.

        or as an alternative:

        "Oh look, D3ll now has Vista on their PC's just in time for Christmas. I HAVE to buy a D3ll PC for Christmas now!" Urghghgh.

        even better: "I spent New Year's Eve downloading Vista and the serial crack...Happy New Year Microsoft!"
    • Microsoft announces Monad is insufficient for Vista.

      Later this week they plan to unveil Gonad, the new MSShell.

      A senior Microsoft developer leaked some details of the new Gonad shell "When you start the computer, it boots your Gonad and brings up a MShell". When pressed for further information, he said "Not now, I have a headache".
      • No, no, no -- Gonad is the Free reimplmentation being developed by the guy that works on GNOME and Mono.

        Incidentally, how do you pronounce "MSShell?" Is it "Michelle" like the Beatles song, "mis-sel" as in ICBM, or "MS Hell" as in what happens when you use Windows?
  • Although it's been proven that it's a common vulnerability in *all* shells, there's something to be said about the average windows user.
  • Idea (Score:5, Funny)

    by sneakers563 ( 759525 ) on Friday August 05, 2005 @07:25PM (#13254608)
    You could build a pretty good operating system from all the stuff that's been pulled out out Vista. Maybe Microsoft could take all that extra stuff and come out with a "Platinum" version of Vista; call it "Longhorn" or something.
  • by ItsJustLilOldMe ( 849627 ) on Friday August 05, 2005 @07:26PM (#13254619)
    "it will be included on a major server operating system for servers

    Welcome to the department of redundancy department...

  • If MS starts removing components that have the potential to be exploited by a virus, does that mean that IE has be removed too? ;) I guess the next version of Windows will be Dos!
  • Dear God MORON... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Manip ( 656104 ) on Friday August 05, 2005 @07:27PM (#13254632)
    Mohad was NOT in Vista before all this sudo-virus junk appeared. It was taken out MONTHS ago! Microsoft have been saying for MONTHS that it will not appear in Vista but WILL appear in Longhorn Server.

    Now some attention seekers claim they created a virus, which is no more powerful than anything you could currently do in VBScript and gets headlines. Now you link to a blog that says "There is no virus threat [TRUE!] and Mohad will not be in Vista [TRUE]" and conclude that A == B?! Dear god you people!
    • by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 05, 2005 @08:58PM (#13255241)
      I wish you and your rational-thinking ilk would get the hell off slashdot. You're ruining all our M$ bashing and hot-buttoned emotionalism!

      I think I speak for the majority of slashdot when I say we are here to be told what to think, not to think for ourselves.
  • People will be arrested for distributing Vista Binaries when they DON'T run p2p applications on their computers.

    I have become enlightened.
  • I looked at the article that reported this so called virus earlier and all I have to say is it has been blown out of proportion. I had guessed that whoever wrote the "virus" hasn't had much exposure to other shells like BASH because writing a simple BASH script to destroy files is trivial.

    The only way that these shells, which give a lot of flexibility and power to their users, are going to work is if there is a decent permission system to keep the bad scripts from doing any real damage. If they haven't do

    • At the same time, I'm disappointed that they haven't tried to avocate the proper use of permissions as in "See? If you use the NT permissions to segergate your files then it wouldn't be a problem in the first place."
      What's the use of assigning proper permissions if every user has Admin privileges anyway? But maybe that's part of what you're talking about...
  • by thirty2bit ( 685528 ) on Friday August 05, 2005 @07:32PM (#13254681)
    Quick - somebody find vulnerabilities in the WPA and DRM modules. Bonus if you find buffer overflows in the "make Windows unstable" DLLs.
  • We're told that yet another feature won't be present in Windows Vista by someone who seems to think that there won't ever be a virus capable of penetrating Vista's "security". These Microsoft guys crack me up!

    ...What do you mean he wasn't joking?

  • I thought it was already pulled a few weeks ago because they couldn't have it ready in time. Now they are saying they are pulling it because there are hacks against it??? Geesh.

    Windows who? IMO

  • by xiphoris ( 839465 ) on Friday August 05, 2005 @07:36PM (#13254715) Homepage
    A clue should've been the title of the article linked to []: "A virus for Windows Vista? Wrong."

    From TFA:
    "First of all, in examining the details of the reports, there is no Windows Vista virus described in them. ...The viruses do not attempt to exploit a software vulnerability and do not encompass a new method of attack."

    If one had read either of the two articles linked, one would realize that the so-called "viruses" are nothing more than malicious scripts. No software hole is exploited; the viruses are no more dangerous than any arbitrary piece of code running on your system.

    They are not viruses; they only have the privileges that a user gives them. They're the same as any other executable file.

    If a stranger sends you an executable, be it a script or a compiled program, and you run it, you're already in trouble. These scripts are nothing special.

