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China Expands Cyberspying In US, Report Says 186

Posted by samzenpus
from the what-do-you-got-there dept.
An anonymous reader writes "A new report published by The US-China Economic and Security Review Commission wags a finger at the People's Republic of China for conducting Internet-borne espionage operations against United States high-tech companies. The paper, written by defense giant Northrop Grumman, provides a detailed case study of one such intrusion that moved large volumes of sensitive tech data out of a US firm in 2007. From a Wall Street Journal article, '"The case study is absolutely clearly controlled and directed with a specific purpose to get at defense technology in a related group of companies," said Larry Wortzel, vice chairman of the commission and a former U.S. Army attaché in China. "There's no doubt that that's state-controlled."' Wang Baodong, a spokesman for the Chinese Embassy in Washington, criticized the commission as "a product of Cold War mentality" that was "put in place to pick China to pieces." He added: "Accusations of China conducting, or 'likely conducting' as the commission's report indicates, cyberspace attacks or espionage against the US are unfounded and unwarranted.'"
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China Expands Cyberspying In US, Report Says

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  • Checking (Score:5, Funny)

    by BlackSnake112 (912158) on Thursday October 22, 2009 @11:42AM (#29835949)

    China is just checking to see where all it it's money is going.

    • Re:Checking (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Wowsers (1151731) on Thursday October 22, 2009 @11:47AM (#29836025) Journal

      And America is NOT spying on China?

      • Re:Checking (Score:4, Insightful)

        by _Sprocket_ (42527) on Thursday October 22, 2009 @12:02PM (#29836211)

        And America is NOT spying on China?

        Does it matter? Sure - some element is going to be all outraged. After all, who isn't shocked to find gambling going on? But really this is all about pointing out that there is, indeed, an issue that needs to be addressed. And if we don't address it, we have nobody but ourselves to blame.

      • Hey, it's only evil when they do it. China spying on the US isn't exactly new. It use to be (still is?) common for China to pay US immigrants to be spies, and not just a few - many thousands of them. I have a friend who caught Japanese industrial spies taking apart a stepper machine used to make ICs. It's pretty rampant.

        On the positive side, spying leads to transparency, and helps ease tensions between powers. Of course, I'd prefer that the US maintain some sort of military technology lead, given that

        • by fprintf (82740)

          Wait, so what is the relationship/proof of Chinese spying here? That your friend caught some Japanese spies?

          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by Teancum (67324)

            The "People's Liberation Army" has an entire battalion that is dedicated to hacking "the West" and conducting electronic intelligence gathering via the internet. That most of these folks do their stuff in China is besides the point.... which by definition is "legal" as it is officially sanctioned by that government.

            Of course the U.S. Air Force also has a similar team (I don't know how large of a unit) that does essentially the same thing on behalf of the U.S. Government.

            Perhaps the original commentary is p

            • Corporate spies and government spies are intermingling these days; the line is blurred. They even hire each other!

              The CIA hires outsiders in part, to get around their limitations. The USA has done tons of stuff militarily and covert for the benefit of its influential corps or corp groups at least since out messing around in South America for food corps. (likely before that, I draw a blank atm.) Its not just the war for oil recent stuff nor is it just 1 party. It doesn't even need to be organized-- plenty o

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by rtb61 (674572)

          Spying also leads to corruption and blackmail, both of which readily escalate into violent crime. So you are exposing the development of criminal elements within other countries, people who will lie, cheat, steal and kill, in order to profit via industrial and government espionage. There is also a well recognised tie between organised crime and private espionage 'contractors', so you are also supporting the concept that governments sponsor organised crime in other countries and, well, tough luck for all th

      • Re:Checking (Score:4, Interesting)

        by MightyMartian (840721) on Thursday October 22, 2009 @12:14PM (#29836359) Journal

        Of course the US is spying on China. What's amusing about this is that the Chinese government appears to think everyone else is complete simpering retards.

      • One more reason to move all sensitive data offline, at least in relation to certain sectors of both the government and economy. It takes just one idiot to put everything in danger.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Teancum (67324)

        Naw.... America is too busy spying on its own citizens to care even in the little bit that comes from abroad.

