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Encryption Security

Encryption Market Opening Up 72

MeriaDuck writes "Found this article on Cryptome, the Clinton administration plans to announce next week that it will permit U.S. software companies to sell their most sophisticated encryption systems to countries in the European Union without any licensing or review." Well its a start anyway.
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Encryption Market Opening Up

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  • by Anonymous Coward
    Read carefully before cheering this one on guys, it's not as good as it sounds.

    This new action actually makes it much harder for Free/OSS software to contain the same strong encryption that it blindly allows for commercial software.

    This completely reverts the prior exception made for source code. It's really not good, and it's not supprising that Microsoft was the primary supporter of this new policy.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    I'm looking forward to the day in the not-too-distant future when anoynmity can be easily made illegal on the 'net. How? Because when public key cryptography is widely embraced, a requirement can be put in place that all transmissions be signed. Any unsigned traffic can be silently dropped at routing points, the way that packets in 192.168.x.x (see RFC 1918) are blocked.

    It will clear away a lot of the bullshit about privacy, eliminate much of the romantic anarchist drivel, and allow us all to get on with establishing our real authenticated identities online.

    Until then, of course, it's fun to diddle around with Anonymous Coward on this site.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Everything Siggy posts is redundant because we all know it's going to be karma-slut bullshit.

    It was a good moderation.
  • So, does this mean, for instance, that there'll be one version of Netscape -- the "domestic" version -- for everyone to download?

    Alex Bischoff
    ---

  • I already have an encrypted cellphone. It uses a protocol called GSM, of which the voice AND authorization data streams are BOTH encrypted.

    Encrypted poorly, however. GSM encryption was broken in 1998, quite easily. It seems the spooks got to the protocol designers. Check here [ee.duth.gr] for details. Further, the encryption is over-the-air only. Once on the land lines, the conversation can be tapped the usual way.

    Don't let the word "encryption" lull you into a false sense of security.


    ...phil

  • Cypherpunks and others predicted many years ago
    that the government would slowly relinquish
    control over crypto as more and more of a commercial market developed.

    PGP was never much more than a curiosity -- no
    one used it for large-scale commerce systems,
    and most of the users could be pointed to by
    the government as privacy nuts or criminals.

    SSL, despite inherent weaknesses, has made
    crypto essential in e-commerce. The e-commerce
    lobby (sites, vendors, end-users) exposed the
    masses to crypto, and now depends upon crypto.
    When users started demanding 40 or 128bit crypto
    to keep their credit card numbers secure, that's
    when crypto became widely deployed.

    The next step is building crypto into the very
    fabric of the Internet, in IPsec, and then making
    that a "checklist item" for purchasing decisions.
    Once people are only willing to buy products with
    security designed in, the government will have
    little choice but to allow its widespread use and
    export.

    (I'm waiting for encrypted cellphones, like
    those being designed by Starium [starium.com], to
    be available...)
  • pardon for not knowing the link offhand, but there was a case where the FBI was able to recover data that had been rewriten over approximately 100 times using such a tool. I remember reading a paper on this (I think it was at Counterpane Labs, but I could be wrong). I'll hunt for the URL and repost.

  • Finally American companies can compete in outside Markets for encryption software. I hope it is not too late for these companies to get a foot hold in the marketplace only time will tell.

  • For people who are serious about using encryption, the question is not whether in the future they will be able to use a method of encryption that can beat the methods of decryption then available, it is how long their secrets, transmitted today, will remain secret.

    Some forms of encryption are good for discouraging casual novices. Some take a little time and are fine for short-lived secrets. Some will cause the NSA to blink. Some will last for a good while.

    But the standard public-key encryption mechanism in use today will not survive the potential of quantum computers. So, for instance, digitally signed documents have a lifetime of a few decades before the signatures can be forged.

    This is fine for credit card purchases. It may not be fine for some kinds of legal contracts.

    Cheers,
    Ben
  • by Signal 11 ( 7608 ) on Sunday July 16, 2000 @10:59AM (#929441)
    What I'm waiting for is them to open up restrictions enough to let these guys [kerneli.org] get their patches added to the main linux kernel tree. I think it's a shame that linux is lagging behind OpenBSD due to our country's legal hangups over crypto. This is good news.. I just hope it's enough.
  • But the standard public-key encryption mechanism in use today will not survive the potential of quantum computers. So, for instance, digitally signed documents have a lifetime of a few decades before the signatures can be forged.

    Quite correct, but as I understand it symmetric-key cyphers aren't really at risk, provided you go to 256 bit key lengths (quantum computing can theoretically search a 256 bit in the same time a conventional computer can do a 128 bit key).

    Has anyone heard of any public-key cyphers that aren't easily crackable if a quantum computer is built?

  • I am unsure what you mean by this, since no actual quantum computer exists to make the comparison. Quantum factorization algorithms are known which have a different computational complexity than classical algorithms.

    Cracking good symmetric cyphers does not rely on factorization - the techniques for breaking them are quite different. A friend of mine who works on this stuff mentioned that quantum computers, if developed, would provide an algorithmic improvement for keyspace searches equivalent to halving the key length.

    Therefore, if you use a 256-bit key for a good symmetric cypher, you're still pretty likely to be safe, even from a quantum computer.