    Did the article author even read what he was submitting? The author states, "because of the possible virus threat that targets Monad the shell will not be included in Windows Vista", which could not be more deliberately misleading, and is contracted by both articles he links to!
  • by Zocalo ( 252965 ) on Friday August 05, 2005 @07:38PM (#13254731) Homepage
    All of the promised new and potentially interesting "pillars" of Longhorn/Vista have been snipped, and now they have cut the promised wonder-shell from the consumer version too? The only thing left that Vista now seems to offer over XP is a new interface theme and the probabilty that you will also need a new PC in order to meet it's realistic hardware requirements. I could get all of that right now without the hardware upgrade using any of several Windows desktop "enhancement" tools. Oh, and IE7, which will also be available for XP anyway for those who haven't already switched over to Firefox or Opera. Seriously, is there *anything* else in Windows Vista that I might actually want to upgrade for?

    Is this really the best response that Microsoft can come up with at a time when there is so much increased dissatisfaction with their endless upgrade cycle? If it is, then the F/OSS communities should probably increase their efforts to target the corporate desktop, because Microsoft doesn't appear to have anything of substance for several years! I'll bet Steve Jobs is laughing too; he's certainly picked the right time to go through the traumas of switching architecture.

    • and now they have cut the promised wonder-shell from the consumer version too?

      I not so sure a consumer version really needs a command line utility anyway. But what surprises me is that this is much of an issue. In the right (or wrong or nube) hands, bash is dangerous too. Big deal. Monad should have been left in, although it really needs a name that doesn't sound like an alien sex organ.

      • I not so sure a consumer version really needs a command line utility anyway.

        Sorry, perhaps I should have said "desktop" version instead. Sure, the average home user probably doesn't even know that CMD.EXE exists, but that version of Windows also becomes the corporate desktop OS. I was actually looking forward to having a half-decent shell scripting environment on Windows because it does have a lot of administrative uses. Far more functionality in login scripts primarily, but also for command line file

    • All of the promised new and potentially interesting "pillars" of Longhorn/Vista have been snipped

      Oh, it will still have lots of shiny new "technologies" for developers who want to lock themselves into Vista and XP. But that's about all.

  • Monad was not going to be shipped with Vista since the announcement of Vista. Read something about it on

    Also, this [] story also states the same thing.

    Also, it's not the shell that is's the fact that most Windows users are still, to this day, forced to run as administrator to run some random programs that you shouldn't need Admin rights for either. Also, these same users do not know better and also whine when they have to type in a password. You can't change behavior that has
  • by mcc ( 14761 ) <> on Friday August 05, 2005 @07:40PM (#13254754) Homepage
    Or at least the worst in several years. The blurb says basically the exact opposite of what the link says. May I suggest one of the /. editors add a little "update: the above is wrong in every way" to the end?
  • by ChiralSoftware ( 743411 ) <> on Friday August 05, 2005 @07:44PM (#13254777) Homepage
    "/bin/sh has been associated with security problems in the Unix world since the early 70s. Most Unix/Linux security situations arise when an unauthorized user gets access to the /bin/sh process. Fedora Core 5, due out in October, will not include this dangerous executable. Instead users will control the system through the advanced Gnome windowing system and will be able to develop object-oriented network-transparent applications in the MONO framework."

    mobile search []

  • So this morning everyone enjoyed bashing M$ for their yet again voulnerable software. Even thought 'the virus' was just a script which, as in every shell, could do some damage.

    Now M$ reacts in the most secure way and takes more time to make sure it's really idiot proof, and investigate how to make it actually safe the /.-crowd is bashing some more as M$ would be incompetent and slacking.

    I don't like M$ either, but it's a bit disturbing that an otherwise rather intelligent crowd just goes into uncontrollab

    • The problem here is that NT has lacked a decent shell with scripting capabilities since the very beginning. The joke is that *nix has had them for decades, but in the 21st century, MS still can't do it.
    • and takes more time to make sure it's really idiot proof, and investigate how to make it actually safe the /.-crowd is bashing some more

            That's because the /. crowd knows that it won't be idiot proof, and it won't actually be safe. Call us cynical if you want, but would you care to bet money on it? :)
  • by gullevek ( 174152 ) on Friday August 05, 2005 @07:46PM (#13254791) Homepage Journal
    walked around the park.
    One was WinFS and fell into a hole.

    9 little windows Vista features walked around the park. The new shell slipped and fell into the pool and drowned.

    8 little windows vista features walked around the park. DRM bully came and whacked them all dead.

    No new Windows Vista features were left alive, so Microsoft put some new colors in and everybody bought it.
  • If they're leaving out everything exploitable, how can they ship it with IE?

    Or, is this their way of telegraphing that we should consider IE no longer exploitable, because they haven't pulled it?

    Probably somebody was making fun of them for putting in a command line just to catch up with the Unixy crowd.