        Of course, the same could be said about China. This inter-governmental spying is just the small stuff in the grand scheme of things. Both countries are far more paranoid about their own citizens than by anything another country could do.

      • The difference (Score:3, Insightful)

        by MikeRT (947531)

        Even supposing that the US is spying on China's corporations to the same level as they do everyone else (unlikely, given how much worse China is for this than most developed countries), Chinese corporations would have recourse in the US against such actions if they discovered them. Try being an American company in the equivalent situation in China. The PRC would laugh itself silly at an American company's grievance.

      • Re:Checking (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Blakey Rat (99501) on Thursday October 22, 2009 @01:19PM (#29837287)

        Objection! Relevance!

        Didn't anybody tell you as a child that two wrongs didn't make a right? Regardless of the US' spying capabilities, the issues brought up in the article are still issues.

        Especially since China is spying on US companies, while the US is (probably!) only spying on Chinese government/military networks. (Which, while arguably morally wrong, is at least accepted as a fact of life.)

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Red Flayer (890720)

          Especially since China is spying on US companies, while the US is (probably!) only spying on Chinese government/military networks. (Which, while arguably morally wrong, is at least accepted as a fact of life.)

          Ha ha. Very funny. We're talking about defense contractors here. Effectively, they *ARE* part of the government. In the same way that some of the semi-private companies in China that the US spies on are effectively part of the Chinese government.

          The line between government and private corporation

        • Didn't anybody tell you as a child that two wrongs didn't make a right?

          Is spying wrong? I can't make up my mind.

        • by microbee (682094)

          Especially since China is spying on US companies, while the US is (probably!) only spying on Chinese government/military networks.

          You say 'probably', so you don't really know. So what's the point?

          Or maybe because when China points fingers to the US, you don't really get to see the news by the US media coverage.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by bored_lurker (788136)

        And America is NOT spying on China?

        You know, I have been teaching my daughter logic and we have been studying false arguments. We just covered tu quoque - thanks for the example!

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Yvan256 (722131)

      It's is a contraction of "it is" or "it has."
      Its is the possessive form of "it."

      • by Thanshin (1188877)

        Bob: "It, Could you lend me the red pen for a sec?".
        Its: "NO! It's mine! Get your own red pen!"

  • by kheldan (1460303) on Thursday October 22, 2009 @11:42AM (#29835955) Journal
    The notion that China is NOT doing the things they are accused of in this story is utter and complete bullshit .
    • by eldavojohn (898314) * <eldavojohn.gmail@com> on Thursday October 22, 2009 @11:56AM (#29836143) Journal

      The notion that China is NOT doing the things they are accused of in this story is utter and complete bullshit .

      Allow me to second this notion and also point out that the ambassador nor anyone from China will address the reports concern's item by item precisely because much of this is common knowledge. Why doesn't the ambassador deny the reports of a civilian based 'information war militia' being formed in Yongning County as the report alleges?

      The phrase "Cold War Mentality" is thrown around too much these days [chinadaily.com.cn]. The problem with the original cold war mentality was several fold. One point being that the buildup of nuclear weapons was not only a threat to the countries who intended to use them against each other but a threat to the entire world. In addition the two countries did not exact harm directly upon each other but rather used countries like Vietnam, Afghanistan and Cuba as conflict points ... putting those innocents in a very dire situation for years to come. While the buildup between China and the United States is a threat to the internet and networks internal to those countries, it is unlikely these wars will be fought in puppet theaters. This is not a cold war mentality nor is the United States anywhere close to creating another Cold War scenario.

      This is an issue between China and the United States, it's not a 'Cold War mentality' when you're keeping tabs on threats to you. Every country does it. The fear here is that China is dipping into/forcing a civilian base to partake in information warfare. If we were writing this report about being afraid of China for it's pool of computer science resources, we would be much more afraid of India--the largest pool of information technology.

      If country A developed a militia or civilian based attack (physical or cyber) on country B, country B will address the threat. If China is claiming this report is full of lies, let them address and disprove this report instead of using vague concepts to discredit the United States. Don't hold your breath.

