Citizens Spy On Big Brother 719
An anonymous reader writes "Citizens of the world are striking back at 24/7 state surveillance by pulling out their cameraphones and filming inept officials, deadly healthcare lapses and thuggish cops. So-called Sous-veillance is seeing more and more people posting damning footage of official misdemenours to sites such as YouTube to shame them into action." I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over.
Good Luck (Score:5, Insightful)
You might be considered a terrorist if you record the police. Wouldn't be the first time.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Score:5, Insightful)
Who watches the watchers? The point becomes moot when everyone is a watcher.
Uh... (Score:0, Insightful)
I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over.
Chances are, they'll pull shit on you because, notoriously, they don't seem to like cameras outside of their "control". Look at all those cases of people getting arrested and/or harassed for videotapping, or otherwise recording cops. "Violation of Federal Wiretapping Laws" sound familiar? One fscked up system we got here.
Now consider all of history (Score:5, Insightful)
Everyone the authorities swore did something wrong.
And it gets worse- humans actively remap their memories to make them feel better. 10 years after these incidents, the police probably really DO believe their initial lies.
I've seen it in others and I've seen it in myself and I'm more careful of it than most (or at least I remember that I am! ;) )
Police should be required to video tape everything they do and lack of video evidence should be a strong case against them.
People (not just police) have been shown to lie a lot more than we used to think. We need to change our systems of justice to fit reality.
Re:You wonder? (Score:1, Insightful)
What country are you from? I've had many encounters with the police before here in America and I have yet to experience any "excessive" force. I've seen it on TV with drug users and people who commit crimes, but I've never personally experienced anything negative other than a "hard ass" who gave me a speeding ticket even though I deserved it.
Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
... and the still intact memory chip has a nice recording of the officer's boot, which turns out to be very helpful in securing a conviction for assault and his dismissal from the department, and from the society that he was supposed to protect.
Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because it hasn't happened to you, it never happens. Thanks for clearing that up.
Your Legislators At Work (Score:2, Insightful)
I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over.
A whole bunch of new laws get passed making it illegal for reasons of public servant safety to take video of any police officer in the performance of his duties. I suspect that we'll also see the first exception to the laws against jamming cell phones being made for public safety types as well. Can't have those evulll hax0rs using the Intertubes to commit identify theft against our Men In Blue, can we?
Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Uh... (Score:4, Insightful)
When you have one guy and one camera this is a possibility, but when you have a situation where there are dozens of cameras...
Even now most cell phones do video. Think what it will be like in 10 years. Look at what services like YouTube have done to peoples reflexive camera response; you have the camera, and you have a public forum to air the footage, so you whip that camera out at the least provokation, at the mere possibility that you might see something worth recording.
The government has a tiny fraction of the recording resources of the population, and they have more and more dangerous secrets. Who has the most to be afraid of in this situation?
Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You wonder? (Score:1, Insightful)
I guess you have never been to Los Angeles.
Re:don't inform the cop you're recording him. (Score:1, Insightful)
In Putinist Russia, you break law.
In Soviet America, law breaks you.
What a country :)
rodney king proved this in 1991 (Score:5, Insightful)
citizens with cameras is an idea that destroys the outdated orwellian dystopian fantasy so many posit as their philosophical starting point when evaluating trends in the modern world
"big brother" as a viable concept is dead. "1984" is pure fiction. it will never come to pass. the citizens merely use the government's own tactics and technology against them
long live "little brother"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King [wikipedia.org]
Re:Marge Simpson said it years ago (Score:2, Insightful)
"The courts might not work anymore, but as long as everyone is videotaping everyone else, justice will be served."
Very funny. But who was videotaping when it was decided how to award the no-bid contracts for the Iraq war? We're catching the small fish here...
Re:Depends on the cop (Score:5, Insightful)
2. You are not filming/photographing something you legally cannot (like a port or inside a mall)
In the USA at least, there's no legal framework that bans filming inside shopping malls. There is simply a legal framework that allows the private owners of the mall to make rules dictating whatever behavior they like or not, and if as a guest you do not comply with these rules, you must leave. If you do not leave when requested by any private owner, whether following their rules or not, you can be reported and arrested/ticketed by police for trespassing. In any case, the private owners cannot (1) take your equipment, (2) delete your pictures, (3) force you to do anything but leave the premises.
Personally, I think that since most shopping malls get huge tax incentives and other public funding, they should be held to certain accessibility and public use laws. However, that's rarely the case, and the private owners can enjoy this micro-fief in which to control their "guests" at their whim. If you don't like it, shop elsewhere.
