TiVo Response to 2.0.1 Upgrade Issues 211
Keeper writes: "Richard Bullwinkle wrote an
official response to issues raised in the TiVo Upgrade Isn't article. The gist of it is that the changes made were only supposed to affect new units, not units upgraded from 1.3. Revision 2.5 of the software (due out in September) will reenable all of the functionality found in unsubscribed 1.3 units."
Re:It's clear to me I will never buy TiVo (Score:2)
I can click 3 buttons and say "record every episode of this show." I can click another button and get an instant replay of something I just saw on live tv, or pause it and go to the bathroom. I can view a list of everything recorded on the tivo, view it's description, and then play it instantly. No need to label every tape, or re-label it when I overwrite it to put something else on it. If i was a jerry bruckheimer fan (which i'm not) I could record any movie that he ever did that comes on any channel. Same goes for any actor, type of show, or other keyword that you can input.
Some of your distinct points:
"no need for tapes..."
Tapes are great for a while, but in general the quality sucks. with my DirecTivo, I see the show just as it was when it came off the satellite. Also, with a larger drive in my tivo, it will be able to store up to 200 hours of video. That's a lot of tapes.
"don't want to run a phone line..."
I bought a 30-foot phone cable from radio shack, and ran it along the wall. not too bad. Of course you can also get a phone line extender that uses the power lines in your house.
"dont need or want the service..."
As for paying tivo for the service and upgrades? I'm all for it. it costs money to collect the guide data from the different sources, and make sure that it works ok with your tivo. It costs money to make the upgrades to the tivo that I'm getting for free... like the ability to record two different programs at the same time.
To each their own I guess, but the tivo has a lot of features that I like, and am willing to pay money for.
It's clear to me I will never buy TiVo (Score:2)
Now the thing is, I'm perfectly capable of setting the time on the VCR.
I'm perfectly capable of setting up a recurring program on the VCR. I know I want to record my 1 hour show every wednesday at 8pm on channel 9.
The thing that bugs me about the VCR is having to remember to stick a tape in on wednesday morning that has been rewound.
It's frustrating when you get the first 15 minutes of the show, but then the tape runs out. Or nothing was recorded because I forgot a tape, etc.
So I thought TiVo would be kind of cool in this regard. No need for tapes... don't want 'em anyway as I intend to watch the show within the next day or two when I'm home.
But like I said. I can set the time, I can program the device, I can even read a TV guide to know when my show is on.
So why do I need or want this service?
Honestly I don't. It's also inconvenient for me to run a phone line in next to my television.
At one time I had asked people if I could use the Tivo the way I wanted without subscribing and they assured me that this was the case.
It's now apparent that this is not true, or at least TiVo doesn't want me as a customer.
That's too bad.
But I've noticed a product out there that does fit my needs. WinTV-Personal Video Recorder card from Hauppage.
It sounds intriguing. Does everything TiVo does that I want, but also includes a capability to archive recordings to Video-CD.
The only problem right now is it doesn't support Win2k but they are working on that.
Re:TiVo's business... (Score:2)
It's called the TV-Guide.
Besides, I usually don't need a TV Guide to figure out when my favorite television shows are on.
Re:It's clear to me I will never buy TiVo (Score:2)
Are we talking Windows 9x or Windows NT/2k?
I already have a WinTV-Go card and have had absolutely no problems with it locking up under Win2k. On the other hand, it doesn't seem to want to record sound with the video, which bugs me.
It wouldn't surprise me if you had problems with Windows 9x. I haven't used that version or 3.x for at least 4 years.
Re:It's clear to me I will never buy TiVo (Score:2)
Some of the other features you mention also sound useful.
But my point is that at a minimum, out of the box, the TiVo should have equal functionality to my VCR.
Wouldn't you agree?
Re:The problem with PC-based PVRs (Score:2)
The PC has offered a lot of power, most notably the ability to be general purpose for a lot of creative tasks. Recording TV to harddrive is just one such task that I can utilize the power of my current PC to accomplish.
I have no interest in replacing my PC with lot's of independent post-PC devices if each one of them requires a monthly subscription.
And by my reckoning I primarily will only be recording things when I'm not at home... so having a next to unusable PC doesn't seem like a problem.
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
That's not precise or particularly accurate. TiVo does not sell the hardware, Sony and Phillips do. Customers who puchase a TiVo PVR have not paid TiVo until they subscribe to the service.
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
Tivo may have made a mistake, but they are letting you have a free ride they don't have any obligation to give you.
If I gather correctly, non-subscribers plugged their TiVos into the phone line to set the clock. Without the ability to set the clock, the TiVo is varely functional. TiVo promised certain functionality to non-subscribers when they purchased the unit, and that functionality included time based recording. TiVo didn't let users set their own clocks, so get this this functionality you must plug it into the phone line. Hacking around the clock is not a reasonable option. I shouldn't need to hack on the hardware (and void the warranty) to get basic functionality.
So, TiVo's upgrade took functionality away from users who paid for it. Of course people are going to complain!
You all sound like a bunch of fucking whiny kids that can't handle a couple months without TV.
Actually they sound like adults who spent $400 dollars on a piece of hardware which just lost functionality they paid for.
However, if you feel this is childish, presumably you're much more mature. I'd be perfectly happy to sell you any number of products that disable functionality without warning.
When reading these stories, I went to Amazon.com to see how much people liked their Tivos and its like freaking testimonials..."It has revolutionized my life..." Have these people never heard of VCRs?
Yes, a TiVo is just a VCR at its core. But it is without a doubt vastly superior to most VCRs. If you want to watch a show you've recorded, just pick it from the menu, no hunting through tapes to find it. You can pick the show to record from a friendly GUI. You can tell it "Get me The Simpsons", and it will. Simply put, TiVo is easy. So easy that you stop managing your recording and viewing. You just watch what you want to watch when you want it. When you move from a 56k modem to broadband, you change how you interact with the internet, it becomes a utility you assume is present, like water. When you get a digital video recorder, you change how you interact with television, you watch at your convience.
