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Communications The Almighty Buck IT

Survey: SOA Prominent On 2005 budgets 138

Posted by Hemos from the bigger-deal-then-it-sounds dept.
Michael S. Mimoso writes "A Yankee Group survey of 473 enterprise decision makers reveals that companies have put aside money for service-oriented architectures for 2005." This is a bigger deal than it sounds - if companies keep moving this away, it will mean a sea change in corporate technology usage - and change the way/why development is done. We're talking everything from SOAP stuff (ITMJ is part of OSTG) to wholesale ASP adoption like Salesforce.com.
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Survey: SOA Prominent On 2005 budgets More

Survey: SOA Prominent On 2005 budgets

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  • I don't get it (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:12PM (#10397736)
    A Yankee Group survey of 473 enterprise decision makers reveals that companies have put aside money for service-oriented architectures for 2005." This is a bigger deal then it sounds.

    Why does it have to be a bigger deal before it sounds? Why does a service contract have to make any sound? Can't that step be taken out entirely? It seems to me that companies can save money that way.

  • um (Score:3, Funny)

    by hyperstation ( 185147 ) on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:12PM (#10397746)
    i didn't get the memo on this new SOA buzzword of the week...SOA still means "start of authority" to me

    • Re:um (Score:5, Funny)

      by Scarblac ( 122480 ) <slashdot@gerlich.nl> on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:18PM (#10397793) Homepage

      SOA still means "start of authority" to me

      That's nothing, in Dutch it's the acronym for sexually transmitted disease... I had never heard of this buzzword meaning either.

    • Re:um (Score:3, Funny)

      by Teun ( 17872 )
      um2
      As a Dutchman I saw SOA, Sexueel Overdraagbare Aandoening- or in English;
      Sexually Transmittable Disease...

      Thank god we don't (yet) need a preservative on /.!

      • Too funny!!! But it's not a "preservative" Teun, in English it's called a "condom".
      • In english a preservative is a chemical you add to food to keep it from spoiling.

        Perhaps you mean either condom or prophylactic.
    • Or the Sarbanes-Oxley Act for financial reporting which has major public company requirements starting this winter and next spring.

    • Re:um (Score:1, Redundant)

      by Mateito ( 746185 )
      SOL is "Shit out of Luck"
      TOA is "Talking out of his/her Ass"
      so maybe SOA is "Shitting out of his/her Ass".

      Article is a good candidate for buzzword bingo. "News for Nerds" guys.

      Disclaimer: I'm doing an MBA, and so I can give an educated opinion that the article is BULLSHIT.

      • Re:um (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Mateito ( 746185 ) on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:42PM (#10398026) Homepage
        Fersht predicted that during the next 12 months more companies will try to bring SOAs across an entire enterprise and then explore integration with the entire value chain. Vendor evangelism will help accelerate that process,

        May I be the first to say "WTF".

        SOA may be something useful. Unfortunately (?), this article does nothing to explain what it is, only that you need it, your business needs it, and if you don't you are going to be left behind all those other companies that allready have it.

        I gotta invent me something like this, make it cool, and make a mint flogging it.

        However, posting it to slashdot WILL NOT be my preferred manner of drumming up business.

        • this article does nothing to explain what it is, only that you need it, your business needs it, and if you don't you are going to be left behind all those other companies that allready have it.

          That's the whole point! Scare the PHB into thinking they need it, so they hire a consulting firm to deliver it.

          If they understood it, they might just walk down to the Tech department and ask if they need it. Chances are the tech department might just reply "we already have it" or "we don't need it right now".

          • ObPython:

            Arthur: Go and tell your master that we have been charged by God with a sacred quest. If he will give us food and shelter for the night, he can join us in our quest for the Holy Grail.

            S: Well, I'll ask 'im, but I don't think 'e'll be very keen-- 'e's already got one, you see?

            A: What?

            Lancelot: He says they've already *got* one!

            A: (confused) Are you *sure* he's got one?

            S: Oh yes, it's ver' naahs.
        • I gotta invent me something like this, make it cool, and make a mint flogging it.

