Microsoft: Because Bugs are Cool 851
h_orion writes "According to Mr. Gates, Microsoft recieves 'Less than one percent' call volume in relation to bugs. He also blames the users lack of knowledge as a cause of some of these bugs. He goes on to say that the feeling of frustration that people hold towards bugs is a sociological issue, rather than technical saying that people complain about software bugs 'Because it's cool.' Read more in this interview." Boy, where do you even begin...
Closed source.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Closed source.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Why do you wish it was more like Bugzilla? The KB is, well, a knowledge base, not a bug tracking system. I also find the MS KB far easier to search and than Bugzilla. Nonetheless searching the MS KB can still be frustrating.
Re:Closed source.... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Closed source.... (Score:5, Informative)
I would also have to say that from my 4 yrs of phone support experience with MS products, not very many of them were because of *bugs*. I was able to pull up cases where the problem was a bug, but that usually happened with fairly large buisness accounts that didn't use frontline support so we never saw any of that. Probably the biggest causes of support calls were these:
a - Outdated drivers
b - Just too much installed to where they had 20+ icons in the system tray
c - how-to issues, people not knowing how to do something, etc.
I think the support there is pretty good, it all matters if you get a good tech or not, but overall its pretty good.
Re:Closed source.... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Closed source.... (Score:5, Funny)
Because it's cool.
Re:Closed source.... (Score:5, Funny)
Why, if you'd only RTFA, you'd know that Microsoft has granted your wish. Any remaining bugs are a matter of faulty perception - yours. Find the interface convoluted? Maybe it's your BRAIN that's convoluted. Why, you're lucky they deign to allow you to purchase and use licences for their software at all.
Just as In Soviet Russia, when the system fails to work it's ALWAYS a matter of the inadequacy and weaknesses of the human users.
Re:Closed source.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Bill said the don't release new products for bug fixes, and they don't. They release patches and service packs for that. He never said they don't fix bugs, and he was never asked.
His percentages are probably right - If I find a bug in some MS software, I might to a search for it on the Microsoft Support Center, or I might just let it go. I wouldn't call Microsoft to report it. Do you call them when you find what you think is a bug?
Saying that it's frequently user error probably comes from the support centers as well. Plenty of vendors and ISPs are happy referring people to MS because it's not something they support, and Microsoft probably will. I'm sure a large percentage of their calls are new users who just aren't familiar with the programs or interface, and call complaining about errors they cause through ignorance. I am not saying those people are stupid, they just haven't learned yet.
Macs used to come with a nice thick manual telling you about files, folders, windows, menus, and more. It also had two tutorials for people who hadn't used computers. Those things have been lost because "everyone uses computers" which makes learning the new systems harder. Windows XP has a "Learn XP" link on the desktop of XP Home on a Dell I purchased recently.
As for complaining about bugs being "cool" I think Bill has taken the word too far. "En vogue" perhaps, but I think it's a product of the problem - there are either a substantial quantity of reproducible bugs, or a quantity of reproducible design/function flaws that make using the programs hard. Maybe both.
Also, the "Executive Summary" is a vicious twisting of Bill's words. The truth in the article is sufficient for me. My summary goes this way:
- Users calling support often don't know what they are doing.
- New releases aren't for bug fixes. (Repeat a few times for full effect.
- Not many people are reporting bugs.
- Bill's interpretation of why people complain about bugs is very unique.
Hopefully you will look past any ill will you harbor toward Microsoft or Bill himself and see the interview is poorly executed, and that is as much to blame for the responses as Bill himself is.
--
Think for yourself. If people spent as much time learning as they do criticizing because someone else did...
Re:Closed source.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Have you seen how expensive those phone calls are..
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Closed source.... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Closed source.... (Score:5, Funny)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 06:03:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Olin Shivers
To: sunday-lunch-list
Subject: Losing $35
Reply-to: shivers@ai.mit.edu
No lunch on Sunday, I am afraid.
Having just concluded a continuous 14-hour conversation with technical support people at Microsoft, my weekend plans have been altered to simply sleep.
The original topic was, "Why am I able to use my floppy drive in DOS, but not in Windows on the (brand new) Pentium box Hillary just bought, with the (brand new) Win95 installation?" Microsoft promised to resolve the issue, or refund my up-front consultation fee. Thirty-five bucks. (You're way ahead of me, I'm sure.) Did I mention this box had plug 'n play hardware and BIOS? Takes care of installation and configuration *automatically*.
