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Encryption For All Sponsored by German Govt. 208

Posted by timothy from the geheim-und-sicher dept.
fiffilinus writes: "The German Ministry of Economics uses the CeBIT computer fair as a forum to propagate its GnuPP (Gnu Privacy Project -- I know, it is *not* GPG, but GPG is part of the package) encryption package to the public, giving away CD-roms with the package. The CeBIT press release can be found here. The download for those who can't make it to CeBIT is here. The package is available in English too, but the page itself has to be put through the fish, as usual. Finally a government that moves in the right direction ..."
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Encryption For All Sponsored by German Govt. More

Encryption For All Sponsored by German Govt.

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  • ...sponsorship is not the same thing as ownership.

  • WATCH OUT (Score:1, Troll)

    by smkndrkn ( 3654 )
    The government could have put a BACK DOOR into this package rendering all your cryptographically-delivered pr0n viewable by the evil empire!

    • Yes, they might have.

      Of course, by giving you the source they've also given you the opportunity to check for backdoors.

    • ...because it is in Germanys interest to strengthen the privacy of it's citizens and businesses.
      With the whole Echelon thing going on (and the EU has officially expressed it's concern about this. For example it is very concerned that the US government "leaks" sensitive info to corps in order to give them a competitive edge.)

      So in this case it seems that the european governments has a common interest with the tin foil hat community.
      There is really no reason to be paranoid, and it will probably boost encryption and security concerns in european corporations, when governments actually endorse it.
      Do not underestimate the power of this! It is clearly a Good Thing (tm)

      And if strong encryption is standard in Europa, the US will follow sooner or later...

      I work for a government agency in a small european country, and I for one welcomes this. It will make my daily evangelization a lot easier.
  • Why is it that we need to go to Germany to get software to protect our freedom of speech?

    What is wrong with this picture?
      • The post is playing on the association that (small) minds make between Germany as a country and the Nationalist party (more commonly known as nazi) which controled Germany decades ago, as well as with the association with America is the home of the free, with various "freedoms" that have been enjoyed by americans in the past are now being limited in various ways.

    • Thats because GERMANS don't have the kind of media industry USA have. There is no MPAG or RIAG, at least in the same terms as in USA.

      Good form them.
      • Ever heard of Bertelsman? One of the big five. They are based in Germany. Or how about Krichgroup? Another big one (but about to go bankrupt)

        The difference in the media industry between the US and Germany is ZIP, ZILCH NADA... Global corporatization took care of any differences that did exist!!!

        Globalism is good, but global corporatization is not so good!!!
      • GERMANS don't have the kind of media industry USA have.

        I have two words for you: Springer Verlag.

        Another poster already mentioned Bertelsmann and Leo Kirch, but those two are I believe not as political as Springer. Springer is bad, especially since they couple yellow journalism with a high popular appeal (Bild Zeitung) with a definite right-wing political agenda. They used be quite extreme, I'd say they're merely conservative now.

        I am not 100% sure though. Any German readers who can enlighten us?

        Mart
    • What? I don't quite get that post. Are you saying there wasn't free speech in Germany immediately before encryption? And what does this have to do with any other citizens using encryption? To the best of my knowledge, the rest of western europe (or the americas) doesn't forbid their citizens from using the exact same encryption technology; They just don't go handing it out on CDs. So enlighten me, what does this have to do with free speech? I believe this is a matter of government sponsorship rather than freedom of speech. It wasn't outlawed to begin with.
      • Just because something isn't forbidden it doesn't mean a government has thought about it. Here is a government that shows it's people that not only encryption may be used, but they also support it. That's a very good sign, compared to what's happening in the so-called 'land of the free' nowadays.
        • I don't quite get that logic though. You talk like encryption is illegal in America. I think this is just needless bashing perpetuated by this "community." Here in the USA, it is legal to use encryption. Just because they don't hand it to you on a CD doesn't mean that it isn't encouraged. I think a lot of people in this "community" need to get a grasp of reality rather than living in a fantasy world where they think the government is out to get them all the time. Encryption is legal in the rest of western europe and America.
    • "Why is it that we need to go to Germany to get software to protect our freedom of speech?"

      Because you aren't clever enough to type 'apt-get install gnupg', I suppose.

      Gnu Privacy Guard is readily available in the USA.
      • Gnu Privacy Guard is readily available in the USA... but downloaded from non-us.debian.org [debian.org].

        However ironic, that was irrelevant. The point the original poster was trying to make, I believe, is in Germany they have government-sanctioned encryption being distributed to the masses. In the U.S. we still have quirky export regulations, we have the government trying to pass various limiting laws (backdoors, key escrow, etc.), and we have no widely-available, widely-used encryption software, let alone coming from the government itself.

        (By widely-available, widely-used I mean something available to and used by the masses; Im sure all us Linux users MD5 our passwords and use SSH, but we make up, what, 1% of the countrys population?)
  • Somehow, I doubt the government's good intentions. If they are supplying encryption, free to everyone, it must be for some reason. I would conjecture either because it has a backdoor that the government already knows about. Or, the strength of the encryption is within their grasp to crack and therefore, this free program will inhibit further encryption growth and research. Who would want to spend money on something, if it's already free? This doesn't sound like a pure philanthropic endeavor.
    • You may recall (if not google can help you find out), that the German govt was a tad upset over the Echelon flap and the British RIPA law. The degree of regulatory control the German gubmint already has over everday life in Germany is pretty darn impressive. Perhaps someone from Germany could weigh in with an opinion?

