
War Driving With The Kids 133
burntfungus writes "War Driving on Vacation with your kids. A drive from Los Angeles to San Luis Obispo's Gum Alley (yes, it's bubble gum on the wall), then on to San Francisco. Hundreds of 802.11b Access points available for mapping with Netstumbler. Some in the middle of nowhere."
Security Question (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Security Question (Score:2)
;)
Re:OT - Fix your sig. (Score:1)
Re:Security Question (Score:1)
Re:Security Question (Score:4, Insightful)
It is against the law to eavesdrop on phone communications, for example, with a scanner. Since +/- 1994 scanner manufacturers have been forced to modify their scanners to skip the frequency ranges commonly populated by cellular telephone traffic.
Also, I believe the law differentiates between snooping an analog signal and snooping a digital one because it could be argued that this signal is "scrambled or encrypted".
Since you need (more) specialized equipment to decode the digital signal and the setup is nontrivial for most folks, you would have a tough time claiming you "accidentally" intercepted LAN traffic from XYZ Corp.
Of course that may not help them once their sensitive information has been leaked to the press or the competition, but it would be naieve to think that you wouldn't be prosecuted if you were caught.
Re:Security Question (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Security Question (Score:1)
If two companies just happened to set up overlapping networks and they both used the default key or same password for encryption, then it could be argued that this communication was "readily accesible to the general public", as descirbed in the act:
g) It shall not be unlawful under this chapter or chapter 121
of this title for any person -
(i) to intercept or access an electronic
communication made through an electronic communication system
that is configured so that such electronic communication is
readily accessible to the general public;
But once you have loaded up your favorite sniffing program and started exploiting weaknesses in the 802.11b implementation, I think whatever sympathy the court may have had is going to vaporize.
Re:Security Question (Score:1)
However there also remains some practical considerations. For example, say I leave my car unlocked and the keys in the ignition. Surprise, surprise, in the morning its not there. When I o to the cops they are going to tell me its my own damn fault for making it so easy. Sure, it's still a crime to steal my car, but I'm also asking for it.
I wonder if I do take advantage of one of these networks, get proprietary information, if the cops will take a similar attitude as in the car analogy. And I also wonder if its becasue the ocmpany is bigger and richer.
The they had it coming to them defense doesn't jsutify illegal actions, but I also don't have much sympathy for a company that gets ripped of because they left the front door open.
Re:Security Question (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes, your actions can make you more or less likely to be victimized by a crime. This does not absolve the criminal, nor does it keep you from being protected by the law. Slashdot posters may insult you, and the cops may roll their eyes and lecture you, but they're still obliged to treat your case like the rest.
Next time you're arrested for walking into someone's house and burglarizing them, see how far you get by arguing that their door was wide open....
Re:Security Question (Score:1)
Re:Security Question (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, I can see someone innocently turning on their laptop and using someone else's bandwidth to fetch email and surf the web, but that is a far cry from sniffing the other people's traffic!
Re:Security Question (Score:2)
Is it illegal, then, to listen to other peoples' shouted conversations in public places? What if it's an interesting conversation, and you crane your neck in to hear more of it? What if it proves sufficiently enticing to you that you choose to join in with your own anecdotes?
Does it make a difference if the shouting consists of pressure waves in air (sound) or electromagnetic radiation (RF)?
There is not a more public slice of spectrum than the 2.4GHz band used by 802.11b.
As a user of a medium-range (several miles) 802.11b link, by which I'm accessing Slashdot right now, I'm acutely aware of this. Anything I don't want to say in public is treated, at least, with SSH before it hits the air.
Re:Security Question (Score:2)
I don't think it is illegal, but I don't know for sure. I would be supprised if it were...
Should it? No, I don't think so. Does it? Yes. In the USA at least it is illegal to spy on cordless phone usage (unless you have a wiretap warrent, or unless the anti-terroism act changed this). That is pretty damm public. similar for cell phones. Neither are as well encoded as 802.11 with WEP.
For the most part geeks, nerds, and engenears do not make laws, or intrepret them. Lawyers, ex-lawyers, and judges do. Mostly. As a geek once in a while you might get to advise lawmakers, or even appear before a judge as a witness, but that's pretty much it.