  • From the article:
    "Software experts said that although many new encryption systems cannot be broken, their U.S. makers are cooperating with federal law enforcement and intelligence agencies. Somewhere in the future, they said, are so-called quantum computers a billion times more powerful than existing home computers. These would be able to break the most sophisticated encryption systems available today."

    Haven't the anonymous software experts thought that their quantum computers will also allow for the existence of encryption systems far more sophisticated than those in existence today? Or do they think we have already reached "the end of cryptograhpy" (in the same sense we had reached "the end of phisics" in 1890)?

  • You are obviously correct, but about a different aspect of the problem. In the context of the article, the unnamed "software experts" were talking about the threat of encryption use by criminals, terrorists, etc. In this context, the time frame allowed is usually pretty small, days, weeks on the outer reach. There is very little use for the information about some bombing plans or drug shipment after the fact.
  • Yes, I have read Shor's paper and the papaers about quantum secure communication.

    But my point was altogether different. The so-called "software experts" were teorizing about the decryption possibilities of a future computer architecture without taking into account the encryption possibilities of the same architecture.
  • Well the executive branch may feel ok about easing up on the stupid crypto-export policies this particular week, but the IRS doesn't want 'em to now.
    http://www.wired.com/news/p olitics/0,1283,37573,00.html [wired.com]

    Each time one branch of the US govt wants to loosen up on the crypto regs, another branch starts complaining. Last time it was Janet Reno, and then Louis Freeh. Now the IRS.



  • >The IRS, DoJ (Reno) and the FBI (Freeh) all are part of the Executive..

    Whoops. I should have remembered that. Sigh.

    Well anyway I hope my point still gets across- when any one of power in the Federal govt. makes a crypto announcement about wanting to loosen regs, and then they get a bunch of phone calls from other angry feds and the new proposed policies end up in the circular file.

    Our silly crypto policies only hamstring US businesses from selling crypto products. It's not like the US is the only source of high end crypto products. When a foreign country wants to purchase crypto products they just go to some other foreign business. US businesses lose out.



  • These folks must have a yellow line down the middle of the floor so that they can find the rest rooms at high noon.

    Don't make the assumption that these people are stupid, they aren't. They are smarter than 95% of the public.

    They are perfectly aware that the North Koreans, and whoever else is the bad guy of the month, can download and use strong cryptography from the Internet. They aren't worried about geeks running some obscure operating system like Linux or OpenBSD.

    What they have successfully accomplished is preventing strong cryptography from becoming a transparent, easy-to-use component of commodity software like Outlook Express and Windows 98. They have also been extremely successful at keeping strong cryptography out of the standards for wireless telephones.

    Ask yourself, what percentage of my email and telephone calls use strong cryptography?

  • It seems to me that this would somehow indicate the start of an entirely new polictical structure within world affairs. It appears as those this is one of the first drastic foriegn policy changes occuring to the United States brought on by another World body. Just another sign that the United States is no longer the biggest player in this game of chess. The EU will simply replace the position the US had and also push foriegn policy to other countries, with their citizens in mind, not their citizens and everyone else. Oh well.
  • I suggest that the State Department provide a list of IP addresses which they want download refused for, and no more than that. It should be possible to get the addresses connecting "Cuba, Iran, Iraq, North Korea and others considered America's foes". This is sufficiently practical to manage and can be smoothly automated. Any more than that and I will certainly see it as excessive government interference in the private sector.
    You're kidding, right? I hope so. Your first paragraph stated that any terrorist can easily gain access to encryption software through alternative channels, or even from within the US itself (it isn't hard to visit the US with the sole intention of blowing up the World Trade Center).

    No, I'm not kidding. However the purpose is because I expect the US government to continue to have some kind of bureaucracy involved in the exporting process. That's the nature of the beast. Ideally there should be none at all. Realistically I expect there to be some, and my suggestion is what form that should be. Sorry, I should have made that clearer.

    Then you casually describe a process that is sufficiently practical to manage and can be smoothly automated. Yeah, right. "Government" and "smoothly automated" should never go together. And even if our government is as capable as you feel it is, to then maintain a list of IP addresses that are from "problem" countries is impossible. And even if it was possible and feasable, it could be easily circumvented:

    Of course you're right, it can easily be circumvented. The point I was making was that if the government is going to require we do something to prevent export to those countries, they should allow us to do it in a way that does not impose on those who are not in those countries. For example I just recently downloaded SecureCRT [vandyke.com] and had to fill in a form attesting that I was located in the United States. I want to get rid of that process altogether. The government may not want to get rid of all processes, hence my suggested alternative.

    There is no real solution. Imposing zone-type laws on the Internet will not work in the long run. The Internet was not designed with security as the foremost thought. Reliability and more importantly a de-centralized topology were the goals.

    In the long run, I expect that pro-business George W. Bush will become the next president, and these export restrictions will eventually evaporate. Even still, there will probably be some kind of restriction to those "hated" nations. I have no idea what they might be.

  • by Skapare ( 16644 ) on Sunday July 16, 2000 @11:49AM (#929452) Homepage
    In a speech before the Citizens Crime Commission of New York last July, FBI Director Louis Freeh warned that encryption systems in the wrong hands were a threat to the nation's security.