Re:Typical Slashdot (Score:2)
--
Re:Richard Bullwinkle? (Score:2)
(Although moderators without an appreciation of the original Rocky and Bullwinkle could explain a lot about the past several months)
Re:TiVo thinks... (Score:2)
Only physically disconnecting the phone line would prevent this. That would make it rather difficult to utilize the second of the 2 choices you offer, the one that doesn't involve having to hook the unit up to a computer or having to know anymore about the operating system of your Tivo than you do about the (built-in to the hardware) operating system of your VHS VCR.
Re:Counterpoint (Score:2)
Re:TiVo's business... (Score:2)
"TiVo already profited from your unit before your bought it."
I can't begin to figure out how to answer that, but any business plan where the profit happens before the sale is even made must be connected with the internet somehow :-)
We'll fix all those 'issues' in the next release.. (Score:2)
Where have we heard that one before?
You are right: you don't get it (Score:2)
You're right. You don't get it. These people paid good money for a product which requires the "free" timing service you allude to.
They purchased the product with the understanding that the time setting service (as opposed to the listing services) would be available. They did not agree to or expect this service to retroactively sabatage their equipment and make an optional service which they had chosen not to buy a required service, after the fact.
You all sound like a bunch of fucking whiny kids that can't handle a couple months without TV.
You sound like a fucking whiny objectivist who cannot see basic human and consumer rights in anything other than terms of immediate profitability and contract business law. Capitalism is one aspect of our society, not the entire sum total of our society. Consumer rights legislation (no matter how weakened by the last couple of decades of neglect and outright attack) balances that against other social interests. On a more fundamental level (and less related to the immediate subject at hand, but nevertheless a valid example of another aspect of society which has nothing whatsoever to do with the objectivisit world view) human rights, religion, and even democracy itself stem not from contract law or capatalistic self-interest, but from a completely unrelated set of ideals and expectations which our society has deemed important, even necessary, to forming the kind of world we wish to live in.
Back to the immediate subject at hand: if the next time you took your car in for a tuneup the manufactuer (or its representative in the form of the local mechanic) were to replace engine parts with inferior alternatives because they accidentally built cars that could run 10 million miles and 200 years without repairs, threatening their service revinue, you would probably complain bitterly. Nevermind that the tuneup was offered for free as part of a sales promotion, the fact remains that your property has been sabataged after the fact in order to enhance the revinue stream of the manufacturer.
This is tantimount to vandalism of private property by the manufacturer (you, not they, now own the car or the TiVo), whether or not it is an automobile or a recording device and irrespective of whether the sabataged part is a mechanical device or a piece of software.
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
If their testing is so thorough, how did this get through in the first case?
> for customers who arent paying them
To be more precise, you should say: "for customers that already paid them".
Re:Why I don't own a Tivo (and probably never will (Score:2)
Yeah, I guess that is why Shick and Gillette have gone out of business...
There is a big flaw in that argument, razors that do not need new blades (ie electrics) suck. Straight razors are better, but more difficult to use.
The Tivo without the service sucks, don't buy one if you are not going to get the service. The Tivo with the service is the best thing to happen to TV since color.
Oh and TV listings is not all you get for $10 a month. You also get Suggestions, Wishlists, a builtin "magazine" with more suggestions, a powerful search feature, season passes, support, and software upgrades. Well worth it for me and many others.
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
Then disconnect the damn phone line!
(Don't blame me if this blows up in your face. I've never tested it! But it should work, unless the 2.0.1 upgrade zapped the backup partitions too. You will probably lose all of your recordings though...)
Re:They were just testing the waters... (Score:2)
There are plenty of things it can do without being subscribed to a service.
When I first heard about this in the previous article, I had hoped it was a mistake. But the response I read, while revealing such a mistake, also revealed the real reason I will now never consider buying a TiVo. That reason is that their whole marketing plan is to get subscribers for marketing purposes. So as far as I'm concerned, TiVo is out and doomed ... not the box, per se ... the company.
I don't own one. I was thinking about getting one. But now I never will.
Counterpoint (Score:2)
If you have a TiVO, you PAID for it, outright, so you shouldn't PAY for anything else if you don't want to. Nobody is asking for *anything* for free, they are asking for the device to do what it did when they BOUGHT it.
Re:They were just testing the waters... (Score:2)
My satellite receiver doesn't work! (Score:2)
Sounds pretty silly, doesn't it? Well, that's basically what this issue is like. It's made pretty clear that the box is basically a doorstop without the service.
Can some one make something like a TiVo that works without the monthly service? Sure, but that's not current business model for this sort of thing. Note that UltimateTV does even less without the monthly service. While I understand that folks WANT to be able to do this stuff without paying a service, the facts are that product doesn't yet exist.
Re:My satellite receiver doesn't work! (Score:2)
My phone doesn't work without a monthly fee either.... nor does my cell phone, etc....
It'd be different if TiVo was the first item ever marketed where you had to do more than just buy the box. It's not, paying for a service beyond the hardware is nothing new.
Now, you can argue that TiVo is overpriced for what you get, but again, that's a totally different point and still nothing unique to TiVo.
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
The phone line is for setting the time. TiVo didn't provide any other way to do it and the clock consistently drifts.
Without hacking it, there is *NO WAY* to set the time.
> "You all sound like a bunch of fucking whiny kids that can't handle a couple months without TV."
How about "A bunch of fucking whiny consumers who simply want the product that they paid for to work as advertised"? That's just ever so slightly more accurate.
> A conventional VCR will work just fine
Sure, if you want to find tapes, rewind to empty spots in the tape, deal deal lower-quality pictures, and not be able to pause live TV.
But, other than all that, yeah, it's just like a VCR.
But you know, I don't really give a shit. Even if it was exactly the same as a VCR, people paid money for it, they deserve it working as it was advertised.
If TiVo never intended the product to work without service, they shouldn't have sold it in Canada. The fact that they did is pretty strong proof that in the beginning (before their revisionist history) they did intend it to be a glorified VCR that would do more with a subscription, instead of their current party-line...