And lastly, if a police officer ever asks you to delete a photograph, follow the ACLU bust guidelines. "Am I under arrest, or am I free to go?" Since a photograph is copyright-protected simply through the act of creation, destruction of a photograph is (1) destruction of your personal property, and (2) destruction of legal evidence. The cop needs to be reminded as gently as possible that there are two options and that you know this: they arrest you (securing all evidence safely) or wave goodbye.
Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
chances are that a cop is gonna "firmly grasp" the arm holding the camera, and the camera will end up on the ground waiting to be destroyed. We had a protest a few months ago at my university that ended up like that; only one fragmented video escaped.
If it's a normal digital camera, try using a Micro-SD card in an adapter.
The chances are higher that the card will survive even if the camera is destroyed.
Re:It so rare... (Score:5, Insightful)
if only... (Score:1, Insightful)
now if we could use cameras to track union officials and political party advisors and administration officials, we would really have something.
Re:Operating a (camera)phone while driving? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not in my jurisdiction. Too bad about yours.
We barely have seatbelt laws here. Phone? Fine. Camera? Fine. Shotgun rack? Fine. Bought the shotgun at a gunshow with no ID? Fine.
Do a video at your own risk. However, only very rarely does a police officer respond negatively to an individual that is polite when pulled over, is sober, and doesn't provoke the officer. It's a self-fulfilling action to believe that police officers will react negatively; they're human and IMHO aren't going to react negatively without provocation. Then tell it to the judge. Or suffer the consequences of provocation.
When I was young I called cops pigs. Then I came to understand what cops have to put up with. Some are still way too brutal. But most are just trying to keep the peace. Traffic cops I have problems with, but I keep quiet and polite during a trafffic stop, then beat my tickets anyway and don't drive like a raving Type-A idiot. Others have different results.
Re:You wonder? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
Your first mistake is lumping all people who wear blue uniforms and carry a badge "the police". There are big differences between your local traffic cops and the police forces in L.A. and N.Y. Among other things, I highly doubt your local police have shot unarmed people from over 50 yards away, or beaten up protesters.
Your second mistake is thinking that the cops treat you and everyone else the same. You're probably white and relatively well off, and were pulled over wearing a nice button-down shirt and slacks. That makes cops think you're generally a law-abiding citizen, even if they're pulling you over because you broke the law. When less privileged people are pulled over, they're far more likely to be ordered from their car, patted down for weapons, have their trunk searched for drugs, etc.
The Smaller Cameras Get (Score:3, Insightful)
The smaller cameras get, the more common this is going to become.
Security guards and such get all bent out of shape if you try to take a picture inside of a mall. Cops get all bent out of shape when you record them being cops. But when the camera is so small that it can't be easily spotted...
Re:You wonder? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
Plus, the cops should have to act BETTER than most people, because, guess what, they're COPS. If that means they're on camera 24/7, then so be it. They signed up for it.
Re:Depends on the cop (Score:5, Insightful)
"Depends on the cop" is right. Considering the disparity in power, you should think very carefully about the stakes before you make a cop aware that you are recording his or her actions. At the very least, it will piss them off, and pissed off cops are nothing you want to deal with. If you're just being pulled over for speeding (and you're white and sober), just being pleasant and respectful (read: kissing a little ass) will go a long way.
Mind you, I think it's a good thing for citizens to videotape police actions. But cops are dangerous and angry cops are even more dangerous, and you shouldn't play with that kind of danger. Bear in mind the number of occasions that cops have been videotaped beating the holy living hell out of somebody and then gotten off scot-free. If you're going to take on the system, don't do it casually. By all means, if you see injustice, take it on -- but do so with forethought and a careful consideration of the risks you expose yourself to. It's not a game, and the consequences can be pretty serious. Choose your battles wisely.
The short version: If your main motivation is to be an annoying wiseass, start a blog instead.
So where is the cop outrage? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why aren't the 'good cops' turning in their corrupt, violent and evil coworkers?
Sorry, until I see more exposure of bad cops from within their departments, I'm lumping the 'good cops' in with the bad cops.
Sympathizers you know? Kinda like how we bomb the houses of people who help Iraqi Insurgents, even if they aren't actually insurgents themselves.
Aiding and abetting the enemy: abuse of authority.
Faking it (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:It so rare... (Score:3, Insightful)
Just because they don't find you doesn't mean they are any less real.