      I'm sure if the gubmint wants to crack down on their radical right (aka neo-nazis) or outlawed religious organizations (aka COS) they won't find the nature of the encryption employed by those organizations a major problem in prosecuting the lawbreakers.

      I'm not saying they don't have their own bunch of control freaks in their gubmint over there, but they also have a certain amount of recent history in favor of encryption - simply to prevent other governments from spying on their citizens (especially their corporate citizens) Face it, they recognize they have a lot to lose from "corporate espionage" if it makes German corps less competitive.
    • It might seem incredible, but in this case the government is acting on behalf of the people. Almost as if it felt that it might be accountable in some way, or as if there was some connection between the people and the government...

    • Re:The Problem is... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Aanallein ( 556209 )
      Somehow, I doubt the government's good intentions.

      I actually am serious about the following. I've seen more people here express the same sentiment. Do you people really not trust government in general that much? I know I don't trust the American goverment either, but here in Europe we don't have the feeling we need something like a right to bear arms to defend ourselves from the government. The government still consists of people. People we choose, and people who work for us, the people. Sure, politicians are politicians, no matter where they are, but there are enough checks and balances that I don't think anyone in Europe seriously thinks the government is working more for its own good, rather than for that of the people it's serving.
      Yet from what I observe, there are very few people anywhere in the world who believe the government of the USA to do the same.

      Now I wonder... Does this make people believe that Europeans are naive, that our governments are just as bad? Or do you actually trust the American government after all? (And if not, doesn't that say something very significant about that government?) Or did you never realize a government can actually work for the good of the people, providing them security not only from itself, but also from other governments which aren't to be trusted as much (Echelon, Carnivore, ...)?

      I'm trying to ask this as non-offensively as possible, while still pointing to where I think the differences can be found. If you are offended, please, realize that was not the intent of this post. I simply really wonder about how you people from across the pond look at trusting both your own government and other governments.
      • I'm 'merican. I'm pretty friggin' proud of that. But though I like my country, I'm also really aware that the Government of the United States doesn't really give a damn about anything but its own perpetuation. The US government lies to its citizens on a regular basis about . . . well, just about everything.
        But MOST citizens tolerate this because they just don't want to know the truth. Whatever else is the case, the Shitty Foreign Policies mean that back in the heartland of the good ole US of A, things are rosy and fluffy and happy. And as long as the SFP's keep it that way, the government can do just about anything it wants to. That is the "WHY" in your general US citizen's double-think. "My government lies to me." - "My government is looking out for me."

        Now, having said all that. I think the German government is on the Up and Up. I don't, personally, think that every government in the world is as corrupt as the USA's.

        John Q. Americano
      • Having lived on both sides of the pond I have to say that I am North American and distrustful of governments. In Germany, France, etc people are trustful and look to the government for guidance.

        >>but there are enough checks and balances that I don't think anyone in Europe seriously thinks the government is working more for its own good, rather than for that of the people it's serving.

        You are kidding right?

        Have you looked at the laundered money going through the individual political parties in Germany and France? For example stats in Germany (Speigel TV March 17, 2002) say that there are officially 220 corruption cases. Think about it OFFICIAL CORRUPTION SCANDALS!!! Corruption in the sense of faking, changing, laundering, etc!!!

        Have you see how the German government for work faked the numbers to make it look like the government was actually doing something?

        Have you heard of the move by the German government to not consider people over 50 unemployed but in pre-retirement? This way the the unemployment numbers would look better...

        Did you see the how Volkswagon and Mercedes would not sell or service their own cars not bought in Germany? And the government did NOTHING! Why corruption...

        Sorry, but European governments do NOT always look in the best interest of the people. I DO LIKE the skepticism bred into you living in Canada and the US.

        But I do see hope in Mario Monti.. He is the "DOJ" of Europe and HE IS changing things for the better. He is slapping fines and changing business practices, even when the governments are not HAPPY!!!

    • Re:The Problem is... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by CakerX ( 149266 )
      what the fuck is everyones problem, why does everyone assume every move made by every goverment everywhere is evil. Come on, this is a good move done by a goverment for once. you should stop looking for hidden motives and enjoy the fact that somewhere out there there is a goverment not run by a deush-bag from texas who values a 1984 style goverment. Germany is making an already free technology more available to its citizens. I will give the German gov a BIG thumbs up about this one. No doubt there are many coders that will check to make sure there is no backdoor in the software, and if there is, you'll hear about tommorow on theregister.co.uk and /. the day after that.

      Also another big thumbs up to germany from going from nazisim in WW2 to where they are today.

      why is everyone so god damn paranoid, if you guys hit the ol' pipe without me I am gonna be pissed
  • The fish is a bit weird on the translations. Anyone got a link for a better translation engine?

    Isn't Brazil another goverment that has been known to enbrace open source? However embracing open source, and pushing open source warez to your population is another. This sets a new presedence in that regard.

    I think here in the USA, the goverment would rather do the oposite. Like the key escro stuff a few years ago, and now the DMCA.
    • Some federal units here (Brazil) embrace open-source, mostly in left-wing governed states. But AFAIK, the penetration of OSS here is pitiful.

      Since everyone pirates windoze/office/corel/games freely, there is no (monetary) incentive to go OSS.

