DVD-Audio's CPPM Circumvented 415
Bodysurf writes "After DVD-Video's CSS encryption was broken in 1999, the music industry chose a much more secure copy-protection method for DVD-Audio called Copy Protection for PreRecorded Media (CPPM). This protection scheme has remained publicly uncracked, but it was circumvented recently, providing the ability to save the unencrypted digital audio data. CDFreaks has the details."
And no one is shocked (Score:5, Insightful)
And we will take it by any and all means.
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, wait, all we did was hack their encryption. Nevermind....
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:5, Funny)
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:5, Informative)
That should read: We deserve our fair use and we will take it back by any and all means.
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:3, Informative)
Good point. Thank-you.
Since this is being tried in both the courts of law and of public opinion it is important to keep the argument sane, salient and factual. We are only wanting to keep that to which we are already entitled by law.
Those who fight against fair use are behaving unethically.
Re:The DMCA is a law (Score:5, Insightful)
You are being somewhat selective in your civic values.
I do not think so. As someone who worked as a Customs Inspector for almost a decade and seized many many hardware and software components under the DMCA, I have a keen understanding of the intention and use of the DMCA. It was implemented with the intention of curbing the flow of violative software and the hardware that enabled use of illegal software. It also enabled businesses to better control their marketing districts.
Preventing consumers from fair use activities was never part of the stated reason for the legislation nor were we ever instructed during our briefings to look for articles that would prevent consumers from manipulating legitimate (legally obtained and distributed) software and hardware.
My background stated, I will also assert that I have no problem putting copyright violators in jail or with the seizure of illegally produced and distributed works. I am not advocating any type of free-for-all. I believe people should be fairly compensated for their efforts.
However, /. dislike: My favorite was the court decision that third-party garage door openers are NOT a violation of the DMCA because Congress never intended the DMCA to limit consumer options. Good ruling but this is why I have become cynical about the current usage of the DMCA. It is no longer being applied to the "bad guys" but instead is being increasingly used by corporations to lock consumers out of their rights and choices.
since my time as an Inspector, I have observe many businesses try to warp the usage of the DMCA to their own ends. And not just the usual targets of
The manipulation of the DMCA in effort to extort more money out of the consumer or monopolistically control the consumer is unacceptable and unethical.
I stand by my previous statement.
Re:The DMCA is a law (Score:3, Interesting)
Why should businesses be allowed to "better control their marketing districts"? This seems very anti-competitive and non-free-market, why should we pass laws to encourage it? After all, if companies are free to outsource to places where prices are cheap, thus lowering wages here, why shouldn't consumers be allowed to do the same thing by buying items someplace where they have to price it cheaply? Why should they be able to have their cake and eat it too?
Re:??? Score 5 and Informative? (Score:4)
"free use" is not the same as "fair use" thus my suggested change...
"And we will take it by any and all means" is hostile and makes it sound like we started this mess. The way I suggested it be rewritten shows that the media conglomorates are using their power (via their deep pockets) to steal it from us and we are going to take it back.
I fail to see how you couldn't understand that in the first place.
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:3, Interesting)
Or do you hate our freedoms?
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:3, Insightful)
As the old saw goes, your freedom ends the second your fist touches my nose. Fair use is one thing, stealing from the people who create and make the things you would enjoy is something else entirely...
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:5, Insightful)
However, someone who just wants to have the convenience of hearing their music regardless of what computer they are using, or perhaps be able to listen to it on the hi-fi upstairs, and when they are working, in the computer room upstairs without having to fish out the disc are frustrated. They aren't stealing, they aren't doing anything morally wrong. The pirates will still pirate regardless of what measures are put in place, but people just wanting to hear their music anywhere will just find it annoying (and probably won't buy DVD-A discs, I certainly won't be buying any).
The day all music is DRMed such that it can't be trivially cracked is the day I stop buying music. I'm not interested in pirating it, after all I've bought three albums of Magnatune this week and it's trivial to listen to the entire albums for free at Magnatune if you are a cheapskate. Part of the reason I'm willing to buy from them is that they do NOT drm the music, so I can put it on my PowerBook, or put it on my Linux workstation, or on my NFS server and just pick it up from anywhere in the house. Part of the reason I'm willing to buy music from iTunes is that JHymn exists and it's trivial to strip off the DRM so I can put the music on my server and listen to it anywhere.
