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Australian Government Agency Moves Towards Linux 170

Posted by samzenpus from the change-is-good dept.
An anonymous reader writes "ZDNet Australia is reporting that Centrelink, the Australian government agency responsible for distributing social security payments, is investigating Novell's Open Enterprise Server as a method of consolidating huge chunks of its network. Centrelink's national manager is quoted as saying: "We have to look at remote access, virus protection, security. Linux has those capabilities but we have to assure our more senior executives that these boxes have the same level of security and protection as the commercial products""
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Australian Government Agency Moves Towards Linux More

Australian Government Agency Moves Towards Linux

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  • But (Score:1, Funny)

    by tarunthegreat2 ( 761545 )
    The thing is, does the Australian government run Linux? Yeehaw, first post. I rule! I beat the GNAA. Plus I have karma to burn. Bye now!

    • Re:But (Score:5, Insightful)

      by passthecrackpipe ( 598773 ) * <passthecrackpipe.hotmail@com> on Thursday October 28, 2004 @03:45AM (#10651455)
      well, no.. Novell Open Enterprise Server != Linux. It's primarily Netware, with bits of Linux thrown in. Extra, Extra, Read All About It! [novell.com]

      Some choice quotes:
      1. What is Novell Open Enterprise Server?
      [...]Open Enterprise Server delivers some of the best technologies and services developed by the open source community, as well as fully developed proprietary services that routinely solve business problems for enterprise customers. (because only proprietary services can solve business problems for enterprise customers?)

      5. What is happening to NetWare (and NetWare 7)?
      NetWare is a critical component of IT infrastructures around the world serving millions of users. It will continue to be the platform of choice for many customers. The NetWare roadmap is converging with the best the Linux community has to offer, SUSE LINUX Enterprise Server, and together they will make up Novell Open Enterprise Server. NetWare is not gone, but continues on as an important part of this new product offering. As Ed Anderson, vice president of Platform Services at Novell said in the Future of NetWare article, "Let me state this as clearly as I can: Novell is making investments in both NetWare and Linux. Novell Open Enterprise Server is proof we are supporting both, and they will be combined into one package. This will continue until customers' needs change."

      8. How will Novell Open Enterprise Server be licensed?
      Novell Open Enterprise Server will be licensed on a per-user basis. (the last company to try and license linux on a per-user basis was Caldera, just before they became SCO)

      Let me repeat - Novell OES is a *Netware* product, with bits of SLES9 thrown in. This is a *Netware* play. Linux is being used for marketing purposes, as well to ensure that real applications will actually work, since people stopped supporting Netware ages ago - in particular, look at FAQ number 22.

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • Re:But (Score:1)

        by natd ( 723818 )
        well, no.. Novell Open Enterprise Server != Linux. It's primarily Netware, with bits of Linux thrown in

        Rubbish. Novell OES will be whichever you want it to be. If you have legacy (Netware-wise..) apps which need the Netware kernel, then you can opt to use it. But for everone else you will be Linux 100%. On top of that Novell add the all important eDir, iManage, i Folder etc, file and print services, GroupWise, ZEN stuff and so on plus many otehr things.

        So basically the aim is to offer the same as NetW

      • I must disagree. Open Enterprise Server will come with the NetWare kernel and the SUSE Linux kernel. You can use either kernel to run all of the services you want (Novell services, GroupWise, eDirectory, etc, etc, OR the SUSE Linux services, postfix, apache, use yast and all that).

        It's really a transition product to get the NetWare people onto Linux by making all of the services available on both platforms. Even though Novell denies it, unless if something goes horribly wrong, knock on wood, the NetWare

        • Re:But --- it's both (Score:2, Informative)

          by natd ( 723818 )
          (Novell services, GroupWise, eDirectory, etc, etc, OR the SUSE Linux services, postfix, apache, use yast and all that).

          We're both correcting the parent post, but I'll just tighen up your response:

          (Novell services, GroupWise, eDirectory, etc, etc, AND the SUSE Linux services, postfix, apache, use yast and all that).

