Slashdot is powered by your submissions, so send in your scoop

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Microsoft IT

Vista is Slower, But XP Is Still Dying 573

An anonymous reader writes "Though the Redmond software giant may be extending the lifetime of XP on low-end laptops, the end is nigh for the aging OS. That extension makes perfect sense, as recent studies have shown XP is far faster than Vista across a number of platforms. Still, Microsoft is 'sticking to its guns' when it comes to drop-dates for most other uses of the XP operating system. 'There are several dates that apply, but the one you're probably thinking of is the June 30 deadline that Dix referred to. That's the last day when large computer makers -- the Dells, HPs and Lenovos of the world -- will be allowed to preinstall Windows XP on new PCs. It also marks the official end of XP as a retail product.'"
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Vista is Slower, But XP Is Still Dying

Comments Filter:
  • by Ethanol-fueled ( 1125189 ) * on Saturday April 05, 2008 @07:29PM (#22975874) Homepage Journal
    For now it's up to the users to decide if and when XP "dies". There are two ways I can think of for Microsoft to kill XP: (1) They could develop and release a useable next-generation OS(which remains to be seen) or (2) Putting on the tinfoil hat, I guess Microsoft could "accidentally" leak hitherto-unknown XP vulnerabilities so that XP will be so exploitable and unpatchable that it will eventually be unuseable...but that scenario is unlikely given Microsoft's support lifecycle policy [microsoft.com]. I doubt that they could handle lack of innovation and 1 or 2 more crappy OS releases before *NIX and Apple eat MS' marketshare. Also, MS' foray into the services market may go bust and after that, supporting their legacy software may be one of the few things that will earn them money.
  • In other news... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Timmmm ( 636430 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @07:41PM (#22975966)
    MSDOS is even faster! Seriously you can't just say "Vista is slower so it must be worse". There are other factors to consider - functionality, aesthetics, hardware support, security, and so on.
  • by LineGrunt ( 133002 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @07:45PM (#22975996)
    There is a significant difference between "dying" and "being killed."

    As in "the death was ruled a suicide after the victim died from three self-inflicted gunshots to the head."
  • Let it die (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ShieldW0lf ( 601553 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @07:47PM (#22976002) Journal
    Good riddance. With a new LTS release of Ubuntu coming up in a scant few weeks and support for the entire Adobe creative suite in Wine, I don't see as there's much reason to bother with it.
  • by DAldredge ( 2353 ) <SlashdotEmail@GMail.Com> on Saturday April 05, 2008 @07:49PM (#22976018) Journal
    Really? How do I run Office 2007 and VS 2008 under Linux? What about current and next gen games? How do I get those to work?
  • by neokushan ( 932374 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @07:51PM (#22976032)
    Last I checked, it was competing with free software remarkably well. In fact, it owns something like 70-90% of the market [pcpitstop.com], depending on which market you look at.
    Surely someone as open-minded, intelligent and non-biased such as yourself must stand back and admit that it must be doing SOMETHING right in order to maintain that lead, as well as for so many people to kick up a fuss now that it looks like it's going to be killed off.
    Surely, I mean surely in the near-25-years that Microsoft has been developing windows, they hit the nail on the head and released a genuinely good Operating System at least once! Surely!
    Or maybe not. Maybe nearly 90% of the users out there are all idiots or forced to use it because Microsoft has a proverbial gun stuck to their head. Those same users are also being forced to cry out loud "please no, please don't kill off XP! Please!". Or maybe it's just you.

    Just a thought.
  • Re:Activation? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 05, 2008 @07:55PM (#22976056)
    I've had to reactivate my legal copy of Windows XP so many times that I finally gave up and downloaded a pirate version...I expect many people will do the same...I purchased a copy of XP, I think it's reasonable that I should be able to replace my hard drive without having to contact Microsoft and convince them that I'm not stealing their product...If you treat your customers like thieves they just might meet your expectations...
  • Re:That was easy (Score:2, Insightful)

    by DAldredge ( 2353 ) <SlashdotEmail@GMail.Com> on Saturday April 05, 2008 @08:02PM (#22976096) Journal
    Running them under a VM or under Citrix is still running them under windows. I was told I could do it all under Linux. And I don't do console games. You don't have an answer.
  • Not the problem (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Perseid ( 660451 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @08:05PM (#22976116)
    The problem is not the increase in resource use. This is nothing new. Every release of Windows, most releases of OS X and even some new flavors of Linux have increased resource use because they do more. The big problem for Microsoft this go-'round is that Vista really doesn't give you enough reason to accept the increased resource use. XP is a perfectly fine OS and to get people to move away, especially if that move is to a resource hog, you really need to drop the hammer and give people a kick-ass must-have OS. MS clearly failed to do that in Vista and they're paying for it now.
  • by Necroman ( 61604 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @08:06PM (#22976120)
    But who's fault is that "hardware X" is not supported on Vista? OSes change over time and sometimes drivers need to be updated to support a new OS. I'd say the blame for incompatible hardware falls in the hands of both Microsoft and Hardware vendors. MS screwed up and didn't give people a backwards compatibility mode, as well, they didn't give hardware companies enough time/warning to fix the problems.

