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Businesses The Almighty Buck IT

SAGE 2004-2005 Salary Survey Announced 120

Posted by Zonk from the making-money-for-profit dept.
Nalez writes "The ever-popular SAGE Salary Survey is ready to go and available to all computer administrators. Everyone who participates will get a copy of the results. The survey takes 17-20 minutes to complete. SAGE members can access the 2003 results and you can read all about previous SAGE surveys."
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SAGE 2004-2005 Salary Survey Announced More

SAGE 2004-2005 Salary Survey Announced

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  • Are These Things Useful? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by DanielMarkham ( 765899 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @02:37PM (#12969743) Homepage
    I read these every year but I wonder how useful they are. I've never heard of anybody going to their boss with survey results to ask for a raise, and I can't imagine getting your pay cut because others are making more. Perhaps the benefit is in planning for new hires? Telling people you pay better than market rates?
    As a consultant, I don't use these to set my rates, and the information is usually historical rather than predictive -- what I'd like to know is what's going to be paying more next year, not last year. But I'm sure there are other uses. Makes for great gossip if nothing else.

    Speak Up About Poor Software Quality! [whattofix.com]
    • I always find the results to be way higher than what anyone I know in the industry makes, senior positions or not. You get results showing things like the average entry level Perl coder makes $50K.. are they heck! Perhaps I just know a lot of people who work at sweatshops.
    • It's hard to go to your boss with a request for a raise when there have been company-implemented pay-raise-freezes for several straight years. :)
      • I find scenarios like this terribly annoying.

        Wage slave: Can I have a raise.
        Management flunky: Of course not, there is a company wage freeze on.
        Wage slave: Ah, well, not your fault, that's OK then.

        By implementing it as policy, they are pretending there is nothing they can do about it. Effectively they don't need to be fair because they have given you advance warning that they are going to be unfair to everyone.

        • Annual layoffs and cutting 50% of your workforce keeps employees in line, too. When half the offices are empty, you're happy enough to have a place to be at 9:00am, much less give a damn about any raise.

    • Re:Are These Things Useful? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by bytemap ( 890960 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @04:16PM (#12970182)
      When I was a director of engineering, I noted they had the opposite effect. I knew I had to pay more to keep the REALLY GOOD people I had (this was leading up to 2001, granted), but the board of directors kept telling me that their salary surveys said we were already paying too much. Salary surveys don't tell the whole story. Talent counts for a LOT. And my staff was worth more than "standard."
      • These things are always hard to interpret and it's difficult to see significance in any trends. What does seem evident is that many corporations value talent in a different way now than they did 10 years ago. Talent for many companies now is thought of as a more common commodity with less unique value. Talent can be replaced now as easily as replacing a resource such as the office fax machine. This seems to be the sentiment and the reality is that with the more diverse work force you may always be able
    • You are so neive. Have you not been paying attention for the last 6 years or so?

      I can't imagine getting your pay cut because others are making more.

      No, but what they will do is lay someone off (ie, fire them) and then either outsource the job, or hire two two people at a lower rate when they need another employee (ie, there's more work than you're able to do).
    • I honestly think it's just interesting to know. Whether it does anything....I would say probably not. Companies that pay crappy wages will still continue to pay crappy wages. They may change, but it won't be a survey that makes it happen.
  • the answer always is 'not enough#....on a side note, fucking german kezboards!!!

  • Surveys are Meaningless (Score:3)

    by superpulpsicle ( 533373 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @02:41PM (#12969762)
    It doesn't matter if we punch in $20,000 or $50,000 or $100,000. The only important thing anyone needs to know out of the result... you are buying less for your dollar in 2005 than in 2004. Most U.S salaries including non-ITs are absolutely unportional to the economy.

    Average joe need to spend almost 70-80% of the their paycheck to maintain the same standard of living. Of course that is unless you got rich in the .com boom or spoiled the real estate market at your investment expense. In that case, none of this applies to you. Happy 4th.

  • Wait to they see this! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Crowbar ( 692255 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @02:50PM (#12969799) Homepage
    I imagine the survey will look a lot different next year if things keep going the way they are. The article below talks about a company out in California looking for a programmer at $15/hour.

    http://news.com.com/2061-10788_3-5770608.html [com.com]?
    ta g=ubind.bld

    June 30, 2005 3:26 PM PDT
    Coding for $15 an hour?
    Could a computer coding job paying just $15 per hour signal something's wrong with the tech world?

    That relatively measly amount is what's promised in an ad for a "ASP.NET Programmer" on the America's Job Bank site. The job, which calls for "at least 1 year's experience either in school, at work, or a combination of the two," is being offered by employment services company AppleOne, according to the ad.