          The key change being "AND". There is no restriction on using both the traditional Linux services and the Novell offerings. The kernel is regular SuSe Linux, everything else works be it from No

          • Yes, that is correct! You get the best of BOTH worlds with OES. That's why it's so interesting (or should be interesting) to companies out there......

            Thanks.

            -m
        • I'm not sure what it is you are disagreeing with, really - I have seen roadmaps for OES 8 months ago, I know what it is, I know how Novell is positioning it, and I know what it will will do. Novell clearly states it is "two operating systems" - it says so in the FAQ I linked to, as well as in all the other literature. My company has been a Novell partner for a long time, so I have had access to OES for some time now.

          I would appreciate it if you could point out to me what bits of my post you disagree wit

      • Bah. It doesn't matter as much to me. Just as long it isn't another country paying Microsoft. It's a plus for the competition, and evidence that MS's bluster about TCO and transition and all that crap is really just... crap.

        Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers!

    • But the question is will all this make a difference in the monopoly created by M$?

  • Hello, Microsoft? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by lpontiac ( 173839 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @02:23AM (#10651143)
    I'd like a discount on my Windows licenses please!

  • probably another "get M$ to lower it's price" ploy (Score:5, Insightful)

    by arfonrg ( 81735 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @02:25AM (#10651149)
    I'm sure in the end, M$ will give them big price breaks ad they'll go with windoz.

    Am I being to suspicious?

  • same level of security? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 28, 2004 @02:27AM (#10651155)
    ... the same level of security and protection as the commercial products
    Commercial products = Windows? No, we don't want Linux to have the same level of security and protection, do we?

    • Re:same level of security? (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      The UK plans to run it nuclear subs on Win 2000 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/06/ams_goes_w indows_for_warships/
      • That's scary. Imagine...turning to port, target the enemy and BSOD!!! Your weapon fails to fire but the enemys does not. All hands lost. BSOD takes on a whole new meaning. Better optimize those bootup routines. In battle, the last thing you'll want to do is lose control of your vessel while your systems reboot.
    • I thought Novell Open Enterprise server WAS a commercial product...
    • ...we have to assure our more senior executives that these boxes have the same level of security and protection as the commercial products

      What I don't understand is where this assumption that commercial products are (more?) secure comes from. There are mountains of examples of unsecure commercial products. It's not the source (Ha ha, you know what I mean) that makes it secure, it's the process it goes through for security checking.

      Commercial products are built to be done with the least amount of work

      • A friend of mine sells dental supplies. He made an anti-bacterial soap that was quite comparable to things like the Jergins soap that you buy for $5/pint, and he sold it for about $12/gallon.
        Nobody would buy it.
        When he took the jugs, relabeled them and tripled the price, it sold like hotcakes. He sighed all the way to the bank.

        People make the mistake of presuming that price -> quality all over the place. We may buy the $3.00 loaf of bread at Safeway without even bothering to try the $1.50 loaf at

        • Yes, those are some good points, and I agree with the part about convincing execs about the value of Linux. Sure, it's cheap and most people's first impression probably is that Linux is built by a bunch of teens and basement geeks coding at home in their spare time, largely because there is a lot of truth behind that. (Of course the actual official implementation process is quite structured and formal, it's the implied lack of quality that is not true.)

          What I'm more interested is where this idea that co

  • Largest network in the southern hemisphere? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ZombieEngineer ( 738752 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @02:27AM (#10651157)
    I vaugely recall that Centrelink's network was the largest in the southern hemisphere (by user/node count).

    Could anyone please confirm/refute this?

    ZombieEngineer

    • Re:Largest network in the southern hemisphere? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      its not...the dept of education in victoria is by a huge amount
      • lol you wish have you not heard of the mobile phone network???
      • Huh? You're claiming a *national* govt. dept processing welfare payments, student payments/assistance, healthcare assistance, employment services and many other services, with multiple offices in every large town, let alone city and state has less nodes than the dept of education in just victoria?