    But at the same time, it's been over 1.5 years since software houses have known that the driver stack in Vista was changing. If they wanted to support their older hardware, they should have put out new drivers by now.
  • by saleenS281 ( 859657 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @08:08PM (#22976128) Homepage
    Seriously, can we just stop doing this everytime there is a new release of windows? When XP was released it was "OH MY GOSH, NOBODY LIKES XP!!! WINDOWS2000 WILL BE AROUND FOREVER!!!!". Now we're doing it all over again with Vista. There isn't a pattern or ANYTHING. Like maybe large enterprises that move at a snail's pace tend to adopt one rev behind.

    http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/15/0035209 [slashdot.org]
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 05, 2008 @08:14PM (#22976156)
    This is so cool, you've just given me an insight into the difference between
    Linux users and Windows users:

    Linux users care about data formats. They want open standard data formats
    so they can run their *choice* of software that understands the data formats.

    That's why you find a bazillion text editors for example for editing code,
    or why there are so many multimedia apps under Linux (vlc, mplayer, xine, kaffeine,
    totem just to name a few) --- they all understand and speak the same open standards formats.

    Windows users: They want what they think is "ease of use". So they spend $$$$$$$ on
    proprietary software that does a "task" "easily", but uses a funky proprietary format
    that only *that* particular proprietary software understands. Consequently,
    the windows users are stuck on Windows because that's the only platform that
    runs their proprietary software.

    No wonder so few windows users migrate to Linux --- it's going to take a lot of pain
    of using windows (windows activation, windows genuine advantage, windows spyware,
    windows viruses, etc.) before a windows user ditches windows and moves over to
    either Linux or OS X, or one of the BSDs. Now it makes sense to me whenever
    I see such a story about some windows user moving over expressing "frustration"
    as the reason for the move. The stories didn't say they moved because Linux
    made them happier (although in most stories they were surprised to find out, that
    they were indeed happier after the learning curve), they moved because windows
    made their pain grow worse. It wasn't that Linux was "too hard" (after all they
    did make the transition), or that Linux was so much "easier" (in *my* opinion it's
    easier, but that is after all just *my* opinion), it was that giving up on windows
    meant losing so much proprietary data that there had to be a compelling reason to
    abandon windows (i.e. frustration with windows)

    Linux users on the other hand can use (and lots do) use OS X, because that OS
    also speaks to open stardards formats and can run whatever applications on OS X\
    that understand the open standards formats. It's no wonder then why it's relatively
    painless to go from Linux -> OS X, or the other way OS X -> Linux if all you're doing
    is moving data encoded using open standads formats.

    --Johnny is grateful for the epiphany.
  • Re:That was easy (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rtb61 ( 674572 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @08:23PM (#22976212) Homepage
    The answer is patience. Suck it up, there is always an awkward, uncomfortable, inconvenient, transition times between OS's. Applications that you would like to use are unavailable because the companies don't want to invest additional resources (although in an major OS swap there are lots of applications that need to get replaced).

    So in the big swap from M$ to Linux there are going to be a lot of delays and a lot of hassles. People will just stretch out the old stale piss (and yo will it get stale) for as long as they can, as they stop investing (throwing away) money into windows.

    So basically you stop buying or upgrading applications unless they are Linux variants and you get used to dual booting, windows the toy OS for play and Linux for work and the web. M$ with their consistent lies and customers abuse have forced the situation, Linux didn't create the alternate OS market M$ did.

    For the PC games companies, Linux will be a huge bonus, as all the old windows boxen die, all those games will have to be replaced, all the way back to win98, literally a market of hundreds of millions of games.

  • by abigor ( 540274 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @08:27PM (#22976230)
    How does he run them under Linux, as you suggested? Citrix or a VM STILL USE WINDOWS. The point is to NOT USE WINDOWS, remember?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 05, 2008 @08:29PM (#22976256)
    He does have a point. If using your software on Linux means you need to run Windows in a VM, then that isn't dropping the Microsoft OS altogether, is it?

    Until you can come up with a solution other than "Stop using proprietary software" or "VM Windows", it isn't going to work out.
  • by symbolset ( 646467 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @08:39PM (#22976302) Journal

    Interesting as well that the testers didn't seem to grasp the differences in the way Vista manages applications and resources. Programs running under Vista should become more responsive the more you use them.

    Not on the eee [slashdot.org] they don't. Nor under any of the 50 low cost MIDs and mini notebook pc's [moblin.org] coming out in the next few months. For the two pound laptop with six hours of battery life Vista is dead on arrival.

    Vista 14% Up From 4%

    Lies, damn lies and statistics. All the way up at 14% after a year and a half with under a year to go before the next version is out [slashdot.org]? That means it's going to peak at something under 30%. Sure, they sold lots of licenses nobody is using. They made Billions doing that. I hope that's not the kind of trick you can get people to fall for over and over. I wish I knew it for sure.

  • by SanityInAnarchy ( 655584 ) <ninja@slaphack.com> on Saturday April 05, 2008 @08:39PM (#22976304) Journal
    Depends on the game.