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
They could easily remedy this by providing free service to the affected people until the fix is available. The unit already makes the call, it wouldn't cost them a dime.
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
These people paid money for their TiVo, and have given TiVo demographics to sell.
They are customers with all the rights due any other customer.
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
It's not suprising they want to rip other people off, they're greedy asses who want their stock to rise, regardless of the cost to anyone else.
The party-line is that the BB isn't a TiVo corporate board, but the administrator and most of the oldtimers there are stock-holders, and the funding for it has never been properly explained... It's a lot like those fake fan-sites for movies.
It's just a bunch of dishonest people looking to screw someone over as the best way to make a buck.
Re:They still don't get it. (Score:2)
The clock drifts pretty horribly, from the description of users (1+ minutes per months, in three months you're missing the beginning of all your shows.)
There's no way to set the clock from the menus, so it's not merely like any other unset clock in your house. This one you CAN'T set.
So they tell people to leave it plugged in so it calls up and grabs the correct time.
(This also sends them the demographics, so if anyone ever says unsubscribed boxes are costing them money, they're lying (It's a fact, they report a tidy chunk of their income as sales of demographics.))
Re:They were just testing the waters... (Score:2)
Their official representative told people to take what they got and lump it, because they aren't customers and TiVo doesn't care one bit about them.
He later backpeddled and said that was an accident (sure...) and that if you merely wait three months, your Tivo will function as expected again. (If you believe that they'll get it right, this time.)
If this was an accident they'd have appologized immediately and offered free service (which restores the unit to the proper functionality) for the duration of the problem.
They did neither. They're using fraudulent business practices, false advertising, and intimidation to run their business.
Re:See, it's alright. (Score:2)
Who cares what the original cause was, it wasn't until there was a huge outcry that they stopped being assholes about it.
TiVolutionary's actions were probably enough to uphold a fraud charge, if not extortion.
He basically said (and I know you saw it) that non-subscribers didn't matter at all to TiVo, because they aren't part of the revenue stream, thus he didn't care what happened.
Then the "non-TiVo" admins of the forum started harassing anyone who suggested that TiVo had done a bad thing. (I say that in quotes because most of admitted stockholders, and there have been supported allegations in the past that a few of them are getting payola from TiVo.)
I just read your post, where you basically said that everyone should just shutup and deal with more nag screens, because, well, um, oh just deal with it... Was that an accurate summary?
These people bought a product that didn't work without being plugged in (claims to the contrary, you can't set the time without this) and they operated it in the correct (even according to TiVo) fashion. Then TiVo changed the software and rendered the system almost useless (excessive nag screens, etc).
Take your pick.
1) The unsubscribed users aren't TiVo's customers. This means that TiVo sabotaged a device belong to someone else, sold to them by a third party.
2) These people are TiVo's customers (though indirectly) and TiVo owes them the same level of service they were promised when they purchased the products.
Either one works, though I think #2 is closer... TiVo was using the demographics info that was uploaded, and by doing so, was implicitly accepting the user's phone-call.
Take your pick, imcompotent, or criminals. I'm thinking incompotent at this point, but if they don't clean up their act pretty quickly, I'll lean toward criminal.
They *need* to offer either immediate return to 1.3-level functionality, or temporary subscriptions. To do less opens them (completely justifiably) to lawsuits.
Then they need to get heavy into the PR to convince the lifetime subscribers that they aren't next. As someone pointed out, lifetime subscribers aren't generating any revenue for TiVo either... What's to stop them from pulling this again if they aren't forced to make it up to people? (Or, if the first was an accident, from doing it deliberately this time.)
Re:BFD! (Score:2)
Now, let's say that you like playing low-gravity Quake 3 (a favorite among my friends, actually) and have made maps that work well with this.
So you connect to a server one day and when it does the online-authorization it also sends an update, without asking, which removes support for these things.
Would you be annoyed?
The product doesn't specifically say you can set the gravity levels, but people have heard about its customizability and bought it for this.
So now, when you try to play Q3 with your friends, you can't use the settings you like, or the maps you want.
Now, to tie this into TiVo, imagine that you can't simply stick the CD in and manually reinstall it.
Would you be annoyed?
Well, maybe not, you see to be in TiVo's pocket from some of your other posts... Stockholder by any chance?
Re:Important (if a little OT) (Score:2)
Not exactly an unbiased solution.
Rest assured, this is being mirrored, like DeCSS was...
Re:I guess they... (Score:2)
But, I'm pretty sure that by their automatic downloading of demographic info every night, they entered into an implicit business relationship with you.
Either way, 'fixing' someone's device so that it doesn't work the way it did when they bought it, without their permission, is going to be illegal in many ways, depending if they planned this, etc.
Re:TiVo's business... (Score:2)
I'm just sayin'
Re:What about new Customers (Score:2)
For the goatse.cx shy, http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=vcr
FWIW -- 1.2.1 upgrade to 2.0.1, "trial period" (Score:2)
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
Re:TiVo's business... (Score:2)
TiVo lets you buy the units without service. They were forcefully upgraded without the user's knowledge, and that upgrade reduced functionality. That isn't right.
Yes, "forcefully" is the correct word there. TiVo does not provide a way for you to manually set the date and time. If you want your date and time to be correct (and not drift) you need to connect it to a phone line.
Lets not forget, there are some very legitimate reasons why someone would not need TiVo's service. Such as someone living in Canada or some other area which the service doesn't cover. Or someone with multiple TiVos and only wishing to have the service on 1 of them.
If TiVo wanted service to be manditory on all units, they should have done that. They shouldn't be "punishing" users that have found a useful way to use one of their boxes without service.
See, it's alright. (Score:2)
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
And how does Tivo know whether or not you "want" it? It's not like you can put a Post-it note on your box saying "Please downgrade me ASAP!" Any change in software will get rippled to every Tivo - so they're not about to rush a slap-dash "fix" into production, and that's the right thing to do.
At the risk of changing your sense of perspective, their 2.0 upgrade adversely affected what, a few dozen people? Maybe a few hundred? It's a drop in the bucket. By rushing a "fix" to appease 0.2% of their customer base they risk hosing up everyone. Better they should take their time and do it right.