      • So what your saying is we need to outsource our cyber-warfare to India?
      • by Culture20 (968837)

        While the buildup between China and the United States is a threat to the internet and networks internal to those countries, it is unlikely these wars will be fought in puppet theaters.

        Puppet theaters like zombie civilian PCs around the world?

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Red Flayer (890720)

        Allow me to second this notion and also point out that the ambassador nor anyone from China will address the reports concern's item by item precisely because much of this is common knowledge. Why doesn't the ambassador deny the reports of a civilian based 'information war militia' being formed in Yongning County as the report alleges?

        ...

        If China is claiming this report is full of lies, let them address and disprove this report instead of using vague concepts to discredit the United States. Don't hold your b

      • by WindBourne (631190) on Thursday October 22, 2009 @12:38PM (#29836683) Journal
        This is an issue between China and the United States,
        Actually, this is NOT an issue between China and America. It is an issue between China and the west. China is not just trying to undermine America, it is the entire west. That includes all countries that are west friendly. For example, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, and India are slowly being intimidated. China is now pointing 1000's of missiles at Taiwan. In addition, they have started a new build-up of Missiles, and general military along the Indian border and is trying to lay claim to land that was decided over 100 years ago. They have started to grab water resources and are laying claim to areas of India that rich in natural resources. They did the same thing in 62 just before they attacked. This time, they have 8-10 ICBM launching subs as well as a quickly increasing number of missiles on that border.

        Within the next decade, possibly 5 years, China is about to get VERY aggressive.
        • Within the next decade, possibly 5 years, China is about to get VERY aggressive.

          I think that timeline is a bit aggressive. There's been detente over Taiwan for almost a decade already.

          China will bide its time as long as its economy keeps moving along.

          What scares me is when China needs an active external enemy to keep its population compliant with government. I don't know how long that will be, but I think we're looking at a generation or two, not less than a decade. There is significant upward mobility

          • As the saying goes, google is your friend [google.com].

            Another useful source on this is check out wiki on the 1962 border war. In many ways, it is just like today. China is claiming certain resources, building up military on their border and then telling India that it is nothing. China is also doing more than just military exercises on the Indian front. They have been fairly quietly moving a number of missiles into place. Also, they have put a couple of their nuclear Ballistic missile and attack subs into the Indian
            • I was aware of escalating tension over territory that has been disputed for decades. I guess I misunderstood the OP, since I thought he meant that there were additional claims China was making on previously-undisputed Indian territory.

              Also google for China, India and Brahmputra. China has been quietly getting ready to build a dam on one of India's and Bangladesh's major source of waters. China has denied it all along and even now, when they are moving nearly 1/2 million ppl that are on the banks of the Bra

        • by MaWeiTao (908546) on Thursday October 22, 2009 @03:09PM (#29838819)

          Let me tell you, China doesn't need those missiles pointed at Taiwan. All they need is to do is coerce Taiwan economically the same way they're doing with the US. With Taiwan's new administration there has been more openness between the two nations. For a few decades now Taiwanese have been conduction business in China, but in recent years their relationship as gotten quite a bit closer. It's already having an effect on free speech. Reporters Without Borders has downgraded Taiwan's score on freedom of the press from 37 in 07 to 59 this year. There have been concerns raised of manipulation of the press to appease China in much the same way has been happening in Hong Kong for years now.

          Unfortunately, because the United Nations is so utterly worthless Taiwan has no ground to stand on since it will always do whatever China wants on this issue, which basically means Taiwan is marginalized on the international stage. Not many Taiwanese are losing sleep over this because so many are so interested in making money. And for many that means doing business in China and playing by their game.

          I'm convinced that China is more determined to become an economic superpower than a military one. Having your military engaged around the world is often more trouble than it's worth in this day and age. Look at the troubles the US and Russia have faced over the last few decades. The international community would never except either nation exerting its full military might, so instead we end up with these simmering conflicts that are never fully resolved. You'll notice that outside of oppressing people in regions like Tibet and Xinjiang, China doesn't really get involved internationally.

          What I think is happening is that China is using its economic success to enable it to invest in the military. Fortunately for them, they don't need to resort to military espionage on the level that the Russians did. All they have to do is buy whatever they need from Russia, and then build off of that. Unfortunately with the economic mess we have here in the US, and the rampant government spending, this places us in a position where we're even more dependent on China's economy.