    If you mean all current and next gen games, you'd better have a few consoles, too.

    If you just mean enough, there are quite a few games with Linux ports (more than you'd think), and more run under Wine. I honestly don't have time to play all the games that I could play on Linux. I will confess I dual-boot, though -- to XP.

    The answer to Office and VS is to run alternatives -- in particular, if you have to run VS at all, chances are you're not developing anything that would run on Linux anyway.

    Personally, I'm much more willing to put up with the pain of getting games to work on Linux, then getting everything else to work on Vista -- or simply working with Vista at all. Right now, I'd sooner give up games than boot Vista.
  • by sentientbrendan ( 316150 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @08:40PM (#22976314)
    What I'd like to see is a more concerted effort to address the problems with Vista. Microsoft could make Vista as fast and usable as XP today if they would just get through their thick heads that some of the policies they came up with for vista are bone headed.

    Consider:

    1. Drivers. There's no reason Vista can't be made compatible with XP's faster video drivers, except that Microsoft is being stubborn.

    2. 64 bit support. Microsoft has willfully hamstrung Vista 64 by not providing compatibility with 32 bit drivers, and by making the Vista 64 driver model more restrictive than the Vista 32 bit. If you look at Apple's systems, they have a much better model where 32 bit drivers work *fine* on a 64 bit system. There's no reason your video card driver needs to be 64 bit anyway...

    3. Background tasks. Here's a hint: Let us easily turn them the fuck off. There should be some kind of Windows performance control panel that provides a central place to switch off file indexing, and the endless other miscellaneous tasks that spin the drive on Vista *constantly*.

    Until those issues are addressed, it's stupid to expect gamers who need good graphics drivers, and laptop users who can't have the spinning harddrive wearing down the battery constantly to take a second look at Vista.

    I gave Vista a good 6 months, and really did appreciate things like not having to run as administrator constantly. I felt much more secure running with lower privileges user like I do on my Ubuntu and OSX installs. However, dispite the fact that I tweaked the hell out of my system (including turning off file indexing and switching off aero in favor of the win2k look), and the fact that my system *should* be ridiculously overpowered by looking at the hardware specs, the background services made my system run like a *dog*.

    I've switched back to XP, and it is like night and day. Suddenly, my machine no longer locks up doing some stupid task in the background. Suddenly, the stutter is gone from my games. Suddenly, everything is snappier.

    What's more, I now actually get to run with file indexing ON, by using the google desktop. This gives me all of the same search functionality as I got on vista, but with no noticeable performance overhead. Hell, I could probably start running as a non admin user on XP, now that applications have finally been forced to learn to live with reduced permissions for Vista compatibility...
  • by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @08:45PM (#22976342)
    That's a given. But if you don't show the user where his performance goes, he gets a tad bit upset.

    When you switched from Dos to 95, you saw the difference. Quite literally. When you went from 98 to 2k, you noticed it (in a LOT fewer BSODs). Since then, though, it has become rather hard to explain the decreased performance.
  • What's more (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sycraft-fu ( 314770 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @08:47PM (#22976350)
    It isn't as though MS changes driver requirements all that often. There has been a real long time between XP and Vista. MS isn't requiring people to release new drivers every 6 months, more like every 5-6 years. That isn't unreasonable. Have a look at how often nVidia has to change their Linux drivers and tell me who requires more.

    Also, as you noted, it isn't as though there hasn't been some time. Vista has been on the open market for over a year now, and MS told their developers at Beta 2 that all the driver interfaces were stable. That's a lot of time to have developed a new driver. If you still haven't, well I have trouble feeling that it is MS's fault. If you can't learn the new (very well documented) interfaces in a year's time, well then there is something wrong on your end.

    Computers change, that is simply a fact of life. If you can't deal with that, then you are in teh wrong business. You can't expect to release something and not have to change it for 30 years. Interfaces (serial, USB, firewire, etc) will change, buses (PCI, PCIe) will change. OSes will change. You are going to have to update to support those.

    When Vista first came out, I told people to lay off the hardware companies. It takes time to build a stable driver on new architecture, especially the video card companies who had some really massive changes. Now, I don't defend the hardware companies at all. You've had a year, and just about everyone does have a stable, tested driver out. If you still can't, well that is your problem, not MS's.
  • by symbolset ( 646467 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @08:53PM (#22976402) Journal

    He's not asking "How do I use Linux to solve a problem?" He's asking "If I use Linux, how do I still give Microsoft money?" If the question were the former, the question would have been "How do I deal with these .docx documents?" In that case my answer would be to use OO.o to convert them to a standard format, except for the ones that stupidly require vendor specific software. For those you still have to use MSOffice apps to convert them until you can get your contacts to use an interoperable format, and that means probably Citrix.

    We don't tolerate people sending us .WP documents or VisiCalc spreadsheets any more, do we? Unless we must, and then we convert them.

    For gaming the problem is the same. Game developers are developing on the Windows platform not because DirectX is such a joy to work with or because it's a nice reliably consistent platform. Neither of those things are true. They're doing it because they sell a lot of copies and because they're evangelised to do it. The sooner they're weaned from that the better, and shifting to console games for a while can ease the transition. The point of playing games after all is not to play them on your PC. It's to play them. So play them on a platform that's designed for them. Duh.