Fourteen hours later, however, the issues had become much deeper and more richly textured. Hillary, who Just Doesn't Get It, wanted to break off the phone call and go return the system around hour five. And hour ten. I told her to shut the fuck up and go home. Things had gotten beyond "fixing" the "computer."
I did get to know three technical support staff rather well; I was certainly impressed by their perseverance and courteousness. They were a little frightened by my focus, I think -- senior technical consultant #3 kept checking the logs he'd gotten from junior technical consultants #1 and #2, and asking me if I'd really been having a continuous conversation since 2 pm. He also kept getting concerned that I was running up a painful phone bill. I told him it was OK, not to worry about it. I didn't tell him I'd managed to get in on an 800 number (which entitles me to chalk up the $35 I paid them as a "pyrrhic failure," I guess).
In the end, Win95 had been reinstalled 3 times, from scratch. Individual drivers had been downloaded off the net and installed dozens of times. The system had been rebooted on average once every 3 minutes, I would estimate, for well over half a day. At some point, each of my floppy, cd rom, serial ports, modem, and display had all worked. For one golden moment, they had all worked. But upon the next reboot, it all vanished, a fleeting, evanescent moment of forever-after unattainable satori.
Needless to say, neither the system nor the floppy drive now work. But I certainly learned a very valuable lesson from the experience, and one would have to be mean-spirited and churlish not to consider the $35 fee that currently remains on my credit card anything but a welcome reminder of such hard-earned wisdom. A cash mnemonic, as it were.
My current plans, beyond abandoning my friends for the weekend, center around going to Lechemere, and returning their Pentium system (which was really cheap, by the way -- it's truly remarkable what a bargain I got on the thing) by the simple expedient of hurling the box from the sun-roof of my car through some convenient plate-glass window, en passant.
I might add that when the revolution comes, and the mob at the factory gates drags Bill Gates screaming from behind the wheel of his Porsche 959, I, for one, will not be there to urge clemency.
Good night.
-Olin
Re:Closed source.... (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of it has to do with how long it takes to report bugs. I had to contact one of their tech support lines for a server-product related item. I am totally not making this up:
I completely believe that 1% of calls are bug reports. Who would bother waiting through this kind of shit to report a bug that has almost 0 chance of actually being fixed. Not to mention that intermittent (i.e. non-reproducable errors) will NEVER be reported, because MS will tell you it's your fault.
Re:Closed source.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Closed source.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Sorry to say, but this sounds like anti-M$ FUD.
I am a developer at a company that produces sofware for Windows/Linux/OSX/Solaris. I typically spend part of my day on at least two of these platforms, but my primary desktop is Windows 2000. Some of our 'linux only' developers used to talk trash about BSOD's and daily lockups, so I entered into a wager with one of our linux developers regarding whose computer would have the longest uptime. So, we both rebooted our computer at the same time and the contest began. I was using Windows 98 and he was using Debian. After 6 months, we called the contest a draw when the boss came walking around with more memory for our computers (more important to him since he was used VMWare for his Windows stuff).
The only application that I have seen cause a BSOD was Netscape 4.7 on Windows 95, and the only lockups were back in the days of Windows 2.11 when the networking was done with DOS drivers or TSR's and the hardware would get stuck on blocking read/write calls. Since the OS was single tasking, if the hardware didn't perform an interupt, you were stuck. This was back in the days when Ungerman-Bass networking equipment ruled the world.
Have BSOD's occurred - sure they have. But the rate of BSOD's that I have seen over the years have been on par with the number of kernal core and seg faults that I have seen with Linux (going all the way back to Slackware ruled linux - back when Linux was unix and not full of all the bloat crap that it has today).
You notice how no one ever says "Windows locks up on me daily" or "I have to reboot daily", but people say "I know someone who has to reboot daily". Sort of like the fact that no one sees aligators in NYC sewers, but every NYC resident knows someone who claims to have seen these alligators.
Re:Closed source.... (Score:4, Funny)
"F$*# that...Punt it to Longhorn!"
Chris
Re:Closed source.... (Score:4, Funny)
I LOVE this logic!
it looks more like a satire (Score:5, Insightful)
B.G and Microsoft et. al. maybe the evil coporate Satan incarnate, but you'd never know it from talking to them. My hookey meter is off the scale on this one. ( Sheesh I'm defending Bill Gates, who da thunk)
Re:it looks more like a satire (Score:5, Informative)
They say you grow older and wiser, after all.