Have you ever seen a buddhist monk whistle? Does this lack of evidence means it doesn't happen often? No. It just means YOU don't have the information yourself to make such a claim. It does NOT mean *I* do not.
After all, I don't take a picture of everything I've witnessed. That doesn't make it any less true.
Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, you have only one body, and insurance won't help you if you're dead.
Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You wonder? (Score:3, Insightful)
"Let me guess - you're white and middle class and live in a nice area."
Generalize much? Why would you assume that s/he is that? Is it because you believe in that middle class white folks have all the breaks? That is what I read.
Re:So where is the cop outrage? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because they are in the same family/gang/tribe.
Most people don't turn the bad people in their family unless something really drastic happens (like they kill people, and even then who knows).
When was the last time you turned in your coworker?
And if your boss and upper ranks are corrupt well good luck turning them in.
> 80% of the people won't bother - they go with the flow. If the flow is evil, they do evil. If the flow is good, they do good.
Only a few will have integrity and be good against the "flow"/norm. Even defying their bosses.
And there'll be the bad bunch who will be bad no matter what.
So you want a good "norm", you start with the people at the top who are responsible for setting the norms.
Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's what I'm saying: Anyone with the power to ruin your life just by their word against yours should not be trusted.
Doesn't mean they're all bad people, but just like most police approach every traffic stop being aware of the fact someone could be waiting in the driver's seat with intent to harm them, every citizen should approach every encounter with the police knowing there are bad cops out there and they may be at risk.
This won't change until officers start getting prosecuted for swearing false statements, and the "good" ones stop covering for the "bad" ones.
If you've got the time, I highly recommend watching these two videos before you ever consider trusting a police officer:
http://www.hackaday.com/2008/06/16/dont-talk-to-the-police/ [hackaday.com]
Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
Just because it does happen doesn't mean that every cop is a bad officer.
Yes, it pretty much does. If my neighbor were a murdering psychopath, I'd be arrested for knowing about it and not saying anything. Police departments routinely have assholes sign up, simply because they want to be a professional asshole for the rest of their lives. The "good" cops often wind up covering for these pieces of shit and otherwise enabling them, because cops all have a tendency to believe that they are always right and the suspect is always wrong.
Fuck cops. Seriously, you have no fucking idea. It's a two way street you say? Why is it that the police are allowed to film you while you get the shit beat out of you for filming? What purpose does a civilian have for filming the police other than self defense? If the civilian is just trying to protect themselves why are the police so threatened? Is it because a good portion of them are inept, abusive, and generally incompetent? Thinking men know that might does not make right, police officers are *rarely* thinking men.
Recording others (Score:3, Insightful)
I've often wondered about this... Whenever I call my credit card company, utility companies, etc. the first thing you hear on the call is "this call may be recorded...." Does that give me implicit permission to record the call without notifying whoever I end up talking to? It doesn't say "this call may be recorded by Acme corporation for training purposes but you do not have permission to record this call".
I wonder if such an assumption can be made when it comes to getting pulled over by the police, etc. It seems to be common knowledge that a lot of police cars are now equipped with cameras, so is there any reason I, as a private citizen, couldn't hook up a similar video camera to my dashboard that records video & sound just like a cop car, and not even bother to tell an officer who happens to pull me over.
Re:You wonder? (Score:2, Insightful)
No, it is not discrimination. These are publice employees. They work (in theory) for us. We give them a paycheck, benefits, and broad powers to work for us. Right now there is (in many areas) absolutely no accountability. None. As FatSean stated below, the good cops are not turning in the bad; this means they should be fully culpable for any crimes committed by other officers that they are aware of. Public surveillance is the only way to even begin achieving this.
This is not a two way street, this is an attempt to correct a severe imbalance. Neither is this discrimination, and to call it such is irresponsible at best, seeing as how the people are (supposed) to be the final over-seers in our system of government.
Re:Depends on the cop (Score:3, Insightful)
I see it more as drunken chavs being herded. I don't see how these shows are even remotely entertaining when they're such a damning indictment of humanity — by virtue of both their content and existence.
Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you feel the need to post anonymously, our terrorist government has already won.
Re:You wonder? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
The idea that it is insulting or implies anything about somebody's behavior when a camera is pointed at someone to record a law enforcement interaction is already a dead issue. Cops record you with their own video, they chemically test the air that emits from your car, and they have the authority to insist on a BAC test to verify that you are sufficiently sober to drive based on a randomly placed static checkpoint. If all that's fair game and no problem, why is a citizen camera anything but a safeguard against the tiny percentage of bad police who should have never been passed by the academy and no reflection on the good cops?