    If he wants to just give Microsoft money for no reason, he can continue to overlicense unused software like most enterprises are doing right now. That's a hearty way to flush some serious cash down the Redmond toilet for no reason if that's what you want to do. As abhorrent as the idea is, it's still better than actually using that stuff.

  • by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @08:55PM (#22976418)
    The difference is that this time it's not just the geeks. Sure, you always had geeks lamenting that they will not, under any circumstances, accept the horrible changes (be it activation in XP, DRM in Vista...), and that the whole system looks so Teletubby, and that they won't touch it with a 10 foot pole. Not even with a 0x10 feet one.

    But usually, the general audience and especially companies accepted the new system. It offered more ease of use, easier integration of peripherals, looked nicer and so on. Vista is different, though. Yes, it looks nicer. But people started to catch on. They noticed that the final version for an MS product is sporting an "SP2" sticker next to it. They got what they want in XP. They heard that this or that hardware doesn't work in Vista anymore. But the biggest problem is what we (geeks) have been lamenting for years now, and which backfired when MS started to take it serious: Security. UAC is one of the things that is very high on the annoyances list of the average user.

    This is the difference this time. It's not only the geeks who turn their noses at the new MS-OS. It's a general sentiment. And even OEM manufacturers are pressing MS for prolongued support for XP, since they saw the demand for machines with an "old" OS. Tells you something. Because geeks are certainly no important market segment. Yes, we buy more soft- and hardware than the average guy (ok, at least hardware, since the real, pure geek won't touch anything but OSS... yeah, yeah), but we're few compared to the masses buying PCs these days. And we're picky, and we're not easily turned away when something doesn't work out, we're not really an interesting customer group. Certainly we're not the core customers for Dell or HP. And these companies exactly demanded and pressed for longer OEM sales of XP.

    So the rejection of Vista isn't the geek phenomenon that it usually is. It's a much, much broader reaction this time.
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @08:56PM (#22976432)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by Junta ( 36770 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @09:00PM (#22976460)
    I use linux very extensively and find a number of niceties (compiz has far more practical features than Vista and OSX, and a number of general benefits of running a platform that is comprised entirely of things I can examine transparently myself but also is a healthy competitive landscape from the commercial vendor perspective). Making the hardware consist of interchangeable commodity parts has done wonders for the pricing of components, and the similar phenomenon is even more pronounced in software. Every user including gamers should appreciate what that means. Especially as MS increasingly treats the customers as the enemy (embracing DRM, increasingly bold 'anti-piracy' measures).

    That said there are certain approaches:
    -Ignore Linux and gaming. The highly immediately pragmatic stand, probably what you would justify. The question here becomes are you forced up the upgrade trail by Vista? A weaker, yet not currently aggravating stance is to at least boycott Vista and tell microsoft you won't pay, and by extension boycotting games if they make DirectX 10 a requirement, hardware if they fail to provide XP drivers, etc.

    -Use Linux and cave if Wine will run the game. Wine runs a surprisingly large number of games (Orange Box a popular example). This, of course, doesn't necessarily send the desired message, but it goes a ways. I have seen software patches and graphics drivers note Wine-specific issues, so some developers are seeing Wine as a valid demographic to target given the effort. This requires being vocal about your mode of usage, or else face game patches screwing up your experience by making Wine-incompatible design choices.

    -Use Linux and refuse to buy any non-native games. There are some publishers that released native games. NeverWinter Nights (but not 2), id games, Savage 2. Reward them for publishing quality games for your platform, while being vocal about refusal to buy other titles. There are some decent Free games too, I was surprised how decent Nexuiz was (though I confess the artwork isn't as nice as other games, but the engine seems pretty good at its core).

    I'm a hybrid of sorts. I'll check out a demo under wine if the game is overwhelmingly interesting (i.e. orange box) to see if I want it and would risk it, but will be much much more likely to buy a random game with a native linux binary. A lot of my gaming is reserved for console games, but FPS and RTS and the like I feel no console has an adequate interface (though metroid prime on wii was not too shabby). BTW, server-only binaries on linux aren't enough for me. I know it seems like being partly evangelical, but the reality is I want more out of my core platform experience and don't want to be beholden to a single corporate entity. The PC architecture is great for that, with multiple compatible vendors for practically every part except the OS platform, so long as MS is the dominant vendor. Making moves to change that is a good thing for consumers.
  • Re:That was easy (Score:5, Insightful)

    by multisync ( 218450 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @09:23PM (#22976608) Journal

    you trailed off before you came up with a suitable alternative to VisualStudio

    What about Photoshop?


    If you're a developer and you need a full-blown IDE you may need to run VisualStudio and XP or Vista on the machine you use for development. Same if you're a graphics artist. You might have to spend $600.00 or whatever it is to get Photoshop, and get used to the idea that you'll have to run it in Vista whether you want it or not.

    But that's not most people. Most people's needs are actually better met with FOSS projects if they are mature enough (just like proprietary software) and have a healthy community of users and developers supporting them.