"According to Mr. Gates"? (Score:3, Funny)
No, I was not paid for this comment. But I think a lot of Microsoft bashers are upset they haven't received their $500 promised check for load-testing hotmail with forwarded spam to 20 people.
Re:"According to Mr. Gates"? (Score:4, Informative)
WTF is the reason for posting this tired old story (it's not something that recently came to light, I've seen it several times before back in my youth).
Slashdot -- all the news that's fit to recycle.
Re:"According to Mr. Gates"? (Score:5, Funny)
You have to understand... (Score:5, Funny)
"How do I turn on my computer?"
Re:You have to understand... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:You have to understand... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:You have to understand... (Score:5, Funny)
--sex [slashdot.org]
Re:You have to understand... (Score:5, Funny)
Tech Support: Hello this is Microsoft Tech support, how can I help you today?
Caller: My XP has problems with USB devices.
Tech Support: Ok, I'm gonna need proof of registration of that XP install.
Caller: *dialtone*
Just say no to bugs. (Score:3, Funny)
Damn, does this mean that we will get a new kind of truth adds telling us that reporting bugs is bad? The smoking ones are bad enough.
umm ok... (Score:4, Funny)
hmmm... I never quite got the "coolness" factor of praying to the porciline god...
Re:umm ok... (Score:3, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Im shocked (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Im shocked (Score:5, Informative)
If I were paranoid, this sounds like a MS troll to elicit uneducated, kneejerk reactions to ancient history.
Beware, some of the comments will appear in MS press releases in order to show the "infantile" level of OS supporters.
geo
Re:Im shocked (are you joking) (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Im shocked (Score:3, Informative)
It is real. I myself read the article in the printed issue of the magazine.
Re:Im shocked (Score:5, Informative)
Update! (Score:4, Funny)
heh.
Uhhh, date? (Score:5, Insightful)
-Sean
Agreed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Agreed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Agreed (Score:3, Informative)
Most online versions of the article claim that it was in the German weekly magazine FOCUS (nr.43, October 23, 1995, pages 206-212), and a search [focus.msn.de] in the focus archives reveals that FOCUS had an interview with Gates in that issue (third result). However, to see if the text is the same, you'll have to pay them (and understand German).
Re:Uhhh, date? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's real, though I bet Bill Gates would like to eat a lot of his words now. *chuckle* Sort of like the embarassing quotes about 640k.
Face it, Bill isn't much of a visionary, just an extremely ruthless, win at all costs business man who can take expert advantage of the moment.
Re:Uhhh, date? (Score:4, Interesting)
Oh, I know it's real because I think I still have a copy of the magazine in which it first appeared. It was either 'Time' or 'Wired'. It was a highly amusing read, and had questions that only a non-American popular media journalist would've asked at the time. I believe the interviewer was German.
Re:Uhhh, date? (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/gatesivu.htm [usnews.com]
http://www.urbanlegends.com/celebrities/bill.gate
MS Bill denial *Yawn* (Score:4, Informative)
I remember when he said that. I think it was at some conference. He may not remember it, that doesn't effect reality unless you have lousy fact checkers. Not that it really matters, we've all said silly things in the past, and relative to 64K, 640K wasn't so bad. Plus there were little utilities that gave you an extra 100-150K, as long as you didn't have a Hercules card or a bulky (IBM) BIOS. This was useful if you used one of those pre-emptive multitasking programs, you could run your BBS in 200K, a DOS shell in 16K, and leave the rest for applications and TSRs.
Re:Uhhh, date? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Ancient history (Score:3, Informative)
I'm pretty forgiving... (Score:3, Interesting)
Hey what's that sound? (Score:5, Informative)
No, those links at the bottom don't lead to the original transcript, only some German "analysis" of the original transcript.
Because of this blatant lack of evidence, everything else is suspect.
Re:Hey what's that sound? (Score:4, Informative)
It isn't a hoax. I think I still have the magazine in which this interview first appeared. I distinctly remember it. I was both highly amused and outraged at the same time. It was an odd combination.
Really? (Score:3, Informative)
I want my copy of Windows 98 to go more than 3 days without a reset. Does that mean I'm in the minority? Or is OS stability just a 'feature'?
Re:Really? (Score:4, Funny)
Just like the blue screen of death is really the blue screen of rest. Bill Gates thought it would be usefull to force people to take breaks after doing lots of work. Haven't you noticed that your computer is much more likely to freeze when you just finished typing 30 pages of text (without backup of course) than after you just finished your first page.