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
How many programs do you record on VCR? Have you ever missed an episode of a program that you watch regularly? Have you ever turned on the TV and either
a) turned it back off after surfing for 10 min
b) ended up watching crap
because there was nothing on that you wanted to watch?
That never happens to me. Never. There's always something good on TV, I never miss an episode of my favorite shows, and I watch it whenever I want.
TiVo is not a very important part of my life. The part of my life that I spend watching TV, though, it has revolutionized completely.
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
You don't have to purchase a subscription to the TiVo service for old units that advertised the unit could be used without the service. The new boxes have in nice big words that the TiVo service is REQUIRED for the unit to work.
If you read the statement this article linked to, it's quite obvious what happened.
They went "damn, our bad -- it's not supposed to do that on old units, we'll fix it". It happens. It's not like they woke up one morning and went "hrmm, what's the best way to screw people we don't do business with?"
What more do you want?
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
The problem is that fixing this isn't as simple as adding a few lines of code. On top of that, they have to run the software through a LOT of testing to make sure they didn't foobar something else up really bad (and believe it or not, the software running is AMAZINGLY stable; my unit has NEVER crashed). On top of that, an upgrade has to be created which won't turn anyone's machine into a permanant doorstop (ie: current unsubscribed users are experiencing a bug which renders their machine useless to them; however, this can be fixed. An upgrade which hoses the machine to the point where it doesn't function can NEVER be fixed; this isn't a trivial task and the testing/verification for this proceedure takes a LOT of time).
Re:I guess they... (Score:2)
Do you HONESTLY think that they're so starved for revenue that the 100 people that bought a TiVo WITHOUT subscribing would change anything? Yeesh...
TiVo is the MODEL of how a good company should be run. They make a cool product that WORKS. They used open source software and released their changes. They arn't out to rule the world. They talk frankly with their customers and own up to their mistakes.
Re:I guess they... (Score:2)
Re:They still don't get it. (Score:2)
The 2.0.1 software was in beta testing for at least 4 months alone, probably closer to 6. And believe it or not, it's rock solid.
Re:Why I don't own a Tivo (and probably never will (Score:2)
The fast forward at 60x + play + autocorrect means you almost never have to compensate for overshoots found with a 30 second skip. 5 minute commercial breaks last about 2 seconds.
The reason why people like me "leap" to the defense of TiVo is because we've USED the unit and love it. It's not just a glorified vcr with vcr+. It's not just a glorified vcr with a program guide either.
People like you just don't understand the ramifications of what CAN BE DONE with such a device.
The $10/mo isn't just paying for tv program data. It's also paying for the paychecks of the programmers adding new features for the software.
I may also submit that maintaining program guide data is also a non-trivial task -- it requires the ability to organize over 25000 timeslots (that's channel + program + description + peripheral info) per WEEK for every service area in the united states. That means a single person would have to be able to enter 10 shows every minute in a 40 hour work week. I'd expect (optimistically) one entry/verification per minute, so this means there need to be 10 people working on data entry for program data ALONE. And that's just to cover one area. More likely there'd need to be 20 people working to cover all channels aired across the country. Then you need someone to maintain what cable company carries what channel in what area. Let's say you underpay those 20 employees and only pay them $45,000 a year. That's $900,000 a year just to maintain the guide data. With just 200,000 subscribers, half of that $10/mo would be used to pay for the maintenance of guide data. And this doesn't even take into account the cost of distributing that information, nor obtaining the information. And that's a conservative estimate!
The 2.0.1 upgrade added Wishlists, various ways of eliminating repeat recordings, and season pass prioritization/conflict resolution; those are not the only 3 things added with the 2.0.1 release, but they added so much to what the unit is capable of that it's unbelievable.
I can now tell the tivo to record all movies that have Jackie Chan in them (a wishlist recording). It will now record only new Episodes of ER instead of the 20 repeats of the show aired throughout the week. It will now record both Farscape AND the an episode Iron Chef on Friday (as opposed to Farscape OR two episodes of the Iron Chef).
And that's just 3 of the enhancements with the new software. The old software was able to do some pretty kick ass things as well.
So tell me again how $10 a month to maintain the guide data and fund future enhancements to the software is inflated?
This isn't stuff that a simple tv tuner card + software on a pc is capable of.
Re:They still don't get it. (Score:2)
You also neglect the fact that any 1.3 unit could be unsubbed, which means that it COULD be any unit in existance. It may be a subsample, but you don't know what that subsample of units is.
Your estimate of a "fix" is also overly simplistic at best. You don't know ANYTHING about how the code is designed. You don't know how the ShowNagScreen function is called or what it does. You don't know if it's all over the code, or in specific places, or running off of a timer. You don't know if there are any performance issues with the WasIOnceA13System check. The problem is that the 2.0.1 software isn't a minor change to the old code -- it's a significant change; it isn't as simple as going back through CVS, doing a diff, and combining the code with an if statement around it.
The channel banners completely changed from 1.3 to 2.0.1. You don't know what all is involved in conditionally changing the manual recording description to display the time/date recording information. Recording also changed significantly (in 2.0.1, when you press the record button it takes the contents of the current live buffer and prepends it to the rest of the program, so you get the whole tv show; with an unsubbed unit, the tivo record the first half hour and then stopped with 1.3; with 2.0.1, just enabling the record function would just add the current buffer to the recording list; still doesn't work as intended).
Being a "software engineer", I'm sure you have also at some point changed one line of code that broke a core piece of the software in a non-obvious way.
Now tell me again why they shouldn't bother doing any testing?
Re:They still don't get it. (Score:2)
Additionally, TiVo is NOT going to be supporting multiple revisions of the software. They can probably get it out to the effected people first, but everyone is going to have it eventually, or there may be problems NEXT time the software is released.
The show nag screen shows a function. What else could it do? You tell me, I dunno what else it's doing. I don't know what other flags it sets, if it's actually integrated into some house keeping code, or anything else of that nature.
