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Security

War Driving With The Kids 133

Posted by Hemos from the wonderful-way-to-spend-a-vacation dept.
burntfungus writes "War Driving on Vacation with your kids. A drive from Los Angeles to San Luis Obispo's Gum Alley (yes, it's bubble gum on the wall), then on to San Francisco. Hundreds of 802.11b Access points available for mapping with Netstumbler. Some in the middle of nowhere."
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War Driving With The Kids More

War Driving With The Kids

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  • Security Question (Score:3, Interesting)

    by utdpenguin ( 413984 ) <[moc.kcirdnek] [ta] [nhoj]> on Thursday December 06, 2001 @09:56AM (#2664572) Homepage
    Just something that occurs to me, but if it literaly so easy to get into a company's network, can they really be said to have any expectation of privacy? If you shout something outloud in public you have none, it's perfectly legal for anyone to overhear you and act however they wish on that info. Is this significantly different?

    • Re:Security Question (Score:4, Insightful)

      by mikey504 ( 464225 ) on Thursday December 06, 2001 @10:41AM (#2664713)
      Just because it is easy doesn't mean it is legal. I am not a lawyer, but I believe the Electronic Communicastions Privacy Act (http://floridalawfirm.com/privacy.html) expressly prohibits the "interception and disclosure" of various forms of electronic communications.

      It is against the law to eavesdrop on phone communications, for example, with a scanner. Since +/- 1994 scanner manufacturers have been forced to modify their scanners to skip the frequency ranges commonly populated by cellular telephone traffic.

      Also, I believe the law differentiates between snooping an analog signal and snooping a digital one because it could be argued that this signal is "scrambled or encrypted".

      Since you need (more) specialized equipment to decode the digital signal and the setup is nontrivial for most folks, you would have a tough time claiming you "accidentally" intercepted LAN traffic from XYZ Corp.

      Of course that may not help them once their sensitive information has been leaked to the press or the competition, but it would be naieve to think that you wouldn't be prosecuted if you were caught.
      • Ok, but look at it this way. You have you own wireless network. Your all set up for it. Your a windows newby and someone has set it up automaticaly to connect ot whatever network is available. The building next door also has a network. Given the large precentage of peopel who have a computer but no clue how to use it, it wont be long, if it hasnt happened already, until people are simply ont he wrong network, innocently enough. This would be the equivalent not of using a scanner but of having the guy on the cell phone, next tabel over at a restaruant, yelling so loud you can't help but overhear without taking measures yourself to insure his privacy.

        • Point taken, but this is a long way from cruising around in the family geek wagon scanning for vulnerable networks.

          If two companies just happened to set up overlapping networks and they both used the default key or same password for encryption, then it could be argued that this communication was "readily accesible to the general public", as descirbed in the act:

          g) It shall not be unlawful under this chapter or chapter 121
          of this title for any person -

          (i) to intercept or access an electronic
          communication made through an electronic communication system
          that is configured so that such electronic communication is
          readily accessible to the general public;

          But once you have loaded up your favorite sniffing program and started exploiting weaknesses in the 802.11b implementation, I think whatever sympathy the court may have had is going to vaporize.
          • Your right that there is a difference between active and passive measures.


            However there also remains some practical considerations. For example, say I leave my car unlocked and the keys in the ignition. Surprise, surprise, in the morning its not there. When I o to the cops they are going to tell me its my own damn fault for making it so easy. Sure, it's still a crime to steal my car, but I'm also asking for it.


            I wonder if I do take advantage of one of these networks, get proprietary information, if the cops will take a similar attitude as in the car analogy. And I also wonder if its becasue the ocmpany is bigger and richer.


            The they had it coming to them defense doesn't jsutify illegal actions, but I also don't have much sympathy for a company that gets ripped of because they left the front door open.

            • Re:Security Question (Score:2, Interesting)

              by Nematode ( 197503 )
              However there also remains some practical considerations. For example, say I leave my car unlocked and the keys in the ignition. Surprise, surprise, in the morning its not there. When I o to the cops they are going to tell me its my own damn fault for making it so easy. Sure, it's still a crime to steal my car, but I'm also asking for it.
              Actually, the cops may say that, but then they will file a stolen car report, and then treat your case like any other stolen car. I've seen it happen before, and just this week that same situation occurred in my town. Guy left his keys in while he ran into a pharmacy, came out to see the car being driven away. The cops put out an APB, found the car, and spent the next 30 minutes chasing it.