Why tell them? (Score:2, Insightful)
>> I wonder what happens if you inform a cop that you are recording him when he pulls you over.
Why inform the cop? They don't bother to tell us if/when they're filming from their car during a stop.
After fighting and loosing a blatantly ridiculous speeding ticket I've come to the unfortunate realisation you have to treat cops like they treat you... i.e. its a war. Don't make the mistake that cops are any way fair any more, they're not. Use what ever you can.
Don't wave a camera in the cop's face, just have a webcam in your car like they do. In fact you're probably more likely to capture something out of order if the cop doesn't know he's being filmed.
As far as I understand, if you can prove any part of the stop wasn't performed strictly by the book, you've got an automatic get-out.
Re:So where is the cop outrage? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm no rat. In a town this bent, who's there to rat to anyway?
Maybe Lt. Gordon is right...
You don't. (Score:5, Insightful)
Finally, and most importantly, it will force the police to behave as if they were being filmed all of the time because they just won't know who that one tinfoil hat dude is until they are being fired for beating him.
Re:You wonder? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, you do still have the right to refuse to take said tests. When you do that, you are simply giving them evidence with which to convict you.
Sure, in some states, you may lose your license for awhile, but, they can't convict you with no proof. And you can usually get a hardship license even after that, so you can drive to/from work.
You shouldn't drive drunk, that avoids the problem to begin with, but, even if you fsck up a little, you are under no obligations to help the police gather evidence against you or self-incriminate yourself. If you get pulled over and are toasty...you are going to jail, just put your hand out for the cuffs, don't say anything, don't take any field tests...go to jail and lawyer up.
Re:You wonder? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:You wonder? (Score:2, Insightful)
If my neighbor were a murdering psychopath, I'd be arrested for knowing about it and not saying anything.
You assumed that you would know it if your neighbor is a murdering psychopath.
Why is it that the police are allowed to film you while you get the shit beat out of you for filming?
Maybe I just haven't been watching that many of the police abuse films, but I haven't seen this happen. For example, the recent film of the biker getting tossed by the NYPD cop had no hint of the person filming getting beat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXzRczBk06M [youtube.com]
Re:You wonder? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:You wonder? (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's what I'm saying: Anyone with the power to ruin your life just by their word against yours should not be trusted.
You are clearly a radical, showing utmost contempt for your government.
"The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty" - John Adams
Just like John Adams.
Re:You wonder? (Score:3, Insightful)
Next you'll hear of clowns suing people for laughing at them.
You clothes are an expression of how you want to be perceived. If you want to be perceived as a criminal why shouldn't there be extra thought by the police into your motives?
There was a question, "You have two dark alleys to walk down, one has a gruop of white guys in business suits and the other a group of black gang bangers. which alley to you walk down?"
How about "You have two dark alleys to walk down, one has a group of black guys in business suits and the other a group of white gang bangers. which alley to you walk down?"
Privacy? Innocent vs. guilty? (Score:3, Insightful)
Today we have a media that feeds on salicious gossip. We have YouTube and other web sites that host any video you care to upload.
What this means is that if I take pictures of someone being arrested for some socially-unacceptable crime (child molestation, for example) it will certain make the local news and can be posted to YouTube and others just for laughs. Of course their being arrested has no bearing on their real guilt which might take a trial months later to really decide. But by the mere fact of their being arrested we can destroy their lives. People for the most part are very reluctant to give up the notion that you have to be guilty to get arrested.
Did you consider that randomly recording police actions will often lead to this sort of thing far more than "catching" the police in some sort of abusive actions? No, of course not. All cops are corrupt weasles that just want to abuse their power over ordinary people and every interaction between a police officer and ordinary citizens will result in some kind of abuse.
The reason that "professional" photographers have stayed away from perp walks and photographing arrests is because doing otherwise is clearly abusive. Sure, some people will do anything for a picture that sells. And think how much a video of some celebrity getting arrested will sell for...
Authoritarianism is a mental virus (Score:5, Insightful)
There are a lot of authoritarian fuckwits who can't stand it when people stand up to authority. They are small minded bullies who worship power, think humans are basically evil, and must be beaten into civility. The idea of these 'evil' humans refusing to take their beatings frightens them, because a human who hasn't been beaten into submission is a free and therefore dangerous human.