MS Product Features (Score:3, Interesting)
I think that's why "less than one percent" of their call volume is in relation to bugs. It's because MS insists that they're features. Just like the one in Word 97, 2000, and 2002 [pcworld.com] which "could permit a clever cracker to steal copies of files on your hard drive."
So this must mean that over 99% of their call volume is in regard to "features." Yeah, that's it!
I get it (Score:5, Funny)
That's why they create so many of them. It's all for the customers.
How many times (Score:4, Interesting)
Gates has no insight...no savvy...no compassion, and can't relate beyond his eyebrows. This was old news 10 years ago...it is old news now....it will be old news 10 years from now. The man is clueless. Read 'the Road Ahead' (if you can stand climbing thru a dumpster to find a copy) and you'll see just one prime example, especially now that time has passed and his ignorance can be viewed with hindsight.
And don't whine how he must be successful since he has sooooo much money. Crime pays.
Hey you're right! (Score:3, Funny)
I read the Road Ahead and in there Bill says: "the obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers."
Re:Hey you're right! (Score:4, Funny)
Kind of Old.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Funny, I used to get lots of letters from irate fanboys who asserted that it was an obvious fake. Not one of them could spell.
/. editors got duped again !!! (Score:5, Informative)
How do
This link is not even on FOCUS magazine's website [focus.de]
This post fooled you all
The interview link in the post is on The Cantrip Corpus [cantrip.org]
website
cantrip: (kän tRip), n. (Chiefly Scot.)
1. a magical charm or enchantment; 2. an elaborate deception or prank.
corpus: (kôr pus), n., pl. -pora,
1. a complete set of writings; 2. a dead body.
Sounds fake (Score:5, Informative)
Gates:
No! If you really think there's a bug you should report a bug. Maybe you're not using it properly. Have you ever considered that?
FOCUS:
Yeah, I did...
Gates:
It turns out Luddites don't know how to use software properly, so you should look into that.
---
Gates:
No, only if that is what'll sell!
Gates is a businessman - I don't think he'd be stupid enough to say this kind of stuff in an interview. I want to see the original source documents.
Grammar Mangled (Score:4, Informative)
At least it wasn't done in mandarin chinese where pronunciation is the difference between horse and mother.
That explains it! (Score:4, Funny)
And to think that I actually spent money on a shrink. Thanks for the free mental diagnosis Mr Gates!
Er... (Score:4, Insightful)
What the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What the hell? (Score:5, Informative)
* Upgrades aren't for fixing bugs. People won't upgrade just for bug fixes.
* When asked about competitor's products, he just kinda laughed them all off and basically said "it's obvious our products are better in all aspects."
* Specifically took pot shots at Geoworks, and I think OS/2 also.
Isn't it REALLY old? (Score:3, Funny)
Tech Support (Score:5, Funny)
I do tech support for a local ISP and some of the calls we get are ridiculous.
Me:Okay, Click next. (On 7th screen of 'Internet Connection Wizard')
User: Alright, now it wants my username and passowrd.
Me: Type them in the appropriate blanks. Make sure password is case-sensitive.
User: I thought it was qwExEjv?
Me: Pardon me?
Later...
Me: What do you see now? (1235th screen of 'ICW')
User: The same thing as I did before, nothing has changed. Is this thing broken? Are you sure you're doing this right?
Me: You see the exact same thing? (perplexed)
User: YES.
Me: Oh. Click Next please.
User: Oh, you didn't say to click next.
I mean COME ON
Was interviewed in 1995! (Score:3, Insightful)
And it seems to be about Win95 which is totally different to Win 3.11 so I can understand why Bill says most of the calls are about people not knowing how to use it properly. That wouldnt hold true today though.
did anyone else notice (Score:4, Interesting)
from http://www.cantrip.org/
The Welcome:
cantrip: (kän tRip), n. (Chiefly Scot.)
1. a magical charm or enchantment;
2. an elaborate deception or prank.
I hate to defend but... (Score:3, Redundant)
As a side issue, I work with Microsoft (yes, and Linux, and Apple) software almost every day; and I work with technical people who debug on those three platforms. Generally speaking, the bugs are rarely with the Microsoft software (and, as flameproofing, Linux tends to be pretty un-buggy as well). The bugs tend to be with non-Microsoft software running on the Microsoft platform. I have a laptop that runs Windows 2000, MS Word, IE 5, and a pretty plain-vanilla printer driver. It runs nothing else, and I always run it in a fairly protected mode. It works fine. I've never encountered a bug, or a bluescreen, or a crash (which I can't say for my other boxen, Linux or Windows, which have been stressed).