Static/global boolean variables
When was the last time testing brought up a non-obvious bug without doing a full regression test cycle? Wait, these changes are supposed to be simple -- only a line or two, they don't need to do any real testing
EVERY release of the TiVo software has to be treated like a major release. It's not like it's a simple matter of downloading an updated dll or uninstalling an upgrade like it is on windows. Everyone is stuck with whatever is sucked onto the current box until the next release. That's why the current people with unsubscribed units are stuck! They didn't thouroghly examine the unsubscribed mode of the software, just the bits that do manual recordings! If you think the reaction they got from people who DON'T do much with the box is bad, just wait until 99% of the people responsible actually providing money to TiVo get pissed off.
You didn't bother responding to a few other points I made, so I'll assume that you acknoledged their validity.
Re:What about new Customers (Score:5)
That's how this whole mess started. They didn't want to remove the functionality of the old boxes, but did from new boxes. Just so happens that they missed some things in testing because they wern't paying a whole lot of attention to it in the first place.
The problem with PC-based PVRs (Score:2)
It sounds intriguing. Does everything TiVo does that I want, but also includes a capability to archive recordings to Video-CD
The problem with that kind of solution is that you either have to buy a PC to run them on, which makes it way more expensive than a Tivo, with far less functionality, or you'll have a next to unusable PC anytime it records something.
Re:They still don't get it. (Score:2)
These are a few isolated bugs, not significant changes to the software. Standard procedure in the business when you've released software that's disastrously broken for some set of customers, is to rush out a bugfix release to them, often within days. Not three months.
There is no need to develop and test an upgrade proceedure that will work on every single variation of every machine in existance, since only a small identifiable subset of the machines have this problem. According to the Tivolutionary explanation, the reason this happened was just that they didn't test for these cases.
Further according to the explanation, they do have a state for this category of users in the code. They obviously have both the new and the old code. So the fixes would be to insert code like this in about 5 places.
if (oldNoSub)
old code;
else
new code;
Re:They still don't get it. (Score:2)
You miss a significant point. In the case of a TiVo, you don't rush a fix out to just a few customers, you end up rushing a fix out to ALL CUSTOMERS. The "update" code doesn't check to see if you've got a subscription or not, it just checks to see if there is a new version available and grabs it.
Do you know this for a fact? If it's true, it's probably one reason they don't make a bug release. Updating every Tivo out there is probably pretty expensive.
I believe they have the ability to send updates to specific TiVo serial numbers or a range of numbers, but they need to know those #'s first
They can. I requested 2.01 beta and got it a day or 2 later. So they could easily let people with this problem request the bug fix update one by one. If they cared enough.
Your estimate of a "fix" is also overly simplistic at best. You don't know ANYTHING about how the code is designed.
Sure. But if it's designed anywhere near a professional level, it will be this easy, or pretty close to it. If not, there is really no hope for this company.
That it should take 3 months is ridiculous. If they worked at that speed, 2.01 would have taken 40 years to do.
You don't know how the ShowNagScreen function is called or what it does. You don't know if it's all over the code, or in specific places, or running off of a timer.
The function shows the nag screen. What else could it possibly do?
You don't fix it where it's called, you fix it in the function. To get it back to only show it every 8 hours, you'd let the function remember the last time it was shown, and if it's called before that time + 8 hours it simply returns without showing the screen. That's probably how it was implemented before.
You don't know if there are any performance issues with the WasIOnceA13System check.
If there are, they could introduce this hitech invention called a "boolean variable", which makes it so they only have to run that function once. Pretty neat.
The problem is that the 2.0.1 software isn't a minor change to the old code -- it's a significant change; it isn't as simple as going back through CVS, doing a diff, and combining the code with an if statement around it.
Sure. Someone familiar with the code would have to get the old code and put it back in in a workable way.
Being a "software engineer", I'm sure you have also at some point changed one line of code that broke a core piece of the software in a non-obvious way.
I probably have. Which is why you test these things.
Now tell me again why they shouldn't bother doing any testing?
When did I tell you the first time?? You're confusing me with some fantasy figure. Of course you do some testing for a bugfix release, but not the full test cycle that you do for a major release
.
They still don't get it. (Score:3)
Imagine a car dealership popping the tires of your new car after a few months since you didn't pay for the extended insurance! It has to be illegal, and they should consider how amused a judge would be by their childish excuses.
Saying they'll fix it in 3 months is not nearly good enough. They should fix it ASAP. I'm a software engineer, and if those changes takes three months to do, there is no hope for their software. A week is more likely. And meanwhile, these people should get the subscription for free.
I'm a very happy Tivo owner (and less happy stockholder
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
Re:You forgot the Goolge search string for Tivo (Score:2)
Re:TiVo Links (Score:2)
What TiVo Teaches Us About the Internet [editorandpublisher.com]
"The conclusion I arrive at is that big ads on online content and news sites will not be a big success. While the online news and content industries are headed down this new path of more intrusive online ads, it well may prove to be the wrong way. Just as television advertising will need to adapt to the realities of TiVo users like me skipping over commercials, Web publishers must deal with the same issue."
The Power Of Slashdot (Score:3)
One day after Slashdot mentions it, we get an official response with the phrase, "we never had any intention of trying to diminish the value of an existing box without the TiVo service, or of annoying those of you who use the box this way in order to push you into becoming paying subscribers." WTF!?!?! This is totally new information. Every TiVo user on the forum was under the impression that TiVo did not care about non-subscribers, since these people actually cost TiVo money.
The whole "official response" is fully of language that completely contradicts every earlier post in the forum. Granted, almost all of those posts were from people who are not TiVo employees, but it's still amazing.
What upsets me (and probably every other forum reader) the most is that it took so long from this information to come out. This official response should have come out six months ago.
--
Lord Nimon
Important (if a little OT) (Score:4)
However, I noticed that all source code was removed from the page of the developer. Does anyone know why the source was pulled? A mirror of the file ExtractStream-0.1.tgz is available at http://www.stampede.org/~skibum/tivo/ [stampede.org] I't be a great pity if such an amazing hack were to be lost forever or for development to stop. What I want to know is, was the author threatened by TiVo or some other party? I'm not sure if they'd have any legal ground but it seems very unfair to threaten this man legally for his great hack.