      OSS is widely used in state universities and some schools too, thanks to some OSS martyrs we have ;-)

  • slashdotted allready (Score:1, Redundant)

    by Anonymous Coward
    CeBIT: Federal German Ministry of Economics Forces E-mail Encryption

    At the CeBIT the Federal German Ministry of Economics distributes for free the mail encryption program GnuPP 1.1 complete with manual. The mail roboter Adele shall provide a lead-in to the issue by practising the krypto mail communication together with the user.

    The Federal German Ministry of Economics [www.bmwi.de] is supporting the open source project GnuPP [gnupp.org] (GNU [gnu.org] Privacy Project) since the year 2000. With that the Ministry wants to provide the development of a cryptography infrastructure that does not depend on manufacturers, that is safe and corresponds to international standards. It would not be recommended to use standard software in security sensitive areas and the Ministry explicitly warns to do so in its press release [sicherheit...nternet.de]. Only the open source principle allows the user to look at the complete programming of a software, and that means security to the greatest extent.

    Apart from the software [gnupp.org] the package of the Ministry contains a two-piece manual that is completely new written and designed. With the help of this manual even laypersons shall be able to clear the first hurdle of e-mail encryption. And something else is new: "Adele" (adele@gnupp.org), an exercise roboter for practising the procedure of encryption and decryption as often as the entry-level user will need it. Adele reacts to sent-in public keys and encrypted e-mails, sends its own public key, and answers to encrypted and decrypted incoming e-mails. In this way a dialog between correspondence partners is formed so that entry-level users can practise transactions of e-mail encryption "like in real life" and may gain confidence in the safety of this procedure.

    At the CeBIT one can get the GnuPP package (manual with CD-ROM) for free at the stands of the Federal German Ministry of Economics. During the entire fair the Ministry also provides presentations and advisory service for free.

    For background informations and details on the fair please surf tecCHANNEL.DE and read our big CeBIT Special [tecchannel.de] (German only, please bear with us). Moreover we have compiled for you all CeBIT news in category-specific news channels [tecchannel.de]. (jlu/bmu)

    Federal German Ministry of Economics: pavilion11, stand D25

    Pavillon D / 11, stands 76 and 5


    • And something else is new: "Adele" (adele@gnupp.org), an exercise roboter for practising the procedure of encryption and decryption as often as the entry-level user will need it.

      Cool! This could make it very easy and comfortable for a beginner to get the hang of using encryption. It might be inconvenient or embarrassing for some to send many test messages to friends, so this would make it easy (even fun?) This could also help new users get acquainted with with the idea of key servers.

      This is an excellent idea, folks :-)

  • Security Concerns (Echelon) & Self-Promotion (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Donny Smith ( 567043 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @02:29PM (#3177251)
    Their primary motive is to let German individuals and corporations protect themselves from Echelon and similar projects.
    Which makes me think - no wonder France and Germany have their own Linux distributions and the U.K. doesn't! A grain of security concerns, a grain of national pride, and perhaps a grain of software nationalism, etc...
    Get the funny part of the press release (I think they kind of screwed up the translation):
    ---------
    ...is safe and corresponds to international standards. It would not be recommended (sic!) to use standard software in security sensitive areas and the Ministry explicitly warns to do so in its press release.
    ---------

    And of course they can't push MS products at CeBIT, it wouldn't help them in any way. But they had to do something and Linux has always made a good means for low-cost self promotion ...

  • Software Patents? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by guerby ( 49204 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @02:33PM (#3177261) Homepage
    With a few thousands illegal patents delivered by europe software patent factory [european-p...office.org], it would be fun to count how many patents this government sponsored software infringes :). Hopefully some German politicians clearly said no to patents [ffii.org]. After France, there's hope to get a software patents free Europe if Germany officials say no too.

  • Hmmm... Germany is looking better and better... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Bonker ( 243350 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @02:33PM (#3177263)
    First they decided to get rid of Windows in the government and are moving to OSS for all government IT installations if I remember correctly. Now they're promoting hard encryption for all their citezens. This seems like a government that truly cares about the rights of its citzens, especially where privacy and technology are concerned.

    What is the catch? What makes Germany less or more desireable for people who are concerned about their rights as they relate to technology, privacy, or otherwise?

    I know there are some english speaking Germans reading /. Enlighten us, please...
    • i think germania realized that in order to prevent anything resembling what happened with Hitler and the Nazis, the citizens must be free to think as they want, must be able to go on with their lives with the privacy and freedom that all humans deserve.

      It seems the bigger a mistake is, the greater an opportunity there is to grow and learn from that mistake.

      • i think germania realized that in order to prevent anything resembling what happened with Hitler and the Nazis, the citizens must be free to think as they want, must be able to go on with their lives with the privacy and freedom that all humans deserve.

        Ironically, you are free to think anything you want -- except if it has to do with Nazism. The Nazi party is banned in Germany. Understandable given the history, but German is hardly the home of free thinkers.

        • The Nazi party is banned in Germany.
          Note, however, that it is not the only banned party. The communist party got banned as well, e.g..

          Oh, and scince you seem to worry, there are still more than enough nazis aroung here, thank you. They still manage to kill a foreigner or to destroy a jewish cemetary once month or so. Of course, the good times of the early nineties are over, where nazis sieged a house inhabited mostly by vietnamese guest-workers for three days in Rostock, having fun with molotow-cocktails, applauded by their Volksgenossen, protected by the police, and supported by the free press.

          It's not as if nazis weren't still a real problem in germany, you know.

          • They still manage to kill a foreigner or to destroy a jewish cemetary once month or so.