    Louis Freeh was never able to show that if the Unite States blocked all its encryption products from export, that this would result in terrorists being unable to get that encryption. His agenda was pure fantasy.

    "A terrorist operating without a lot of sophistication, targeting a hospital, a stock exchange, a power grid, or informational systems upon which we all depend poses all kinds of different, complex but imminent threats," Freeh said. "There is real danger in fantastic technologies that are at the beck and call of fairly unsophisticated operators."

    And these things are entirely possible to no less a degree even with a total ban on all export restrictions. But take a look and his reference to "fairly unsophisticated operators". That description sure sounds to me like it also fits script kiddies. With his logic, we should suspend free speech to stop such crime. Better yet, suspend the whole US Constitution. That is what many in the upper levels of law enforcement actually want.

    Software experts said that although many new encryption systems cannot be broken, their U.S. makers are cooperating with federal law enforcement and intelligence agencies. Somewhere in the future, they said, are so-called quantum computers a billion times more powerful than existing home computers. These would be able to break the most sophisticated encryption systems available today.

    Or, make new encryption systems which would have no hope of ever being broken.

    World Trade Center bomber Ramzi Yousef, for example, used over-the-counter encryption technology in his laptop computer, according to the FBI. It included two encrypted files that it took FBI experts more than a year to decipher, law enforcement officials said. Among his plans was one to blow up 11 U.S. airliners in the Western Pacific in one day.

    If he acquired this technology by means of encryption exported from the USA, then it might give the FBI some level of credibility here. If he did, but could have just as easily acquired it from somewhere else, that credibility is just shot back down. In fact, he was actually in the United States, and could have easily acquired the technology domestically. The only argument the FBI could logically derive from these events is that all encryption must be suppressed by all governments, and a massive world wide search conducted to expunge every bit of it from every corporation and individual on the planet. And we know how easily they could accomplish that. They probably know, too, so I wonder what their real agenda was, other than to just stir up emotions.

    Restrictions on U.S. exports to some others would continue. They include Cuba, Iran, Iraq, North Korea and others considered America's foes.

    It remains to be seen just what level of bureaucracy will be imposed on this export. The article says "sell". Does that mean we don't get to give it away (in reference to what is already legally free)? Just how much will we be required to put people through to let them download strong encryption software? Will we be able to contribute source code to crypto projects located outside the US?

    I suggest that the State Department provide a list of IP addresses which they want download refused for, and no more than that. It should be possible to get the addresses connecting "Cuba, Iran, Iraq, North Korea and others considered America's foes". This is sufficiently practical to manage and can be smoothly automated. Any more than that and I will certainly see it as excessive government interference in the private sector.

  • OpenBSD now has encryped swap space. The keys are randomly generated by the kernel and stored only in memory, so nothing in swap is accessible after a reboot. The same could be done (might be already) for other files (e.g. an O_CRYPT). Secure deletion is easy: fopen, flock, fstat (|| fseek, ftell, fseek), { fwrite, fseek } (until satisfied), unlink, flock, fclose. Relatively portable, too. It's a shame the GNU rm(1) doesn't have this option; perhaps I'll see if they're interested in the possibility.
  • by GC ( 19160 )
    fact is we don't want your crappy encryption software - ours is better than yours anyway.
  • by Tiro ( 19535 ) on Sunday July 16, 2000 @10:51AM (#929455) Journal
    Sell encryption technology?!

    Who needs to sell encryption technology when we have OpenBSD [openbsd.org]?

  • ...Crypto AG fiasco in which the Swiss(?) firm...

    Yepp, Swiss [crypto.ch] indeed.
  • like PGPDisk, and find it useful for large numbers of files. And really, it's the only option for my chosen platform (Macs)

    It's not the only option. If you look around you can still find CryptDisk (go for version 1.2.1). It's somewhat old, though very reliable. AFAIK, Will Price, the author, has been hired to write PGPdisk for Mac.

    Besides (still AFAIK) both CryptDisk and the PGPdisk version included with 6.0.2i suffer from the same problem: they are incompatible with MacOS 9. Alas this is the sole version of PGPdisk that was "mistakenly included" in PGP freeware...

  • They're still going to prohibit exporting encryption software to a number of countries. What's the point of that? Surely they've realised now that EVERONE has access to encryption anyway.

    Even if we pretend for a moment that Cubans, say are drooling at the thought of getting their hands on that wonderful American crypto software, they can obviously buy it via Europe.

    Even having realised they've lost they still want to play the same stupid game. These regulations are totally ineffective, it's going to be a complete waste of resources to even pretend to police them.
  • Cracking good symmetric cyphers does not rely on factorization - the techniques for breaking them are quite different. A friend of mine who works on this stuff mentioned that quantum computers, if developed, would provide an algorithmic improvement for keyspace searches equivalent to halving the key length.


    Thanks for taking the time to clarify this for me. Can you ask your friend for a reference on this? I am interested in reading more on the subject. Thanks.
  • quantum computing can theoretically search a 256 bit in the same time a conventional computer can do a 128 bit key.

    I am unsure what you mean by this, since no actual quantum computer exists to make the comparison. Quantum factorization algorithms are known which have a different computational complexity than classical algorithms. In principle, if/when quantum computers become technically realizable then keys of any length could be factored with enough time.