Re:TiVo's business... (Score:2)
Look, the damn thing is a digital vcr. It's cool as that alone. The so-called "service" mostly consists of spying on me and selling the information to marketing companies. I don't want it. I just want a fscking digital vcr, and it was advertised as such - with the "service" an optional extra.
This response is not nearly sufficient. I have no trouble believing it was an oversight and suggested earlier waiting for their response before acting, but this response simply isn't acceptable. This is a property rights issue. They cracked the boxes of non-subscribers without permission and now say they'll fix the damage they caused by september? They should be facing both civil and criminal charges for this.
"That old saw about the early bird just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
Re:Rivals? (Score:2)
Re:They were just testing the waters... (Score:5)
My cellphone does work without a service - It's a clock, and I can play Space Invaders on it. My 6 year old's cell phone works without a service too - it lights up, and he can play at making calls with it.
If the limited functionality without a service is all that you need, then why buy the service ?
If a contract offers a particular set of functions without buying the service, then it's a clear breach of that contract to withdraw those service later. AFAIK, the TiVo contract stated that these services might not be available on later boxes, but that they were available on boxes of that generation.
Your "stupidity explains most perceived malice" comment is probably true here, but that doesn't excuse TiVo's behaviour, nor does it remove the loss suffered by existing TiVo owners.
What's the financial status of TiVo ? I'm not implying anything by this, other than caution, but this sort of low-rent money-grabbing trick has been the action of last-resort by an awful lot of cash-strapped dot-coms lately.
Re:Typical Slashdot (Score:2)
Tivo made the thing so you had to call in *ON PURPOSE* so they could do just this sort of thing -- remember *TIVO NEEDS PEOPLE TO CALL IN* so they can download the statistical info your tivo is quietly collecting about you.
All you were entitled to when you purchased the box was what came with it
Thats exactly right! And this "upgrade" disabled some features that the equiptment had when they originally purchased it! Thats fraud if I ever heard it.
And the last thing -- even *IF* you were using prescious tivo phone bandwidth/resources by calling in when your not a subscriber -- how again does that entitle tivo to break your hardware in order to get you to pay ?
whew tivos not as bad as i feared 24 hrs ago (Score:2)
i don't care if they are just bowing to the grumblings of slashdot at least they heard us, and quick too.
Re:TiVo's business... (Score:2)
How about free over my cable service? In San Francisco, AT&T cable service provides complete listings of all channels, and is completely browsable. And before you go moaning about how I'm paying for cable service (well, I'm not paying for cable, I use an antenna, but back home at my parents' place, they have cable), what the hell is the point of a Tivo if you don't have cable? A VCR is more than adequate if all you want to record is Star Trek: TNG every night, because you missed out on getting a complete collection back when it was originally airing.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
Financial status of TiVo (Score:3)
Net loss last quarter: $49 million.
Net loss a year ago last quarter: $23 million.
Cash and equivalents last quarter: $72.7 million.
Cash and equivalents a year ago last quarter: $124.5 million.
So, even assuming that their burn rate does not increase (though, the current trend is doubling from last year to this), they'll be broke by next January. Hmm, right about the same time as Webvan.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
Re:What about new Customers (Score:2)
Mabye I can build my own Tivo. Does anybody know how to setup a linux box to function like a tivo? (Matrox card?)
It is very easy to put the hardware together. A Celeron/Duron in the 600Mhz area, motherboard (with integrated sound/video), 128 MB RAM, a DvD drive, 20 GB Hard Drive, wireless keyboard/mouse, speakers and a TV tuner card with s-video out. If you shop hard you can assemble this for $500-$600. Both Windows and Linux has software which allows you to record off of the TV Card, but if you want to be able to watch TV and record something else, you will need to purchase two TV cards. At that point all you need is someone to write a program which will download the TV listings from TVGuide.com, search the listing for the shows you want and setup a scheduler program to record the show.
Of course it might be worth it to wait and see if any other companies decide to start making TiVO like devices to sell as hardware only, no service at all, but will cost more like $500 rather than TiVO's $300, in order to make money on the hardware. I am a happy TiVO subscriber, but I'd still buy one of these hardware only boxes if someone would put one out.
Jesus died for sombodies sins, but not mine.
What about new Customers (Score:3)
I've been wanting to get a Tivo, but I've been holding off. I probably wont be a subscriber because I just dont watch that much TV.
If the new Tivos wont let you record, and they pop-up nag screens to get you to subscribe- what the hell good are they?(to a non subscriber) What do they actually let you do without a subscription...
Mabye I can build my own Tivo. Does anybody know how to setup a linux box to function like a tivo? (Matrox card?)
Wow, you're full of crap! (Score:2)
2) This problem didn't exist until recently - certainly not 6 months ago (before 2.01 existed). It wasn't until 'the rest' of the TiVos got upgraded in the last few weeks that the problem popped up.
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
Now all these people get pissed off that Tivo changed things!! WTF did you think the phone line was for?
Bitch all you want, Tivo may have made a mistake, but they are letting you have a free ride they don't have any obligation to give you.
Never criticise someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes.
Here are some items to ponder:
Now, in return for updating the clock, Joe Unsub is giving TiVo fine-grained viewing information at his own cost (of the call).
Who's the leach now?
Before you start bitching about things you don't know about, take the time to think a little. They are not letting you have a free ride.
Re:Those evil rat bastards! (Score:2)
Actually, I LOVE Bill Gates. I'm a software developer who focuses on apps for the Windows platforms. Personally, I've always felt that I'd do the same thing BillG does if it were ME up in Redmond.
You may not like it, but he uses his power. Read The 48 Laws of Power [fatbrain.com] for a good explanation.
Still, it irks me to see companies act foolishly. I DO agree with the subscriber line comment, though. Very good thought.