          You've left out a step or two and that's not the right format.

          1. invent me something like this
          2. make it cool
          3. Get the goverment to require it's use
          4. ...
          5. Profit

        • Re:um (Score:5, Insightful)

          by starm_ ( 573321 ) on Thursday September 30, 2004 @05:29PM (#10399583)
          Its a new way of doing something that has been done well since forever but now in XML. So that means it is better and will change the world.
        • Not to toot this article's horn or anything.. I built an application which eventually was sold as an SOA platform, so maybe I can shed some light on the convoluded subject.
          SOA=Service Oriented Architecture
          There are probably a million or so articles just like this one, evangalizing SOA. I regretfully admit that I probably had a hand in writing some of them, if indirectly and unwillingly.
          Briefly, SOA describes an architecture for building flexible, loosely coupled, integrated applications using Web Service
          • Service oriented architecture (SOA) is not synonymous with Web Services. Web Services are just one, not particularly elegant, way of implementing an SOA. The core features of an SOA are:

            Dynamic service registration

            Dynamic service discovery

            Support for one or more standard protocols for service invocation

            Note the absence of the acronyms "SOAP" and "XML" on that list.

            Patrick

      • Re:um (Score:2, Funny)

        by wiggles ( 30088 )
        Where I come from, it's "Shit On Again". As in "Did you hear about the latest round of layoffs? Sounds like we're SOA."
        • Shit On Again". As in "Did you hear about the latest round of layoffs? Sounds like we're SOA."

          Good call. In British English, the past tense "Shat" has gained popularity, and maybe should be considered as a substitute on the other side of the pond.

    • Re:um (Score:1, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Its Service-Oriented Architecture [soaprpc.com]

    • Re:um (Score:2, Informative)

      by taylortbb ( 759869 )
      A quick Google search [google.ca] will give you a reasonable answer.

      SOA is Service-Oriented Architecture. Makes sense doesn't it?
    • It's a fancy way of saying: I don't buy software licenses anymore.
    • To me it means DC hardcore---"State of Alert"---somewhere in the basement is my Teen Idles/SOA 12"...good times...

    • Re:um (Score:2)

      by chiph ( 523845 )
      "SOA" is marketing-speak for whatever it is they're selling this week.

      Last week, it meant web-services.

      Chip H.

  • My head hurts. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by DAldredge ( 2353 ) <SlashdotEmail@GMail.Com> on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:13PM (#10397751) Journal
    Is it me, or does that article spend a page and lots of big words to basicly say nothing?

    • Re:My head hurts. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by aminorex ( 141494 ) on Thursday September 30, 2004 @06:21PM (#10399948) Homepage Journal
      You are right. No clothes on the emperor. Move along.

    • Re:My head hurts. (Score:2, Insightful)

      by mdmarkus ( 522132 )
      Alas, every article i read on SOA uses big words and says basicly nothing. It seems to be another retelling of the client server model we've been working with for the last 15 years (not that there's anything wrong with that). Still it's being pushed as the silver bullet that will save us all when it might not be all that.

      markus
    • It seems to say that companies are moving away from the "big monolith" system and investing in more modular, loosely-coupled systems. This tends to make custom software development and niche-vendor acquisition more palatable, which may cause problems for Big Death Star vendors like SAP.

      The target audience for the article is obviously IT management, and is spoken in their language. This doesn't mean it is content free, it means they focus on different things than technical people usuallly do.

      I actually

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:13PM (#10397755)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Holy cow (Score:5, Funny)

    by Scott Ransom ( 6419 ) <sransom.nrao@edu> on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:14PM (#10397768)
    That is one of the most jargon and/or marketing-speak filled story descriptions that I have ever read on /. I have absolutely no desire to waste my time looking up those acronyms in order to see if I _might_ want to RTFA.

    Thanks for the great submission.

    • Re:Holy cow (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      STFU HNG LOL.

      RTFA is making me ROFL.

      LOL.

      HNG heh.