        I'd like your to show your sources for such a claim...

        • Department of Education in Victoria runs a network (WAN) to every single primary and secondary school in the state, among other things it provides internet access to all these schools via a central service.

          While I can't confirm that it is larger than Centrelink, I can confirm that it is a massive enterprise. I interviewed a few years back to support a number of schools when they were first connecting it up. Fortunately for me, I found work at a University instead. DeptEdu is known as being disorganised and

  • Centrelink is a huge mess (Score:5, Informative)

    by Pseudonym ( 62607 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @02:27AM (#10651159)

    Centrelink is actually the union of about half a dozen systems inherited from previous government agencies. Some of the systems run on mainframes, some on Novell, who knows what else. All of these systems don't really talk to each other well, and integration problems have been a nightmare for quite some time.

    It'll be interesting to see precisely what they're planning to migrate to Linux.

  • Hope its for real (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gibbo2 ( 58897 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @02:28AM (#10651160) Homepage
    As an aussie, I'd love to see this happen, but lets hope its serious and not another "pretend" move to Linux to negotiate better prices with their existing vendors.

    Normally "existing vendors" is Microsoft, but from the article it seems they're currently using a good non-MS mix of Novell, Lotus, SAP and Oracle on Solaris.

  • I know what senior executives want (Score:5, Funny)

    by koi88 ( 640490 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @02:33AM (#10651187)
    From the article:
    he will have to reassure the organisation's senior executives.

    Tell them: "If we migrate your desktop to Linux, don't worry, we will also include a game of Solitaire."

  • No need for Windows (Score:5, Informative)

    by _Hellfire_ ( 170113 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @02:34AM (#10651190)
    Everything Centrelink does is web based anyway. All they need are some mid end desktops running and firefox and they'd be set.

    When I dealt with them I was sitting there thinking: Hmmm Internet Explorer under Windows 2000. Fairly expensive and a waste of a software license if you ask me. I also remember thinking that this department would be the ideal place for a large linux rollout simply because they have no need for standard (read: Microsoft centric) apps like word and excel because everything they do is Web server/client based with all the heavy stuff on the backend servers.

    • Re:No need for Windows (Score:2, Informative)

      by CRC'99 ( 96526 )
      Well, not all.... A lot of the stuff they use is a telnet session to a server.

      The server then does all the processing, and prints to remote queues which pop out at the right office (usually).

      Quite nifty really - they could probably just use thin clients and get away with it...

    • Re:No need for Windows (Score:2, Informative)

      by Wizarth ( 785742 )
      All they do is server based, but it's not all web-based. When they have that web-browser up (yup, IE) to fill in details (which is only for some type of claims) you have to notice that they have another window open behind it, that is more traditional ANSI console.
      If you watch real close (or know some-one who works in Centerlink), you'll see that the information they are entering on the nice pretty web form is being re-entered in that screen when they hit Next. So even their web-based front end is nothing mo

  • Pipe dream? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by cuteseal ( 794590 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @02:37AM (#10651202) Homepage
    One of the reasons large corporations and enterprises are reluctant to go down the open source route is defintely vendor support... most are willing to fork out the cash to have the peace of mind that they can sue your ass if something goes wrong.

    • I think M$ has proven... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by arfonrg ( 81735 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @02:48AM (#10651242)
      I think M$ has proven that software companies are pretty much invunerable to any lawsuits due to defective products.

      I mean, they have consistanly released defective products AND figured out how to force you to upgrade to the next defective product without fixing the first.