    Has anyone heard of any public-key cyphers that aren't easily crackable if a quantum computer is built?

    A class of encryption methods that may be safe from attack by quantum techniques is elliptic curve cryptography. Much less is known about these algorithms, and (to my knowledge) no quantum attack on elliptic curve crypto has been discovered. This is not the same as saying that they are safe from quantum attack, but they have the possibility of being safer than methods that rely on the difficulty of factoring large numbers.
  • ...still Britain doesn't have the same long tradition of sabotaging their own domestically produced crypto products, as well as international ones, that the U.S. does

    Oh yeah? What about the invention of public key/private key encryption at Bletchley Park which the UK government decided to sweep under the carpet for a few decades?

  • by Convergence ( 64135 ) on Sunday July 16, 2000 @01:37PM (#929462) Homepage Journal

    We've all heard of the nastiness with people snooping around our hard drives.. Since automated bootup's are important, I don't think it's practical to require a password JUST to decrypt stuff to start up the machine. Even if users can use encrypted loopback filesystems to encrypt stuff, there are other places where stuff can hide.

    Here's what I'd like for linux:

    Encrypted swap file. It doesn't get cleaned out regularily, there's no easy way TO clean it out, and it's something you can easily miss. As an alternative, clean it on boot and slowly overwrite unused pages. (Say, nuke one free page every X seconds.) Or encrypt and overwrite, to make things harder to backtrace.

    Secure delete. Have the ability to secure-delete files, on a per-file or per-partitian basis. (I'd nominate '/var' for this.) Or, have a way to slowly run through free harddrive space and nuke anything sitting there. Best yet, have both.

    Secure storage of old logfiles. Logfiles can be a goldmine, squid, httpd, mail, process accounting, lastlog, etc. You want to save them around, but you don't want anyone nosey to be able to look at them. How about secure deleting them and then running them through a user-chosen PGP key for storage, or making several different archival backups on different PGP key's. That way, I can keep the last week's logs on my pgp key, and secure-delete them after a week, while keeping the archival logs on a PGP key that isn't even physically located near the computer. (In a bank, or a friends house.)

    Encrypted /tmp. Let someone define a /tmp partitian that isn't intended to survive a reboot. That /tmp may be encrypted with a random key and then reformatted on each reboot. You can make a second /tmp2 which is formatted normally and is kept accross a reboot. This could be hacked with encrypted loopback and mke2fs it on bootup.

    None of these require a non-automatic bootup.

    For semi-important stuff that you don't want people to look at easily (shell history, other history, email), you can store it in an automatically-generated encrypted file. Each file is encrypted with a seperate key. The inode stores the file-key XOR'ed with a user-key, a group-key, a root-key and an 'any-key'. Having a root-key on every file means that the contents can be compromised if root's password is compromised. This isn't much of a problem because any really important files can be in an encrypted partitian. Leaving it out doesn't buy you much either.

    The group-key is stored in /etc/group. The user-key is an XOR between a number sitting in /etc/passwd and the MD5 hash of their password.
    This type of encryption is a good choice for something like ~/.bash_history, or ~/.ssh, or ~/.pgp. The 'any-key' is a the plaintext key, it exists if the file is readable to the public, It also must exist for any encrypted file that's required for bootup. (such file may be phsyically encrypted, but must be logically plaintext). All files are subject to normal access permission, and the above keys are altered appropriately and automatically on a chmod.

    As we still want to retain automatic boot, some files must remain physically unencrypted, or logically unencrypted. (encrypted with a key, but a key that's stored unencrypted on the drive.) log files in /var, for example. There are some reasons to keep all files physically encrypted; it makes it hard to trivially scan the drive for statistically interesting material. The drive superficially appears a morass of encrypted gibberish. :)

    Unless I'm mistaken, the above, or a variant of the above won't prevent automatic booting. Also, it doesn't require anything extra from user-level code and it'll keep even very nosey people away.

    Finally, you have encrypted filesystems. Real encrypted filesystems that are mounted manually by the user. These could be immune from everything but a hardware sniffer, or a root sniffer.

    Personally, I can't wait to see some or all of these.. First priorty for me is encrypted swap file, secure deletion, and secure storeage of old logfiles. There is already a (hackish) implementation of encrypted filesystems. With that, you can hack an encrypted /tmp. The transparently-encrypted filesystem is the most complicated, but would be sweet to have. :)
  • For example, why use a PGP binary provided by Network Associates when you could either download the full-strength PGPi version from overseas, or better yet if you actually know your code you could dload the source and compile it yourself. Getting a binary from an American company just adds one more layer of uncertainty to the mix.

    Perhaps because you want some of the extra features only found in the commercial binaries? I like PGPDisk, and find it useful for large numbers of files. And really, it's the only option for my chosen platform (Macs) because I lack the programming skills to make the free code work on my platform, so I'm stuck with their version.
    ______________________
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it!"

  • 6.02ckt which contains PGPdisk even though it's free--and the newer versions add no actual functionality over the 6.02 series, either; in fact, PGP hasn't changed all that much since 5.5 or so.

    Unfortunately, 6.02 does not work with MacOS 9. You have to upgrade to 6.5.2 for a compatible version, and the freeware does not come with PGPDisk.
    ______________________
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it!"