I think you left the visable light part out. And there are laws dealing with that. Mostly that if it is visable from your property or public property you can take a picture of it (unless it is child porn, I asume, or a milatary secret, maybe), but you can't sell the picture for profit in many cases (in others you can). You can look on photo.net for more detail.
That is a good idea since SSH can keep the Bad Thing from happening, while laws can only punish those who did the Bad Thing (and frequently those who are doing a Harmless Thing, at least Harmless To Others).
Plus as far as I know there have been no cases about this, so we don't know how it will turn out.
Re:Security Question (Score:1)
I saw it happen... (Score:2)
Re:Security Question (Score:1)
Re:Security Question (Score:1)
Directed Transmission (Score:2)
The US law, at least, has long distinguished between a "directed transmission" and a "broadcast transmission", the distinction being whether it was intended for a particular listener (or set of listeners) versus anyone who tuned in.
Basic rule was that you could listen to a directed transmission but couldn't disclose it further. That was later modified with the advent of subscription TV in microwave bands, cellular phones, and so on.
Its like that satelite case. satelite tv companies were bitching that people were just buying the dish and not buying the service. so they were enforced to encrypt the signal cause the govt said hey, its in the open air thats your prob
Yep.
But there's a maze of laws and regulations now so your mileage may vary from the days of the Big Ugly Dish.
I understand your position matches that of the Canadian government with respect to Canadians intercepting and decrypting scrambled satellite subscription services - especially ones where subscriptions are not available to Canadians. B-)
Re:Security Question (Score:1)
Re:Security Question (Score:1)
I'm not making a definate argument, but it does seem to me that a strong one could be made here.
Re:Security Question (Score:3, Interesting)
Okay, but... (Score:1)
Re:Okay, but... (Score:1)
Which new satellite radio thingy would that be?
Something I thought about a few years back would be broadcast digital media, i.e. like the web, only not interactive, you selected different channels for different content. Simple enough in urban areas, requiring satellite in remote areas, like north of Mohave or Death Valley.
I was keen to follow what's happening in sports and news as I putted along highway 190 (a road so remote that in November you can just pull off to the side of the road for a pee break and not worry about anyone seeing you, as you're probably with the only vehicle for 20 miles either way), nothing against the Sierra Nevada and the desert, but after a few hours a little other stimulus is welcome.
So, cycle through broadcast digital media, which would need to be fairly compact, like a ticker, but the receiver would identify the header of each item and buffer it. I think it's got potential, particularly with how limited radio and TV are, especially after seeing a minivan with built in TV for the backseat passengers.
...on _vacation with your kids_ (Score:5, Funny)
yet again, slashdot defines "geek".
Huh? (Score:3, Flamebait)
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
C'mon. You gotta admit at least some of these stories seem like they were pulled from that site
Re:Huh? (Score:3, Informative)
"War Driving" refers to the practice of driving around town with a laptop and an 802.11b car looking for and mapping the location of wirelass access points. A GPS is helpful to let you know where you are.
I have no idea where the name "War Driving" came from, though. "Wirelss Access Recon" perhaps?
Re:Huh? (Score:5, Informative)
It's a corruption of "War Dialling", which is the brute force approach of finding modems to compromise by sequentially dialling all the telephone numbers in a range. Used most effectively in the film Wargames [imdb.com] since I guess you haven't seen it.
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
I assume it's derived from "War Dialing" -- dialing phone numbers sequentially in search for a modem tone, practiced by phreaks in the 70's and 80's.
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
Damn. Now I'm going to have to date myself.
"War driving" probably derives from "War dialing", the practice used in the days of BBSs and earlier (remember modems?) to locate systems with unpublished modems on open lines. A "war dialer [mcgill.ca]" was a program that dialed all numbers in an exchange, and noted which numbers were voice, which were fax and which were data. Hence, driving around, looking for unpublished, open networks has been dubbed "war driving".
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
More people should comprehensively read the Jargon File [tuxedo.org].
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
War Driving is an obvious reference to the practice of War Dialing, which was dialing every phone number in an area and recording the ones with a Modem attached.