    • Re:Holy cow (Score:5, Interesting)

      by jedaustin ( 52181 ) on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:55PM (#10398150) Homepage
      If you haven't tried bullfighter (from the guys at deloitte) and are use word/powerpoint at the office, you'll love it.

      According the the bullfighter Index, the article gets:
      Bull Composite Index of 5.9 (not horrible)
      Bull index of 94 (good)
      Average sentence length (good)
      Syllables/word (ok).

      And the part I love.. the Flesh score.. 36:
      Diagnosis: Teetering on the edge of unclear. The overall meaning remains discernible, but it becomes possible to lose oneself in corollary thoughts, which may be worth exploration, but which can also detract from the core point of the written article.

      Anyway.. off topic but fun.

      JD
      • If you haven't tried bullfighter (from the guys at deloitte) and are use word/powerpoint at the office, you'll love it.


        Almost as bad as "all your base are belong to us";
        Superfluous "and" found in statement Line 1.

        JD
        • I know you're self-critiquing, JD, so here's a little extra:

          1. You might want to debug your syntax checker; it's actually the "are" that's superfluous, I think.

          2. The question remains as to whether or not one would still love Bullfighter after they've tried it. :-)

          Interesting tool, though. Thanks for making me aware of it. It is also interesting that a firm like Deloitte would put such funny stuff on their web site. (I'm referring to the Bullfighter FAQs on the download page.)

          It is further interesting t
          • Actually it was a COBOL joke.
            I was speaking of the 'and'.
            Back in the day the 'Superfluous to found in add statement' was a common error I'd get when writing COBOL code.

    • ASPs (Score:3, Interesting)

      by 0x0d0a ( 568518 )
      The problem is that it isn't the jargon of techies. It's the jargon of people-trying-to-market-new-buzzwords.

      The article is pimping ASPs. For those of you who have managed to avoid this particular bit of buzzwordspeke, it refers to "application service providers" (not the more common usage). Basically, the idea is that some vendor runs the backend of your applications on a remote server and admins them there, and you get the front end. It has the obvious appeal to vendors -- it lets you use a neat loop

      • Re:ASPs (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Smallpond ( 221300 ) on Thursday September 30, 2004 @03:47PM (#10398703) Homepage Journal
        As opposed to the current model for enterprise software:

        The vendor sells you the app and comes in and sets it up incorrectly. The guy who got the training and all of the manuals gets a better job and leaves. You didn't buy a service agreement, so you don't have the updates that you need. You have to set the clock back to 1998, because its not Y2K. And it only runs on Windows NT, Service pack 2, with constant attention required to keep the log files from overflowing.
      • not really, the SOA project I was involved in was at a gov't agency and was mostly semi-internal (all within the same gov't agency). I suspect, as usual, people take articles/trends about software development and think "commercial software", when the vast majority of software that is written is only for internal use.

    • Re:Holy cow (Score:2, Interesting)

      by kleinux ( 320571 )
      As someone who is on a team developing a large scale Service Oriented App I can tell you all I hear around here is buzz words. This technology is ripe with it! On the plus side it has been a _lot_ of fun. But then again, I get to develop it and don't have to admin it. I can tell you these things are hell for the admins since they generate so much network traffic.

  • SOA? (Score:3, Funny)

    by StrandedOrg ( 664681 ) <matthew.stranded@org> on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:17PM (#10397783) Homepage
    Sarbanes-Oxley Act? Shortness of Air? Sin Otro Apellido? Shadow of Amn?

  • but isn't Salesforce.com a JSP shop, not ASP.

  • Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:19PM (#10397797)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Just last night my buddy down the street said the CEO of their company just showed up in the office and said he had been researching things for awhile and was sold on the SOA architechure, and they're moving all their old VB/COM+ code to C#/.NET

    • Executives understand services. A service is something they can put an SLA on. This way they can predict their IT business behaviour - and if anything breaks an SLA, they can be entitled to compensation per given SLA.

      The service perspective allows them to more easily abstract between software providers. I don't want to buy "..bla bla a lean mean Cyrus 2.2.8 IMAP server running Debian Woody on a dual Xeon bla bla.." - I want to buy "An email service with 99% uptime, 99.9% during business hours at a cost of
      • For our 300 people to get email 365 days per year, that'd be $110K per year. That's something like an entire year's (actually, more than an entire year's lately) server budget around here.