  • Kevin Mitnic(sp?)

    The Govt. probably decrypted it, found it contained nothing or could not find anything useful, and now to make everyone think they cannot decrypt stuff is keeping the machine on some flimsy idea of protecting the public...

    This assumes the govt has some intelegence, er ummm, never mind. What he said.

  • This is a bit off topic, but is it just me, or do our law enforcement officials seem to be getting a lot lazier lately?

    Every five seconds they are coming out with "easier" ways to find criminals and put them in jail. What happened to the old days with Columbo, where they actually did some investigating to solve a crime?

    The way I see it now is that the FBI just sits back and lets some snoopy program they wrote bring the criminals to them, which in my view is a tad bit unfair to us the tax payers. They write some program that not only does all the work for them, but even violates our privacy.

    Here is what I propose... as the FBI comes out with more and more restrictions and snooping programs, we take away more and more funding from them, since they won't need it to operate, since they have computers doing all the work. That way anytime somebody says "I don't like [insert name here]" they can just get a warrant, which will be approved in 30 seconds with some new eWarrant.gov web page since that would be "easier", and then just send a few agents to the house and arrest them.

    On a seperate note, doesn't anyone realize it's all about measures and counter-measures? We will always find a way to bypass their bull shit spying. But on the other hand they will always find a way to get past whatever we put up.
  • by billstewart ( 78916 ) on Sunday July 16, 2000 @09:31PM (#929467) Journal
    PGP's real importance was that you _could_ use it, and you could get it easily, and everybody rubbed the government's face in the fact that the laws against crypto publishing directly violated the First Amendment, plus Phil had the guts to stand up to them publicly, with good lawyers backing him. This not only had excellent PR value, but got a lot of people interested in crypto. From a more practical standpoint, it was Netscape's decision to include SSL, even with wimpy crypto, that moved the public perception of crypto from "something only spies and paranoids and occasional political activists use" to "of course I use it, how else would I send my credit card number across the Internet without getting ripped off!" Even now most of the public doesn't send much encrypted email (even the cypherpunks [inet-one.com] don't send huge amounts of encrypted email), but everybody knows you can, and everybody knows you should always use encrypted form for your credit cards and other sensitive personal information, because otherwise Hakk3rZ will steal it, and that's a good start. (Sigh - if you can't get the public to use a term correctly, at least you should exploit the heck out of their misuse :-)

    The real place that cryptography has been left out has been the Voice-over-IP telephony world. The de facto standard H.323 doesn't do it, though some of the newer protocols like SIP and MGCP provide hooks or full mechanisms for it, and most of the proprietary Internet telephony programs don't appear to support it either. This means that we're building an easily wiretapped infrastructure for international calls, and starting to build one for US domestic calls as well (and at least in the UK, wiretapping ISPs is easier legally than wiretapping telephones.) On the other hand, H.323 is somewhat of a lowest-common-denominator protocol, and the newer protocols will probably be adopted because of increased functionality; until then we'll need to get IP telephony services to adopt IPSEC.

    IPSEC is still only marginally ready for prime time, but capabilities and compatibility of free [freeswan.org] and commercial implementations are improving, and there's substantial business demand pulling them. The automotive industry ANX network [anxo.com] jumpstarted it, but the cost advantages of dial internet compared to running your own modem pools are one of the big drivers, and for some industries, the ability to use the internet instead of private frame or ATM networks for corporate traffic is also a big economic win, though that's more dependent on communication patterns.

    I suspect end-to-end encryption for cellphones will be a small niche market for a long time, as opposed to encrypting the airlink from the phone to the cell site. What may change it is the obvious interconnection between voice over IP and cellphones merging into internet telephony to the cellphone. Cellphones already digitize and compress voice, which is one of the hard parts, but cellphones take a telephony-centered view of mobile connectivity which will take some work to merge with the still-evolving mobile IP technology. The obvious first level of integration is gateways between the cellphone carriers and the internet voice carriers, which makes it easy to still charge by the minute for cellphones. In countries that use handiphone service (mostly Asia - it's the "you can use the phone anywhere but we don't switch cells, so you can't move very far" dumb cheap technology), it wouldn't be too hard to integrate a handiphone base station with DSL so anybody could run their own microcell and get their cut of the cellphone charges, which has viral marketing possibilities that are harder to implement in a usable-while-moving true cellular system.

  • srm is a "secure" rm
    it overwrites the data on the HD in addition to unlinking the inode. However, I beleive if one were extremely dedicated, it would sometimes be possible to recover such data.
  • It was Mitnick. Of course he is not getting the computer back (if you're involved in a computer related crime your equipment can be confiscated permanently) but the he still was asked to turn over the encryption keys so that they could decrypt the data..
  • What is your problem? This post was not redundant. Not interesting maybe but not redundant. What the hell are your problems? You know sometimes I'm glad for the bitchslap.
  • by TheReverand ( 95620 ) on Sunday July 16, 2000 @12:56PM (#929471) Homepage
    I got an idea, why don't you get a life? You just wish you could have a +1 bonus like us elite uber-posters do. Idiots like you who seem to think that the karma system affords you something outside of this web page.....