    If you are a pro, or a serious amateur, it may be worth your the investment to buy Photoshop, even if you have to purchase a machine dedicated to the task of using it. But if you have a cubicle farm full of people using email, a word processor and an accounting package and maybe sharing printers and doing some simple file sharing, you can do that all very efficiently with Linux. Spend the money on the departments that may need an expensive piece of proprietary software - and the hardware required to run it. But don't assume it is the only solution, or even the best solution, especially for departments (and users) with more modest needs.
  • by Snowmit ( 704081 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @09:27PM (#22976634) Homepage

    The sooner they're weaned from that the better, and shifting to console games for a while can ease the transition. The point of playing games after all is not to play them on your PC. It's to play them. So play them on a platform that's designed for them. Duh.

    WHAT

    I thought that Linux fans were also the DIY folks. Saying to people making games "Oh I guess you should start working only on proprietary systems that require either fees or homebrew cracks to get them to work" is madness!

    The reason there is a vibrant indie gaming scene is the relative ease of development, accessibility and ubiquity of the Windows platform. Sure if Linux can take over and become the default OS, the indie scene might move over there, but suggesting that in the meantime people should limit their gaming consumption exclusively to proprietary gaming systems is really stupid and counterproductive.

  • by bigstrat2003 ( 1058574 ) * on Saturday April 05, 2008 @09:33PM (#22976662)

    The point of playing games after all is not to play them on your PC. It's to play them. So play them on a platform that's designed for them. Duh.
    Get back to me when a strategy game or FPS has been made on a console which is anywhere near as good as the best strategy/FPS games on the PC. It hasn't happened, and probably never will.

    If he wants to just give Microsoft money for no reason
    Wanting to use the apps you like is not "no reason". Until Linux will run all the apps I want (or even just most, that's certainly not asking too much) transparently, with no hassle, it will continue to be a vastly inferior OS for my use. Sorry, but them's just the facts: application availability does matter. Your argument that it doesn't is like telling someone that they should get a Wii because of its innovative and easy controller, even though the 360 has most of the games they like.
  • Eclipse (Score:5, Insightful)

    by symbolset ( 646467 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @09:39PM (#22976710) Journal

    Until they sell out the rest of the way Eclipse makes a nice development platform to replace Visual Studio. If they do sell out there will be a fork. You'll find that if Eclipse isn't included in your distribution you'll find it in the Applications installer. All linux users can develop applications on day one if they want to. They don't have to, but since it's built by developers they served their own needs first. It turns out programming is not some occult science after all.

    As for J#, C#, VB and WebDev, we're back to the same "How do I keep giving Microsoft money" question again. Those are not standards. They're proprietary solutions and stuff you build on them will obsolete every time Microsoft decides it needs more of your money. It's a trap. Don't fall into it. If you must program in those soon-to-be dead languages then you've created your own predicament and nobody can help you.

    Photoshop? Enough with the photoshop. I don't care about photoshop. If you need a dedicated photoshop box it's no excuse to chain everyone in your enterprise to Windows when it's only you that is determined to suffer.

    3d? You have to be frimping kidding. You don't really think Windows is a cutting edge 3d platform do you? On what planet?

  • Re:That was easy (Score:3, Insightful)

    by menkhaura ( 103150 ) <espinafre@gmail.com> on Saturday April 05, 2008 @09:49PM (#22976768) Homepage Journal
    Of course no one can switch their business overnight, that's what WINE, Xen and other such projects are for. But I'm here to pick you on your point about IDEs. Photoshop not running on Linux isn't Linux's fault; it's entirely Adobe's fault..

    But, Visual Studio? Well, we're talking about a completely different philosophy, and a different development model here. First of all, the greatest functionality of all that Visual Studio provides to developers is easy access to documentation. A *nix developer will have his reference documentation in a browser, as many windows as he can have. In-code reference? We all know about Eclipse's C-H etc., or even Vim's cscope plugin, and Emacs users also have more than one solution. The possibilities are endless. *# languages, as well as VB, are belong to Microsoft. I don't believe in Mono. And, frankly, beginner developers, those that Microsoft cater to with their Studio products, should hone their skills on a college or university and learn how to program properly before entering the market.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 05, 2008 @09:50PM (#22976776)
    Yes, history is repeating itself, but you missed the proper analogy:

    Win98:ME::XP:Vista

  • by multisync ( 218450 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @10:11PM (#22976886) Journal

    You still need a copy of Windows on the VM and Vista isn't particularly pleasant in that type of environment.


    Did my XP licenses all just disappear in a puff of smoke? That's one of the advantages to have at least a few beige boxes running off-the-shelf XP Pro. If the hardware dies, you can install the OS in a VM and still get use out of it.

    As far as I know Office 2007 runs just fine in XP. If it doesn't, run Office 2003. Or OpenOffice.org. Or run Office 2007 on a Vista box if you just have to.

    But don't tell me it's Office 2007 and VS 2008 or nothing. For most users that's not the case. If you need it, spend the money on it and be happy.
  • by abigor ( 540274 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @10:16PM (#22976908)
    Windows 2000 is still getting updates. I have a laptop which I've lent out to a friend and she has it hooked up directly to her cable modem. No problems at all.