Re:TiVo thinks... (Score:2)
Yes, I read the article. Notice that the author still indicates that the company intended to reduce functionality of those devices that are not partaking of the subscription services. Now, admittedly, if this functionality is part of the subscription, then fine, reduce away. Otherwise, it would appear to me that the company is trying to steer owners to the subscription service in a rather heavy-handed way. I think, if I owned one of these things, I would hack hell out of it to get away from the TiVo company...or I'd just ante up for the subscription.
Personally, why watch so much TV in the first place? You guys should be coding [sourceforge.net].
TiVo thinks... (Score:3)
This is a Great Company (Score:2)
Don't like the fact that 2001 Ford Mustang isn't as quick as the 1999 model? Ford doesn't care. Hate the way the new IE update takes over your PC? MS doesnt care. Dont like the fact that the Tivo upgrade broke your non-subscribed box? They fix it!
D
Mad Scientists with too much time on thier hands
Typical Slashdot (Score:3)
Revelations 0:0 - The begining of the end.
Re:Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice.... (Score:2)
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
Hmmm sounds really easy to me, especially if they modified their filesystem code.
Re:Rivals? (Score:2)
If you want to take Tivo completely out of the picture, you can use the serial port on the back and using a terminal program set the time manually using Linux "date". You never HAVE to call Tivo or any other service.
Re:Fixed by Sept? (Score:2)
Re:Counterpoint (Score:2)
1) Select "perform test call" from the menu periodically to sync your time
or
2) Use a serial cable on the back of the Tivo and set your time manually using Linux's date command.
3) Call in as a subscriber to the subscriber line and have Tivo set your time AND possibly upgrade your software.
Neither 1 or 2 will touch your software, 3 WILL get you an upgrade subscriber or not (if you're not a subscriber don't call the subscriber line); in fact with #2, you never have to call Tivo, Tivo could die and fold up and you'd still have exactly the same functionality.
Re:Fixed by Sept? (Score:2)
If I was Tivo, I'd make it difficult too, if they were not paying for the service (needs some reason to pay for it), but not impossible; which is what they've done.
Re:TiVo thinks... (Score:2)
How often do you think syncing of the clock needs to be done, daily??? You could do it once every other month or even once a quarter, plug in your phone line and perform a test call. That's just too much hard work, I'll have to plug my phone line in, 6 whole times next year.
Re:TiVo thinks... (Score:2)
I completely realize that this is meant for a consumer level device, now do YOU realize that not using the service makes it not a consumer level device?
Re:TiVo thinks... (Score:2)
http://tivo.samba.org/index.cgi?req=show&file=f
Re:TiVo thinks... (Score:2)
The part that get's me about this, is that Tivo doesn't make the boxes, they only provide the software and the dialup service. So when you bought the box, and did't pay for the service, you became a dead cost to Tivo. They didn't get money off of your purchase, and you are constantly costing them money with the phone calls with absolutely no monetary return.
Re:TiVo thinks... (Score:5)
1) Setting the date manually using the serial port on back
or
2) Used the "test call" option from the menu to just sync your time
with either option Tivo would not have touched the software, in fact with #1, you never ever had to call Tivo to begin with, ever.
If you aren't a subscriber you SHOULDN'T BE CALLING IN AS A SUBSCRIBER.
Re:I guess they... (Score:2)
I'm getting pretty tired of people promulgating this false information. Tivo makes money by selling subscriptions and selling statistics on your viewing habits. That is why TiVo has non-subscribers call in. This set your clock crap is just that... crap. Tivo is not going to continue to absorb costs just to keep the clock on your TiVo box up to date. There is no reason TiVo couldn't send down a version of the software that allowed users to easily set their own clock (without going through some back door) and stopped costing them money for connecting to their service. Your TiVo connects to the TiVo service every night because it gives TiVo information that is worth more to them than the cost of the connection.
Let's see what does a non-subscribed TiVo unit allow you to do that justifies it costing more than a regular VCR:
There's more to having a TiVo than data mining channel listings.
Re:Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice.... (Score:2)
You are right though, they can't easily stick it to you if you never call up. Though I also understand that the TiVo needs to make one "test call" before it is first used.
When (if) I get a TiVo, I think I'm going to take the "void your warranty" risk and backup the initial drive image. That way I always have a fallback if they decide to screw the consumer again. (of course I had better get a TiVo soon before the only ones available are those shipping with 2.0.1)
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
No, not a coincidence. If TiVo did as you said, and subsidized $200 to buy the box and you then paid $200 for a lifetime subscription, then TiVo operated at a loss. If they are still subsidizing $200 for the purchase of a box and it costs $250 for a lifetime membership, they may still be operating at a loss.
If you would read their SEC filing, they have entered into agreements with several partners (most notably Quantum) to share a portion of their revenue from subscriptions in exchange for perks (i.e. Quantum selling the hard drives to TiVo device manufacturers dirt cheap).
TiVo has played the necessary dirty games to become the only player on the block (sorry, Replay is just not a viable competitor right now) but it cost them a lot of money. One reason to support the unsubs is that TiVo could go belly up, and then you'd be dependent on the subscription structure of another company looking to recoup the costs of buying out TiVo *and* turn a profit, or you could use the setup that the unsubs fought for.
Re:They were just testing the waters... (Score:3)
Mostly Wrong. The whole outcry occurred because people without the subscription service found the TiVo with the 1.3 software useful for recording live TV and programming recordings of shows. When the update came out these same people found the device to be signficantly more difficult to use than before. Then the TiVo became nearly useless without the service. Your statement should have been "Tivos are nearly useless without the service after the 2.0.1 software upgrade anyway".
They have a few bugs in the new software that make it less usable for those without the service, but they are going to fix those.
What they have done is disable non-advanced features and denied promises displayed prominently on their advertising material (notably "subscription to service required for advanced features") and stated that they will leave customers - who purchased the units in good faith - in this state of significantly diminished usability for three months.
This looks like a deliberate ruse to get non-subscribers to subscribe since a 2.0.2 update that simply bypassed the "you must be subscribed" screen for one touch recording would be easy to implement and quick to QA. Even if it was initially a mistake on their part, they are making little effort to fix it since from their perspective it could clearly lead to new subscriptions.