              Yes, your actions can make you more or less likely to be victimized by a crime. This does not absolve the criminal, nor does it keep you from being protected by the law. Slashdot posters may insult you, and the cops may roll their eyes and lecture you, but they're still obliged to treat your case like the rest.

              Next time you're arrested for walking into someone's house and burglarizing them, see how far you get by arguing that their door was wide open....
              • Yes, they will go through the motions and maybe, once in a blue moon find your car. But if you think for a second your case is anywhere but at hte bottom of their list your insane. Wherass, If I break intoa network I'm like as not to find the fbi at my door and me becomeing a slashdot martyr :)

        • Re:Security Question (Score:3, Insightful)

          by stripes ( 3681 )
          You have you own wireless network. Your all set up for it. Your a windows newby and someone has set it up automaticaly to connect ot whatever network is available. The building next door also has a network. Given the large precentage of peopel who have a computer but no clue how to use it, it wont be long, if it hasnt happened already, until people are simply ont he wrong network, innocently enough

          Sure, I can see someone innocently turning on their laptop and using someone else's bandwidth to fetch email and surf the web, but that is a far cry from sniffing the other people's traffic!

          • So.

            Is it illegal, then, to listen to other peoples' shouted conversations in public places? What if it's an interesting conversation, and you crane your neck in to hear more of it? What if it proves sufficiently enticing to you that you choose to join in with your own anecdotes?

            Does it make a difference if the shouting consists of pressure waves in air (sound) or electromagnetic radiation (RF)?

            There is not a more public slice of spectrum than the 2.4GHz band used by 802.11b.

            As a user of a medium-range (several miles) 802.11b link, by which I'm accessing Slashdot right now, I'm acutely aware of this. Anything I don't want to say in public is treated, at least, with SSH before it hits the air.
            • Is it illegal, then, to listen to other peoples' shouted conversations in public places? What if it's an interesting conversation, and you crane your neck in to hear more of it? What if it proves sufficiently enticing to you that you choose to join in with your own anecdotes?

              I don't think it is illegal, but I don't know for sure. I would be supprised if it were...

              Does it make a difference if the shouting consists of pressure waves in air (sound) or electromagnetic radiation (RF)?

              Should it? No, I don't think so. Does it? Yes. In the USA at least it is illegal to spy on cordless phone usage (unless you have a wiretap warrent, or unless the anti-terroism act changed this). That is pretty damm public. similar for cell phones. Neither are as well encoded as 802.11 with WEP.

              For the most part geeks, nerds, and engenears do not make laws, or intrepret them. Lawyers, ex-lawyers, and judges do. Mostly. As a geek once in a while you might get to advise lawmakers, or even appear before a judge as a witness, but that's pretty much it.

              There is not a more public slice of spectrum than the 2.4GHz band used by 802.11b.

              I think you left the visable light part out. And there are laws dealing with that. Mostly that if it is visable from your property or public property you can take a picture of it (unless it is child porn, I asume, or a milatary secret, maybe), but you can't sell the picture for profit in many cases (in others you can). You can look on photo.net for more detail.

              As a user of a medium-range (several miles) 802.11b link, by which I'm accessing Slashdot right now, I'm acutely aware of this. Anything I don't want to say in public is treated, at least, with SSH before it hits the air.

              That is a good idea since SSH can keep the Bad Thing from happening, while laws can only punish those who did the Bad Thing (and frequently those who are doing a Harmless Thing, at least Harmless To Others).

              Plus as far as I know there have been no cases about this, so we don't know how it will turn out.

        • Man, I normally don't do this, but "you're" means "you are", your mean "you" in the possessive sense.


        • I used to do tech support for Apple Computer's laser printers. One time I was helping a fellow troubleshoot why his laserprinter wasn't printing even though he wasn't receiving any errors on his computer. I was walking him through the software-side of the problem and had him check the 'setup' in the chooser. The printer was broadcasting fine. I asked him to shut off the printer. He did and it still showed up in the chooser. Hmmm. So then I asked him how he was connecting to the printer. Turned out that he was in some apartment building that had an ethernet network running through the whole place. Then it all clicked. He was printing to some other guy's printer in the building. Apparently some of the stuff he had been printing during the course of the week had been of a 'sensitive' nature because he got extremely concerned and got off the phone quick so he could go find that printer...