      They are better than drug dealers!
      • Windows may be the OS, but that doesn't make MS the vendor being sued (or paying out due to contract). It's not uncommon to purchase reliability guarantees in addition to the usual maintenance contracts from your hardware/application vendor, and the OS is included as part of the package.
    • There also seems to be a misunderstanding about the support of open source software. We're in the middle of my college's re-accreditation process. We're being visited by administrators from other schools who are checking up on us. In a meeting with some of these "watchers" I suggested that we might move from WebCT, a commercial product, to Moodle, an open source product and save quite a bit of money. The suit literally leaned back in his chair, smirked, and waved his hand dismissively. "But who will fi

    • Re:Pipe dream? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by ajs318 ( 655362 )
      Yes, but if you read the MS EULA, it has a few things to say about Microsoft software:
      • If it doesn't do what you were expecting, TOUGH TITTY.
      • If it crashes, TOUGH TITTY.
      • If it crashes and takes a day's work with it, TOUGH TITTY.
      • If it has a gaping security hole, and some 5(r!p7 |<!|)|)!3 manages to wipe several terabytes of your entire customer database with a single malformed web query, TOUGH TITTY.
      • If you use it to design a building, and the building falls down, TOUGH TITTY.
      • If you use it to control a

  • met bureau (Score:4, Informative)

    by BlackMagi ( 605036 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @02:37AM (#10651204) Homepage
    Linux is a pretty common platform here at the Bureau of Met., but I guess that's always going to be the case in a scientific organisation. It's certainly not thought of as strange, though.

    • Re:met bureau (Score:2, Informative)

      by erick99 ( 743982 )
      The NWS here uses UNIX for their large computer systems. Some of the mid-range systems such as for severe weather are running Linux. Most desktops are Microsoft based.

  • Novell not commercial? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by froh ( 553491 )
    "...the same level of security and protection as the commercial products"

    Novell is just as commercial as other vendors, when will they learn that GPL software is "Free as in freedom"? And many of the packages in Open Enterprise Server isn't more free than Netware used to be.

  • Noooooo! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 28, 2004 @02:44AM (#10651226)
    Damnit, if Centrelink gets their computer systems actually working, not only will the sheer shock trigger heart attacks in elderly pensioners around the country, but they might realise that I haven't been to a scheduled interview in 3 years and cut off my dole!

    Hell, they might start noticing that I put crewmembers of Babylon 5 in the "employers I've contacted about a job" section of the fortnightly form!

    Go back to Microsoft, Centrelink, for the good of dole-bludging geeks everywhere. Do it for us.

    (Incidentally, I've, uh, hacked into this account, don't go tracking Elaurian down now...)

  • commercial security (Score:4, Funny)

    by Rares Marian ( 83629 ) <hshdsgdsgfdsgfdr ... g ['dki' in gap]> on Thursday October 28, 2004 @02:44AM (#10651228) Homepage
    does this mean the australian government is going to try to run w32.whatever worm on Linux to see if it spreads? and if it doesn't is that considered a failure to meet the commercial standard?

    they are switching but why if the commercial security ware is the standard to go by?

    i'm confused

  • Anyone Remember? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by JohnnyKlunk ( 568221 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @02:44AM (#10651230)
    Remember when Telstra (Australias largest telecoms provider) went to Linux [linuxtoday.com]. Then it turned out they were doing it just to get a discount from MS [zdnet.com.au]?
    Hilarious. Wonder if this is the same. I can't imagine an australian government agency would use any software that doesn't contribute to the American Corporate machine. I'm sure that's illegal under John Howard.
    • As an earlier poster said, a lot of users at CentreLink *only* use a Web browser as their sole interface to the systems they work with. There's no conceivable reason why they couldn't do this with e.g. Firefox/Linux instead of IE/Win2k; there might be a bit of re-engineering required to get user authentication and such stuff covered, but that would be a relatively minor exercise given that they're already a large Novell shop and (from memory) use Novell's NDS for authentication now.

      I can't see any conceiv

  • Australian Government seeks Microsoft discount. (Score:3, Funny)

    by baadfood ( 690464 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @02:48AM (#10651240)
    Is surely what the article is meant to be titled?
  • Now that little Johnny has control of the senate I'd expect centrelink's funding is likely to take a little bit of a dive. After all, democracy isn't for poor people.

  • Glad they see the obvious (Score:4, Insightful)

    by xiando ( 770382 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @03:03AM (#10651299) Homepage Journal
    But keep in mind that the gain from switching to Linux comes first after a few year. Initially, teaching everyone involved Linux will be a cost equal to the cost of commercial software licenses. These costs will soon go away, and the Linux software will keep on working for years - free.