Granted, there may be bugs in other software, or libraries, or DLLs, or any other system components, which cause those software to fail -- but I've found precious little in terms of bugs in the base software put out by MS. They do a fairly good job at that, for all the other things they can't do right...
Luddites (Score:4, Interesting)
So does that mean that most people are Luddites? In short, yes. When was the last time that a normal (non-technical) manager wanted to change their computers to Linux?
Artical Text (Score:3, Insightful)
FOCUS Magazine Interview with Bill Gates:
Microsoft Code Has No Bugs (that Microsoft cares about)
In this interview, Big Bill gets distracted and reveals his contempt for you, his loyal customer.
Note: this page is also available in Italiano, Español, and Japanese.
In an interview for German weekly magazine FOCUS (nr.43, October 23,1995, pages 206-212), Microsoft`s Mr. Bill Gates has made some statements about software quality of MS products. [See executive summary, below.] After lengthy inquiries about how PCs should and could be used (including some angry comments on some questions which Mr. Gates evidently did not like), the interviewer comes to storage requirements of MS products; it ends with the following dispute:
FOCUS:
Every new release of a software which has less bugs than the older one is also more complex and has more features...
Gates:
No, only if that is what'll sell!
FOCUS:
But...
Gates:
Only if that is what'll sell! We've never done a piece of software unless we thought it would sell. That's why everything we do in software
FOCUS:
But on the other hand - you would say: Okay, folks, if you don't like these new features, stay with the old version, and keep the bugs?
Gates:
No! We have lots and lots of competitors. The new version - it's not there to fix bugs. That's not the reason we come up with a new version.
FOCUS:
But there are bugs an any version which people would really like to have fixed.
Gates:
No! There are no significant bugs in our released software that any significant number of users want fixed.
FOCUS:
Oh, my God. I always get mad at my computer if MS Word swallows the page numbers of a document which I printed a couple of times with page numbers. If I complain to anybody they say "Well, upgrade from version 5.11 to 6.0".
Gates:
No! If you really think there's a bug you should report a bug. Maybe you're not using it properly. Have you ever considered that?
FOCUS:
Yeah, I did...
Gates:
It turns out Luddites don't know how to use software properly, so you should look into that. -- The reason we come up with new versions is not to fix bugs. It's absolutely not. It's the stupidest reason to buy a new version I ever heard. When we do a new version we put in lots of new things that people are asking for. And so, in no sense, is stability a reason to move to a new version. It's never a reason.
FOCUS:
How come I keep being told by computer vendors "Well, we know about this bug, wait till the next version is there, it'll be fixed"? I hear this all the time. How come? If you're telling me there are no significant bugs in software and there is no reason to do a new version?
Gates:
No. I'm saying: We don't do a new version to fix bugs. We don't. Not enough people would buy it. You can take a hundred people using Microsoft Word. Call them up and say "Would you buy a new version because of bugs?" You won't get a single person to say they'd buy a new version because of bugs. We'd never be able to sell a release on that basis.
FOCUS:
Probably you have other contacts to your software developers. But if Mister Anybody, like me, calls up a store or a support line and says, "Hey listen, there's a bug"
Gates:
Guess how much we spend on phone calls every year.
FOCUS:
Hm, a couple of million dollars?
Gates:
500 million dollars a year. We take every one of these phone calls and classify them. That's the input we use to do the next version. So it's like the worlds biggest feedback loop. People call in - we decide what to do on it. Do you want to know what percentage of those phonecalls relates to bugs in the software? Less than one percent.
FOCUS:
So people call in to say "Hey listen, I would love to have this and that feature"?
Gates:
Actually, that's about five percent. Most of them call to get advice on how to do a certain thing with the software. That's the primary thing. We could have you sit and listen to these phone calls. There are millions and millions of them. It really isn't statistically significant. Sit in and listen to Win 95 calls, sit in and listen to Word calls, and wait, just wait for weeks and weeks for someone to call in and say "Oh, I found a bug in this thing".
FOCUS:
So where does this common feeling of frustration come from that unites all the PC users? Everybody experiences it every day that these things simply don't work like they should.
Gates:
Because it's cool. It's like, "Yeah, been there done that - oh, yeah, I know that bug." - I can understand that phenomenon sociologically, not technically.
Executive Summary:
So...