    The major vector for infection is IE, so obviously she doesn't use that. And she's not running as Administrator, but under a user account.
  • by EveLibertine ( 847955 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @10:36PM (#22977010)
    Unsurprisingly, you display a tremendous lack of knowledge about video game design. Go talk to a proper game designer about the differences between PC and console games. You'll discover that most developers are forced to dumb down their console products so that they do not scare away console gamers who may be confused with things that have more than 10 buttons.

    Current gen consoles are making progress, weening console gamers into more complex gaming that has been on the pc for years, but its still not anywhere close to the mark.

    In short, PC games have a different design process from console games, and your suggestion to use a console for PC gaming is completely and laughably absurd. It contains the same short sighted illogic of your suggestion to use citrix in linux to run an office application. Your only concern seems to be to stop giving microsoft money, with absolutely no concern for the real requirements that were originally provided. In light of these facts, I wouldn't be surprised to find that you work for microsoft.

    As a side note: You suggest giving money to Sony instead of Microsoft? Short sighted indeed.
  • by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @10:49PM (#22977054)
    All I see from the statistics you offered that Vista climbed in the time from Jan 2007 to Feb 2008 by about 8%. Could you explain where you get the confidence from that it will multiply its market share by 2.5 within two month?

    THAT it grows is a given. It's the new OS from MS. Anything but a growth in market share would be a complete and utter desaster for MS. Interesting is which OSs Vista takes market shares from. You'll notice that it gains about as much from 2k users as it does from XP (with "alternative" systems staying pretty much stable). It seems that at least half of the "early adopters" had to, since the support for 2k has died, and they went for Vista, skipping XP altogether.

    Also, please take note what this statistic measures. It counts the machines that connect to that certain page via the internet. So I would probably be counted as a Windows XP machine, even though this is only a virtual machine running on linux. We're also not counting any servers here. Else I'd say that MS is really, really in big doodoo, considering that according to that statistic, more than twice as many Macs or Linux machines are running than 2003 servers.

    Makes sense for the W3Schools, since they are mainly concerned with the question which machines access webpages on the net (and even more so, what browser they use). But taking this as a measurement for the amount of machines on certain OSs doesn't hold enough water to make me a cup of Java.
  • by GigaplexNZ ( 1233886 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @10:51PM (#22977068)
    Yes, there are a lot of advantages to a VM. But switching from Windows on native hardware to Windows in a VM is not a solution if you are eliminating Windows from the picture.

    Using distrowatch as a source to show where to migrate to? No thanks. That will only tell me what distro all the fanboy-types prefer as they are the type to go to that site to get their hits counted. Most of the Linux servers or professional workstations don't visit that site for their hit quota.

    I never said that you literally can't migrate, I said that the solution given to that particular problem doesn't actually solve the issue. The ironic thing is that this post is coming from a Linux box, so don't try to tell me that I'm all for sticking with Windows.

    As for the poster below:

    Did my XP licenses all just disappear in a puff of smoke? That's one of the advantages to have at least a few beige boxes running off-the-shelf XP Pro. If the hardware dies, you can install the OS in a VM and still get use out of it.
    No, you can't. The license does not permit you to move OEM copies to a different host. So if the machine dies, the license did just go up in a puff of smoke. I don't think I have ever seen a retail license on business owned machines, but if you did then that might leave that option open.

    Since when did I say that it has to be Office 2007 over 2003? It was the original poster that asked about those specific versions. However, the point still stands. It may not be Office specifically tying someone to Windows, it could be something else. Let's say I want to perform a task, and my financial security depends on my performance. I choose the best piece of software for that specific task. I then use the OS that is required for that piece of software. Choosing the OS first and then using sub-par software as the "free choice alternative" is not the smartest way to go. Not all free alternatives are sub par and in fact are often better for mainstream tasks. But don't try to convince everyone that they must be using free software when their situation may be different.
  • by symbolset ( 646467 ) on Saturday April 05, 2008 @10:58PM (#22977096) Journal

    Eventually gaming on Linux will catch up. In the interim, console gaming is a good substitute. When you're striking the chains some pain is to be expected.

    As a side note: You suggest giving money to Sony instead of Microsoft? Short sighted indeed.

    When Microsoft's goal was to save us from the evil monolith that was IBM, I was their biggest fan. Now I'm a big fan of IBM and not Microsoft. This isn't difficult to understand. I haven't changed sides. They have.

  • by dfghjk ( 711126 ) on Sunday April 06, 2008 @12:39AM (#22977600)
    Exactly, but what's even more stupid is the assumption that Linux has something to offer Microsoft. Of all the problems MS faces, developing a desirable core OS isn't one of them and Linux wouldn't be at the top of their list even it it were. MS could develop an entirely new OS using a Windows emulation environment, but they wouldn't need either Linux OR WINE to make that happen.
  • by tknd ( 979052 ) on Sunday April 06, 2008 @12:52AM (#22977644)

    There's no reason Vista can't be made compatible with XP's faster video drivers, except that Microsoft is being stubborn.