          The big irony is that China still needs the rest of the world far more than the rest of the world needs China. If the US, Japan and Europe decided to move all manufacturing to southeast Asia and India, China would be completely devastated. And I do think manufacturing work is slowly trickling away to nations where labor is cheaper. My point is that China won't go militaristic while it's dependent on the rest of the world. However, once the leadership decides China no longer needs us things may change dramatically.

          I think a more immediate threat, however, is economic collapse in China. There are concerns about economic bubbles in China, real estate being one of them. If things go to crap, it's going to mean millions upon millions out of world. And what do nations always do when there's unrest amongst their people? They blame foreign nations and try to give people something to rally behind. That might mean starting with something like the invasion of some disputed islands in the Pacific, then on to Taiwan, and who knows what else?

          I completely embrace the idea of American companies doing business in China. And I think it's a good think to have a positive relationship with China. However, I think there are too many naive people out there and they too intent on portraying China like it's this pinnacle of greatness where everything they do is somehow justifiable. Listening to the media, I'm always left with the impression that China is the model of environmentalism for us all to follow. I had to go to a Taiwanese newspaper to read that China recently relocated 10,000 people because of severe lead poisoning. The best part is that they moved these people mainly so that the offending factory could go right on polluting as it had been.

          Considering that I live in America I expect my government to do what it can to ensure this nation's strength and success

    • by couchslug (175151)

      It is the duty of every government to spy on the competition for both military and economic information. The Chinese, US, and any other government would be negligent if they didn't look for every advantage.

    • by suso (153703) *

      The notion that China is NOT doing the things they are accused of in this story is utter and complete bullshit .

      I'll second, third and fourth that. Either Wang Baodong is a complete idiot or he's just trying to cover things up.

  • by mi (197448) <slashdot-2012@virtual-estates.net> on Thursday October 22, 2009 @11:47AM (#29836007) Homepage

    I'm shocked to discover, an emerging world power is spying on the existing world power and is trying to get its weapons technology...

    Seriously, this shouldn't even be news. What countermeasures are being taken is a lot more interesting — for both us and the Chinese — but should be kept just as secret for the latter reason...

    • by _Sprocket_ (42527)

      It's not news to people who are in these environments - in that line of business. Its probably news to some of the general public.

    • by Goffee71 (628501)
      Our defense is:

      All our code has bugs
      All our weapons don't work
      All our technology is too expensive to be affordable

      It'll take them a couple of decades, but they'll catch on.
    • I'm shocked to discover, an emerging world power is spying on the existing world power and is trying to get its weapons technology...

      Seriously, this shouldn't even be news. What countermeasures are being taken is a lot more interesting — for both us and the Chinese — but should be kept just as secret for the latter reason...

      You hit it square on the head - countermeasures allow for not only stopping intrusions but feeding bogus information or incorporating features in software that may be useful in the future - trap doors, equipment malfunctions, etc.

  • the chinese hackers doing this are mostly motivated by ultranationalist impulses. they are self-starting, they are not command and control from the central government. if they discover any informational gems, the desire to report this to the government is also completely voluntary and desirable from an individual nationalistic point of view. if useful enough, such hackers can be brought into the fold and become a genuine command and control tool of the government, but this is at the late stage of things

    of course, by completely controlling media, the government is creating a population of robots who aren't thinking critically and are ultranationalist only by default

    luckily, tribalism is never stronger than principles in terms of motivations that win over others on the global stage. chinese censorship is creating a generation of cottonheads in its youth, unable to see the wider world for what it is. youth from countries with open and transparent media, and without hermetically sealed censorship of the level china employs, are meanwhile more globalistic and principled in their attitudes, rather than tribal. of course nationalistic, tribal thinking exists in all countries. but only in places like china and iran, who feel the need to control the media, does the nationalism rise to the level of blind passion: these minds simply aren't exposed to other opinions

    so china has developed a wonderful machine for keeping china safe and secure from the outside. but as china begins to emerge as a player on the world stage, it is going to have to think on the world stage, not simply react from the point of view a cloistered hermit kingdom that imagines itself walled off from the wider world and its concerns

    china will never lead in this world as long as it breeds children who can't think about anything except china. critical thinking only comes from exposure to alternative opinions and points of view. the chinese are raising their children to have no criticla thinking skills, to be blind cottonheaded nationalistic robots

