FBI Releases Its Files On DEF CON: Not Amused By Spot-the-Fed 102
v3rgEz writes: Not surprisingly, the FBI has compiled reports on notorious hacker gathering DEF CON, now released thanks to a Freedom of Information Act request. The files detail the lack of amusement at the Spot-the-Fed game, as well as which conference tracks attract the most interest. "In a bit of FOIrony, the file contains a copy of the Spot the Fed contest rules, including the facetious aside to feds offering t-shirts in exchange for agency coffee mugs."
Why be mad (Score:1)
Is only game.
But really, why would they get mad?
It would be better if they played along and actually tried to hide as best as they could so they could IMPROVE on being incognito.
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It would be better if they played along and actually tried to hide as best as they could so they could IMPROVE on being incognito.
Guess the FBI must believe in security through obscurity.
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Arguably that's the worst thing they could do: Provide insights into how they try and remain undetected when amongst people who are trying to develop strategies and insights to detect them when there's nothing of value to gain. They'd be better off intentionally fitting stereotypes and doing a poor job of hiding at DefCon, then it might lure people into a false sense of security.
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I just read the document...I saw no reaction from the feds at all. There wasn't event commentary. Just a list of things, including the rules of the game. Really, it's just "attached is the list of rules for "spot the fed."" And that's it.
We are not amused (Score:2)
We are also not amused by agencies spying...
wasted efforts (Score:2, Funny)
Why not play spot the foreign intelligence agents? Wouldn't their mugs be more intriguing to obtain? I mean, they probably have listening devices built into them that are activated by hot water or microwave ovens.
Re:wasted efforts (Score:5, Funny)
They are at the Kaspersky booth
Silly fascists have no sense of humor (Score:5, Funny)
someone needs to throw a pie at em, liven things up a bit : )
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I think the corporate fascist thugs in FireFly like blueberry pie, explains the hands
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Throw a pie at a fed, get life imprisonment for attempted murder of a federal agent plus a bunch of other bullshit, trumped up, double-dipped charges.
Re:Silly fascists have no sense of humor (Score:4, Insightful)
Throw a pie at a fed, get life imprisonment for attempted murder of a federal agent plus a bunch of other bullshit, trumped up, double-dipped charges.
Unless you're black, in which case they'll just flat out murder you.
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Does that mean that other countries are EXTREMELY EXTREMELY CORRUPT? Because I don't actually have to regularly bribe people here to get things done.
Re:U.S. government is EXTREMELY CORRUPT. (Score:4, Insightful)
No, it just means that you are not actually doing anything of any importance or interest.
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Just remember that as the cost of surveillance gets lower and lower, so does the hurdle of "importance". Eventually it'll get to the point where your life is a game of nickel slots for the agents who've got nothing better to do with their time and figure they'll get 5 cents of entertainment from it.
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Tell that to people in the US who had their cash, car or even house seized [wikipedia.org] because it might be connected to a crime. Traveling with $10000 cash? Surely that must be drug money, no matter how plausible your excuse is, we'll take it to buy game consoles, zambonis or margarita machines. You can always try to get it back by hiring a lawyer and going to court, good luck.
Re:U.S. government is EXTREMELY CORRUPT. (Score:5, Insightful)
We are seeing many extreme examples of U.S. government corruption.
Uh... what other governments in supposedly non-corrupt jurisdictions respond to "Freedom Of Information Act" requests with ... actual information?
Try getting information on e.g. "Pussy Riot" out of the Putin government.
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Plenty of governments in Europe don't have secret courts to decide the fate of people who are forced to keep quiet under the threat of violence. I don't think Russia has them, but it wouldn't hurt you to have higher standards than "well, at least Obama hasn't sent me to the Gulag yet".
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Secret courts? Are you talking about the FISA court? Those proceedings are indeed kept confidential but it is hardly secret. As a matter of fact it has been around since 1978. Any information collected under the auspices of a FISA warrant cannot be used in any court against any defendant. And Russia uses it's transparent judicial system to efficiently prosecute anyone who dares challenge the state or attempts to organize political protests. The fact is the Russian or Chinese judicial systems are opaque and
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At no time did I say the US deserves a free pass for it's actions. But that same free pass is constantly being extended to countries such as Russia, NK, and Iran. It's come down to nobody can do any wrong and if they are doing something wrong it was because the US forced their hands.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P... [wikipedia.org]
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Try getting information on e.g. "Pussy Riot" out of the Putin government.
If you use Putins Russia as an example for when your government has gone too far then you don't have any stopping points until you get there.
There is always someone who is worse so if you use someone worse as an argument for a behavior you might just as well go full Godwin and say that everything is fine until you hit Nazi Germany.
This is why we don't accept the "someone else gets to do that" argument from 8-year olds. We expect them to be better than the worst they can find.
I'm not in a position to say wha
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Eh? Perhaps I'm mis-reading your sentence, but FOIAs are quite commonplace throughout the developed world. And yes they often return useful information.
Try doing a FOIA for info on Anwar al-Awlaki, notorious freedom of speech abuser up until the point he got drone striked. See how far you ge
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...have no sense of humor that they're aware of, anyway. I personally find them quite amusing from time to time.