Bug reports are statistically, therefore actually, unimportant;
If you want a bug fixed, you are (by definition) in the minority;
Microsoft doesn't care about bugs because bug fixes are not a significant source of revenue;
If you think you found a bug, it really only means you're incompetent;
Anyway, people only complain about bugs to show how cool they are, not because bugs cause any real problems.
Straight from the horse's mouth.
More information....
(Not all software is as unreliable as Microsoft's. For example, PCs running Linux often run for many months without need to reboot for any reason.)
Text for this page is extracted from the RISKS archive:
This is the raw interview transcript (from which the magazine article was transcribed in German) kindly provided by the interviewer, Dr. Jürgen Scriba. The introductory text at the top is from Klaus Brunnstein, as found in . (A big Thank You to Drs. Scriba, Brunnstein, Neumann, and Marshall for making this material available, to Michele Beltrame for the Italian translation, to Iñaky Peréz Gonzáles for the castellano translation, and SHINYAMA Yusuke for the Japanese translation.)
If you maintain a web page, you are encouraged to make a link to this one.
Send email: ncm-nospam@cantrip.org Copyright ©1996 by Nathan Myers. All Rights Reserved. URL:
BTW... Scientology and Scientology.
That's not quite it (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed.
Never mind that this article is from 1995 -- the Slashdot summary is incorrect. Bill isn't saying that Microsoft never fixes bugs. He says, "We don't do a new version to fix bugs. ... We'd never be able to sell a release on that basis." [Emphasis added.] This doesn't mean that Microsoft never fixes bugs, or that Bill doesn't think bugfixes are important. He's saying that a product can't be sold on bugfixes alone.
And he's probably right. Consider Apple's release of Mac OS X 10.2. They charged people who already had 10.1. Those people complained pretty loudly about being charged for a "point-one" upgrade, and that was bugfixes and a feature release. Guess how much Apple's "point-oh-one" updates cost? Nothing.
If you try to charge people for upgrades that only contain bugfixes, you will either be ignored or yelled at.
Redundant story, redundant comment (Score:3, Funny)
Jeez, is Commander Taco THAT backlogged?
I can fill the page with my tech support stories.. (Score:5, Funny)
1. Me: Turn on your computer and when it is finished loading wait about ten seconds
Her: How long is ten seconds?
2. Me: Enter your 10 digit customer id (supposed to enter into box on screen).. i then hear him entering the 10 digits into the telephone
3. Me: What version of Windows do you have?
Her: What's Windows?
Me: You know, Microsoft Windows. What version of the operating system do you have?
Her: I've never heard of Windows
4. Me: Put the floppy disc into the drive
Him: Ok, let me open it noises...noises..noises
Him: This disc is round but the slot is a rectangle. I don't think it will fit.
Me: Um, did you actually take apart the floppy disc and remove it from its shell?
Him: Oh, yeah, was I not supposed to do that?
Above stories are all true and have happend within the last three months. Ah the joy of college part-time jobs as tech support.
this is a joke? (Score:3, Informative)
Either way I don't see this as an interesting piece. The reporter plays it stupid and tries to get Gates angry so he will say a bunch of stupid and incoherent shit.
Hey, the man is right... (Score:3, Funny)
They aren't exploits and flaws... they're FEATURES!
What a bunch of bullocks.
Do the Math (Score:3, Interesting)
One percent of $500 million means that just the phone calls of his bugs cost him $5 million per year to answer the phone. If I got $5 million of bug reports per year, I'd figure I had a problem.
Take a guess at the percentage of users who encounter bugs and realize that they are bugs. This might also be pretty low. Take a guess at the percentage of users who realize that they have come across a bug and bother to report it. This should also be very low, because (1) you are expecting to spend half of eternity on hold, (2) you are expecting that they aren't going to fix it just for you anyway, (3) you are expecting that some of their other hundreds of millions of users have already reported it, and (4) you know that the people who answer the phone are no fun to talk with and will just blame you like Gates does in this interview and you've had enough aggravation already.
With low percentages at each stage of the bug reporting process, and with some reasonable estimate of the dollar and time cost of each bug that smacks a user, we can extrapolate that the annual cost of Microsoft's bugs is greater than the combined GNP of half the member nations of the UN.
Speaking of the UN, don't bomb Iraq, just airdrop Windows ME disks and cubicles.
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
And in other recent news... (Score:5, Funny)
Atomic bomb ends war with Japan!
Slashdot editors discover that they can avoid duplicates by posting stories that predate slashdot!