    • "the government is creating a population of robots who aren't thinking critically and are ultranationalist only by default"

      Have you ever been to china? Do you know anyone from china? I have both visited and have many friends from China. None of them are nationalistic and all of them are sceptical of their government.
      • by circletimessquare (444983) <circletimessquare AT gmail DOT com> on Thursday October 22, 2009 @01:11PM (#29837143) Homepage Journal

        even the most skeptical about the government's censorship excesses are still completely nationalistic. for example: it is not questioned, in the least, that tibet is part of china

        with a straight face, tell me a chinese director could make a "dances with wolves" style movie about chinese troops in tibet, and that such a movie would as widely praised and be as popular with chinese citizens as the real "dances with wolves" was with americans

      • by Threni (635302)

        I went there (schenzen or something - near Hong Kong) and it was shit - sort of like Wales would be if it were under martial law. I didn't see a single person smile. I was held up at passport control for an hour because the tour operator omitted a leading zero from my passport number - like anyone is going to try to break in to that shithole! (I could understand it if it had been on the way out)

      • I have never met one Chinese-born person at University who believed that the Communist Party should step down from power or criticized the government in any fundamental way. Not one. (Chinese-Americans, of course, are all over the spectrum when it comes to the Communist party and their right to rule.)

        It's actually quite surprising because otherwise these are very smart people. However, if you ask about human rights violations, censoring, corruption, pollution, etc, they all just revert back to the party lin

    • by cabjf (710106) on Thursday October 22, 2009 @12:21PM (#29836435)
      I see you read the same article I did a while back. I don't remember the magazine, but it outlined how the Chinese government basically turns a blind eye to the actions of these ultra-nationalistic hackers. Then it recruits the best for it's actual espionage programs. The author even followed his or her contact with one of these hackers who seemingly disappeared and turned up later under the employ of the regional government. I don't know that locking down the media is the only thing at work here. Look at the US from the 40's and 50's. Because of WWII, most everyone was on this lasting high of nationalistic pride, especially as our economy and power grew. I think many in China, especially those who are too young to remember the upheaval and killings of the Cultural Revolution, are under a nationalistic spell due to the growth that parts of the nation has been experiencing. Just wait until their government starts screwing things up and they'll have their own version of the 60's and 70's. If the upcoming generation is ultra-nationalistic, it follows that a future generation will rebel by questioning authority.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Teancum (67324)

        If the upcoming generation is ultra-nationalistic, it follows that a future generation will rebel by questioning authority.

        I don't necessarily see this as a given in China. Their culture is one that strongly respects authority (it has for the past 3000 years) and doesn't take too kindly to revolutionaries under any government that has ever existed in that country.

        If you are comparing that to the USA.... America was founded by a revolution, by pig-headed individuals who didn't respect authority and almost a

        • by lee1026 (876806)

          The American revolution was a very well organized event. Much better organized then Tiananmen Square.

      • it ended in tiananmen square

        the worst the us government came up with as a response to the 60s was kent state

        there were (and are) plenty of command and control arrogant authoritarian assholes in the us government who were itching (and are itching) to go hardline on the 60s countercultural revolution and its political effects. luckily, they didn't prevail, and are still not prevailing. however, such authoritarian assholes are clearly prevailing in china

        its really hard to put a flower in the tip of a national

    • by nomad-9 (1423689)
      "of course, by completely controlling media, the government is creating a population of robots who aren't thinking critically"

      How is that worse than US media completely controlled by a handful of corporations outputting the same crap ? Do you really think that the US youth in its majority is capable of critical thinking? Are you capable of critical thought ? Because your "blind cottonheaded nationalistic robots" comment is way too simplistic and does not speak in your favor.