            No one says that should be legal. However actions should be illegal. It's generally a mistake to make thoughts illegal. The US has its share of Nazis as well, but they are just laughed at rather than banned. Guess what would happen if they were suddenly banned? Right -- they would get power from the negative attention, and suddenly would become the "cool thing" for the amateur anarchists.

            • Guess what would happen if they were suddenly banned? Right -- they would get power from the negative attention, and suddenly would become the "cool thing" for the amateur anarchists.

              Heh, "cool thing" like teaching of evolution in schools or offering of evolutionary literature in libraries in certain Southern US states has become, I could imagine. Or showing tits in telly anywhere in the land of the "free".

            • "It's generally a mistake to make thoughts illegal."

              And quite impossible. I can think anything thing I want without you ever knowing what I was thinking about. Though cannot be banned, restriced, or made illegal. Speech, writing, etc., are only means of sharing our thoughts and it is that which becomes restricted.

              There is no right more basic, and inalienable and though of free though. Why? Cause there is no possible way, short of brain-washing, to prevent a person from thinking about any giving topic, idea, etc.. A government might try to prevent certain ideals, but in reality, they will not succede.

              What's more frightening is the notion that some people actually beleive that any person or govenment could restrict such activity. Have we, as a human race, become that submissive to our leaders?
          • [...]protected by the police, and supported by
            [...]the free press.

            Everything else you said was true. But some protesters in Rostock were arrested by the police. They were not protected. In fact the police chief stepped back from office because the police had not acted adaequately. (Which is understandable, they were communist trained people's police, all of this happened only two years after the wall came down).

            The free press was shocked and a mass movement with big numbers of demonstrators marched thru every major city in Germany, carrying candles in their hands. "Lichtermärsche"
        • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • What makes Germany less or more desireable for people who are concerned about their rights as they relate to technology, privacy, or otherwise?

      For what it's worth, when I visited some relatives in Germany about 8 years ago (?), my uncle mentioned a couple of laws that I found absolutely astounding. First, it was illegal to leave your car (and house? Can't remember) unlocked for any period of time. If you are making multiple trips, you are required to lock the car between each trip. That's just the law (don't know if it was local or what).

      I was also amazed to learn that you have to get permission from the government in order to start a business. You see, they feel that too much competition in a particular area is bad for those local businesses, so they restrict how many of a particular business type can be in an area. After all, they can't have a business go bankrupt! That might cause job loss (never mind the inefficiency that it breeds).

      I've been to Europe a couple of times in a number of countries. There is no question that Europe is a great place to visit, but there's no way I would ever live there. They have absolutely no concept of freedom.

      The US takes a lot of flack, but there's no doubt the US is the most free country in the world. Not to mention that it has by far the best highway system in the world. :) Europe SUCKS when it comes to having sufficient road signs to mark the highways. You really get spoiled in the US with 3 signs before every exit.

      • About that business thing: the only restriction I know about is regarding urban planning, and that can restrict where you're allowed to have certain kinds of businesses in certain places. This especially goes for hazardous activities (like gas stations), and food sales.

        Saying that you need permission to start a business is way, [i]way[/i] overstating it; the local urban plan doesn't allow you to put your fast-food restaurant at a certain spot - well, just put it somewhere else. And for most business activities, there's no such concerns at all. You can start your software enterprise wherever you want.

        /Janne
      • They have absolutely no concept of freedom.

        Oh, so that must be why for example the Netherlands have legalized euthanasia, legalized softdrugs, legalized abortion, etc, etc. (And the lowest rates of problems because of it anywhere in the world.) There's freedom and freedom, you know. Personally I'd prefer living in a country where citizens are trusted with freedom to make their own choices, rather than living in a country where freedom consists of being allowed to have the feeling you can defend yourself from your government.

        A silly law like being forced to lock your car doesn't change that. As for the protectionism of small businesses - a lot has changed with the European Union solidifying. I think you're a wee bit too hasty with judging and entire continent based on a very narrow view you had a long time ago.

        • legalized euthanasia

          Which is a bad idea, because it corrupts the medical community. If you want to commit suicide, go ahead and do it, but don't corrupt MY medical care.

          legalized softdrugs

          Extremely arguable as to whether the produces more freedom from the non-drug users who have to deal with the druggies.

          legalized abortion

          That doesn't produce all that much freedom for the child, now does it? If a country had a law that said you could terminate any child under five years old at the parent's discretion, would that make that country have more "freedom"?

          • hrmmm, softdrugs = pot/shrooms/hash

            nothing to harmfull, neither cause side effects too much worse than alcohol, none are as addictive as alcohol(us is littered with drunks more than any other country)

            Legalized Abortion- woman's right to choose. once a baby is living, still in the womb its part of the mother... plus in case you haven't noticed we have a fucking population problem, who are you to tell a mother she has to keep a kid she didn't want/can't afford/will probably abuse. Think of the kid, what type of life would the kid have...Don't give me that "you don't know what that kid is going to be" cause we all know what happens...especially to teen parents...don't forget that, you can preech birth control/absenece all you fucking want but teenagers are not going to listen, you remeber being a teen right??? Some might, but there will always be teenagers having unprotected sex, I do not agree with it, but it is futile to try, not to mention in most cases harrassing/aggravating...

            Legalized Euthinasia - again we have a population problem, letting people who are hopelessly ill and WANT TO DIE kill themselves would help.

            • Well, you've managed to master all the cliches.