Article from 1995 (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyway, a couple points:
- I think there was some mis-communication. Gates is right -- nobody buys a new version to fix bugs. You might download an updated point release (or service pack or whatever) to fix bugs. But you don't often go from Office 97 to 2000 over some minor irritations.
- I actually believe the bug report percentage in relation to their phone call volume. When's the last time you called a software company to report a bug? When is the last time you discovered a truly unique bug in a major piece of software that you were sure wasn't known about?
And as someone else mentioned, most of their calls are along the lines of "how do I turn my computer on?" or "I upgraded MSN and it broke my inner-net"
So, basically, it's a poor article from 8 years ago. Slow news day...
And you know why... (Score:3, Insightful)
If konqueror crashes then I get a nice backtrace and I know exactly where to send the bug report. I care about it and feel like my input counts. It's part of a larger effort to make something good. So I submit the bug report with all relevant information.
Now when I used MS products if something crashed or didn't work I'd think "someone else has reported it", or "it's not worth the effort", or "I have no idea how to reproduce the error". No-one want to make a phonecall just to report a bug, but for a new feature they will. A bug is something everyone experiences, so not much point reporting. But a new feature or a change in the way things are done, that's something possibly only "I" want, so then it's worth suggesting.
It should be considered that the number of bug reports is related to culture - that there's simply not enough motivation to report them.
Users not willing to pay for bug fixes (Score:5, Insightful)
"We don't do a new version to fix bugs. We don't. Not enough people would buy it. You can take a hundred people using Microsoft Word. Call them up and say 'Would you buy a new version because of bugs?' You won't get a single person to say they'd buy a new version because of bugs."
No matter how much we SAY we hate software bugs, we still go out and buy software that we know probably contains them. And we are not really that willing to pay for bug fixes. Not because they "should be free" - we already paid for the software, so there is no reason for the vendor to put effort into releasing fixes (unless we're on a support contract or something). If we software consumers really want to make a point that bugs will not be tolerated, then we have to STOP paying for buggy software. And if we still hand over the cash, with full knowledge of potential bugs, then by the economic principle of revealed preference, the vendor is right - it's not worth it to fix bugs.
And again... (Score:4, Insightful)
Simply, Bill Gates' comments are probably close to the truth. He is not a stupid man. You may hate him for being rich. You may despise his tactics. But to dismiss his analysis of his own company and industry?
Even if you feel his domination of the industry is unjust, his views cannot be dismissed as inaccurate. Or swept aside just because they "sound arrogant". So he's direct and straightforward. It's not a crime. It worked for him.
I don't object to debating the man's ideas. I don't object to disagreeing with everything he says! But the editor who posted this article added "Boy, where do you even begin...", which implies to me an attitude not of one who hopes to learn that he may one day rule (or at least compete), but, more likely, one who despises authority of all kinds.
"Boy, where do you even begin..." is a rallying cry for the lazy and unimaginative, not the industrious and analytical.
Many postings in this thread have been thoughtful, but I wish in the future, the editorial staff could be more thoughtful themselves, and avoid such cliche commentary.
Really, it's not that buggy (Score:5, Insightful)
Doesn't anybody here ever use any Borland software? You'd start thinking Microsoft had a top notch QA department. Try just about anything from Borland, but I'd say Paradox (that goes back a few years now) was the very worst. Then there's C++ builder. Pick your version. We're talking about a level and inconsistency here that would make you beg for a daily BSOD. In fact they have a bug that has been on the known bug list for 3 or 4 YEARS now, and they claim they CAN'T fix it. Ha! That's just the one I know about.
But do we ever hear a word about it around here? No.
How about the horror stories about Apple's previous OS constantly locking and crashing? Do we hear about those? No.
But we sure do hear about the BSOD, even though Win2K is plenty solid enough for your average desktop computer user, myself included. The version known for frequent BSOD'S (and boy was it bad) is three years in the past folks!
But at least it's entertaining to watch people sit around and mindlessy bash MS. Bill's right I guess. Bitching about bugs really is cool.
You begin by asking questions (Score:4, Insightful)
Can anyone vouch for the veracity of the comments in it?
Did the interview really take place?
Did the interview take place at a time and in an environment that would have an effect on today?
If you just want to blindly start swinging because it's Bill Gates, then fine, do your swinging. But if you want to join the world of grownups, maybe it would be useful to think critically.
It was a VERY long time ago ... (Score:5, Interesting)
That is 8 years ago. 8 years ago Microsoft was positively pleasant compared with current behaviour.