  • Sounds like... (Score:1, Funny)

    by kubrick ( 27291 )
    we have to assure our more senior executives that these boxes have the same level of security and protection as the commercial products ... a race to the bottom is in the offing. Centrelink won't install Linux until it's just as susceptible to viruses, works and hackers as Windows is. :)
    • Front end what they are consolidating - what they use in the offices is dumb clinets (as others have said)and disk space to save training reports, emails about which pub to go to Friday night and Footy Tipping competitions

      All the important stuff - peoples records are on the mainframes (IBM - MVS). One guy I knew was half afraid DSS (Centrelinks parent) would find where he worked (ina nother gov dept) and drag him back because he helped write the assembler code used in some of the payment processing - this
  • [...]these boxes have the same level of security and protection as the commercial products[...]

    If it had just the same level (and most probably "commercial" means MS here), it wouldn't be worth the fuss to convert the win' aussie gov. people over to the OSS side.

    Gee, a friend of mine just told me a few days back about a project where Oracle DB is used as backend on a win machine with a sw firewall (I won't name it, I won't blame it). That necause they are hell afraid of being trojan'd hijacked you name
    • Yeah, but here's the difference:

      1) The Linux people say Linux is better because, in general, Linux admins are savvy enough to correctly configure iptables and the such. The thing is that Linux cannot POSSIBLY catch on in more server rooms until there are either a lot more of them (meaning they are less expensive to keep as employees) or Linux becomes easy to administer. "Properly configured iptables" don't just magically appear in your lap when you will them there, somebody has to have the knowledge and

  • Translation (Score:3, Insightful)

    by pipingguy ( 566974 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @03:25AM (#10651378)

    ...we have to assure our more senior executives that these boxes have the same level of security and protection as the commercial products.

    "They want to be still able to run funny executable downloads from their golf buddies and surf porn sites without being caught in potentially embarassing situations. We're working on easily enabling these things in Linux by enabling an 'I-didn't-do-it,-it-was-a-virus' button".
  • Centrelink will only use the least effective and highest cost system, otherwise Australians might actually get paid the welfare the government promises.

    And that would mean more ditzy daqiuri doddering dole deadbeats.

    So, my fellow Slashdotters, expect a system employing Windows Advanced Server 2003, with .NET extensions and implemented by John Howard's kid's spam company.
  • but we have to assure our more senior executives that these boxes have the same level of security and protection as the commercial products

    If Linux had the same level of security and protection as the commercial products, I wouldn't want to be using it.

  • My God... RTFA, people (Score:5, Informative)

    by 26199 ( 577806 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @03:40AM (#10651433) Homepage

    All these 'WTF? Linux as secure as Windows? Hahahaha' comments are completely offtopic. If you actually read the article you'll find that the current systems are Novell, Solaris and Lotus based. Linux is the easy option for migration, and Microsoft is barely even in the running.

  • Antepodean IT challenge (Score:4, Funny)

    by lxs ( 131946 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @03:43AM (#10651446)
    Centrelink's national manager was further quoted:

    The biggest challenge in moving to linux is burning ISOs on CDRs that spin the other way, or as we in OZ like to say, the right way. We have hired a local firm to write a clever utility based on ancient boomerang technology to fix that problem.

    Those clever antepodeans! is there no stopping Linux in the southern hemisphere? We'll leave you with one more quote:

    Due to our nearness to Antarctica, we have an unlimited supply of penguins. I'm very excited.

  • Centrelink is dedicated to linux (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    When i worked at Centrelink they were about to replace ibms z390 os with ibms linux solution.

    They were also talking about replacing heaps of other legacy systems with linux solutions. I saw a few linux kernel developer/tester jobs pop up as well.