        Even if I bought two nice servers and clustered 'em for 99.99 uptime, I could likely get 2-3 years out of them easily. Even with software and maintenance, that's a ton of money. It might be comperable if you were talking zero IT staff, but at a 300 person company that's largely a fantasy as well.

  • Let me be the first to ask (Score:5, Funny)

    by katsiris ( 779774 ) on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:20PM (#10397807)
    Soa what?
    • Seriously, I see a lot of replies that make fun of the marketroid-speak that infests the article, but here's a simple translation into human-readable text: "ERP vendors like SAP/Peoplesoft/Oracle are going to lose their bread and butter to Service-Oriented-Architecture (SOA)... unless they also conform to SOA architectures." Of course, there's no attempt to explain why, but I think it's pretty clear: because the industry has *failed* to really answer the integration problem. Customers buy into a suite of
      • Solution: Web services, SOA and SOAP/XML/UDDI as standard intercommunication methods.

        These intercommunication methods have been evolving so rapidly as to cause more integration problems than they solve. The XML people can't even agree on a way of expressing the schemas last time I checked. As far as I can tell, the most stable interface for communication is HTTP PUT with simple name/value pairs, which is sufficient for many purposes.

    • (resubmit w/ formatting... doh!) Seriously, I see a lot of replies that make fun of the marketroid-speak that infests the article, but here's a simple translation into human-readable text: "ERP vendors like SAP/Peoplesoft/Oracle are going to lose their bread and butter to Service-Oriented-Architecture (SOA)... unless they also conform to SOA architectures." Of course, there's no attempt to explain why, but I think it's pretty clear: because the industry has *failed* to really answer the integration probl

  • The way it went down... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    pollster: Certainly, you've set aside part of your budget for SOA deveopment. How much?

    CTO, not wanting to sound stupid: Of course we are excited by the synergies present in the technology, and will continue to lead the market in SOA technologies...
  • And the corporate web site is up to date!
  • Both vendors and customers.

    I think this will open the playing field to more companies since we'll be moving away from rigid systems like SAP to piece by piece built components. Also on wep services such as SOAP the open source & low cost components such as linux php and pear etc. make entry into this market quite affordable for startups.

    • On the contrary, this suits the big vendors. Who has been pushing webservices so hard? Its Microsoft, IBM, SUN, HP, why do think that is? They want to own your entire process. They are large enough to be able to provide the infrastructure to run this type of architecture, Java and .NET already web service friendly and tooling is available for these platforms. This is what they want you to run and then their consulting divisions will be happy to design and code for you. Smaller players will be squeezed out
      • But I think while what you say is evidently true on part that the big companies are pushing their solutions to us, they are at the same time conforming to a common standard. This in turn leads to opening for others to exploit this opening. And lets face it this is pretty low tech stuff. Stripping and parsing ascii files. You don't need IBM research department developing software for it even if IBM thinks you do.

  • In Holland... (Score:1, Offtopic)

    by Yaa 101 ( 664725 )
    SOA means venerial decease...

  • Yankee Group (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Rupert ( 28001 ) on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:31PM (#10397908) Homepage Journal
    I will listen to what they have to say when they stop employing SCO shill Laura Didio.

  • Inconceivable! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Yo Grark ( 465041 ) on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:36PM (#10397960)
    Inigo: [looking confused] You keep using acronyms I do not think they mean what you think they mean...[looking back down] my god...his whole article is like that.

    Vizzini: Whoever he is, he's obviously seen us with the slashdot factor and therefore thinks his webserver must die. You [to Fezzik] read the article. We'll [to Inigo] head straight for the first posts. Catch up when it's meta-moderated. If his webserver fails, fine; if not, the use the wiki.

    Inigo: I'm going to do him in with bug-me-not.

    Vizzini: You know what a hurry we're in!