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:5, Insightful)
That's actually the best response anyone can make. As long as corporations perceive that people are stealing from them, they're going to defend their property with everything they have.
Let people turn away to legal alternatives and new models, however, and they have no alternatives. Then they either change or die.
Otherwise, the arms race will continue...
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:5, Insightful)
Scenario 4) Someone buys the record. Record company engages in creative accounting. Result: Artist doesn't get the royalty.
Seems no matter what the scenario, the result is the same. So either the result mustn't be all that's important, or every action is equally bad.
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, and CPPM prevents it (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I'm sure some will do it now that they can (Score:5, Informative)
By upping the sample rate to 96Khz, the nyquist frequency is so high (48Khz), that the filter requirements aren't nearly so high, and that any artificats that do creep in do so at frequencies well beyond our hearing.
Even on modest gear, it makes a difference.
And by modest, I'm putting the system price at say $2000 (receiver, dvd player, speakers).
Granted, the D/A stage doesn't need these expensive filters that the recording stage does, but it gives the recorders a lot more lattitude to make GOOD recordings. But mass-market CDs sound like crap. The compress (dynamic compression) the hell out of the audio. A well done recording with a bit of dynamic range sounds so much better than most pop recordings do.
16 bits gets you about 96dB of dynamic range possible. 24 bits gets you 145dB of range. Again, the 16 bit version is on the edge of hearable. The 24 bit version isn't. But 96dB is definitely not bad for most systems.
But that's where the dynamic compression comes in, as most CDs I hear have very little dynamic range, and they push it out far enough close to the max volume that the disc can record to cover up any noise in the playback system at low signal levels.
CD-Audio is adequate, but not capable of really replacing high quality analog. DVD-Audio's rates are (the audiophiles mostly agree that the data-rate is higher than they can distingusih, although they'll probably complain about warmth/veiled highs, etc, their perogative, I guess).
Most modern recordings are aimed at playback on low-grade consumer hardware, both home/mobile. The noise floor in mobile audio is enough that very dynamic recordings tend to become half unintelligible, and half earsplitting. When the same CD, in a quiet room in a house, is wonderful (drums have massive impact, but quite passages are, well, quiet). Unfortunately, this is performed at the recording studio, instead of being performed in the car stereo (compressors can be cheaply implemented in the DSP that's dealing with all the rest of the sound-shaping that low-end gear does).
So, unless the recordings really try to take advantage of the format, we'll have the audio equivalent of ball-park hotdogs served on china with silver and crystal.
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:5, Insightful)
I know it gets thrown around in here a lot, but if you really wanted to piss them off and make them think about what they are doing, STOP BUYING THEIR CRAP. But more than that, don't download it either. Embargo them on all fronts. Watch them adapt or die. Too bad I'll never see this happen, what with the majority of my country (and apparently the world) being led around by the short and danglies by the RIAA. Like bands don't exist unless they have massive media hype, a video on MTV, and a shamelessly promoted 'world tour'.
Makes me want to start my own music distribution just to show it can be done without the RIAA.
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:2)
Most bands don't exist w/o that -- at least they don't in the eyes of most people. Most people sit at home glued to their major media shows, force fed conglomorate TV, and listening to their conglomorate owned/sponsored radio.
God forbid you have to search around for some different stuff to listen to! God forbid they might have to leave their comfort of their own homes to see a show and su
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:2)
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:4, Informative)
>distribution just to show it can be done
>without the RIAA.
It's called http://cdbaby.com/ [cdbaby.com]
Enjoy !
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:5, Insightful)
The RIAA would be at your door within hours:
"Say, dat's a nice group you got dere. It'd be a shame if somethin' happened to it..."We got dis RIAA contract we'd like you to sign... umm, sign right here. Yeah, it's a real luxury havin' a drummer with two good arms, you know... real luxury..."
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:5, Insightful)
'The Buggles' said it best:
"Video killed the radio star."