    • Could a computer coding job paying just $15 per hour signal something's wrong with the tech world?

      There's nothing wrong with the tech world: once, programmers did this obscure, complicated thing called "coding". Nobody else could do it, it was new and cutting edge, and therefore they were paid very well and were very respected.

      Now, the industry has matured, computers are ubiquitous, programming languages, IDEs, operating systems, libraries... are numerous, well developed, documented, and the programmer o
    • That's only for 1 year of school. I'm sure there's much better offers for somebody with a BS in CS. There are, right?
    • This sounds like the qualification for an intern/co-op type of position. $15/hr is about right.
    • That's about right.

      That's 28 grand a year, before taxes. In Canada, that'd be enough to live comfortably (where the poverty line is about 16 grand before taxes). Unless you live in one of the expensive areas of the US, I suspect that'd be enough too. Hotel managers in Hawaii make about that, for example.

      Making that much money means you get more money per year than about 60-70% of the population. There is a large gap between rich and poor in the US.

      • In the US, I'd say anything less than 30K/year household income is poverty. Try raising a family of four in a single-wide mobile home, because that's what 30K/year will buy you these days.

        Housing is the real killer, IMO. Where I live, housing is going up 10%/year, which is modest relative to the insanity of the west coast. The cost of housing basically doubles every decade, and that _sucks_ for the middle class.

        Food really hasn't gone up much, because I've managed to switch to store brands when the bra
    • As someone earning loosely in the range of $20.50 an hour (I'm not paid hourly, or expected to work specific hours, which makes the calculation tricky :) ), I just thought I'd ask... ...so how much do you think programmers should be earning. I don't normally go for anecdotal evidence, but I'm not 100% convinced by a lot of numbers I see mentioned, so I'm looking for known salaries of programmers, and what qualifications they had to earn that salary?
    • I'm coding for $13/hr -- Canadian dollars. And I am the only Firmware/Software Engineer in the company with a lot of pressure to produce. I am thinking of moving to the United States for better opportunities. Maybe someone on Slashdot can help me.
    • You were thinking that an ASP.NET programmer with 1 year of experience was worth more than that?

      Most "programmers" with 1 year of experience are barely break even, asset/liability wise.

      You are entitled to nothing, least of all a job paying twice the average wage, for a skill with which you are barely a novice.
    • That's roughly what I make (with about 4 years of experience) depending on the exchange rate of the dollar to the euro.

      I can't believe the standard of living in the US. Wages are incredibly high, and prices are incredibly low.

      For the price of a two bedroom appartment in a poor neighbourhood here, you could buy a family home with a nice big yard and a car in the US. Food and clothes cost about twice as much here, and gasoline about the equivalent of 5 or 6 dollars per gallon, depending on the exchange rate

  • Depressing (Score:3, Funny)

    by dbarclay10 ( 70443 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @02:56PM (#12969830)
    Am I the only one who finds filling this out depressing?

    Especially when you fill out the bad bits about the current job. And see that you checked most of the boxes. And then realise that is says "please specify no more than three."

    *sigh*
    • Am I the only one who finds filling this out depressing?

      You sound like your current job doesn't satisfy you. Which lead to the question: why don't you consider finding another one? Are they hard to come by in your field?

      Personally, I have realized that the most important thing in a job is liking it. Because, apart from sleeping at night, working is the second most important activity in a 24h day. Therefore, if you don't like your job, you become miserable.

      For me, that meant changing field entirely and
      • Here here; I went back to school to be a psychologist!

        School is a lot of fun, I'm excited about what I'm learning and becoming, and I'll only have to live through 5 more years of financial instability before I'm money. And satisfied. And making my own hours. Doing something that I know helps people.

        Otherwise, I'd have a lifetime of financial instability to look forward to, along with long hours under a string of asshole bosses at shitty companies that produce no real wealth, scrimping and saving all the w
      • But what about us who have low-paying, shit jobs? I can't take a pay cut for a more enjoyable job, because my job's already the bottom of the barrel, and all the enjoyable jobs don't exist.
    • miserable jobs exist (partly) because people are willing to take them. if it's that bad, threaten to leave if changes don't happen. if you don't get what you want, go somewhere else (maybe even DO something else). start something with some friends or former co-workers. good jobs do exist, espically if you make them. the alternative is to have a simmering hatred of 1/3 of your day for the rest of your life. ya know, it's your call.
      • At most places of employment, if you threaten to leave, they say 'OK, close the door on your way out.' It just makes things a bit easier for the next round of layoffs.