    Inigo: Well, it is the only way I my anominity can be satisfied. If I use my right name, the spam will come too quickly.

    Vizzini: Oh have it your way.

    Fezzik: [to Inigo] You be careful. People in marketing cannot be trusted.

    Yo Grark

  • Erm... (Score:5, Funny)

    by The-Bus ( 138060 ) on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:39PM (#10397994)
    "A Yankee Group survey of 473 enterprise decision makers reveals that companies have put aside money for service-oriented architectures for 2005." This is a bigger deal then it sounds - if companies keep moving this away, it will mean a sea change in corporate technology usage - and change the way/why development is done. We're talking everything from SOAP stuff (ITMJ is part of OSTG) to whole sale ASP adoption like Salesforce.com."

    473 enterprise decision makers? How many best-of-breed synergized Libraries of Congress is that?
  • That's where my training budget went. Oh well. Guess I'll just keep reading /. and ignore the blinkenlights...

  • SOA, ERP, SAP, CRM, IBM, COO and CFO (Score:5, Funny)

    by Mignon ( 34109 ) <satan@programmer.net> on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:41PM (#10398012)
    I have a feeling this is what the legendary TPS report looks like. But they left off the cover sheet.

  • Yankee Group & SOA (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:43PM (#10398035)
    Maybe if they did a little more of the Yankee thing and a little less of the Group thing, they wouldn't catch any SOAs.

  • Hmm (Score:5, Funny)

    by sulli ( 195030 ) * on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:44PM (#10398042) Journal
    Widespread adoption of SOAP by developers would make a difference.

    Particularly for the guys riding with them on the bus.

  • Don't believe the hype (Score:3, Insightful)

    by whatthef*ck ( 215929 ) on Thursday September 30, 2004 @02:48PM (#10398075) Homepage
    SOA is the latest hype being pitched by vendors who want to sell expensive tools to solve non-existent problems.

    It will find its niche, like web services did, but it's not going to be the next big thing.
    • SOA is web services, except your entire system is a collection of webservices calling each other, and you expose the services you want others to use. This is pretty slow right now, but in-process webservice calls (oxymoron?) will most-likely be the norm in about two years, especially in .net

      SOA is what microsoft will be pushing for the new few years, so this term isn't likely to go away regardless of what we think.

  • the generic concept of loosely coupled services within the enterprise is not entirely new but is badly needed. At JPMorgan/BankOne where I was an architect having to sort out how we were going to get all these vendor packages, legacy systems, and new projects to play nice together it is a very hot topic.

    The idea is to allow us to abstract away vendors and certain ugliness so that replacing them can be scheduled seperately.

    the concept of loose coupling, abstraction layers, and generic services is just goo

  • Great, you killed it (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Thanks to Slashdot, salesforce.com is now dead in the water. It's almost ironic that I read slashdot instead of working becuase slashdot killed one of the tools I need to do my job.

  • http://www.service-architecture.com/

  • SOA = Same Old Architecture (Score:4, Insightful)

    by rkischuk ( 463111 ) on Thursday September 30, 2004 @03:40PM (#10398639)
    How many times are they going to repackage the same thing and hope that enterprises start begging to throw money at it this time?

    Heard the hype once when it was SOAP. Heard the hype again when it was Web Services. Hearing it again as SOA. It's still the same thing - exposing parts of your business using XML over HTTP. Some will say SOA is about a philosophy, about loose coupling. What nitwits were writing tightly coupled web services? The problem there ISN'T the technology, it's the development philosophy, and products don't fix bad design.

  • Sigh of relief! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by CheeseTroll ( 696413 )
    Whew! I thought I was back in the 90's when vendors called me everyday pushing e-this and e-that until my head would spin from all the buzzwords flying around. After purchasing software for our company for a few years, I learned to deal with sales people like this simply by saying, "SHOW me how it works and how it's better than what we're doing now." Usually stops them in their tracks.