So who cares what Bill said (or maybe didn't say) back then?
Re:You begin by asking questions (Score:3, Informative)
Also, it credits a few people for translations, eg inaky perez gonzalez for translation into spanish - iirc he wrote the original USB stack for linux and he now works for intel (unless there's 2 of him
Then Why Does He Sound Like a Robot? (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean, he sounds so ridiculous, like a cartoon villain.
Re:You begin by asking questions (Score:5, Insightful)
Even if this is a real interview, we are only being given a snippet, not including what led up to the dispute between gates and the interviewer. It is not uncommon for interviewers to back interviewees into a corner and make them look like idiots. We're not being shown if that's what has happened here (even though it sounds pretty damning anyways).
then there's the fact that it is from a German magazine. Was this published in english or was Gates originally translated into german and then back into english for us to view? That could make a difference too.
Also, this interview is over seven years old. Haven't we all figured out that Gates is evil already? Just look at the little Gates/Borg icon - evil! Is this article really news?
I never thought I'd defend Gates over anything, but I'm more interested in accuracy and truth than having a lynching party.
Re:You begin by asking questions (Score:3, Informative)
It was interesting to learn that the 640k comment is an urban legend. I'll have to remember to tell people that.
But, it's also too bad that your love for a meglomaniac renders you unable to see the truth about his character. Someone managed to find a source I would consider authoritative, a major academic journal. Here's the post:
l d=-1&commentsort=3&tid=109&mode=thread&pid=5342140 #5342157 [slashdot.org]
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=54440&thresho
and here's the journal article:
http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/17.44.html#subj11 [ncl.ac.uk]
Re:You begin by asking questions (Score:3, Insightful)
I can vouch for having read it in a magazine 8 years ago. I believe it was 'Time' or 'Wired'. I remember because of the intense conflicting emotions it stirred in me. I was amused, outraged, felt like my worst suspicions were confirmed, and sad because I knew people would use their software anyway.
It's an actual article. Just goes to show how little vision and foresight good old Bill really has.
Re:You begin by asking questions (Score:4, Informative)
Re:You begin by asking questions (Score:4, Informative)
It came from a tech satire website. The interview did not take place. You may now put down the pitchforks and torches...
Your information is wrong. The interview actually appeared in the german focus magazine in 1995. Look at the [focus.msn.de]
Focus archive if you can read german and are willing to spend some euros.
-- Marcus
Re:Give me ten programmers... (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course my Powerbook running OS 10.2.3 hangs 50% of the time when booting lately. Some corrupted file or something. My Mom called tonight and complained that she gets out of memory errors on her IMac when running AOL. Of course, I personally can take care of a Windows box while I am still not completely familiar with OS X.
There is no OS that is dummy proof these days. It doesn't matter if its Apple or Microsoft. If you can't take care of your own computer, you will be up shit's creek at some point or another...
Re:Give me ten programmers... (Score:5, Insightful)
Secondly, I'll bet from looking purely at support calls, he's correct. How many people are you aware of that are willing to spend money to be told "yep, that's a bug"? When Word just disappears altogether, how many people think "hmm - I'll call MS and tell them about it" and instead just throw up their hands in dismay, mutter ... something, reboot, and try again? Not that this is anything against your post - yeah, MS software is known to be buggy. But I'll bet that the metrics Bill was talking about were correct - and completely misleading.
However, what Bill was really trying to do was argue that when Microsoft releases a new version of one of their products (Word was the example given), they are not releasing a for-pay patch. They are releasing software that contains more and better features! At least, that's his argument. The whole point of his argument was not that MS software does not contain bugs - is what that new releases aren't just expensive patches.
Whether you agree or not...
therein lies the rub (Score:3, Interesting)
complaining is cool. submitting the actually bug doesn't happen often. automated bug reports tend not to tell jack (unless of course you want to send a tidy package containing every spec of information about your machine every time there's an application level crash).
Re:1995? (Score:4, Insightful)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
someone else mentioned this, I'm just re-posting it.
Re:no no (Score:5, Funny)
Complaining about bugs may or may not be cool, but complaining about people complaining about bugs becuase it's cool is not cool. I know that I am complaining about someone complaining about people complaining about bugs and I may not be cool, but it would be cool if there were less bugs and people didn't complain about bugs and people didn't complain about people complaining about bugs being cool.
Does your code read like this? Then it's probably got bugs. And that's not cool.
Re:Linux is so much better..... (Score:3, Insightful)