  • Once again, another angry, MS-hating, troll-liking Slashdot poster makes up his/her own story - that MONAD will not be included in Vista because of virus threat mentioned on Slashdot. Nothing could be further from the truth. On RTFA, nowhere does it mention the so-called "reason" for not including it in Vista - the simple fact of the matter is - it's not ready yet! Say what you have to say, the poster just wants a kick out of baseless, worthless and utterly mindless comments.
  • My submission was titled "Vista has no Monads", but I guess that must have been too racy.
  • But CNet joins the party too.

    I'm embarrassed for the industry. I mean, come on. The facts:

    - Monad has scripting functionality. OMG, scripts can do bad things! What do you expect, AI that detects if a script has malicious intent?

    - Monad has been out of Vista for a long time. Long before the stupid "virus" FUD started.
  • In what the world has proclaimed to be one of the most tautological summaries ever, Slashdot today confirmed that server operating systems are intended to run on servers with codenames that contain the word "server".

    I feel I have just bitten on a rather large hook. Even the editors are trolls these days :-)
  • So if I make a demonstration virus with a .BAT file, can I get Microsoft to leave the MS-DOS shell out too?
  • We've known for over a month that Monad wasn't going to make it in Longhorn, aka Vista.,1995,182 6007,00.asp?kc=MWRSS02129TX1K0000535 []

    The real reason is that MS hasn't been able to get it to work well enough to put in there.

    The fact that it's insecure is well... since when has Microsoft products ever been secure?? Like releasing insecure program has ever been a problem for them? in the past? I think not!

    It's too bad in a way. If they had gotten to work, if it could be
  • I saw a demo of Monad in March up in Redmond, given by their chief in-house Linux guy, an ex-IBM guy and founder of (R.I.P.), Bill Hilf []. It would be ironic if this shell was so insecure, having come from guys that are so experienced with *nix-like security.

    As for functionality, the shell looked really cool. It had a lot of *nix-like features on steroids, and integrated nicely with the .NET programming framework. It'd be nice if they can get the security bugs/features worked out and deliver it
  • As far as i can see they've removed almost anything that could be called a new feature. All that will be left is new drm capabilities that benefit M$ and the RIAA. They should give the thing away for free.
  • by bjk4 ( 885 ) on Friday August 05, 2005 @08:29PM (#13255056) Homepage
    I can't believe the slashdot editors let this submission go through. To quote the author:
    "First of all, in examining the details of the reports, there is no Windows Vista virus described in them."

    "The viruses do not attempt to exploit a software vulnerability and do not encompass a new method of attack."

    "...there is no relation between Monad and Windows Vista Beta 1."
    The author is pretty clear that the reported virii had ZERO effect on the choice to include monad or not.

    Yet somehow the submitter was able to conclude "...because of the possible virus threat that targets Monad the shell will not be included in Windows Vista.". Will wonders ever cease to exist!
  • Install cygwin instead! [] or, better yet.. USE a UNIX flavor!
  • Monad has been rumored to be out of Vista for quite a while:,1995,182 6007,00.asp?kc=MWRSS02129TX1K0000535 []

    If you read the text of the story from the MS guy, he never implies that it was removed b/c of security breaches. Oh wait, forgot about the /. filter.
  • its seems crazy to me to remove the security hole from one, yet include it on the server where the maximum disruption is likely to be caused.

  • It's been common knowledge for some time now that Monad would NOT be included in Vista, but either in a later version or in Exchange Server or some other Microsoft server product.

    All this article says is that some bozo at Microsoft has said the same thing vis-a-vis the virus concepts being reported in some hacker zines (see related /. story lower down.) In other words, Microsoft spin time is back in town...

    This article should be treated as nothing more than an "update" of the Monad virus article - and not m
  • Since the entirety of the linked articles have been egregiously misrepresented by the summary text, I would like to add a few more claims.

    Monad has already cured cancer, you need only purchase Windows Vista to innoculate yourself.

    Monad is an anagram for NadMo, which is Bill Gates' name for his Johnson.

    Monad is also an anagram for "O, Damn!" which is funnier in Old English than Japanese.

    The terrifying virus that terrified Microsoft into pulling Monad was written by a Linux sleeper cell with a creamy terroris
  • by AnalogBoy ( 51094 ) on Friday August 05, 2005 @11:19PM (#13255952) Journal
    Slashdot has always been anti-microsoft, and in most cases zealously so, but this is just taking it too far. Many valid points are made here, but if the community wants to keep its self-respect, it makes no sense to allow blatantly inflammatory and untrue stories to come across the front page like this. I am a beta tester for Monad. it is nothing special - wmic + cmd + more scripting abilities. msh is not ready for prime time. I can't honestly believe that we're now bashing microsoft in the damned if they do damned if they don't way. They don't release it because it's not ready - the bastards can't write a program! They do release it and it's not up to snuff. Damn them! They released more faulty software!

    I understand the nature of slashdot. I used to be one of the linux zealots prowling the area. I read the front page and, very rarely, the articles. Not quite sure what made me do it this time. But letting disinformation such as this leak to the front page scares me, when useful stories from people are ignored all the time.

Variables don't; constants aren't.