    Scene: Linux Expo, Andover Booth, Rob and the gang are playing Diablo 2 on their win2k boxes.

    Rob"Guys, go to tux screensaver here comes some SlashBots!!!"

    All hit their hotkeys. Up comes Joe Slashbot, With a CD full of Slashcode, looking for an autograph.

    Joe"Hey guys, uhh remember me? I uhh, like posted that +5 insigtful comment about why Microsoft will never be as cool as Linux?"

    Rob"Yeah sure right uh huh."

    Joe"Yeah my karma is up over thirty now, and I have the +1 bonus!! Now everyone can see what I right!!

    Rob and company nod and smile, and begin to crack jokes as the Slashbot wanders off. Once he is safely out of range Rob goes back to checking his E*Trade account, and the rest go right back to Diablo 2.

    End Scene

  • Well the executive branch may feel ok about easing up on the stupid crypto-export policies this particular week, but the IRS doesn't want 'em to now. http://www.wired.com/news/p olitics/0,1283,37573,00.html

    Each time one branch of the US govt wants to loosen up on the crypto regs, another branch starts complaining. Last time it was Janet Reno, and then Louis Freeh. Now the IRS.

    Minor detail, but there are only three branches of the federal government, the Executive, Congress and the Judiciary. The IRS, DoJ (Reno) and the FBI (Freeh) all are part of the Executive, they can't countermand what the top Exec. says. (They can try to influence his decisions, but that's it.)

  • Do you really think the NSA/FBI/CIA would trade the knowledge that they can break the most sophisticated encryption schemes for a few court cases?

    Remember how the British let the germans bomb London in order to keep this kind of knowlege from the enemy?

    No...I cannot expect the NSA/FBI/CIA to give such knowledge away just so Janet Reno can put another notch on her belt.
  • Do a search on pgpi.org for free versions of PGP for the Mac which contain PGPdisk. PGPdisk was included in the free/international versions up to, I believe, 6.02. Personally, I use the Windows version of 6.02ckt which contains PGPdisk even though it's free--and the newer versions add no actual functionality over the 6.02 series, either; in fact, PGP hasn't changed all that much since 5.5 or so. I have a friend who also uses Macs, and we encrypt all our e-mails to one another, and I pointed him to pgpi.org where he got just what I was talking about: Mac binaries with PGPdisk included.
  • by Sir_Winston ( 107378 ) on Sunday July 16, 2000 @11:32AM (#929475)
    There's zero chance that I'd trust the U.S. companies to have not made deals with the NSA/FBI/CIA triad, especially if they've been exporting crypto even before the relaxation of export restrictions. It was common practice for the NSA to send a man around to U.S. crypto vendors hinting that if they'd make a few changes to the code here, or alter the S-Box there, they'd get an export license for their 128-bit etc. product.

    Granted, there are a few noteworthy cases of the U.S. tainting foreign crypto vendors, like the Crypto AG fiasco in which the Swiss(?) firm inserted a back door which allowed the U.S. access to messages encrypted with their very, very expensive hardware crypto devices. But I'd still trust a European vendor over an American one, though these days the important thing is having access to the source code.

    For example, why use a PGP binary provided by Network Associates when you could either download the full-strength PGPi version from overseas, or better yet if you actually know your code you could dload the source and compile it yourself. Getting a binary from an American company just adds one more layer of uncertainty to the mix.

    My favorite product for disk encryption is a perfect example. There are many American companies which offer encryption utilities, but why use one of those when I can download Scramdisk from www.scramdisk.clara.net along with the source code? It isn't GPL, but the source is still available for inspection and for personal use. Scramdisk comes from Britain, whose own crypto regulations are getting insane, but still Britain doesn't have the same long tradition of sabotaging their own domestically produced crypto products, as well as international ones, that the U.S. does.

    Buying U.S. crypto, unless you have access to the source code and the skills to verify it, is just asking for trouble.
  • (I'm waiting for encrypted cellphones, like
    those being designed by Starium, to
    be available...)


    I already have an encrypted cellphone. It uses a protocol called GSM, of which the voice AND authorization data streams are BOTH encrypted.

    Thank you.

    --
  • The encryption was broken if you had the SIM card in your possession for about 8 hours. The exploit involved asking its identity about 150,000 times, each with a different salt.

    GSM security has yet to be broken over-the-air.

    --
  • (note, this is a US Centric posting, sorry!)

    As I recall, one of the arguments his attorney was going to make was that forcing him to divulge this info in order to recover his property would violate his constitutional protection against self-incrimination.
    While it hasn't been tested in court, many experts such as Mike Godwin believe the 5th amendment will not protect you from being forced to divulge your encryption keys and/or passphrases. They believe that encryption is like a safe and the passphrase is like the combination; there is lots of case law saying that safe combinations do not count as testimony and are not protected by the 5th amendment.

    Oh yeah, tricky stuff like "My passphrase is 'I killed Jane Doe' so I can't be forced to divulge it" won't fly in court. Judges don't think that kind of thing is cute at all. If you refuse to obey a Judge's order, you can be held in Contempt of Court indefinitely. However, after a few years the Judge might release you if he believes there isn't a reasonable chance of you coughing up the keys. If the alternative is a mandatory-minimum 25 year or more sentence resulting from the newly discovered evidence, it might be a worthwhile strategy.