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Written by someone who doesn't know what "sense of humour" means.
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Foster: Yeah, and we're not gonna fall for a banana in the tailpipe.
Axel Foley: [mocking him] You're not gonna fall for the banana in the tailpipe? It should be more natural, brother. It should flow out, like this - "Look, man, I ain't fallin' for no banana in my tailpipe!" See, that's more natural for us. You been hanging out with this dude too long. [points at penny loafer, brown suit wearing white guy]
Spot the Fed comments in TFA were pretty tame (Score:4, Informative)
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Right, it pretty much amounts to "They have a spot the fed contest, details attached".
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The feds I've talked to at conferences generally don't mind, as long as there's no associated publicity that goes outside the conference -- that is, they don't want to be on someone's blog, and especially don't want to show up on a news site. Probably because they're at the conference on the government dime.
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Lol, that was my first year going there at the Riv. Someone also replaced an ATM there with a fake one to skim cards and it was spotted within half an hour. I guess some attendees work with ATMs and spotted it. From then on all ATMs at the Riv were turned off during the conference.
Now during DefCon weekend the Riv hosts RollerCon, hundreds of chicks in roller skates skating in circles. Accidentally walked through the Riv a couple years ago and got to see it.
Re:Spot the Fed comments in TFA were pretty tame (Score:5, Interesting)
The feds I've talked to at conferences generally don't mind, as long as there's no associated publicity that goes outside the conference -- that is, they don't want to be on someone's blog, and especially don't want to show up on a news site. Probably because they're at the conference on the government dime.
Yup. Those could be a CLE (Career Limiting Event). For the Feds, especially those with an interest in tech, such events are a low stress event and can be fun; even if they envy some of the tech as they have to work with tech that often is described as yesterday's technology tomorrow. The ones I've worked with have good senses of humor and, contrary to the opinions voiced here, have no desire to trample on anyone's rights.
Re:Spot the Fed comments in TFA were pretty tame (Score:4, Insightful)
It's called research. Police types going to one of those events will never be in trouble as long as they write a follow up report and attend a debrief if requested. In fact they would receive browny points for doing so. So feel free to attend them all, see if you can be spotted but do not forget the follow up observational report, including whether you were or not you were spotted, how you were spotted and whether or not you traded a mug for a T shirt (ain't nothing wrong with that, unless the mugs were not provided for that purpose ie not stolen). Showing a sense of humour ie having fun when you are annoying some and just some people, promotes good relations with the public. Two way street there, fellows. When it comes to computer crime the best resources is not the FBI (most certainly not the NSA the NSA are foolishly proud to be law breakers) but a public that will support the efforts of quality responsible policing. So open a booth and hand out, no wait, swap mugs and a good T-shirt for naughty T-shirts (do not forget a biological containment device for the sweaty T-shirts).
Is being abused, but they're nice guys (Score:5, Insightful)
> The ones I've worked with have good senses of humor and, contrary to the opinions voiced here, have no desire to trample on anyone's rights.
Generally true--you've mostly got a lot of really good guys working intelligence. Most of the concern around massive surveillance--and part of the problem they really have a problem understanding it--is not what the guys in control of it now *do*, it's the *potential* for the wrong guy or guys to use it for evil.
Right now you have some *REALLY* sketchy stuff going on even with good guys in charge. Most notably, you've got a problem in that it's being used against criminals indirectly, which is a gross violation of the rights of a lot of criminals. Think parallel construction type projects. Wasn't there a big treasure trove of tax evasion data that mysteriously appeared a while back? Here we go: http://www.politico.com/mornin... [politico.com]
That *is* almost certainly our government or governments colluding to violate the rights of criminals, but the people doing it don't *care* because it's criminals.
I am a little upset about that because it's unconstitutional and because we overcriminalize generally, so almost everyone is breaking the law and they have something on everyone if they care to use it.
I am *much* more concerned with the potential for misuse not with the generally good guys dealing with it today, but by the bad guys who come in tomorrow, or the good-ish guys who get too tempted knowing how much easier it would be if they blackmail a senator or two based on knowledge of who they've slept with or what their daughter was up to on spring break. You're fundamentally dealing with power politics with an apparatus that could put a man like Frank Underwood in control of the country for decades, all without real transparency or accountability.
Most politicians don't have anywhere near that level of savvy--we are mostly saved by a combination of incompetence and a lot of really great guys in the intelligence community who would go a long way to prevent that kind of thing if they find out about it--but if we don't put incredibly good *processes* in place, engineered to prevent that kind of takeover, then it *will* happen if it has not already. Think what J. Edgar Hoover could have done with that information. Think what McCarthy did without it, and how much worse it could have been.
Re:Spot the Fed comments in TFA were pretty tame (Score:4, Informative)
Looks like typical bureaucratic language. I think there is some kind of law that says all reports must be written in in passive voice and with no humor at all. I'd bet some of the Feds found Spot the Fed humorous...
Passive voice effectively disclaims responsibility, and disclaims chain of responsibility, by making a statement without anyone owning it. It's also frequently used as an argument-without-evidence technique.