      Have you ever considered that

      • i guess you missed the memo

        i see whistleblowing on corporations and where they do evil all the time in western media. the same would be completely covered up and whitewashed in china. do you understand the level of pollution chinese companies get away with in china? if chinese companies tried to pull in the west the kind of crap they get away with routinely in china, the media would start a firestorm. oh, in fact they did: melamine in food, ethylene glycol in medicine, lead in toys...

        witness:

        http://lens.blo [nytimes.com]

    • I'd expect the chinese internet censorship would severely limit the ability of "citizens" to gain access to restricted foreign web resources. At least those citizens who did not have special privileges, such as living in places like Hong Kong where the restrictions are less. Plus, the chinese authoritites monitor all their citizens' web usage, so a bit of freelance spying would be easily detectable (and would obviate the need to report finding to the government: they'd already know what a person had found,
    • by immakiku (777365)

      You've actually made some pretty loaded comments. Let's first ignore your assumptions about Chinese youth being made brainless by their media based on what you see in your media.

      From my understanding, your main point is that China will need to have more open and engaging policies in order to sustain itself in the global economic and political arena. Though this sounds good in theory, you haven't provided any evidence why this should be true. All prior experience suggests they are doing fine and are rising t

      • as long as china is simply concerned with china

        that's not loaded, its simply straightforward and obvious

        you criticize what i say with a point of view which is not relevant to my conclusion:

        "From my understanding, your main point is that China will need to have more open and engaging policies in order to sustain itself in the global economic and political arena"

        i have no confusion or misunderstanding that china can and will continue to take care of itself- to sustain itself

        but it won't LEAD

        and if china can't

        • by immakiku (777365)

          Historically who hasn't been primarily concerned with their own welfare more than the welfare of others? Only the top few spots have the luxury of worrying about others. Before humans were the top of the food chain, we didn't care at all about animal rights. This is hardly a valid criticism - whatever nation has sufficiently taken care of itself will spread their attention wider.

          • your observations are fine in a vacuum of any other considerations. but if you compare how children are raised in the west, their media market, with children raised in china, the chinese media market, you are not creating a generation of critical thinkers in china because there is no exposure to anything other than "what is good for china". "what is good for the west" is still a valid concern in the west, but in the west, via self-criticism, you sometimes wind up with an even better answer to the question "

            • by immakiku (777365)

              Don't you think that's a weak claim? Prioritizing critical introspection is certainly nice, but not always necessary. The fact of the matter is, it hasn't been needed to a high degree so far. Their government isn't as rigid or unyielding as we might be led to believe; it will adapt when it makes sense to.

              In addition, the philistines in America are every bit as egocentric as their analogues in China. And the literati in China are every bit as introspective as their analogues here, though the public face of t

              • egocentric idiotic tribal ultranationalists exist everywhere. in the usa, and in china. in the usa, you are allowed to question such ultranationalism. in china, such ultranationalism is a monopoly, the state owned media, and if you question the party line, you are fair game for monitoring, admonishment, and perhaps prosecution

                this clearly means more minds are swayed towards han imperialism in beijing than there are minds in washington dc swayed towards american imperialism. this clearly means more minds in

                • by immakiku (777365)

                  I am aware of the difference. I don't dispute that, though I do think the media here heavily exaggerates the extent of the difference.

                  I probably wasn't clear - I'm saying your claim is thin, not that your argument or rhetoric at arriving at the conclusion is weak. I'm saying that egocentricism is not hugely detrimental, which is what you are claiming (right?). Your claim is that national criticism is sometimes beneficial so disallowing such sentiments in public in favor of the greater harmony might not be t

                  • it is no mistake that out of the enlightenment in europe came the foundations of modern science. the enlightenment started as a questioning of religious edicts from the catholic church, the protestant reformation. the point was: when you question supposedly solid beliefs, you begin your intellectual growth. it doesn't mean you have to give up those beliefs, but some beliefs, yes, you will give up, and this will provide new avenues of thought which is a REQUIREMENT for a strong supple mind. you ask: "How doe

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by CodeBuster (516420)

      to be blind cottonheaded nationalistic robots

      Who know how to handle a rifle and follow orders without question. Critical thinking may be indicative of greater cultural sophistication, but that didn't prevent Rome from being sacked by barbarians who, though lacking in culture, were handy with a sword.