          Like you suggest, with wireless networking, this type of thing is going to happen more frequently...
      • but thats tricky because you are not intercepting, those airwaves are hitting your laptop, therefore your property. Its like that satelite case. satelite tv companies were bitching that people were just buying the dish and not buying the service. so they were enforced to encrypt the signal cause the govt said hey, its in the open air thats your prob
        • Also, unlike with a scanner, you computer needs to be set up to scan those frequencies as part of its normal operation on your network. Imagine if you cell phone started picking up other's conversations. Sure, you still have to hold it to your ear to listen in, but thats what your suppsoed to do with the phone in the first place.

        • but thats tricky because you are not intercepting, those airwaves are hitting your laptop, therefore your property.

          The US law, at least, has long distinguished between a "directed transmission" and a "broadcast transmission", the distinction being whether it was intended for a particular listener (or set of listeners) versus anyone who tuned in.

          Basic rule was that you could listen to a directed transmission but couldn't disclose it further. That was later modified with the advent of subscription TV in microwave bands, cellular phones, and so on.

          Its like that satelite case. satelite tv companies were bitching that people were just buying the dish and not buying the service. so they were enforced to encrypt the signal cause the govt said hey, its in the open air thats your prob

          Yep.

          But there's a maze of laws and regulations now so your mileage may vary from the days of the Big Ugly Dish.

          I understand your position matches that of the Canadian government with respect to Canadians intercepting and decrypting scrambled satellite subscription services - especially ones where subscriptions are not available to Canadians. B-)
    • I think it is different. I would say a relavitely unsecure wireless network is more like you're in your home with the door closed, but you haven't locked the door. You still have an expectation of privacy inside your home, even if it is easy for someone to break into it.
      • But in this case your living room is in the middle of a public highway, or, worse, extruding into someone else's office.

        I'm not making a definate argument, but it does seem to me that a strong one could be made here.

    • Re:Security Question (Score:3, Interesting)

      by ZoneGray ( 168419 )
      More to the point... if you connect to an unsecured network, you're a damned fool if you expect any privacy... regardless of what the law says. As soon as you check your e-mail through a non-WEP connection, anybody in the neighborhood can have your POP password. I've often wondered what it would be like to set up an AP with an SSID of "public", and run tcpdump on what comes through....
  • California is pretty densely populated and has these fine things along the coast. What are you going to do between Bakersfield and Mohave? Or north to Lone Pine? Even my AM/FM station scanning at points cycled through two passes without so much as a fuzzy infomercial. Places like Nebraska, Iowa, and western Kansas... We need something more, what could fill these voids?

  • ...on _vacation with your kids_ (Score:5, Funny)

    by heyetv ( 248750 ) on Thursday December 06, 2001 @10:02AM (#2664588)

    yet again, slashdot defines "geek".

  • Huh? (Score:3, Flamebait)

    by webword ( 82711 ) on Thursday December 06, 2001 @10:02AM (#2664592) Homepage
    Is it just me or did this posting make no sense. Driving, Bubble Gum, Vacations, War, 802.11b, and so forth. Do I have to actually click on the links to figure it out?
    • In other news, the new Slash Content Generator [bbspot.com] is tested on the main slashdot site.

      C'mon. You gotta admit at least some of these stories seem like they were pulled from that site :-)

    • Re:Huh? (Score:3, Informative)

      by Rob Parkhill ( 1444 )
      Well, for those looking for a translation without actually reading the story...

      "War Driving" refers to the practice of driving around town with a laptop and an 802.11b car looking for and mapping the location of wirelass access points. A GPS is helpful to let you know where you are.

      I have no idea where the name "War Driving" came from, though. "Wirelss Access Recon" perhaps? :-)

      • Re:Huh? (Score:5, Informative)

        by Zocalo ( 252965 ) on Thursday December 06, 2001 @10:45AM (#2664729) Homepage
        I have no idea where the name "War Driving" came from, though.