    I believe the reasoning is that output drivers now run in a new model where if a driver fails, it will not crash the system. There have been many cases where my ATI driver crashed but Vista 64 was able to restart it without bluescreening. In XP a driver crash will take down your entire system whether it be some stupid usb device like a microphone or the video driver.

    making the Vista 64 driver model more restrictive than the Vista 32 bit

    I actually like the fact that the driver system is more restrictive. There were a lot of companies selling hardware that they claimed "compatible" with WinXP but would ultimately make your system unstable. To date, I have 2 vista computers and they have not crashed while in use.

    Let us easily turn them the fuck off.

    That's a good idea. They'd probably listen if you submitted that one to them.

    the background services made my system run like a *dog*

    I disabled indexing and it didn't do much. Next I disabled Windows defender (aka windows antivirus) and now my disk is much quieter. I still have the superfetch or whatever they call the aggressive caching feature on so my programs load almost instantaneously (including firefox).

    I also still run aero, but I disabled all animations. The animations make the system feel slower even though it actually isn't. The same was true in Win95 to Win98 when they made the start menu scroll up when you opened it rather than instantly appear.

  • slower... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by smash ( 1351 ) on Sunday April 06, 2008 @12:59AM (#22977682) Homepage Journal
    ... no shit? However, DOS was way quicker at running DOS apps than windows, and look where that went.

    Features don't come for free. The different in speed for most things is negligible.

    Processor time is cheap, programmer time is expensive. *If* the new features mean we get better quality apps due to shared libraries/services built into the OS, then I don't see the problem.

  • by EveLibertine ( 847955 ) on Sunday April 06, 2008 @01:25AM (#22977792)

    When you're striking the chains some pain is to be expected.
    I'll take this for what it is: an admission that your "solution" doesn't actually meet the requirements presented by the problem.

    You say gaming will catch up; so your solution doesn't work now, but somewhere in some possible future? You say that eventually people will move to standardized file formats, sometime in this glorious future.

    How can you expect people to use a product that you readily admit doesn't suit their needs instead of one that actually does fulfill all the requirements with a few very notable drawbacks? The point is that with this "wrong" solution requirements are being resolved with a trade-off. Your solution doesn't meet their needs now and also has notable trade-offs. Guess which one people will consistently choose?

    I still don't understand why you bothered bringing IBM into this to explain why you suggested that instead of giving money to one evil corporation, that getting a PS3 and thus giving money to another evil corporation is better? You're acting like you've got scruples, but it seems they're just blinders. Do you so intensely hate Microsoft that you're willing to allow wrongs done by another corporation corporation slide unnoticed? Once again, a compromise I'm not willing to make for another non-solution.

    Don't get me wrong, I love Linux, and I know from first hand experience that a decent sized company [centro.net] can be run almost exclusively on open source software. I've got 3 linux boxes, a gaming pc, and a 360 all sitting on the very same desk. It didn't burst into flames or anything. The point is, I love and support FLOSS, but I hate when people propose it for solutions for which it isn't intended (yet) because when it inevitable goes wrong it hurts the chances of any other FLOSS projects seeing the light of day within these restricted environments. So cut it out, will you?
  • Re:Disingenuous (Score:3, Insightful)

    by symbolset ( 646467 ) on Sunday April 06, 2008 @03:13AM (#22978146) Journal

    If it's made today, you cannot define it as "not modern". If it's not even released yet you're revealing your bias completely. Tomorrow's technology is by definition "post modern".

  • by Kwirl ( 877607 ) <kwirlkarphys@gmail.com> on Sunday April 06, 2008 @03:14AM (#22978154)

    In my house I run Windows XP Media Edition, 2x Windows XP Pro, and Vista Ultimate 64. Hands down Vista is my favorite OS to use. Granted, early versions were harder to swallow, as I have been using Vista since early Beta.

    However, the major problems I had initially have been addressed. Driver compatibility, Stability and Memory usage - since SP1 at least, all of these problems have gone away for me, most of them long before SP1.

    While Vista may not be the best choice for everyone, I use it for Office 2007, Photoshop, Video Encoding, and Gaming (Crysis/2142) and have nothing but praises to sing for those uses.

    Of course, I realize gamers that use basic photo editing software and office applications are in the minority....

  • by ozmanjusri ( 601766 ) <aussie_bob@hotmail . c om> on Sunday April 06, 2008 @04:01AM (#22978308) Journal
    If you like their products, buy them. If not, don't. It's really much more simple than this religious war you make it out to be.

    Then give me unencumbered formats, protocols and architectures.

  • by wall0159 ( 881759 ) on Sunday April 06, 2008 @05:35AM (#22978524)
    "Until Linux will run all the apps I want (or even just most, that's certainly not asking too much) transparently, with no hassle,"

    Hell, Windows doesn't meet those criteria! In my experience, using Linux is MUCH less hassle than using Windows. It's true, not every Windows app runs under Linux, but there's this thing called a 'trade-off' - I believe that the relative ease of installation, use and maintenance of Linux much more than compensates for a couple of missing apps*.