    • the Chinese hackers doing this are mostly motivated by ultranationalist impulses. they are self-starting, they are not command and control from the central government. if they discover any informational gems, the desire to report this to the government is also completely voluntary and desirable from an individual nationalistic point of view. if useful enough, such hackers can be brought into the fold and become a genuine command and control tool of the government, but this is at the late stage of things
      Yo
    • by foobsr (693224)
      the chinese are raising their children to have no criticla thinking skills, to be blind cottonheaded nationalistic robots

      The 'West' are raising their children to have no critical thinking skills, to be blind, cotton-headed corporate robots.

      I fail to see a significant difference, perhaps there is a bigger 'error/failure' rate in either camp.

      CC.
      • in the west, i can view any media source i want. in the west, i can criticize my government freely

        in china, i can't view any media source, plenty are blocked. additionally, if i say something that criticises the chinese government, i can be monitored, perhaps punished

        the difference is real and significant in terms of the types of minds that are created. there are plenty of nationlistic idiots in the west. but in china, there are many more, as simple result of the fact that the chinese government policy enco

    • by BhaKi (1316335)

      ... of course, by completely controlling media, the government is creating a population of robots who aren't thinking critically and are ultranationalist only by default ...

      Just like the US government. This has been the US government's strategy for the last 50 or more years. And it's still working successfully. How else would the "critical thinking" people of a country consent to so many wars?

    • Ouch, are you way out there....with your generalizations. I agree that China wants to breed these type of easy to control, loyal weak minded supporters to their cause, but in fact I have seen a few Chinese being crushed and run over by tanks because they did not want to move and let the government dictate EVERYTHING for them.

      Generalizations are a dangerous thing, especially if it blinds you into thinking that you know enough about just one "people" to effectively cast them off as being non important, or di

  • Isn't everything made in China these days? There's no need to spy companies, just wait for them to get the manufacturing contracts with a Chinese company.

    Score: 50% funny, 50% scary.

    • by Asic Eng (193332)
      That's a very good point. Furthermore - a lot of the stuff which isn't made in China is made in Taiwan. China's official policy is that they want to take over Taiwan - either by peaceful means (sorta, with thousands of missiles targetted on Taiwan and rapidly increasing military buildup) or by direct force. A huge chunk of the world's computer and semiconductor industry is in Taiwan, losing that to China is a huge strategical risk.

      Despite that the US has been dragging their feet when it comes to let Taiwa

      • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward

        The third world war has been going on for at least the last two or three decades.

        Except this time the armies are companies and the weapons are simply currency.

      • by MaWeiTao (908546)

        Much of Taiwan's manufacturing has already moved to China and elsewhere in Asia. Taiwan's government has tried to limit that but it's been largely futile. And Taiwan's current administration is opening up to China, trying to improve relations. They already allow direct flights between the two countries, which is something that wasn't allowed for the past 50 years since Taiwan was formed. Most Taiwanese are mostly interested in economic success and as such are eager to conduct business in China. Freedom of t

  • Northrop Grumman (Score:5, Insightful)

    by royallthefourth (1564389) <royallthefourth@gmail.com> on Thursday October 22, 2009 @11:53AM (#29836091)
    A military contractor wrote a report making a foreign power look like a military threat.

    I don't doubt China is spying here, electronically and otherwise. However, it seems like a conflict of interest to have someone who would benefit from escalated military production evaluating our military needs.
    • Ok, fair enough. Who would you suggest is better qualified to write a report like this? The Armed forces who are actually doing the fighting? Think tanks? God-forbid, politicians? The general public? Who, exactly, is better qualified to do the research and write a report like this?

      Also, are your "doubts" based on anything at all or is that just somekind of gut feeling you have?

      I am asking because some of us on this site see the things they speak of in this report. This isn't some esoteric inte
      • Agreed. Someone must do this type of research with clearance level access. Better to have educated, vetted, background-checked individuals doing this than the public-at-large.
      • How about Switzerland?

      • The NSA ought to have enough knowledge. If not, congress can fund them instead of a private contractor.