        It's a corruption of "War Dialling", which is the brute force approach of finding modems to compromise by sequentially dialling all the telephone numbers in a range. Used most effectively in the film Wargames [imdb.com] since I guess you haven't seen it.

        • D'oh! I can't believe I missed that connection. It's been far too many years since I've seen War Games, or even played with a modem (ahhh, gotta love the widely available, cheap, reliable high speed net access in Canada :-)
      • I have no idea where the name "War Driving" came from, though.

        I assume it's derived from "War Dialing" -- dialing phone numbers sequentially in search for a modem tone, practiced by phreaks in the 70's and 80's.
      • I have no idea where the name "War Driving" came from, though.

        Damn. Now I'm going to have to date myself.

        "War driving" probably derives from "War dialing", the practice used in the days of BBSs and earlier (remember modems?) to locate systems with unpublished modems on open lines. A "war dialer [mcgill.ca]" was a program that dialed all numbers in an exchange, and noted which numbers were voice, which were fax and which were data. Hence, driving around, looking for unpublished, open networks has been dubbed "war driving".

      • I think it's a sad state of affairs when people don't know the basic history of computers (or at least what I grew up with). I have been made to feel old now for the second time in a day because earlier today someone didn't know what telix was, and now people don't know what war dialing is (to know the etymology of war driving).

        More people should comprehensively read the Jargon File [tuxedo.org].
      • I have no idea where the name "War Driving" came from, though. "Wirelss Access Recon" perhaps? :-)

        War Driving is an obvious reference to the practice of War Dialing, which was dialing every phone number in an area and recording the ones with a Modem attached.

        The classic movie WarGames [imdb.com] begins with Matthew Broderick's character arriving home from school and printing the new list of "targets" that his computer found while he was away (or was it while he was asleep?)

      • Heh.

        I am amused. One question, three nearly identical answers. :)

        Two of which quote the Jargon File.
      • Holy Crap,
        for once i thought I was being useful and explaining something I thought I understood. But apparently it was so obvious that 5 (Five !!) others beat me to the reply.

      • Re:Huh? (Score:1)

        by JonS ( 23678 )
        It's just a corruption of "war dialling".

        If you don't understand that one, then go and rent Wargames :-)
  • I thought it was going to be a story about Afghan goat herders ;-)

  • IN the ocean? (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    It was good to see somebody got so mad at their access point that they decided to throw them into the Pacific.
  • Anyone know of a source for magnet mount (like on my roof of the car) 802.11b external antennas?

  • Gum Wall??? (Score:3, Funny)

    by the_argent ( 28326 ) on Thursday December 06, 2001 @10:12AM (#2664613) Homepage
    Ewww..
    You took your kids to what looks to be a narrow, gum plastered alley for vacation?
    What's next the world's largest abattoir?

    argent
    • Yeah... disgusting eh? If you get a really nice parking spot down town (small lot right next to the 2 main roads), then the alley is the shortest distance to "downtown".

      The guy could have picked much better places to grab some food though.

      I was hoping to find the guy drove by the house of some people I know down there... looks like he just missed them... I'm sure they are running 802.11 :)

      Brian Macy
    • The Boll Weevil Monument and Cranberry World, no doubt...

    • Re:Gum Wall, It Smells good too!! (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      It's true, gum all the way up the wall. They had to put a light up because of the things that happened at night so close to all the bars, yes those and the you and your girlfrend/drunken date at 2am kind. The part most miss from the photos is the true scratch'n sniff smell power of it all (come to think of it no scratching required).heh enjoy
      watching where i step in Slo

    • Someday, a cultural archeologist is going to study the strata of gum layers on the SLO gum wall. Now /that's/ creepy.

      "Proud contributer to the SLO Bubble Gum Alley"

  • This makes always good news. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by leuk_he ( 194174 ) on Thursday December 06, 2001 @10:13AM (#2664616) Homepage Journal
    It always makes good media to (re)post about broken wireless networks [computable.nl] that could be accessed from anywhere. Lots of dead tree magazines are writing about this.

    Who says he is not detecting freely accesable networks that are made to be public. /. reported about this part [bawug.org] my times before. [slashdot.org]
    • Who says he is not detecting freely accesable networks that are made to be public

      He almost certainly was detecting them, the point is made about every Starbuck's in the article, but even if the networks are for public access, they probably should have more restrictive access and do not. After all, I'm sure that Starbuck's would prefer you to buy a coffee and danish to "pay" for your use of their public connection, rather than sit outside in your car.