    It's important to use perfect forward secrecy whenever possible. In perfect forward secrecy, the private/public key pair is not used to encrypt the session key, but only to authenticate it. The session key is then emphemeral and never stored. That means later recovery of the private key will not allow the attacker to decrypt previously recorded communication (only conduct future man-in-the-middle attacks and other authentication based attacks). Of course, this is not terribly useful for stored data. That's why you should store your sensitive data in your brain, or Sealand [havenco.com], where it is out of reach of the court.

    Burris

  • I'm waiting for encrypted cellphones, like those being designed by Starium, to be available...

    Try GSM. It's heavily encrypted and in use all over the world. It's been cracked, but the encryption is very hard to crack so your phonecalls are mostly safe.

  • OK, lets all repeat together: "This makes a difference". These folks must have a yellow line down the middle of the floor so that they can find the rest rooms at high noon. The "black hats" who want to encrypt things for bad purposes have already downloaded, obtained, etc. all the software they could ever want.. When will the US govt, the Austrailian govt, and all the rest of them realize that the net makes prohibitions of this sort totally ludicrous? Information used to be vaguely containable since you could physically intercept it and/or the means of trnasmission were fairly bulky. These days that is pretty much out of the question. Ah, my tax dollars at "work".
  • The regulations were loosened enough for Linux to include crypto a while ago. Mozilla already has crypto for example. What's holding things back is Linus AFAIK.
  • OpenBSD does most, if not all of this very easily.
  • About the three guys (I think it was three..) Who got tattoos of some relatively confidential encryption codes. They weren't allowed to leave the country.

    I dont know their names, but I think it was about 2 years ago. Anyway, just thought that was amusing/interesting, and is a pretty good example of why I hate America. Not that I needed any more.

  • I am amazed that you still didnt get it. I think it is fairly simple: The NSA is doing extensive espionage through projects like echolon. This is uses up a lot of computing power, since you have spoken words (from tapping any telephone they can get their hands on through satelite communication, underwater cables -> submarines, or old cold war facilities all over Europe). The data is used in American interest (security and, of course economical). The US government agencies have a long history of working in the interest of American businesses (think Guatemala, American Fruit and the CIA).
    So tapping and screening email with very advanced and sophisticated software taking certain priorities for certain adresses is a thing that is very easy and done, of course, by the NSA in American interest (again both security and economical).
    Now most of the standard email software (think MS, think Outlook, think Eudora, Netware...) comes from the US. Without an export ban encryption would have been a standard feature included in any mail programm by now. This would pose a very big problem for that kind of extensive searching. Since the whole American Industry benefits from encryption not being a standard tool, the feds just made a simple equation: Hurt the software industry a little and let the domestic encryption industry fall behind, but let the rest of the industry benefit from extensive industrial espionage (which is very important in High Tech, but also in all other sectors). As long as there are at least some people out there not encrypting what they think is not really valuable the equation goes against lifting any ban. I guess by now there are enough foreign agencies doing the same thing and therefore balancing the (Israel for example) equation and even though encrytion hasent gone mouseclick yet enough people use it for anything that might be considered to be of any value that making encrytion software standard is the right choice. I dont think this sounds paranoid, but feel free to make up your own mind about it. Since most of you are working for the High Tech industry that all might not be relevant any more since competitors from outside the US probabely use very strong encryption or dont send anything over the Internet any more.
  • "Harmful" is just their excuse for keeping it, while they try to force the guy to disclose the key. They claim they can't turn it over until they examine it for things like nuclear bomb secrets or some such rubbish. What they're really after is incriminating evidence that would support their prosecution of the guy for whatever suspected crime caused them to seize it in the first place. I've now forgotten what that was, but my best guess is cracking other computer systems.
  • Perhaps they've cracked it but they can't use it unless the guy gives the code.

    You mean they already know what's on it, that's it's incriminating, but don't want to reveal that they have the ability to crack the code? Maybe, but it seems far-fetched. If that were true, they'd know the guy could never turn the key over to them, and that their using the computer as leverage would be ineffective. In which case, their only options are either to forget about using the computer contents or reveal that they've broken the code. The fact that they're not letting the matter drop makes me believe that they haven't cracked the code and desperately want what's on that computer.
  • I don't think it was Mitnik, since conditions of his parole says he can't touch a computer for years to come, and this guy is someone they're after right now. If it was his computer, he couldn't have it anyway.
  • The Gov. can already break all these encryptions

    Not true. There's an ongoing case (sorry, forget who) where the U.S. government won't return a computer they seized because the guy encrypted his hard disk and won't give them the key. They want to make sure it doesn't contain 'harmful' material. As I recall, one of the arguments his attorney was going to make was that forcing him to divulge this info in order to recover his property would violate his constitutional protection against self-incrimination. Don't know if this will fly, but my point is, if they can decrypt everything, why haven't they in his case? They clearly think he's hiding something prosecutable, so they have a great incentive to bring all their powers to bear.
  • If he acquired this technology by means of encryption exported from the USA, then it might give the FBI some level of credibility here. If he did, but could have just as easily acquired it from somewhere else, that credibility is just shot back down. In fact, he was actually in the United States, and could have easily acquired the technology domestically.