              Legalized Abortion- woman's right to choose.

              There is no "right to kill your children", as much as certain people want you to believe.

              plus in case you haven't noticed we have a fucking population problem,

              Uh, no we don't. And if you haven't noticed, birth rates are going down. It's estimated the world population will stabilize around 2050 or 2100.

              who are you to tell a mother she has to keep a kid she didn't want/can't afford/will probably abuse.

              Who are you to tell parents that they can't kill their two year old because it costs too much money?

              If they don't want the kid, put it up for adoption. But it's pretty arrogant of you to presume to decide which children are better off dead.

              don't forget that, you can preech birth control/absenece all you fucking want but teenagers are not going to listen, you remeber being a teen right???

              It's irrelevent whether they listen or not. That's like saying, "You can preach all you want that teenagers aren't supposed to commit burglaries, but they're not going to listen". That doesn't mean we still don't put them in jail. Just like it's not the child's fault if a teenager gets pregnant. If she gets pregnant, she has the birth. A human life is worth more than her convenience.

              again we have a population problem, letting people who are hopelessly ill and WANT TO DIE kill themselves would help.

              THERE IS NO LAW AGAINST SUICIDE. Let me repeat that: THERE IS NO LAW AGAINST SUICIDE. However, it's a HUGE mistake to give doctors a conflict of interest between saving lives and taking lives, particularly when we already have pressures to pull the plug in cases of organ donation.

      • Liberty (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Jeppe Salvesen ( 101622 )
        Europe has changed in 8 years. I don't know whether these laws in Germany have changed or not, though I suspect the EU mandated they be removed since they were in effect protectionist.

        That being said, sometimes a bit of regulation is a good thing. If the gov't makes rules to force businesses to prove their product work and deliver what the commercial says, is that an infringement of liberty? Right now, you can buy a $5 blender at kmart that will work - once. The stronger consumer rights in (parts of?) Europe mandates warranties that keep such scams off the market. Things cost a bit more, but they appear to be working better and for longer than the stash I bought when I lived in the States.

        Basically, more liberty for the consumer, less for the business. I believe that businesses that abuse their liberties should have those taken away, just like what happens when the citizens behave irresponsibly.
        • Right now, you can buy a $5 blender at kmart that will work - once.

          In a word, bullshit.

          Not only will you not find any such blender at Kmart but the GSA publishes a manual that would easily get your satisfication and money back [gsa.gov] in such a case. If your getting poor quality purchases you need to RTFM about being a intellegent consumer. No government can save you from your own stupidity. Just call your local and state consumer protection offices and stop acting like a victim.

          Oh the flamebait...
        • What if I want to buy a Blender that only needs to work once, and all I have is $5? In America I have that choice, but you are saying in Europe I do not?

          That's not my definition of consumer freedom.
      • Not to mention that it has by far the best highway system in the world. :) Europe SUCKS when it comes to having sufficient road signs to mark the highways. You really get spoiled in the US with 3 signs before every exit.

        From what I've read in my various german car enthusasiast magazines (and this was from awhile ago, so I may be mistaken, anyone with actual knowledge confirm/deny?), the engineers working make a point to make the highways more driver friendly[0] (ie: no decreasing radius turns, all roads above ~50 Kph are divided). But then again, I live in PA where you're lucky if a curve on a road is on-camber (let alone wide enough for two cars (this doesn't include the oil-tanker SUVs)). Ah but that's my rant...

        [0] - And by driver I mean someone who enjoys 'spirited' driving, not your typical 'soccer mom' driver.

      • For what it's worth, when I visited some relatives in Germany about 8 years ago (?), my uncle mentioned a couple of laws that I found absolutely astounding. First, it was illegal to leave your car (and house? Can't remember) unlocked for any period of time. If you are making multiple trips, you are required to lock the car between each trip. That's just the law (don't know if it was local or what).

        I live in Germany and I must say that these laws are something like US sex laws [everything2.com], laws that maybe really exist but nobody cares about them.

        I've been to Europe a couple of times in a number of countries. There is no question that Europe is a great place to visit, but there's no way I would ever live there. They have absolutely no concept of freedom.

        People get much more freedom in most european countries. Look at the Human Freedom Index [huppi.com] by the UN. Other Source here. [everything2.com]

        Not to mention that it has by far the best highway system in the world.

        Never heard about the German Autobahn ? The german highway system where you can drive your car without a speed limit ?

        • People get much more freedom in most european countries. Look at the Human Freedom Index [huppi.com] by the UN. Other Source here.

          The UN is the last organization I would use to measure my freedom. That report is so overly simplistic as to be laughable. For example, they seem to think that fewer government demonstrations is better -- when the exact opposite is probably closer to the truth (how many demonstrations do you think they have in Iraq)?

          The german highway system where you can drive your car without a speed limit ?

          That's the one positive, but I was mostly referring to navigation.

          • Using number of demonstrations as a measure of a countrys standing makes sense, if youre only comparing countries where demonstrations are permitted. Clearly, if country A and country B both permit open demonstrations, and A only has one a month, and B has a hundred, A has a clearly less-aggrieved populace. So its completely acceptable to compare the U.S. and any other countries which allow demonstrations, and whoever comes out lowest, probably is the country with the least-upset people. If you mix in countries that outlaw public dissent, then youve just gone and messed everything up. :) Obviously theyll score lowest.