    *things like certain pro-audio apps, high-end graphics packages - y'know, those apps that everyone likes to have a hot copy, but 99.99% of people don't even know how to open (let alone use). People used to collect stamps - now they collect warez...
  • by civilizedINTENSITY ( 45686 ) on Sunday April 06, 2008 @06:59AM (#22978744)
    Your confusion between capitalism (which tends to lead to monopolies, and really is about wealth creation) and free-markets (which by definition has the inherent requirement of a balance of power and isn't about wealth creation so much as allocation of resources) doesn't help. In fact its counterproductive. People don't like to be told that there preferences are bad for them, be said preferences for drugs, or fatty foods, or encumbered formats, protocols and architectures. Be aware: patience does little good in a system where the advantages of increasing returns has already emerged. We are stuck with keyboards designed to slow down touch typists so that the keys don't jam. Still waiting? Ah yep.
  • Re:That was easy (Score:5, Insightful)

    by legirons ( 809082 ) on Sunday April 06, 2008 @08:48AM (#22979170)

    you trailed off before you came up with a suitable alternative to VisualStudio

    What about Photoshop?

    I'm sure that you can come up with all sorts of programs which justify keeping Windows. ("well I *must* run microsoft office")

    I'm sure you can come up with all sorts of features which prevent you from using free alternatives. ("a fully-featured graphics editor? that's no use; it doesn't support CMYK natively")

    I'm sure that no matter what the free software world provides for you, you'll be able to find some fault with it.

    And that's fine. You can stick with your current supplier and hope that it all works out okay.

    This article is about their next-generation OS being unusable though, and about the end-of-life for the OS which everyone uses. Still feel confident about keeping all your computing tasks tied to that supplier?

    The answer isn't to respond to every offer of free software with "well it doesn't do x, therefore I'll pour scorn on its authors and remain with a homogenous Microsoft solution to everything". A more sensible approach would be to start moving what you can to free platforms while you still have a chance.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 06, 2008 @12:00PM (#22980308)
    It does sound crazy because it would be completely retarded for them to do that. In Windows the kernel is NOT the problem. The kernel is a well designed microkernel based on Dec VMS written by a team who had written a series of very successful OSes prior to working at Microsoft. The Windows kernel is very well designed and is in many ways superior to Linux. It was written to be highly modular, highly portable and highly reliable. It has multiple application subsystems that run in user mode that can be launched independently and concurrently, and debugged across subsystem. If that sounds familiar it's what GNU has been trying do to with Hurd, spectacularly unsuccessfully, for over 20 years (and for those who dare to claim that Hurd is not unsuccessful, if after 20 years all you have is a 0.2 release on top of someone else's kernel, that ain't success.)

    The problem with Windows is the Win16/32 API. That API set was designed for Windows 3.x which set out to achieve a completely different set of goals, and executed in a completely different environment where multithreading and hardware protection domains did not exist. The intended API for Windows NT was OS/2, which retained that application subsystem up until the Windows 2000 release, after which it was removed because nobody used it.

    But you already don't have to use the Win32 user-mode subsystem in Windows. Microsoft has released a largely functional POSIX subsystem called Interix in the Services for Unix toolset, which was originally developed by SoftWay Systems and called OpenNT. Unlike cygwin, which is a POSIX API layer running within and on top of the Win32 subsystem, Interix is a complete implementation of an environment subsystem and runs independently of the Win32 subsystem.

    Microsoft's core problems have to do with legacy. It's easy to forget that DOS and Windows 3.x ran on hardware on which UNIX and Linux simply could not run. Those architectures lacked many of the features we take for granted, especially hardware protection domains. Applications expected and often required total hardware access. There could be no concept of security because nothing could enforce it. Microsoft takes legacy very seriously, so much so that a large percentage of those DOS applications still execute on Vista, although within a virtual machine. You could argue that Microsoft should do what Apple did and simply cut their losses and break every application that does not adhere to the proper security guidelines that Microsoft published 15 years ago, and I wouldn't disagree with you. Microsoft is slowly trying to unbury themselves, first by cutting everyone over to a hardware protected kernel in Windows XP, and now by curring everyone over to a constrained execution environment with virtualized file system access in Windows Vista. Instead of everything not working all at once, a segment of the software stops working and most of it chugs on fine. I personally think it's admirable that Microsoft has managed to change so many things and retain so much legacy support. How many other platforms can you name where 25 year old software will run without a hitch? Certainly not Apple, and certainly not Linux.
  • by drsmithy ( 35869 ) <drsmithy@nOSPAm.gmail.com> on Sunday April 06, 2008 @07:29PM (#22983428)

    This all sounds a lot like Apple, MacOS X and Classic, doesn't it?

    No, it does not. With MacOS "Classic" Apple had a single user OS with no memory protection, no pre-emptive multitasking, no multiprocessor support, nothing. Their OS was a technological relic.

    With NT, Microsoft has an OS with everything Linux has to offer, plus more. Why on Earth would they throw that all away to create Yet Another Linux Dustribution ?

An Ada exception is when a routine gets in trouble and says 'Beam me up, Scotty'.

Working...