It's hard to find good music these days by listening to the radio, because they're just playing the tracks that look good on television. Flashy women or six-packed men appeal to the audience that the MTV or HMV bosses can make money from; but they can't play well, and they can't sing well. Hell, even Robbie Williams is a second rate singer, both as part of "Take That" and as a solo singer.
"You can't see tits on the radio", but that won't stop people buying Kylie Minogue, or whoever is the latest fashion in pop, because that's what it is: Music is fashion. Gucci, Niki, et al make a fortune selling tat, but they make money because they're "fashionable".
French Connection get away with selling - in the UK - t-shirts saying "FCUK - you" to 10 year old kids, because it's fashionable.
No one cares about music, no one even cares what ten year old kids have plastered to their chests, so long as it's fashionable.
How do you stop it being fashionable? That is the question. A few thousand people not buying the 'Crazy Frog' single won't make one iota of difference so long as it remains fashionable. Stop the RIAA, and the BPA's records, and their stars being fashionable, and perhaps you have a chance.
But how do you do that?
Re:And no one is shocked (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's be honest: most of the stuff on MTV is crap, no? So is most of the indie stuff that's NOT pimped by the RIAA. So I listen to the radio, and when I hear something I like, I tape it (legally accepted fair use). Then I turn THAT tape into an mp3. I can go in with an ed
Re:And no one is shocked-Human Nature. (Score:5, Funny)
That's what the Right to Arm Bears [northernsun.com] is all about
Oh god, that is funny (Score:2, Insightful)
Wise man once said... (Score:5, Insightful)
"To view it, we have to decrypt them. If we can decrypt them, we can rip them."
The only "secure" media format is a CD laminated between two plates of steel.
Re:Wise man once said... (Score:2)
Re:Wise man once said... (Score:2)
No doubt you could still extract the data from such a CD. AFAIK steel is not completly opaque to X-rays.
Re:Wise man once said... (Score:3, Informative)
"To view it, we have to decrypt them. If we can decrypt them, we can rip them."
That wise man was Bruce Schneier [counterpane.com]. Check out his book [amazon.com] for a very readable yet detailed overview of crypto...
Always remember the hacker's credo (Score:5, Insightful)
Gotta love fair use!
Visualize Whirled P.'s
More appropriate credo for this situation (Score:2)
Just wait... (Score:5, Funny)
Its like Tide... its new and improved? You mean there are people STILL working on Tide? (Yeah I know, Seinfeld!)
Re:Just wait... (Score:2)
The only way to stop it is by very seriously limiting what computers can do. Even then, there's nothing stopping you plugging the output from the sound card into anoth
Learn a lesson? (Score:5, Interesting)
CSS for DVDs didn't stop ripped DVD movies being downloaded by millions. Why does the recording industry think that some new encryption scheme will stop music pirates? All such encryption does is make the lives of legitimate users hard.
Re:Learn a lesson? (Score:2)
Or is this new scheme something that requires a whole new player to understand it?
The CDFreaks link is down and I couldn't find anything on a quick google other than the specs. And I don't want to read a spec sheet!
Slashdotted already? (Score:5, Funny)
Now I can rip this stuff off to 64K MP3, then convert it over to Real, and finally through to it's final form as a DRM'ed WMA.
Re:Slashdotted already? (Score:5, Insightful)
The people who trade that kind of stuff are not going to bother sending DVD Audio around. I mean it is on the order of 50MB per MINUTE compressed.
The kind of people who have the money for a system that you can appreciate the extra detail on aren't going to squabble much about buying the discs.
Re:Slashdotted already? (Score:2)
Re:Slashdotted already? (Score:3, Funny)
Except when the voices talk over it.
Tools are at RareWares (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.rarewares.org/ [rarewares.org]
Alternative discussion here (Score:5, Informative)
A little early, boys and girls. (Score:2)
Geez, couldn't you at least wait until some good stuff was released on the format before cracking it?
Now the copyright cartel will probably just kill the format, and try again with stronger encryption.
This, of course, is not meant by me to imply that any form of mass-consumer DRM is at all uncrackable. They're all doomed in my view.
So I guess it is more fun this way. Crack it early, and hope they come up with something more interesting. More challenging.