      Also, having taken a more leisurely cruise around likely candidate sites for 802.11b compromises (hi-tech business parks) I can state for a fact that the majority of wireless networks are begging to be compromised by someone with a darker shade of hat than mine... One other statistic I drew was that the bulk of these unsecure networks are running under NT, which explains a lot.

      • Re:This makes always good news. (Score:4, Interesting)

        by leuk_he ( 194174 ) on Thursday December 06, 2001 @10:55AM (#2664780) Homepage Journal
        starbuck.

        I was not aware of the starbuck network. google turned up this [samba.org]. It states you have to logon (and pay ) to use their network. I suppose the car is also good for them if you have to pay anyway.

        By the way: I was disappointed when i went on vacation to california this summer about public internet access. I found:
        -public libraries: 3 out of 4 times there was a waiting list. (reserved days ahead)
        -something at a gas station in palm springs.
        1 (1) internet cafee at the las vegas strip.

        A friend went to peru and in almost every small village they had public (not free) access.

        • A friend went to peru and in almost every small village they had public (not free) access.

          The same is true of the countries I've visited. I imagine part of the reason is that a higher percentage of people here in the US already pay for access at home and so are less likely to pay again to access the net while out shopping.

          I know that I would not pay $2/min or whatever starbucks charges. I'll go there with friends or even to read a book - but I'll check my mail at home.

          This sentiment is probably common and makes it less profitable to operate public internet access in the US.
          • $2/min

            :-)

            I don't know the price there, but the same people who "wired" many Starbucks also did a lot of airports (the kind with planes, not the Apple kind). Those run $6 to $11 for a full day's access. Or at least they did a few months ago, times are hard, they may have gone out of business for all I know.

            • Those run $6 to $11 for a full day's access.

              That sounds more reasonable. I actually had no idea how much it costs. The only time I was in an internet cafe was in Hong Kong and I don't remember what I paid.

              I saw kids in Korea playing Diablo in cafes. I guess there's no way they could've afforded that at an hourly rate.
              • I was recently in S. Korea visiting a relative and got a chance to visit a couple of the PC Bongs in Seoul and Anjanri(sp?). Cost about 800 Won an hour, which was about $.65. Most of the PCs available were Celerons running Win98 SE. The really cool thing was that you could consume your six pack of Hite (or OB) and a pack of smokes while playing that game of Diablo.

                (Starcraft is incredibly popular over there. I heard at one point that a copy existed for every man, woman and child in the country)
      • Also, having taken a more leisurely cruise around likely candidate sites for 802.11b compromises (hi-tech business parks) I can state for a fact that the majority of wireless networks are begging to be compromised by someone with a darker shade of hat than mine...

        On the other hand I can state (also for a fact) that some 802.11 networks in hi-tech parks are on the outside of the company firewalls, so all you can get is free IP access to the net at large, and a chance to attack some people's laptops while they are in a meeting.

        I don't think it is all that common of a set up though, people sure do like the convenience of being inside the firewall. Too bad they like it more then being safe.

  • For those who don't know what "war driving" means (Score:5, Informative)

    by jodonn ( 516010 ) on Thursday December 06, 2001 @10:13AM (#2664617)
    like me a few minutes ago, here's [theregister.co.uk] a link to a Register article about it.

  • Netstumbler is broke, try www.webs0r.net! (Score:4, Informative)

    by punkball ( 240859 ) on Thursday December 06, 2001 @10:19AM (#2664637)
    Since netstumbler's web shat the fan you should all go check out www.webs0r.net instead. A patch to wlan and then some scripts make wireless discovery easy.

  • Sounds fun but... (Score:2, Offtopic)

    by jspectre ( 102549 )

    I'd rather be out GeoCaching [geocaching.com]. Safer, legal (well no one can arrest you for hacking at least), and there's treasure to be found!

  • Can you believe this guys running 2000 Pro on a p120 laptop???