What TiVo needs is a class action lawsuit filed against it that drops its stock price a couple of dollars. *that* will shake up the guys holding lots of shares at the top and will quickly trickle down so that the situation is fixed in short order.
Re:QUICK response? (Score:2)
I just don't get it. You buy the Tivo from Philips, and then you hook it up to a phone line for a free time/update service that Tivo provides.
Now all these people get pissed off that Tivo changed things!! WTF did you think the phone line was for?
Bitch all you want, Tivo may have made a mistake, but they are letting you have a free ride they don't have any obligation to give you.
If I owned a Tivo, I would just have purchase the $200 lifetime subscription upfront and been done with it. Or hacked it and not used their free time server.
You all sound like a bunch of fucking whiny kids that can't handle a couple months without TV.
There are alternatives, you know. A conventional VCR will work just fine. Side note: When reading these stories, I went to Amazon.com to see how much people liked their Tivos and its like freaking testimonials..."It has revolutionized my life..." Have these people never heard of VCRs?
Re:TiVo thinks... (Score:2)
One could argue that the hard drive hacks actually help TiVo. For example, when TiVo was trying to clear out their older 15 hour units (which're only 7 hours or less at the more decent quality settings) to make room for new models, a lot of people bought 'em for cheap ($200 or less, after rebate, for the TiVo and lifetime service), threw an additional harddrive in there, and were very, very happy. I know I wound up with a TiVo that had 33% more capacity than the largest one that was on the market at the time.
Now, since TiVo makes their money on the service (they actually lose money if you buy the hardware and then don't get the service), each of these TiVos represents yet another customer to them. Furthermore, you're paying the same amount of money if you're subscribing a 15 hour TiVo or a 500 hour TiVo.
Re:BFD! (Score:2)
Re:See, it's alright. (Score:2)
Re:I guess they... (Score:2)
Since Tivo makes money only on the subscription, why are you surprised that they'd want a subscription-only model?
I've seen very few people make real cases for buying a Tivo without the service. The service is what makes Tivo great. Without it, it's a pretty expensive VCR. I believe someone said that some other company will be selling digital VCRs that allow simply manual recording with no service in the future. Those people who only want that are encouraged to go that way. Tivo is about the service, and how it changes your Television viewing.
Re:They were just testing the waters... (Score:5)
C'mon guys, why do you HAVE to have a conspiracy EVERYWHERE? Are you really that paranoid? It's not like this is the first software release in the history of computing that bugs or unintended side effects, is it?
Tivos are nearly useless without the service anyway. There are less than 200,000 total sold. There's a small handful of people not using them with the service. They have ALWAYS said that they were going to eliminate the functionality of new units without the service, just as your cell phone won't work without a service, or your beeper. This isn't a change. So they started adding those things into 2.01 that would make the newer units more reliant on the service and nobody noticed that they would also affect the un-subscribed. Inadequate testing? Perhaps. Malicious intent? Not when they are doing now exactly what they told us they would do all along. Six months ago we were told that "new machines that ship with 2.01 will be more limited in what they can do without the service, but those machines that shipped with 1.3 will keep the abilities they have now" and guess what? That's exactly what they are doing. It's not hidden, it's not a conspiracy, they TOLD us what the plan was. They have a few bugs in the new software that make it less usable for those without the service, but they are going to fix those. Show me any significant program without bugs. We've been running Sendmail on the net for 20 years, is it bug free yet? Is it even security hole free yet? How about BIND? Apache? Linux? FreeBSD? Any of them 100% free of bugs?
Of course not. And now that we make consumer electronics with computers, we are likely to see similar bugs throughout their existence as well.
My Tivo hates my viewing habits (Score:4)
It got worse though. It decided to move away from its seat under the telly, and sit in MY chair. I only have the one. I have to sit under the telly. I can't even see the thing from there.
It gets worrse. I've recently been getting suspicious that my Tivo is making arrangements with my landlord to buy the buolding I live in. I think its trying to evict me.
I hope this serves as a warning to all potential TiVO buyers - Make sure you remain in control.
Re:I guess they... (Score:3)
How did this happen? Well, frankly, we don't usually really concentrate very much on the User Experience for non-subscribers. We did successfully anticipate that non-subscribers would care about manual recordings and we put a lot of effort into engineering and testing a grandfathered state - it is especially ironic that because we spent all our non-service testing effort on insuring that we preserved manual recordings that we failed to discover the other change
Which makes sense. They get money from the services, not hardware.
QUICK response? (Score:3)
We hope this quick response will assure you that we did not intend to change your experience as a non-subscriber, and that we take your concerns very seriously.
If I owned one of these things, I'd be returning it a la the Discount Tire commercial, where the old lady 'brings back' the tire when unsatisfied by throwing it through their front window.
I know some of the technology/car comparisons are a bit silly and overblown, but DO imagine a car that suddenly won't work, and the fix isn't due for 3 months.
It should be no more than a week to get a version of 1.3 into the hands of everyone who wants it.
TiVo's business... (Score:4)
But you don't want to pay for information that is free over the internet? It's not free in the first place. Most sites offering TV listings want some personal information and you have to deal with advertising. You pay for the listings in your paper when you buy the paper. The listings in the paper contain advertisments. For what, $10 a month TiVo delivers full listings to your TiVo unit, no adds, all sorted according to the TV service in your area.
When it's just one area, it's still alot of information. How many shows does just one TV station run in a week? Well, there are 336 30 minute time slots in a 7 day period. With 10 brodcast channels that's 3360 30 minutes time slots. With cable, well...that's a hell of a lot of information, and it all has to be localized, put into a format so that your TiVo canuse it, delivered via dialup...
It's a service. If you want it to be free, go set it up yourself. When you're finished, you see if you want to offer it for free.
If you're using a TiVo without a subscription, relize that your are not TiVo's primiary consern because you are not generating any revenue for them. TiVo already profited from your unit before your bought it. TiVo is being rather generous letting you upgrade at no cost, IMHO.