Re:A little early, boys and girls. (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem isn't so much the strength of the encryption. It's more that they are trying to use encryption to do something encryption isn't very good at doing.
This, of course, is not meant by me to imply that any form of mass-consumer DRM is at all uncrackable. They're all doomed in my view.
Hence they are often combined with legislation to attempt to outlaw cryptoanalysis.
Re:A little early, boys and girls. (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not saying the effect will be huge, or even noticeable. For one, as mentioned, the industry can r
Great (Score:2, Funny)
MIRROR / CACHE (Score:4, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:they can opt out of this arms race (Score:3, Insightful)
Software page (Score:5, Informative)
"DVD Audio Tools", second from bottom.
It's a start... (Score:5, Interesting)
While certainly useful for WinDVD users who aren't able to do this natively (guessing that Windows can't do this redirection natively, hence the news story), this is really "circumvention" at its most basic level. Well, almost...one step up from sticking a tape recorder next to your speakers. Not quite the "fair use" that will "break open" the DVD-Audio market that many posters will no doubt clamor over, and nowhere near a true solution to the problem.
And to those familiar with this patch: Is the output even in a standard format capable of more than two channels?
Re:It's a start... (Score:2)
Re:It's a start... (Score:3, Interesting)
What was the purpose of DVD-Audio? (Score:3, Interesting)
But the reputation of the format here on /. is that it was created because they (the RIAA) wanted to prevent ripping. So which is it?
The problem with the "prevent ripping" choice is that, AFAIK, there are no releases on DVD-A that isn't also available on CD.
Re:What was the purpose of DVD-Audio? (Score:3, Informative)
Both. It just depends on who you are.
The CD format is hopelessly unprotected, but it's also got a huge installed base. If you want people to change you're going to have to convince them that it's an upgrade: higher bit rate, better sepration, liner notes and titles. Then they can slip in what they really want: copy protection. That's the primary goal; the other features are the spoonful of sugar to make the bitter pill go down.
So both properties (features and copy protection) are the "
Re:What was the purpose of DVD-Audio? (Score:3, Insightful)
DVD-What? (Score:5, Insightful)
Losing Battle (Score:2)
Instead of companies giving up on protection, I would love to see them give a nod to the hackers by making it something really simple like a key of "12345". How much does your job suck when you design this encryption? You know that the work you did for the last 10 years will last about 2 days.
Re:Losing Battle (Score:2, Funny)
Protest agasint the format (Score:5, Interesting)
Funny thing is, that kids today can control the industry as they are the main buyers of the music.
FINALLY! (Score:5, Funny)
36 titles at risk! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:36 titles at risk! (Score:4, Informative)
Ralph Wiggums (Score:3, Funny)
"Me fail English? Thats unpossible" --Ralph Wiggums
Windows Media (Score:2, Insightful)
(Yeah, I know Freeme cracks the old version)
Does This Actually Help? No. (Score:5, Insightful)
As cited in the article, this only compromised WinDVD. CPPM, like CSS, has player keys that are specific to the player hardware/software being used. This did not actually reclaim the player key from WinDVD, and even if it did, the player key can be deactivated in future releases, so that future DVD-Audio DVDs can still play. Hence, for true cracking, all of the player keys need to be discovered.
Furthermore, if only WinDVD is compromised, it will send a signal to content companies to support such formats as SACD, as the format's design naturally prevents playback (and hence any sort of ripping) on computers entirely (as the technology has not been licensed).
Good for the sellers (Score:3, Insightful)
This is just the same thing. Right now, DVD audio is an obscure thing that few people have heard of or seen around, and even if you know it exists, you gotta be crazy to buy one. Now it should become less crazy, and publishers will start to have a reason to use the format.
You just can't seriously be in the market until your format is usable. It's just common sense.
Not been cracked (Score:3, Informative)
As usual, too many people lose sight of the goal of encryption. It's not to be "foolproof" where no one can make copies, it's to make it hard enough that the casual music fan decides it's easier just to buy the music than go through the hassle of installing software.
Revoking Keys, Corporate Warfare, Mischief Aboundi (Score:4, Insightful)
1: Company A cracks Company B's more successful player and distributes said crack over Usenet.