            I think you could put countries in this order, from worst to best:

            1. A country where no one is allowed to complain.
            2. A country where everyone is allowed, and does so.
            3. A country where everyone is allowed, but doesnt need to.

            • Actually, there is a forth option: A country where everyone is allowed, but is either culturally frowned upon, or has significant legal restrictions. The US is culturally very "agitated" -- the public is not shy about demonstrating against something, anything. I think to do a valid comparison, you have to look in-depth at what people are protesting. Heck, look at Slashdot -- the average Slashdotter is complaining because they they can't steal music. That's a far cry from complaining about 50% unemployment or food rationing or military government takeovers or something.

              As an American, I think I can safely say that Americans are probably the most spoiled rotten populace in the world. The average American (particularly the average Slashdotter) have no clue what real restrictions in freedom are all about.

          • The UN is the last organization I would use to measure my freedom. That report is so overly simplistic as to be laughable.

            You are right: The report is really simplistic, but a report that uses more complex criteria wouldn't necessarily be better.Freedom is something that is very difficult to meassure.
            But are you really sure that the US is the most free country in the world ? I do not want to say that Germany or Sweden like the US suggests is the most free country in the world, but I think it is dumb to just write things like but there's no doubt the US is the most free country in the world. If you write things like that, you should at least explain why you think that. In the US you must fear capital punishment. Nazi people can say what they think, but communists got big problems when they said what they were thinking during the McCarthy time. I wouldn't say the US is the most free country in the world, I think sweden is a really good guess from the UN.
        • ...the German Autobahn ? The german highway system where you can drive your car without a speed limit
          Actually, There are speed limits [german-way.com], albeit "temporary" or recommended ones, some as low as 100 km/h.
      • I've been to Europe a couple of times in a number of countries. There is no question that Europe is a great place to visit, but there's no way I would ever live there. They have absolutely no concept of freedom.

        Funny. I live in Europe and that's the exact same feeling I have about the US.

      • Obviously someone tried to bullshit you.
        There has definitely never been a law in germany that says that you have to lock your car or your house. Neiter do you need a permission to start a business.
        No concept of freedom? I think this is not true as either. At least germany doesn't have something like the NSA or FBI, eavesdropping on your communication channels regularly. Doing such things here is very complicated for the police or the government because of very strict laws that protect your privacy.
      • Odd, as a native German having lived in Germany until 1995, I can't recall any laws that require you to lock your car or your house. Your relatives might have confused this with requirementes of their specific insurance company. Indeed, most German insurance companies will not cover theft if the car was unlocked at the time of being stolen. But this is certainly not a law by any stretch of the imagination.

        As for having to obtain permission from the government to start a business... For most types of businesses, you only need to go to the local mayor's office, pay $15 and off you go. I've done it myself in order to start a consulting business. As other posters have pointed out, the only restriction is the location for certain types of business that impact the neighborhood. Like brothels, car shops, chemical plants, etc. In this respect, Germany uses zoning much like most of the US.

        Having lived in both countries, the amount of freedom you have in either place depends on the subject matter. A few examples:

        a) Certain unions in the US have much more power to restrict and constrict businesses than German unions do.

        b) On the other hand, the German crafts laws are incredibly restrictive and certainly stifle competition. Fortunately, it looks like the EU will put an end to this hundreds of years old nonsense.

        c) As for encryption and copy protection circumvention, Germany's laws have traditionally been far more liberal than the US's. Due to pressure from the US this is changing, sadly.

        d) Prostitution is legal in Germany. Illegal in most of the US.

        e) Any moron can carry a gun in the US. German gun laws are very restrictive.

        f) There is no issue with nakedness on public beaches in Germany.

        g) There is no issue with nakedness on TV in Germany.

        h) There is no issue with nakedness in printed form in public places. (It is usually too cold for actual nakedness in public places. But there is no law against that either - unless a public disturbance is caused, by a flasher, for example)

        The list goes on. On the whole, I prefer the US which is why I moved here a while back. But the statement that the US is more free than other countries requires some qualifiers.

    • I think most of the germans (government officials included) understood that to prevent anything similar to the 3rd reich, they have to secure the peoples ability to communicate their ideas no matter if somebody likes them or not.



      For the german government it is far more important to protect the german people and companies from being spied at by competitors or foreign governments than to keep the hypothetical ability to spy on their own people. something that would never get through anyways. privacy is a very important point for german courts and media.

      • I think most of the germans (government officials included) understood that to prevent anything similar to the 3rd reich, they have to secure the peoples ability to communicate their ideas no matter if somebody likes them or not.

        Youre right, the Germans do want to prevent a Third (Fourth?) Reich from happening again. But theyve tried to do this by, um, banning Nazi-related speech or expression (as has France and many other countries, remember the Yahoo case?). Therefore I doubt that they believe that they have to secure the peoples ability to communicate their ideas no matter if somebody likes them or not after all, encryption is only going to help spread Nazi literature, not hinder it. Maybe this will show them how rediculous censorship laws are; people can already freely get Nazi literature, laws or not, now theyll be able to do so and completely evade the government.