    "The Laptop is an old Pentium 120 laptop, 80 Meg. Ram, running Windows 2000 Pro"

    And further he states that it runs quite well. What happened to bloatware???
  • Site is being naughty, MySQL database has already farted, so I grabbed the URL to the file, if anyone is interested.

    http://home.pacbell.net/mariusm/NetStumbler_0_3_ 22 .zip

  • Enough about this. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ejaytee ( 186527 ) on Thursday December 06, 2001 @10:38AM (#2664706)

    OK, this is the how-many-eth article about how 802.11b networks are poorly administered?

    We've had /. War Driving in NYC, Hoboken, Washington, Minneapolis, and, now, War Driving on vacation articles.

    I think everyone gets the point. No need to keep hunting for Yet Another Angle.

    The only thing this story adds is the amusing reference to childen and car-seats in PCI-card terms (insert and remove the children from their seats).

  • The old complaints change.. (Score:5, Funny)

    by toupsie ( 88295 ) on Thursday December 06, 2001 @10:44AM (#2664725) Homepage
    Oh great! Instead of "Are we there yet?" its now "Are we in range yet?".

    We also get.

    "Mommy, Timmy is hogging all the bandwith".

    "Don't make me come back there and pull out your Airport card, Timmy."

  • I thought I read "Driving the kids to war". Well, I'm sure that would have made for a more interesting discussion than another open wireless network.

  • 802.11 access pt (Score:5, Funny)

    by brarrr ( 99867 ) on Thursday December 06, 2001 @11:02AM (#2664817) Journal
    Crap - Here at cal poly in San luis obispo, my little airport network is going to get some freak slashdot effect and instead of everybody not seeing a site, I won't see any sites.

    On top of that there will be 50 geek cars parked infront of my house mooching bandwidth.

  • I just had my first wardriving experience (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Nerftoe ( 74385 ) on Thursday December 06, 2001 @12:12PM (#2665180)
    A couple weeks ago, I bought an Orinoco Gold access card, downloaded netstumbler [netstumbler.com], and had my homemade Pringles antenna [oreillynet.com] ready to go.

    The wife and I got out last Sunday to see if I could find any access points. We live a few files from Indianapolis, so I figured we would have to go downtown to find any access points. NOT TRUE! Many of the APs we found were on personal home networks. Every time we would pass an apartment complex.. blip!.. an AP or two would show up. Where they encrypted? Heh, no. We made one loop through downtown Indy and came back to our house and we found 40 access points. 5 were encypted.

    So, we found one near a Mr. D's (grocery store). We stopped in the parking lot, I set up my Pringles antenna, and browsed the web via someone's @home connection. Really cool!

    You can imagine the looks that I received when passersby saw me scanning back and forth with a pringles antenna, wires coming out of it, and a laptop on my lap. Anyway, wardriving is fun for the whole family. It's kinda like Geocaching [geocaching.com], but quite a bit easier. :)
  • On the second map there, I see EAFB... I really have to wonder if it was AP-less, or if he just didn't go by there....

    Anyone in that area, and curious enough to risk getting shot? ;)
  • Use a quality 6db omnidirectional attached to a 1-watt 2.4 gig amp. This will give you max legal transmit power taking ERP into consideration. Make sure to get an amp with a high receive gain as well, as that is far more important. A 1 watt amp with ~10db receive gain can be had for around $500 at most places that sell serious wireless gear. winncom.com and hyperlink.com are two that come to mind.
  • What I want to know is how long until some industrous folks start driving around with an access point to really screw us up...
  • Hrmm, it is funny because I can "War Drive" in the mid-west. That shouldn't happen. ;)
  • It should be noted that war driving will come up with a lot more "open" access points than are actually open.

    Savvy companies now put their 802.11b links on the OUTSIDE of the firewall, and require their users to use an encrypted tunnel (ssh, VPN, etc.) to get to the LAN.

    (Actually, it's usually a separate "outside" from the general internet, so they can also control forwarding of packets between the wireless users and the rest of the net. If they don't feel like providing a free access port for passers-by they can cut it off. The company users can work through a proxy at the other end of their tunnel.)
  • Gee, I covered this yesterday over at GuerrillaNews [guerrillanews.org]. Normally I find headlines from Slashdot... I guess y'all are falling behind. :)
  • I know it's kind of late, but here is a great link to a study on war driving that is _much_ more detailed than the original article:

    [note: .pdf format]
    http://www.dis.org/filez/openlans.pdf [dis.org]

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