2: Company B's keys are revoked, rendering their players useless.
3: PROFIT!
A 3-steps to Profit is a short pipeline indeed.
Re:Yawn... (Score:2)
Re:Yawn... (Score:2)
Re:Yawn... (Score:2)
-matthew
Re:That took a while, eh? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:That took a while, eh? (Score:2)
You are correct! Perfect example would be SCO Unix.. there hasn't been a bug in that system in years.. maybe because the only people still using it is the SCO Group...
---
Hi Mom!
Re:That took a while, eh? (Score:2)
High resolution, multichannel audio is a good thing - much better than lossy compression on crappy downloaded tracks. It's a shame more people haven't realized that.
Re:That took a while, eh? (Score:3, Insightful)
If the situation were sane, people would buy more DVD-Audio.
Re:That took a while, eh? (Score:3, Insightful)
I think a real problem for DVD-A is the previous two decades of direct-to-digital production. If a recording was made to 16/44.1 stereo masters, there's absolutely no point in releasing it on high definition multichannel media. The best you can hope for is to sound exactly like the CD, and what's more
Re:That took a while, eh? (Score:3, Insightful)
What's more, I really don't think most people could tell the difference anyway, because so many people have poor and/or damaged hearing thanks to all the loud noises we're exposed to constantly, or thanks to age.
Re:That took a while, eh? (Score:5, Funny)
because it wasn't until last week that someone actually bought a DVD-Audio disk
Re:That took a while, eh? (Score:3, Insightful)
Because so few people care about DVD Audio? Most people's ears (and rooms) aren't good enough for 24/96 audio. My interest in high-end audio disc formats ends with DTS, which was a real clever hack in how it used a standard CDDA audio data stream.
Re:That took a while, eh? (Score:2)
There's not all that much interest in DVD-audio. PC sound systems are generally pretty crappy (yeah, right, that little wall-wart powered speaker really puts out 320 watts like it says on the box!).
There are advantages to putting a lot of audio on a single disk (no more "Wagner ring cycle on convenient 45's" for any readers old enough to remember what a 45 was) but I've never seen a publisher take real advantage of it. MP3's burned as regular data f
Re:That took a while, eh? (Score:2)
They just make it harder to play an audio CD on a PC my using autorun.inf and other such nonsense. Those are all cracked in a few minutes because that's how long it takes to rip them on a fast Linux box.
Re:That took a while, eh? (Score:2)
In this context "comes out" means that the format is being bought by a significent amount of people.
Maybe Jon Johansen was asleep for this one?
Maybe they don't sell these kind of DVDs in Norway.
Re:slashdotted already (Score:5, Informative)
Posted by Seán Byrne on 06 July 2005 - 09:50 - Source: Rarewares
When DVD-Video's encryption had been broken about 6 years back, the next generation of the Audio CD, DVD-Audio had been delayed for several months. It was originally to use the CSS2 encryption scheme, but the breaking of CSS meant the music industry no longer wanted anything to do with CSS in the new upcoming DVD-Audio format at the time. As a result, DVD-Audio took on Content Protection for Pre-recorded Media (CPPM), a much more advanced copy-protection system, which includes Key Blocks and watermarking and allows revocation (for compromised devices).
It was not long ago that DVD-Audio playback software came to the PC. For example Creative's SoundBlaster Audigy 2 comes with a DVD-Audio as well as WinDVD's DVD-Audio add-on. So, rather than try to compromise the DVD-Audio's encryption itself, someone has succeeded in making a patch that uses WinDVD to perform the decryption and playback, but instead pipes the decrypted audio output to the hard drive instead of the sound card. The patch which includes several tools requires WinDVD 5, 6 or 7 to work.
Several tools to work with DVD-Audio (read: ripping)
They require WinDVD 5, 6 or 7 installed, as they don't do the decryption themselves, and instead patch WinDVD to output the decrypted stream to disk instead of the sound card.
The tools are:
* DVD-A ripper: Intended to decrypt CPPM protected AOB and VOB files on DVD-Audio discs.