I'm being a little harsh here, as authoritarianism is actually a mental virus. If you've ever mentally beaten yourself up for a perceived failure instead of simply noting it and refocusing on how you want to be, you are very likely infected with it yourself. People infected with the virus do not need to coordinate their actions consciously, yet work together to spread the virus through abuse and fear mongering.
Always try to be impeccable with your words and thoughts and do not use them to harm yourself or others. Use reward, not punishment, to motivate yourself and others to behave in positive ways. Punishment will never create new and positive behaviors.
Re:You wonder? (Score:4, Insightful)
The way things are, it's amazing that Vang Khang isn't in jail for life for "attempting to kill police officers."
Re:You wonder? (Score:3, Insightful)
Ultimately, I believe the proliferation of web connected handheld devices is going to cause law enforcement officials to be on their best behavior.
If only it's because they have the fear that they're going to go home and find their face on the television and a rather ominious message on their answering machine something to the effect of:
"Hello, this is X from internal affairs, we need to talk about incident Y"
Re:The Case of Brett Darrow (Score:3, Insightful)
meanwhile thousands of other people record police officers without any problems.
I wonder. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:You wonder? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:You wonder? (Score:3, Insightful)
Where do cops not get paid well? They've gotten paid well above the median income every where I've lived, both small towns and large, east coast, midwest, and west coast.
Quick Tip About Kids (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing about kids is you can't make it all about them. If they think the only one they're hurting when they misbehave is themselves, they calculate the cost/benefit.
Once a kid is a little older, if you play it so they're not the only one benefiting and losing, they start to realize that other people are depending upon them to do what's right. Kids want more than anything to fit in socially...even if the social group is their parents (especially when young).
The problem is that many parents don't see why they should be inconvenienced by someone else, even if it is their own kid, so they isolate the negative consequences to the child. But that doesn't give the kid a sense of his effect on his local environment...or it mitigates it somewhat, so the kid learns that his negative behavior only affects himself (the same is often true of good behavior—parents naturally want their little angel to get all the credit when they do the right thing, so they try to direct all the benefit that way).
Example: A kid is acting up in a restaurant. Hopefully, the parent did the right thing in getting the child excited about going to the restaurant as a kind of plus, so just being there is a fun experience. The parent should: (1) tell the child once that if they don't settle down, they'll pay the bill and leave immediately, food or no food and then (2) do it. Most parents won't follow through without a big to do, because they themselves want the meal. But this isn't the right answer—the right thing to do is get up and go, and suffer the consequences of your kid's bad behavior with them. Make sure they know your skipped meal is no fun either, but they had the chance to fix it and there's no going back.
If the kid learns early that there are inflexible rules of the universe, and once you run afoul of them the path is determined and quickly followed, they shape up quickly. If parents don't have the will to pursue the behavior they want and not settle for less, however, in the end no one gets what they want.
Re:You wonder? (Score:3, Insightful)
For what it's worth, I've never had any trouble with the local cops where I live--they've all been polite and professional. But it really only takes one power-tripping asshole with an attitude to ruin your whole day. If the cops get to record us to protect themselves, why shouldn't we have the same option?
Re:You wonder? (Score:3, Insightful)
Need Better Pay, Oversight, and Incentives (Score:3, Insightful)
Cops starting out are lucky to make $20k/yr. Competent people can and will take other jobs, so recruiters aren't left with much choice. Base pay should go up a lot. Keep the pay up for awhile and competent people will push out the incompetent, and corruption will go down because it will become a job worth keeping.
Police advance and are rewarded for the number of tickets they write and "criminals" they catch. This encourages a predatory relationship with the public, abuse, and corruption. The rewards are much greater for catching someone committing a crime than for discouraging a crime.
IMHO I'd like to see the word "criminal" banned as hate speech. How is a person who committed a crime supposed to consider a law-abiding lifestyle when they have been permamently branded as a crime-committer. How is society supposed to seriously support their rehabilitation when they've been given this core identity?
Down here in San Diego County an off-duty cop shot a mother and her 8yr old son in a road rage incident. Every piece of dirt on this mother was leaked to the press, she's been charged with child endangerment, and the cop who has been on leave is just now being charged with rather minor crimes. We need real accountability. The incident was recorded. Recording the police is a great start, but doesn't do much good if prosecutors ignore it.
I should say my impression of the SDPD has been fairly positive, especially in the city. I've seen them provoked and they were pretty good about de-escalating the situation. Still think all of the above applies.