    • Re:Hmmm... Germany is looking better and better... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I dont think that the main reason for this state-sponsored encryption project here in Germany is that our politicians are "nicer" or more concerned about our rights (although one must admit that "big brother" is far less powerful compared to, lets say the UK...). What the German Government fears is espionage like Echelon etc. A lot of people in the US seem to forget or dont know, that a lot of german companies are leaders in their field. Daimler (-Chrysler) is by no means the most important one. Take the pharmaceutical / chemical industry for example, the fact that world leaders like Bayer, Boehringer, Hoechst etc with hundreds of thousands of employees worldwide have an ".Inc" at the end of their name (in the US), shouldnt disguise the fact that these are german companies. Same thing with the optical industry: the optical systems in the really large terrestrial observatories and even in the HUBBLE are german. Or Siemens, which is very big in (micro-) electronics and has the biggest market share in the mobile telephone market in important markets like Asia and there especially China. German companies lose tens of billions of dollars worth of contracts every year to foreign companies because of espionage. Thats the main reason for pushing (open source!, so theoretically no back door, I think they are really sincere) cryptography and banning M$ Products from goverment use (up to now, only the servers are switched to Linux. But Im sure that the desktops will follow in a few years).
    • Being from Germany, maybe I can describe my perceptions of the "local angle" here.

      The German Government is likely less altruistic than people suspect here. The danger is clearly for German/European businesses being spied upon by you-know-who.

      If you read the original release, you'll notice (near the bottom) the initiative is by the ministry of economics. They are trying to create awareness for IT security in the German corporate environment.

      Maybe German politicians figured out that criminals (political radicals, organized crime, etc.) are already using crypto, so they have little to lose by having businesses adopt crypto on a large scale...

      Your mileage may vary, just my 0.02, yadda yadda...

    • Re:Hmmm... Germany is looking better and better... (Score:5, Informative)

      by __past__ ( 542467 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @03:15PM (#3177408)
      I am an "english speaking German reading /.", so i'll bite...

      First, they aren't "moving to OSS for all government". The Bundestag will use Linux as servers (including authentication etc.), while the clients will get WinXP. Other federal institutions do pretty much what they want to.

      Second, the german government does most certainly not care so much about civil rights as you may think. Especially after 9/11 (and yes, I know the WTC wasn't exactly a german institution, but most germans seem to have forgot) there was quite a great backslash in civil rights, especially regarding privacy.

      For example, a few days after, the minister of inner affairs (?) Otto Schily proposed that police should have the right to know about any of your banking transactions. Also, they started the "Rasterfahndung", meaning that they would get all information about "suspect" persons - mostly muslimic students - from all kinds of sources, including their universities, power suppliers, post offices etc. Of course, some people noticed that this was unconstitutional, but well, who cares...

      Another incident was some guy proposing to force ISPs to block certain sites, which some ISPs promply did (including some universities), althoug the guy proposing it did not have any authority to force it.

      Even before, there's a long record of not-so-privacy-respecting incidents. One of the funnier ones was a law that tried to force ISPs to keep every piece of data their customers sent and recieved for IIRC 7 years, while of course guaranteeing confidentality when passing over this data to the police. Of course, the ISPs protested, if only because of the costs of keeping such an amount of data.

      It's hard to compare the situation between two countries, scince most people just know one of them good enough, but germany if definitely not a civil rights paradise.

      • Anybody who thinks Germany is a bastion of freedom should try having a child by a German woman while living there, and then moving to the United States.

        There's a very good chance your children won't be allowed to come with you, even if your wife does.
      • a law that tried to force ISPs to keep every piece of data their customers sent and recieved for IIRC 7 years

        You're referring to data retention laws. It's an EU-wide thing. NCIS (UK crime intel) stole a march [cryptome.org] on everyone. They want to retain records of communication not the communication itself. The supposed reasons are for establishing alibis(yeah right), etc., as this applies to GSM location data too.

        After 911 there was a proposal levelled at the EU parliament, can't find the link.

    • I spent over a month in Germany last year, working at a customer site.

      The Germans generally (at least the young to middle aged ones) are mostly tech savvy, have a clue about politics, and actually care.

      Perhaps their government reflects the population?

      Or maybe it's the beer. Yeah. Beer...Munchen ROCKS.
      • The Germans generally (at least the young to middle aged ones) are mostly tech savvy, have a clue about politics, and actually care.

        Would you mind telling where you've been exactly, so I can move there? (Or could it be that people slashdotters meet working at a customer site could be more tech savy then the avarage?)

        Munchen ROCKS.
        Ick - forget what I said about moving. I'll just drink beer and stay where I am :)
    • Unfortunately they didn't throw out all of Windows. In fact it was quite a small move to Linux. They just decided to put Linux on all 150 server machines of the Bundestag (the german parliament and all attached facilities). The approx. 1000 desktop machines will be upgraded to Windows XP next year. But apparently it was a quite close decision to keep Windows on the desktops and mostly only because it was feared that some users would not get along with the new environment and and thus require more support resources (IT staff that is) than are available.

      PGP and other free encryption software is sponsored by Germany for a couple of years now (I think PGP sponsoring started about 6 years ago).
      Privacy is sort of a holy thing to us germans. There are a lot of laws protecting privacy.
      For example in every goverment institution there has to be someone responsible for the protection of the privacy of the citizens (Most goverment institutions have access to huge amounts of citizen data of course and this guy has to make sure that this data is not misused).
      There are also strong laws requiring companies not to misuse, distribute or sell customer information without your consent...

      Unfortunately software patents are a completely other matter. The situation isn't as bad as in the US but the lobby isn't sleeping here either.
      The lobby is trying to get the European Parliament and Senate to adopt and pass a law implementing software patents and stricter copyright laws. A law passed by the European parliament has then to be implemented in every single European country :-(
      But as it seems France is starting to oppose this law and Germany isn't that much backing it up also - there is hope yet.