    It's funny how cathartic it is to read an article like that, come away feeling stupid for not understanding all the mana

  • SOA What? SOA This. (Score:4, Informative)

    by Bob9113 ( 14996 ) on Thursday September 30, 2004 @03:57PM (#10398806) Homepage
    Lots of comments on the buzzwordiness of SOA, and questioning the technical merit. I've been working on a SOA project for a couple months now, and I can tell you - the technical merit is there (as well as the acrid stench of buzz).

    The core idea of SOA is that there are a lot of enterprises out there with lots of legacy databases on their networks. They also have small, decentralized app development teams that just want to put the data in front of the customer, as quickly as possible. Allowing all those teams direct access to all those databases is both expensive and risky (from a security standpoint) and expensive and difficult (from the front end developer's standpoint). SOA is a way to put a single point of entry across multiple databases. The front end people can code hellbent for leather against SOAP, without thinking about security or SQL, while the SOA team writes at a somewhat slower more methodic pace, linking in security (perhaps via LDAP) and handling handling the SQL.

    Basically it's a way of keeping the O/R mapping and database security problem with a single team, while also allowing individual departments and divisions of the corporation to have their own app development teams.

  • Notice to Cease and Desist (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Dear Mr. Mimoso,

    I am writing to you on behalf of the Center for Really Annoying Acronym People (CRAAP). We here at CRAAP maintain a full Acronym Database (AD) of to monitor Total Acronym Usage in Single Paragraphs (TAUSP). Using our Acronym Checking System (ACS), we establish and attempt to stamp out Acronym Overuse and Abuse Situations (AOAS). Our current safetly limits as defined by OSHA and the WHO is set at 2.

    After doing a TAUSP check on your paragraph using our ACS to compare against our AD, we disco

  • I finally figured out "paradigm shift" a long time ago, but, now, we have "sea change." What does this mean? Does it mean that the 473 enterprise decision makers are so overweight that the tide rises when they are at the beach? Do shipping lanes need to be routed around them? Does a belly flop off of the diving board send islanders across the Atlantic fleeing in fear?

  • uhhh (Score:1)

    by Skadet ( 528657 )
    "...everything from SOAP stuff (ITMJ is part of OSTG) to wholesale ASP...

    Uhhh.... WTF?

  • The Postmodern Generator:

    http://www.elsewhere.org/cgi-bin/postmodern/ [elsewhere.org]

    Every time you refresh, it generates a new essay in postmodern-speak.

  • Buisiness buzzwords are quite similar to technical terms.

    I don't expect people to know any technical jargon (I.E. me "The keyboard yea the thing with the buttons probably right in front of the big square thing with glass in the front"), but even I don't have complete distain for the jargon of other disciplines.

    Props to slashdot for trying to enlighten readers that there is more going on with the OS revolution than simply the technical aspects.

    You may not want to learn the buzzwords but then perhaps so

  • A general comment about SOA, MS and the marketplac (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Chicken Little here with an announcement... Some feel that Microsoft has actually lost the war for the Windows API

    Here is the train that no one sees coming - MS isn't stealing an API or a package or a language this time. With Indigo, MS is trying to steal the next major programming paradigm. MS is quietly patenting the successor to OO, every wild and not-so-wild idea that anyone can pull out of their ass is being patented as a means of covering all bets. Somebody who works for MS (one of the people who b
    • Firstly, I think there is merit to your argument. Microsoft is amassing a patent portfolio, and while they haven't used it yet, they most definitely will at some point.

      But first of all, you're a bit alarmist. Services orientation is not the new programming paradigm, and it is not a sucessor to OO. It certainly is the disruptive successor to OO-like distributed computing technologies such as CORBA, RMI, EJB, etc. But it doesn't kill OO "inside" the services.

      Let's also note that OO is not actually ine

  • More SOA, MS Marketplace drivel (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    http://www.ebpml.org/indigo.htm

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/events/pdc/default.aspx ? pull=/msdnmag/issues/04/01/indigo/default.aspx
    I think this push for SOA is going to be the beginning of the end for OO:

    Object-oriented development focuses on applications that are built from interdependent class libraries. Service-oriented development focuses on systems that are built from a set of autonomous services. This difference has a profound impact on the assumptions one makes about the development experience.

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