        There's nowhere else to go. All the jobs are taken, that's why millions are unemployed. If you want a job you're at the end of a queue millions of people long.

        the alternative is to have a simmering hatred of 1/3 of your day for the rest of your life.

        I wouldn't call it a simmering hatred. I've pretty much come to terms with how shit it is,
    • Yeah, that's my exact situation.

      I didn't check any of the good things, and all, "Good, now I can check the bad things!" and got a huge limp one when I saw Icould only pick three. There were at least 4 which -needed- to be checked...

      Maybe it's time to check out another job.
  • Does anyone have decent Canadian Salary Data? I'm particularly interested in figure for the Ottawa area...

  • San Francisco Bay Area Quesiton... (Score:4, Informative)

    by __aaclcg7560 ( 824291 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @03:15PM (#12969900)
    Most of the PC Technician contracts I been getting in the San Francisco Bay Area are usually between $16 to $20 per hour. However, I been getting offers for work outside the SF Bay Area (mostly in Southern California) for $50 to $60 per hour for the same kind of work. Can anyone explain the difference?
    • Because the SF Bay Area is filled with people who can do it. I bailed out a long time ago, I was doing SA work there in 2001, and the wages were shrinking fast for new contracts. There is an entrenched group of Senior people who own houses and have local investments (kids in school and the like). They won't move out of the area because their life is there. Since they are fighting to protect their houses and mortgages they will work for dirt cheap. 16 year UNIX and Programmers will work for $36k/yr. Thats ju

      • Result of Linux: 16 years UNIX experience, $36k/yr (Score:5, Interesting)

        by AHumbleOpinion ( 546848 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @04:10PM (#12970158) Homepage
        16 year UNIX and Programmers will work for $36k/yr. Thats just sick.

        Why is everyone so surprised? Isn't this one of the expected outcomes of PC-based FOSS software like FreeBSD and Linux? I'm not saying this was a goal, just an anticipated side effect, the downside outweighed by the upside. When a particular field of knowledge and experience becomes commoditized the price that the knowledge and experience commands drops.

        In the early to mid 90s many people honestly believed that Unix was on the way out, that it was destined to become a niche. Few people invested much time in learning Unix, we used it in school and when the staff polled the CS majors about how the program could be improved a very popular request was classes on Windows programming. Thankfully the staff said that the university teaches concepts not the flavor-of-the-day OS, go learn to program Windows outside of class.

        So those people with Unix experience were rare and able to command high salaries. Now enter FreeBSD and Linux. Many CS student I knew didn't really care about the GPL or the politics, all they cared about was that they could do their Unix based homework assignments on their PC at home and not have to wait for machines in the lab or dial-in through a damn modem. A handful got into FreeBSD and Linux. Between the former and later groups Unix knowledge and experiece became widely available. If my company needs a website I don't have to go out and buy an expensive Sun box and hire expensive people with Sun experience. I can go out and get decent PC hardware and use FreeBSD or Linux and hire a far less expensive person to setup and maintain them. Sure the Sun hardware is more robust but for many businesses it doesn't really matter.

        I saw similar things at school. The university stopped buying Suns and purchased PCs and installed Linux. The vast majority of students and profs only needed a general purpose Unix desktop. The handful that had some very specialized need could get a Sun.

        This is all the rational expected outcome of FOSS software like FreeBSD and Linux. FOSS not only frees the users but it also frees the corporations, they are no longer "held hostage" by what Unix admins and programmers once jokingly labeled themselves: the "high priests".

    • Re:San Francisco Bay Area Quesiton... (Score:5, Funny)

      by Rosco P. Coltrane ( 209368 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @03:33PM (#12969976)
      I been getting in the San Francisco Bay Area are usually between $16 to $20 per hour. However, I been getting offers for work outside the SF Bay Area (mostly in Southern California) for $50 to $60 per hour for the same kind of work. Can anyone explain the difference?

      The hour is longer in socal. You can tell because all the job offers indicate "willing to be working long hours". Probably to prepare workers for life on another planet that spins more slowly on its axis or something...
    • The SF bay area has a lot of tech wealth -- i.e., smart money. In Socal its all old money and big media.

      There is also the (possible correlated) fact that the bay area is saturated with over-qualified techies, but they are somewhat rare in socal.

      I live in the bay area but almost all of my income comes from non-local sources. Local work just isn't worth it (unless its google, maybe).
    • This is an easy one to answer.

      Both jobs listed require on-site service calls,
      and neither includes travel time as billable.
      The SF area position includes mostly clients that
      can be readily accessed via BART and other public
      transportation. The LA position cannot make use
      of public transportation, because there isn't
      any such thing.