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Well played, sir. Well played.
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But, honestly, anybody old enough (by which I mean over around 30) who had a decent enough education had passive voice hammered into us for many many things.
Pretty much anything which was intended to be a factual reporting of something is supposed to be in passive voice.
So much so that when Microsoft introduced their annoying grammar checker it would give me warnings that I was writing in passive voice. Unfortunatel
Re: Spot the Fed comments in TFA were pretty tame (Score:2)
Re: Spot the Fed comments in TFA were pretty tame (Score:2)
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Indeed.
I went to DefCon 2005, and got spotted. It was quite friendly. During one of the keynotes, someone shouted out that they had spotted a fed, and pointed at me - then I was asked up on stage for a series of Q&A.
A military haircut, shirt tucked into your pants, and wearing socks with sandals was apparently enough of a giveaway. I did get a "I'm the Fed" T-shirt, and it was quite fun.
Spot-the-Nerd game (Score:1)
This "Spot-the-Fed game" is stupid - don't kid yourselves k
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This is the same FBI who in the 1950's spent two years investigating the song Louie Louie and the performers and fans of The Kingsmen and came up with what they usually come up with; nothing of interest. Scully and Mulder are a fantasy. The FBI comes to DEF CON because they are about 10 years behind the rest of the world in cybersecurity ops. Plain and simple, the private sector is many years beyond what we currently think of as their current state. i.e. they are hiding any really new ideas and gear for "se
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Anyway, as i wrote, i think they are basically there to protect the convention/conference, as it does with any large gathering of people - if a convention/conference about Su
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No. The FBI mandate does not include nor condone protection. They enforce the law once it is broken. Nothing more.
YES - (in this case) some intelligence, but mostly just "usual" convention-protection: FBI Quick Facts (and from there many more info) [fbi.gov].
Re:Spot-the-Nerd game (Score:5, Funny)
Holy (f)uck(ing) p(ar)en(t)he(ses) ... (what) t(h)e ((fuck)) is (wr)on(g) wi(t)h (u)??
It's English, not LISP.
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Holy (f)uck(ing) p(ar)en(t)he(ses) ... (what) t(h)e ((fuck)) is (wr)on(g) wi(t)h (u)??
It's English, not LISP.
Sorry dude, you are right, i was also writting some code (not LISP thank God!), and... it just happened! But to be honest i usually overuse parentheses... sorry.
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Look. He's just really proud of his nation. If you weren't American (like me. I'm pretty proud of my homeland i.e. Australia) then you'd be reminding everyone where you come from as well!
It's something us non-Americans (i.e. Australians, like me) do so we know whose opinion to actually pay attention to.
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Look. He's just really proud of his nation.
We call that irony.
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Look. He's just really proud of his nation.
We call that irony.
We Greeks call "irony"... "irony"!
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Maybe it's time to expand ... (Score:2)
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"When four sit down to conspire, three are government agents, and one is a fool."
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It was really funny watching the local violent anarchists tear each other apart with suspicions and accusations after a few of them were arrested for environmental terrorism. Their group went from over 20 down to under 5 and the arrests were still happening. In the end, one thing became clear: none of the people they were accusing of being the "mole" really was.
Looking back now, the "confidential informant" probably wasn't even a member of their group, but some NSA guy in a data center somewhere.
The lesson,
We are not amused (Score:3)
ss (Score:1)
When I wore the black hat and did time (thanks egold) it was the SS and not the FBI that found me. Does the SS get any special treatment at those events?
PS,
No, I am not in the black hat business anymore.
Re: ss (Score:1)
Basically you would own virtual gold (that was backed by real gold supposedly). Unbeknownst to many, the feds in essence 'took it over' claiming it was used for money laundering, and tracked down a number of people. Many cases were closed for years because the feds didn't want people to know they ran the site. I'm sure Wikipedia has a decent article about egold. It probably vanished somewhere around d 2008 I'm guessing. I sold credit cards on dark market back then and used egold for everything and would cas
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Just a Suburban, you're penny ante! Get some black helicopters hovering around your place and we'll be impressed
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Pffft, everyone knows they use WHITE minivans.
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Most of you have no clue what the FBI is really about.
I just typed a bunch of stuff that would have shocked some of you but I thought better of posting it, because I don't need any more visits from black Suburbans.
And how do you know they aren't recording what you type via a powerful microwave key-logger anyway?
As someone who spotted a Fed.. (Score:1)
I'm loving this article! Think it was 14 or 15 and "spotted" a fed, tried to chat him up and tell him about the game. He got up and *RAN* out of the talk, and out of the entire conference. Didn't see him back the entire time..
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Do people always flee the scene when you try and chat them up?
I Spotted the Fed (Score:2)
Defcon 2, Sahara Hotel. 1 of 5.
Who actually attends the conference? (Score:1)
Best Spot the Fed Story (Score:1)
The woman gets up and picks out the Fed. When asked how she knew, she became sheepishly quiet. After some prodding she admitted sleeping with him and while he was still asleep she went through his wallet and found his ID.
Counter spying at its best!!