* PPCM ripper: Intended to capture Packed PCM (MLP) stream (stereo or multichannel) to
* DVD-A Explorer: Intended to peep&grab on DVD-Audio tracks (PCM and Packed PCM).
This tool is available at Rarewares here.
While InterVideo is likely to update its software to block the use of this patch, it appears that DVD-Audio's CPPM has been compromised at least in DVD-Audio discs up until this time or until the keys used in the current versions of WinDVD that this tool works on are revoked in upcoming DVD-Audio disc releases. However, this would also mean that WinDVD users would be forced to update their software to play future DVD-Audio discs.
Re:slashdotted already (Score:2)
* DVD-A ripper: Intended to decrypt CPPM protected AOB and VOB files on DVD-Audio discs.
* PPCM ripper: Intended to capture Packed PCM (MLP) stream (stereo or multichannel) to
* DVD-A Explorer: Intended to peep&grab on DVD-Audio tracks (PCM and Packed PCM).
This tool is available at Rarewares here [rarewares.org].
Why DRM is doomed to fail (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Copy Protection Is Dumb (Score:5, Funny)
Cool... would you burn me a copy or throw up a torrent?
Re:Copy Protection Is Dumb (Score:2)
More to the point they have failed to learn the lessons of 20 or so years ago. Where all sorts of exotic copy protection techniques were tried with software.
The real irony is that it is quite possible that some of the users of cracked software have actually bought licences for it.
Re:dvd jon? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:dvd jon? (Score:2)
Re:dvd jon? (Score:2)
I think the Apple iTunes DRM tug-o-war would be a better example of his more recent accomplishments.
Re:Slashdotted... (Score:2)
Re:Slashdotted... (Score:2)
Re:Why wasn't it done earlier? (Score:2)
Seems to me that's more something you do with video discs. The audio stuff uses a different encryption scheme, so I would tend to doubt you can do it that way -- your best shot would probably be the analog hole. The real issue is doing it digitally, and this is half a solution.
Re:Copy Protection? Yeah, right. (Score:2)
1) Record "wot u heer" in the same format as the original? (in this case, 24-bit 96 khz stereo/multi-channel audio)
2) Resample the audio? (Digital source>analog>digital file) All Creative Sounds cards do this, I'd say 99% of consumer level cards do this.
Re:Copy Protection? Yeah, right. (Score:4, Interesting)
That's a silly thing to say. You have a program that will let you record sounds as they come out of the sound card. So what? It's not in DVD-A format (which, in case you didn't know, is a high resolution format, much higher than CD.). Plus, your recording is in real-time, which makes it inconvenient for users to do. One reason MP3 encoding has caught on is because it takes 10 minutes to rip and encode a CD. I doubt it would be as popular if everything was recorded in real-time.
Re:Copy Protection? Yeah, right. (Score:3, Insightful)
I remember using l3enc to encode back in the day and it was slow as hell compared to today's tools (this was after using CDDA to rip the audio). This was probably more my machine than anything, but if I recall correctly, encoding was about real-time. It didn't stop anyone. All it takes is one person to do it and then it's ready for everyone els
Re:Copy Protection? Yeah, right. -- or Wrong! (Score:3, Funny)
And all the DRM system has to do is refuse to support your sound card.
End of discussion.
Re:This story is illegal, and it should be (Score:5, Insightful)
The purpose of CPPM (and just about every other DRM system) isn't to control piracy. As far as the pirates are concerned, most DRM systems are rendered irrelevant before the first protected media is ever produced. I can go online right now and download a DRM-free version of "Revenge of the Sith," but I couldn't acquire a protected version even if I wanted to. So when the DVD is released and it's "protected" by CSS, who are the studios trying to protect it from?
CPPM is similar. Connect to a P2P network and search for "DVDAudio." This stuff is already out there. If I want to get it without paying for it, I can download it right now, and this WinDVD patch is of no use to me whatsoever. If I'm a pirate, I don't give a shit. But if I'm an honest consumer and pay for my music in DVD-Audio format, then I have audio content that I can't play on my iPod. This is what this tool is useful for.
DRM doesn't control the pirate, it controls the honest consumer.
I feel like I make the same post every time there's a