      THE CATCH IS (here I can only speak of Germany not of Europe)...
      The Unions are too strong in Germany. That alone is not nessecarily a bad thing but unfortunately the unions are very conservative and unwilling to move also!!!
      They have sort of a dogma which says sort of "force the employee to work less long so the companies are forced to employ more people and thus battle unemployment". In the metal working branch (cars and so on) there is the 37,5 hour week and they are aiming for 35h (but with higher salaries of course).
      They say that the companies make good profits every year and thus have the money to do so - of course not looking at the global picture where there are foreign companies making even bigger profits.
      The worst is that they fight againt every attempt to make the job market more flexible. The basic things like tying part of the salary to the annual performance of the company and things like that.
      The are so-called (badly translated) blancket-coverage-tariff-treaties requiring every company affected by the one of the unions to pay the same for a certain type of employee - and allowing NEARLY NO flexibility if one of these companies is currently in bad shape...
      Also you cannot "hire and fire" but that I consider generally a good thing as it forces companies to think about business models and strategies. A manager who messed up cannot just cut costs and give the impression of "actively doing something" about the problems by just fireing of 20% of the employees. (This is one of the badest habits I know of in the US - one which might crush more companies that it rescues)

      Now imagine the IT department of BMW (i.e. metal working union) where the union tries to get everybody to work no more that 37,5 hours...
      Of course this is not happening (outsource the IT and it's not metal working anymore) but this doesn't say that the unions are not trying...

      Also there are high social taxes on the salary of every employee (part is deducted directly from the salary, part is to be payed by the employer for every employee).
      Generally the social net is a good thing but it's current structure is outdated and requires too much money for too very/bad results. There is NO "quality assurance" for the social work of the department of employment. Their job is to find available jobs for unemployed people and/or help them learn and qualify for new jobs.
      And this they do very badly (and with high costs) at the moment...

      So it's like everywhere - some things are much better and some are much worse. I personally wouldn't want to work (or more important live) in the US for more than a few years - (I had my experiences in working in "the Valley", thank you).
      On the other side this is most likely true for Americans working in Europe, too...

      ... Just my ten-thousand bits ...

    • Re:Hmmm... Germany is looking better and better... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Get Behind the Mule ( 61986 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @05:37PM (#3177927)
      I know there are some english speaking Germans reading /. Enlighten us, please...


      Would you settle for an American who has lived in Germany for over fifteen years?

      I have to agree with an earlier poster who suggested that by and large, German citizens are better educated and far and away more interested in politics and civil rights issues than Americans are. Hate to have to say that about my countrymen, but it's true. And ultimately, it's history that's responsible for that. Germans only have to look back one generation to see a time when they abandoned all respect for freedom, and it brought on unparalleled disaster. As a result, very many Germans today have a strong sense of responsibility to history that requires their active interest in politics and civil rights. Unfortunately, I miss this sense of duty among too many people in the US.

      And another issue is simply fact that weak encryption and weak privacy policy is largely an interest of the United States, and hardly any one else shares the interest. It is widely suspected that American spooks are monitoring communications in countries like Germany, and they don't like it. Naturally, this kind of policy is precisely what they can and should do about it.

      Having said all that, I must add that there are some laws and ideas I find very weird, especially concerning freedom of speech. The most astounding of all: You can prosecuted in Germany for insulting someone! You can criticize someone as sharply as you like, but if you utter something unconstructive such as "You're an asshole," you can be taken to court.

      What's worse is that the penalty's are more severe if the insult is directed at a civil servant, such as a policeman or a bureaucrat.

      I could rant on about this for a few more pages, but I think I'll just leave it there.

  • Another CD (Score:2, Informative)

    by Tomcat666 ( 210775 )
    The Ministry for Security and Information Technology has another CD on their CeBIT stand - and for free (I guess "as in beer") order. I don't know if that's the same CD, but this one is about security in Internet/eMail, too.

    Here's the link from the BSI [www.bsi.de]: http://www.bsi.de/presse/aktuell/sich_cd.htm [www.bsi.de].
  • I hope the rest of Europe follows in their footsteps. All w need now is an end to the EU's version of the Sonny Bongo Copyright act and there may just be a danger that we'll have a sensible stance on this.
  • This seems like a great idea to me.
    It is all nice to have free software and manuals to encourage unsophisticated users to learn and try out encryption.

    I can always bounce new stuf off friends (or other non users on my computer with a test account). But the average lay person probaly can't.

    I'm glad that some projects are doing more to help make the accessible, crypto is only going to become more usefull with more people are using it.
  • This article made me laugh as I thought of the fact that one of the main reasons the allies in WW II were able to decript and read Enigma traffic was that the Nazis were convinced that it was unbreakable. Germany is learning a lesson from history and going with a reviewable protocol and implementation, it would seem. Then again, human factors played an important role in breaking Enigma, and I would figure similar poor use of even modern cryptography could lead folks of an intellect similar to those who broke enigma to break selected PGP, GnuPP traffic.

    That also makes me wanna quote Vizzini from the Princess Bride: "Inconceivable". I wonder if the German high command ever had that thought.

    Man Encryption -> Nazis -> Princess Bride. I didn't get enough sleep.
  • From the translation:
    The GPA - Source texts can download you here.
    The "you" was actually a link! There I was thinking I was a sentient being, when all I am is gpa-0.5.0.tar.gz. Oh well. Can someone out there untar me?

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