        The military-industrial complex is a threat to the entire world. Eisenhower knew what he was talking about.
        • The NSA has produced MANY reports saying this. Sadly, many ppl do not take it serious because they claim that it is part of the American gov. So, this was spun off to allow an independent look at it. And now, fools are claiming that they should not be the ones doing it.

          In the end, it does not matter what happens HERE. What matters is what Obama and the current pols (dems) as well as the entire western/western friendly gov. will do.
    • by Eil (82413)

      I have 5 mods points and wish I could use them all on the above comment.

      Most people have no idea how much defense policy is (more or less) constructed by the defense contractors themselves. These firms invent scary-sounding problems and then offer expensive solutions. They develop nothing that they think can't be successfully pitched to the Pentagon. When a commander or committee buys into a billion-dollar project, they get a promotion and the contractor gets a billion taxpayer dollars.

      I've seen this with m

  • What did they expect? A polite call? A mail?

    "Excuse me. We'd like to know about your military efforts. Thank you."

    Or is it just a case of: "Countries spy on each other. News at eleven."

  • I'm sure every country is spying on every other one - including so-called "allies". All this tells us is there's one single case study where someone's internet security wasn't up to scratch.
  • by CodeBuster (516420) on Thursday October 22, 2009 @12:08PM (#29836289)
    This report demonstrates precisely why many companies, particularly those with no direct overseas connections, black hole the entire IP ranges of countries like China, Russia, and others. While this does not entirely prevent attacks originating in those countries it does put one more roadblock in the way of any would be attackers (i.e. they must first compromise some other US host before launching their attack through that host). According to the report linked in the TFA, the attackers were able to RDP into company computers directly from China...doh!
  • Pleaseeeeeeee (Score:2, Interesting)

    by bullwin69 (521778)
    Are you kidding me.This is what keep everybody in business. I would have a problem believing them if both sides said they where being good boys and girls
  • Im shocked. Really shocked. Or perhaps not...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enercon#cite_note-zeit-0 [wikipedia.org] In other words: So what? Is normal competitive behaviour when the USA is spying, but evil when the USA is the victim? Cry me a river.
  • What an outrage! (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Akita24 (1080779)
    They should know better! Shame on them! Everybody knows it's only good/moral/OK if WE do it. Sheesh.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Recently, Obama moved all of ITAR regulated space goods to being under department of commerce. This is the same group that allowed various space companies to work closely with China under Clinton. Problem is, that all of the fixes that were done to China's rockets were transferred to China's nuke missiles and it now appears that same tech was transferred to North Korea AND Iran (both of their missiles showed up with similar fixes). So, now, Clinton's transfer to tech has enabled China, NK, and Iran to land
  • Seriously, how is this a new thing?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 22, 2009 @12:22PM (#29836449)

    I worked in Nuclear security, and a Chinese programmer before I was hired ran off with the source code to our nuclear security system and went back to China with it. It is happening.

  • by Tablizer (95088) on Thursday October 22, 2009 @12:24PM (#29836483) Homepage Journal

    go figure. It's like over-feeding a pet until it's large enough to eat you, and then complaining that it's eating you.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    I couldn't get past this: "Wang Baodong" (the spokesman for the Chinese Embassy in Washington...)

  • It's vitally important the Chinese find out what kind of porn the people at our research labs are into.

  • It's what now, 3 or 4 times a year we hear this same story? If there were something we really didn't want them to have, and I'm sure there's plenty, we'd put it where they couldn't get to it, ie. not networked/online.

    Face it, they're the main supplier for the myriad crap consumables and durable goods we pick up the the People's Republic of Walmart. At the pries they're getting they can't afford to buy these 'secrets' and still come up to par with us. If we charged them, their businesses would never get the

  • didn't invent itself.

    I find it ironic that until about 1000 years ago, the Chinese were inventing some serious shit! I mean paper, gunpowder, the compass, printing, paper money, the toothbrush... the list goes on and on.

    I guess one day they just blew their mental loads and decided that it was easier to steal other nations' technologies. Or maybe they figure they have already contributed enough to civilization and now they deserve to reap the benefits.

Those who do things in a noble spirit of self-sacrifice are to be avoided at all costs. -- N. Alexander.

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