      A billable 8 hour day in SF works out to perhaps
      a 10 to 12 hour day, whereas a billable 8 hour day
      in LA isn't even possible for that same 12 hours.
      Subtract the cost of the personal a
    • I found this article [nytimes.com] on the New York Times about how Silicon Valley/SF Bay Area is changing.

  • For convenience, (Score:5, Funny)

    by HungWeiLo ( 250320 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @03:18PM (#12969912)
    For convenience, will they automatically convert the salaries to rupees?

  • Let's make this international (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Duke Machesne ( 453316 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @03:36PM (#12969987)
    ...and find out how much the average pay really is... I'm guessing somewhere in the neighborhood of $15 a day.

    Then everyone in the states making $15/hour could start to feel real fortunate when they fire up their microwave on another bowl of ramen.
    • It's all relative. I work for a multinational company, and I can tell you one thing. I make 32K in the states. My job in Tokyo pays 41K(USD). My job in Bangalore pays 19K(USD). And you know what? All of us do ok, because our buying power is determined by the local economy. So if I make like $32k and I'm happy, and they guy over in India makes $19k and we both have roughly the same spending power, who is to say that I make more than him? Maybe in absolute dollars, but certainly not in quality of life or buyi
      • Well, it's nice to know that everyone's making equally crappy wages, I guess.
        • Actually, I'm not in IT. For what I do, I make really good money(4.5% above market rate). My job is incredibly easy, albeit a little stressful.
        • It's odd that someone thinks 32k is a crap wage. Who are you, Bill Gates? I make 17k and I'm grateful for that (used to be 14k). I think some of you computer types are spoiled by the Dot Com era.
          • You make an average eight and a half bucks an hour (if they're not raping you on overtime, which they probably are) and you're happy about it?

            You ought to be pissed off. Pizza delivery boys make more money than you.

            $32k is a crappy wage. Knock off 20% for taxes, now you're down to $25600, which is only about $2130 a month.

            Figure $1000 for a home mortgage payment, $400 for a car payment, plus an extra $300 a month for property taxes and home insurance, plus an extra $200 for auto insurance, plus about $30
            • In that case, how the hell do you think anyone survives on $32k or less, bearing in mind that is above the median wage? According to you, there'd be hundreds of millions living on the streets, all with high-paying full-time jobs.

              If you're that stuck for cash, perhaps you shouldn't be spending so much on luxuries like cars and mortgages. How long do those car payments last? At $400 per month it shouldn't take you a year to pay it off. If you're spending $300 per month on utilities you're doing something wro
              • Yep, it is above the median wage, and it's still shit. That's why most people with these "high-paying" jobs are not land-owners in this wonderful 'property society' of ours. Most people rent shitty apartments, drive shitty cars, and still live paycheck to paycheck. Most people in this country have no medical coverage. None.

                This country is in a process known as proletarianization, along with a good part of the rest of the western world. We, the masses, are being relegated back to serfdom.

                What sort of warpe
                • I don't have a car, I get by fine. This 'car is necessary' crap is an entirely American thing. Some of us are able to walk or ride a bike, or live in countries with decent public transport. Americans can barely get to the end of their drive without a twelve-tonne SUV to get them there. And of course they complain about how much work they have to do to afford it.

                  In the current climate, buying a house when you can't afford it is a wrong move. Having your own house is a luxury. It's only a recent development
                  • Hey, yeah, that all sounds great.

                    Like, if I didn't want to live indoors, why I bet I could get by on only $5k a year. That would be just peaches and fucking creamy too. Hell, I can give up eating and be a goddamn wiseman professionally for just pennies a day.

      • Re:Let's make this international (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Lord Ender ( 156273 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @04:45PM (#12970321) Homepage
        Not really. If you can each live on 80% of your salaries and you invest the other 20% each year, the Tokyo guy would retire a multimillionaire while the India guy won't have nearly so much. Mr. Tokyo could cruise around the world in a yacht or something while Mr. India could never afford to travel the world.
        • Irrelevant. (1) You are off on a tangent given the GP's point regarding comparing local wages against the local economy. (2) A tangent about luxuries is a red herring. Can both individuals live comfortably, afford their children's local education, etc.
          • Um... you are very wrong. The poster said "By any measure of financial success." Whether someone can afford a yacht or not is difinitely a measure of financial success. To say two salaries are equal once you factor in the cost of living assumes both people spend 100% of their salaries in the local economy. Only an idiot would do that. Unless you are comparing 2 idiots, more money really is more money.
            • To say two salaries are equal once you factor in the cost of living assumes both people spend 100% of their salaries in the local economy. Only an idiot would do that.