    I couldn't agree more.

    I suggest that the State Department provide a list of IP addresses which they want download refused for, and no more than that. It should be possible to get the addresses connecting "Cuba, Iran, Iraq, North Korea and others considered America's foes". This is sufficiently practical to manage and can be smoothly automated. Any more than that and I will certainly see it as excessive government interference in the private sector.

    You're kidding, right? I hope so. Your first paragraph stated that any terrorist can easily gain access to encryption software through alternative channels, or even from within the US itself (it isn't hard to visit the US with the sole intention of blowing up the World Trade Center).

    Then you casually describe a process that is sufficiently practical to manage and can be smoothly automated. Yeah, right. "Government" and "smoothly automated" should never go together. And even if our government is as capable as you feel it is, to then maintain a list of IP addresses that are from "problem" countries is impossible. And even if it was possible and feasable, it could be easily circumvented:

    • telnet to Europe.
    • Transfer files from <insert Evil country here> to Europe.
    • Transfer files from Europe to the US.

    There is no real solution. Imposing zone-type laws on the Internet will not work in the long run. The Internet was not designed with security as the foremost thought. Reliability and more importantly a de-centralized topology were the goals.

    That's not to say it will never happen.. I'm saying, don't hold your breath.

  • Wait a second, are you guys saying you actually want these other countries to purchase and control high-level encryption that can be used against us? Why in the hell would we want to do that? Personally, I *like* being on the top of the heap!

    It's akin to selling nuclear weapons to Hussein ("Buy five, get the sixth free"). Let them build their own encryption schemes if they want. (Or let them figure out how to use PGP with 4000-bit keys).

    Besides, any college comp-sci student can put together their own encryption scheme. Hell, my project this semester was to put together a 256-bit scheme of DES (piece of cake...) Are we saying that there aren't hackers out there in other countries that can't do that? They have to buy our schemes?

    Hogwash.

  • Wait, we can't allow encryption to fall into the hands of non-white people! Oh wait, europeans are white... so maybe it's okay.

    In the future, the USA will probably not be the best country on the planet. And at that time people will be saying:
    - Americans used to think that only they had a right to encryption. What arrogant bastards.
    - Americans arrogantly continued to use the illogical lbs-feet-fahrenheit system while the rest of the world went metric. What arrogant bastards.
    - Americans ... (feel free to add more here)
  • Folks, if you want rational technical decisions you need to clear the way politically. If Clinton or Gore unilaterally decided to end all export restrictions on all crypto, the GOP cold warriors would have a political field day. The very first encrypted e-mail sent by Osama bin Laden (after repeal of restrictions) would put us in weeks of congressional investigations and calls for an independent counsel.

    Tech folk who vote for Republicans or laze out on voting have only themselves to blame. I wish they would just stop whining about it as this topic is starting to become very tiresome.

  • it was Mitnik.
  • Haven't the anonymous software experts thought that their quantum computers will also allow for the existence of encryption systems far more sophisticated than those in existence today?

    Quantum computers can facilitate perfectly secure communications (even key exchange) with man-in-the-middle detection via polarized light.

    Some basic information on quantum computers is available at this link [bangor.ac.uk].

    Basically, quantum computers could be good at cracking rsa encryption because of their exponentially smaller time-space requirements in searching for a factorization. Here is Shor's famous paper on the subject. [arxiv.org].

    Quantum computers are not just "faster" computers, they are a different beast altogether. Sometimes, they may act as infinitely parallel devices, and for other operations, they may be totally worthless.
    ---

  • Ah, well then, they are dumb :)

    In fact, that bit that starts out "Somewhere in the future.." doesn't even make sense in the context of the rest of the article.

    And besides, I believe there are classical algorithms that are just as hard to break via quantum algorithms as by classical methods.

    I think we would see quantum computing coming from a long ways away and the industry would migrate to a less susceptible protocol fairly quickly. Besides which, at first, I doubt it would be very cheap to own or operate, I don't think too many people are concerned if the NSA happens to see their credit card number from their last Amazon.com order. Unless, of course, the NSA becomes desperately short on funds.
    ---

  • Europe ? did you say they can buy it from Europe ?

    I seem to remember that our friends north of the border trade pretty freely with the Cubans.

    - just another cosmic ray --
  • Yes and don't forget Linus "bolshie" Torvalds, Richard Stalinman and Alan "close personal friend of Arthur Scargill" Cox.
  • you should kill osm off. make up a new character. the whole supposed natalie portman obsession thing is getting really old. i don't know, osm seems too real, not rediculuous enough anymore.
    ---
  • Congratulations, good sir. You are first. I will do the honor of posting a +1 below your post so that for a brief time those who come after me may see you in your finest hour.
    ---
  • FAWKING NSA!!
    ---
  • Crays? Try a 256-qubit NMR processor coupled with an unbelievably gigantic cylinder consisting of ~250 million reversible microcontrollers. Yeah, they have it. Trust me.
    ---
  • ...that the NSA has backdoors into any MS encryption products anyways.
    ---
  • This is BS. Quantum computers are useful in only a very narrow range of problems. It is very easy to create an encryption algorithm not defeatable in in asymptotically less spacetime than on a classical non-reversible architecture.
    ---

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