    To all you fools bitching about Centrelinks service, six million Australians get bludge money 2-5% have problems, but please keep complaining about the FREE money that is given to you, there is a TONNE of private corporations bidding on the tenders that Centrelin

  • Get a Job!! (Score:2, Funny)

    by it_prole ( 683713 )
    Maybe I can get some work there instead of being one on their "clients"
  • I hate to break this to you, but all they seem to be talking about is running a load of proprietary rubbish that they've already got on Linux rather than Solaris, Windows etc.. I don't see "consolidating on (proprietary) Novell stuff" on Linux (as opposed to "using more open standards and open software") to be a great step forwards really.

  • Not as good as it may sound (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Magickcat ( 768797 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @04:31AM (#10651579)
    The Australian Tax Office (ATO) has also been thinking about Linux for while.

    The CSA (Child Support Agency), a branch of the ATO has a terrible database, and theirs links into Centrelink's DB. At present Centrelink's systems are very poor indeed.

    I'm sorry to sound cynical, but the Australian government often takes the cheapest option, and doesn't put in much in to system design or BPR. It's entirely likely that whether they use Linux or not, their systems will be underfunded, and most likely will have little to no design. Linux might get yet another boost from it's adoption in terms of PR, but I wouldn't want to make a bet on enjoying the end product.
  • If they are considering moving towards Linux we should push them to take a principled stance towards IP law. Not that I expect Howard government to take a principled stance on anything, but still, they've provided an opportunity to bring their attention to the issues that it creates for Linux and competition.
  • "...we have to assure our more senior executives that these boxes have the same level of security and protection as the commercial products"

    LOL, I can imagine the conversation...

    "Yes, it really is possible for these boxes to get h4x0r3d, just like Windows!"

  • I'm sick of having my payments cancelled every 3 weeks and having to call them up and explain why I am exempt from seeking employment. When I'm on the phone they say things like "Oh, the server seems really slow this time of day", as though they are just using IE to browse a web interface.
  • >Linux has those capabilities but we have to assure
    >our more senior executives that these boxes have
    >the same level of security and protection as the
    >commercial products""

    This deal is dead. it would be impossible for linux to have the same (ghastly terrible) level of security and (lack of) protection as the commercial products (ie. Windows) provide.

    No way it could be done.. Linux is just not engineered for easy application entry to kernel level worm attacks, and hack and virus suceptibility li
    • How does "commercial" = "Microsoft?"

      Did IBM cease to exist? Is the eSeries in our server room running OS/400 a figment of my imagination? Oh, and those Novell fileservers... I must have made that up, it's impossible that there's any competitor to Microsoft! Our email system is Lotus, another IBM product, go figure.
  • Centrelink online services are available Monday to Friday 6:15 a.m. - 10:00 p.m. Saturday 8:00 a.m. - 6:00 p.m. This has go to be the only online service that i have ever used that has "opening hours" it's not quite as bas as trying to get into the actual offices.... but the number of times i've remember to try and submit income when i'm drunk around 2 in the morning has started to get on my nerves.
    • Understand what you mean. Where I use to go to school they had hours of operation for their library system. Originally a vt3270 system, then web based. But still, why close at midnight, when some of us students stay up passed that time to study and need to look up things. If it runs 24/7 then why not be able to use it.
  • Are we going to hear about every government and it's agencies to switch to Linux? Sure, it's great and all, but do we need a front page story for every one of them?

  • City of Toronto Government and Linux (Score:3, Interesting)

    by g8oz ( 144003 ) on Thursday October 28, 2004 @10:17AM (#10653807)
    My friend works in Childrens Services for the city of Toronto, and they have been running thin clients on Linux for some time now. It may be the case in more depts too, I don't know.

    I can't get many details out of her because she is not very technical. But from what I can make out, the desktop is GNOME, and they were until recently given access to Microsoft Office using rdesktop. But thats changed and now all they have is OpenOffice.

    Its interesting to note that the staff are very unhappy with the situation. They say that OpenOffice is slow, and doesn't have thing like Avery labels templates. They also were given no training.

    My point is when doing a migration like this, show some TLC to users.

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