The classic movie WarGames [imdb.com] begins with Matthew Broderick's character arriving home from school and printing the new list of "targets" that his computer found while he was away (or was it while he was asleep?)
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
I am amused. One question, three nearly identical answers.
Two of which quote the Jargon File.
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
for once i thought I was being useful and explaining something I thought I understood. But apparently it was so obvious that 5 (Five !!) others beat me to the reply.
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
If you don't understand that one, then go and rent Wargames
Disappointed... (Score:2)
IN the ocean? (Score:1, Funny)
Re:IN the ocean? (Score:1)
War Boating (Score:1)
advanced war driving. (Score:2)
Re:advanced war driving. (Score:2, Informative)
But which antenna? (Score:1)
Gum Wall??? (Score:3, Funny)
You took your kids to what looks to be a narrow, gum plastered alley for vacation?
What's next the world's largest abattoir?
argent
Re:Gum Wall??? (Score:1)
The guy could have picked much better places to grab some food though.
I was hoping to find the guy drove by the house of some people I know down there... looks like he just missed them... I'm sure they are running 802.11
Brian Macy
Re:Gum Wall??? (Score:2)
Re:Gum Wall??? (Score:2)
Re:Gum Wall, It Smells good too!! (Score:1, Interesting)
watching where i step in Slo
Re:Gum Wall??? (Score:1)
Someday, a cultural archeologist is going to study the strata of gum layers on the SLO gum wall. Now
"Proud contributer to the SLO Bubble Gum Alley"
This makes always good news. (Score:3, Interesting)
Who says he is not detecting freely accesable networks that are made to be public.
Re:This makes always good news. (Score:3, Interesting)
He almost certainly was detecting them, the point is made about every Starbuck's in the article, but even if the networks are for public access, they probably should have more restrictive access and do not. After all, I'm sure that Starbuck's would prefer you to buy a coffee and danish to "pay" for your use of their public connection, rather than sit outside in your car.
Also, having taken a more leisurely cruise around likely candidate sites for 802.11b compromises (hi-tech business parks) I can state for a fact that the majority of wireless networks are begging to be compromised by someone with a darker shade of hat than mine... One other statistic I drew was that the bulk of these unsecure networks are running under NT, which explains a lot.
Re:This makes always good news. (Score:4, Interesting)
I was not aware of the starbuck network. google turned up this [samba.org]. It states you have to logon (and pay ) to use their network. I suppose the car is also good for them if you have to pay anyway.
By the way: I was disappointed when i went on vacation to california this summer about public internet access. I found:
-public libraries: 3 out of 4 times there was a waiting list. (reserved days ahead)
-something at a gas station in palm springs.
1 (1) internet cafee at the las vegas strip.
A friend went to peru and in almost every small village they had public (not free) access.
Re:This makes always good news. (Score:2)
The same is true of the countries I've visited. I imagine part of the reason is that a higher percentage of people here in the US already pay for access at home and so are less likely to pay again to access the net while out shopping.
I know that I would not pay $2/min or whatever starbucks charges. I'll go there with friends or even to read a book - but I'll check my mail at home.
This sentiment is probably common and makes it less profitable to operate public internet access in the US.
Re:This makes always good news. (Score:2)
:-)
I don't know the price there, but the same people who "wired" many Starbucks also did a lot of airports (the kind with planes, not the Apple kind). Those run $6 to $11 for a full day's access. Or at least they did a few months ago, times are hard, they may have gone out of business for all I know.
Re:This makes always good news. (Score:2)
That sounds more reasonable. I actually had no idea how much it costs. The only time I was in an internet cafe was in Hong Kong and I don't remember what I paid.
I saw kids in Korea playing Diablo in cafes. I guess there's no way they could've afforded that at an hourly rate.
Re:This makes always good news. (Score:1)
(Starcraft is incredibly popular over there. I heard at one point that a copy existed for every man, woman and child in the country)
Re:This makes always good news. (Score:2)
On the other hand I can state (also for a fact) that some 802.11 networks in hi-tech parks are on the outside of the company firewalls, so all you can get is free IP access to the net at large, and a chance to attack some people's laptops while they are in a meeting.
I don't think it is all that common of a set up though, people sure do like the convenience of being inside the firewall. Too bad they like it more then being safe.