              Every year billions of people pretty much only spend their income in their local economy. While most are poor some are very comfortable. Again, the world travel and yacht arguments are red herring.

              Unless you are comparing 2 idiots, more money really is more money.

              And the money vs money comparison is naive and simplistic, the real ec
              • Economic comparison is not about "wants." It is about power. Living in India gives you lower expenses, sure. But your real measure of power is how much money is in the bank at the end of the month after all your expenses are paid. That has nothing to do with where you live. I think you are confusing contentedness with financial success. The man with more money in the bank has the power to do more things after his expenses are met.
                • Economic comparison is not about "wants." It is about power ...

                  Economics is based upon "wants". Power is based upon "force".

                  ... I think you are confusing contentedness with financial success.

                  Not at all. I am saying that wanting a yacht and wanting to travel the world in style are arbitrary non-universal wants. To define a person's financial well being in terms of those is naive and simplistic. This tangent about luxuries is a red herring.
        • Well, the Indian would save 80% of his salary at a slightly higher interest rate, while the Tokyo guy would be able to save 20% (cost of living differences).

          Do the rest of the maths yourself :).
          • Um, what???? The speculation assumed both people lived on 80% of their salary. Are you trying to say that in India someone can live on 20% of his salary? And why on earth would India be able to make higher returns than Tokyo? It's a global financials market, dude.
            • India has a higher risk, so the interest rates are higher (we are about 2% over the US currently).

              And yes, you can live on as little as 100 USD.mth, and quite comfortably on 200 USD/mth. Average sysadmin salaries are between 2400 USD to 6000 USD per annum. If you are really good, 12000 USD pa (at current rates). So a 19K salary would be about twice what a _really_ good guy gets (The senior admins at MNCs w/ over 10 years of experience make about 17000 USD pa).
              • Well, you should be putting your money in the US stock market and not in India govt. bonds if you want real returns. And whether you live in India or the US, you can buy either type of investment.

                It is interesting that Indian expenses are so much lower. But to really compare how relatively wealthy you are, you need to measure how much money you have left over in the bank every month compared to the guy in the other country.
                • I believe the currently accepted measure of comparing incomes is purchasing power parity (PPP).

                  If you have a 1000 USD left over in the states, and 200 USD in India, the Indian can scrape through for two months, the guy in the states for one. That difference is the PPP.
  • I did my part to bring the averages down and broaden the standard deviations, by including my mid-sized city, midwestern, academic compensation in the dataset. The compensation results in these surveys are so alien to the job market in which I work that I don't know whether to laugh at them or just cry.
  • You're free to hand over your salary data but in order to see the results from 2 years ago you have to be a member?

    No thanks.

  • These Surveys Used To Sell IT Training (Score:5, Informative)

    by uncleroot ( 735321 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @04:40PM (#12970289)
    As someone formally employed in the IT certification training industry, I can tell you that the results of these surveys are often used by unscrupulous salespeople to sell expensive courses and training "kits" (over-priced boxes of cheaply bound, poor quality books and a CD or two) to gullible persons looking to get into IT. Let's say experienced Cisco admins are making $65k/year according to the survey. This information is pitched to prospective students to imply that they will make $65k if they just buy the $5000 CCNA course and pass the exam. Of course a CCNA and no job experience is unlikely to get you a job at all much less a high paying one. I'll name names: Intense School, Wave Technologies, TechSkills, and by far the worst, New Horizons.

    • Re:These Surveys Used To Sell IT Training (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Add another one called Quilogy to that list of unscrupulous tech mills. I had the dubious honor of working with them on both their consulting and training sides. What a joke. Not once did I hear anyone ask what is good for the students or clients, but rather how much can we bill them for? How many students can we get from XYZ Company into the one week $2000 Microsoft .Net intro course?
    • What's really sad is the US Air Force paid two of those companies to each teach me the same class (CCNA.) I was rather disgusted with the whole process, considering I told my supervisors to send someone who wasn't already capable of passing the test.
    • I'm not sure whether you meant that the people who do the surveys market IT training or that third parties do so, but let me make one thing clear: SAGE is a nonprofit membership organization, and we do not have salespeople market to participants of the Salary Survey (for that matter, we don't even have any salespeople).

      The Salary Survey is a service provided by SAGE to the public as part of our mission to "advance the status of computer system administration as a profession."

      Trey Harris
      Interim Director, S

    • As someone formally employed in the IT certification training industry

      I hope you meant formerly. ;-)

  • Nothing as Depresing as finding out that not only is my salary lower than the average fore any kind of computer geak job.

    It's not even in the same ballpark.

    I'm gona have to move.

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