For those who don't know what "war driving" means (Score:5, Informative)
Netstumbler is broke, try www.webs0r.net! (Score:4, Informative)
Sounds fun but... (Score:2, Offtopic)
I'd rather be out GeoCaching [geocaching.com]. Safer, legal (well no one can arrest you for hacking at least), and there's treasure to be found!
Re:Sounds fun but... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Sounds fun but... (Score:1)
Re:Sounds fun but... (Score:1)
Re:Sounds fun but... (Score:1)
Re:Sounds fun but... (Score:1)
What is at N 45 2.001 W 122 40.911?
On a pentium 120? (Score:1)
"The Laptop is an old Pentium 120 laptop, 80 Meg. Ram, running Windows 2000 Pro"
And further he states that it runs quite well. What happened to bloatware???
Re:On a pentium 120? (Score:1)
Re:On a pentium 120? (Score:1)
Mike
Re:On a pentium 120? (Score:1)
Heh, that's nothing. For a while I was running Windows 2000 on a P-100 laptop with 40 MB RAM.
It was usable, but barely.
Re:On a pentium 120? (Score:1)
Mirrors (Score:1)
http://home.pacbell.net/mariusm/NetStumbler_0_3
Enough about this. (Score:3, Interesting)
OK, this is the how-many-eth article about how 802.11b networks are poorly administered?
We've had
I think everyone gets the point. No need to keep hunting for Yet Another Angle.
The only thing this story adds is the amusing reference to childen and car-seats in PCI-card terms (insert and remove the children from their seats).
Re:Enough about this. (Score:2)
The old complaints change.. (Score:5, Funny)
We also get.
"Mommy, Timmy is hogging all the bandwith".
"Don't make me come back there and pull out your Airport card, Timmy."
Driving the kids to war (Score:1)
Re:Whoop de doo... been done before... (Score:1)
-Craig
802.11 access pt (Score:5, Funny)
On top of that there will be 50 geek cars parked infront of my house mooching bandwidth.
Re:802.11 access pt (Score:1)
Re:802.11 access pt (Score:5, Funny)
This is where you break out the eggs.
Re:802.11 access pt (Score:1, Troll)
I just had my first wardriving experience (Score:4, Interesting)
The wife and I got out last Sunday to see if I could find any access points. We live a few files from Indianapolis, so I figured we would have to go downtown to find any access points. NOT TRUE! Many of the APs we found were on personal home networks. Every time we would pass an apartment complex.. blip!.. an AP or two would show up. Where they encrypted? Heh, no. We made one loop through downtown Indy and came back to our house and we found 40 access points. 5 were encypted.
So, we found one near a Mr. D's (grocery store). We stopped in the parking lot, I set up my Pringles antenna, and browsed the web via someone's @home connection. Really cool!
You can imagine the looks that I received when passersby saw me scanning back and forth with a pringles antenna, wires coming out of it, and a laptop on my lap. Anyway, wardriving is fun for the whole family. It's kinda like Geocaching [geocaching.com], but quite a bit easier.
Re:I just had my first wardriving experience (Score:5, Funny)
You can imagine the looks that I received when passersby saw me scanning back and forth with a pringles antenna, wires coming out of it, and a laptop on my lap.
This is the point at which you look the passersby in the eye and say, "ghostbusting."
Edwards Air Force base (Score:2)
Anyone in that area, and curious enough to risk getting shot?
Seriously increase your range (Score:1)
Peace Driving... (Score:2, Funny)
Hah, thank God for 802.11 (Score:1)
Firewalls (Score:2)
Savvy companies now put their 802.11b links on the OUTSIDE of the firewall, and require their users to use an encrypted tunnel (ssh, VPN, etc.) to get to the LAN.
(Actually, it's usually a separate "outside" from the general internet, so they can also control forwarding of packets between the wireless users and the rest of the net. If they don't feel like providing a free access port for passers-by they can cut it off. The company users can work through a proxy at the other end of their tunnel.)
Coverage of this story elsewhere (Score:1)
A Late Link (Score:1)
[note:
http://www.dis.org/filez/openlans.pdf [dis.org]