Engineers Have a Terrorist Mindset?

An anonymous reader writes "Do engineers have a way of looking at the world not all that different from terrorists? According to an article in the EE Times, they do. The story cites 'Engineers of Jihad,' a paper (pdf download) by two Oxford University sociologists, who found that graduates in science, engineering, and medicine are strongly overrepresented among Islamist movements. The paper also found that engineers are 'over-represented' among graduates who gravitate to violent groups. Authors Diego Gambetta and Steffen Hertog chalk this all up to what they call the 'engineering mindset,' which they define as 'a mindset that inclines them to take more extreme conservative and religious positions.' Is this just pop psychology masquerading as science?"

The Engineer

[Raul654]

One of the foremost terrorists in the history of the middle east was Yahaya Ayyash [wikipedia.org], an electrical engineer (educated at Beir Ziet University) who built bombs for Hamas's Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. His bombs ended up killing over 100 civilians (mostly Israeli, but also Americans and other Westerners in Israel) and dozens of soldiers, ambulance workers, and other first responders.

Re:The Engineer

[aproposofwhat]

Another leading terrorist was Menachim Begin, who was a lawyer. His Irgun group were responsible for the bombing of the King David Hotel [wikipedia.org], and for several massacres of Arab villages after the establishment of the Zionist state.

Your point was what, exactly?

Re:"more extreme conservative and religious positi

[RobotRunAmok]

...except that nearly all of the most extreme, strident, unforgiving and tediously sanctimonious people I have been running across lately seem to be atheists. What's the world coming to when the religious right have a better sense of humor about themselves than the lefty atheists? I'd call it one of the "signs of the apocalypse," but that'd be a religious reference and some atheist would start preaching at me, so let's just leave it that I'm amused and amazed...

Re:The Engineer

[Raul654]

Ayyash's bombs were quite intentionally designed to kill as many people as possible (they were packed with nails and other shrapnel - and laced with rat poison - to ensure maximum lethality). The Irgun made it a point to minimize the casualties from their bombings - they called the King David hotel ahead and time and warned people to get out.

Re:is it April 1? ( Not Yet...)

[orclevegam]

Slight clarification about that last point. We do in fact seem to hear a lot about "Inept Terrorists" in the news, although the news never reports them as inept, rather they spin it as the brave efforts of the police narrowly avoiding massive catastrophe. Never mind the fact that the plan the morons had concocted was so bad they would at most hurt (or kill) themselves, and if they got really lucky a few bystanders. Good example was a recent case where some "terrorists" had loaded their cars up with cans of gasoline and then planned on lighting them on fire believing this would lead to massive explosions (this happened over in England btw). Anyone who knows about these types of things knows all you're going to get is a big hot fireball as the car burns down, and that's about it (might work if you had a proper fuel air mixture, but just dumping containers of gas in a car isn't going to cut it). So yeah, plenty of inept to go around.

Re:Why not?

[Goaway]

The authors have found that graduates in subjects such as science, engineering, and medicine are strongly overrepresented among Islamist movements in the Muslim world. The authors also note that engineers, alone, are strongly over-represented among graduates who gravitate to violent groups.

Interrogated: Welcome to the New America!

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

From the "Stolen Bikes Ride Faster" Blog. DHS deletes a research scientists' blog posts - then send in the goons to interrogate him for six hours:

As many of you now know, I was recently detained and questioned by the FBI [typepad.com] regarding several posts on this blog. Two of the posts in question were first altered, then removed all together, by what appeared to be the Dept. of Homeland Security. I've been thinking about how to describe this experience. Last night, I talked briefly about what happened and why in an e-mail to Rich over at The New Freedom [thenewfreedom.net]. He's got a great site over there, by the way. I've decided that that e-mail is probably about as thorough as I care to be regarding my little adventure, at least for now. Here's the copy that I sent him - I invite all of you to read it for yourselves:

Hey Rich, just wanted to follow up on your comment on my blog and the post on yours. My name's Rob, by the way, hi, nice to meet you. Apparently, I actually did upset a few people with some of the information I posted. This resulted in an involuntary trip to the local FBI offices. Didn't even know they were in town - guess they're everywhere these days.
        So from what I gathered in our conversation (if you can call it that - it was a bit one-sided), a couple of things set them off. They've got some tracking software sorting through everything out there, looking for certain keywords. If it picks up a keyword, you get put on a list and monitored. I got flagged the first time as a result of my post on Canada placing the US on its terror watch list. Among other things, mention of Guantanamo, Afghanistan, torture, and terrorism set the software off.
        A couple of posts later, I did a parody of an interview with al-Quaeda representative Ayman al-Zawahri. This seemed to set them off, too. They wanted to know what my connections were to the group - I guess they were obligated to ask. The thing that really got them in that article was an offhand remark about the weaponization of smallpox based on some work an Australian research group did with mousepox. Here's a link to the research:

sciencedirect article

You may need a subscription to view it, I'm not sure. Anyway, I assumed that this was pretty common knowledge. Of course, I also work in biomedical chemistry, so I guess I hear some things the general public doesn't. They were really freaked out about this. Don't blame them - if you've got some time, pick up Ken Alibeck's (sp?) book on the supposedly now-defunct Russian bioterrorism program. But that's a story for another day.
        The stuff about homegrown terrorism was the last straw, they said. I guess posting instructions for some lame explosives along with criticism of HR1955 pissed them off. They decided to teach me a lesson by first censoring, then removing the offending blog post. They figured that if I was posting stuff like this, it was only a matter of time before I moved on to more complex agents, based on my education and employment background. It took me about six and a half hours to convince these assholes that I'm not a terrorist. I am certain I'm on every watch list they've got now. Not looking forward to my next trip to the airport, that's for damn sure.
        I guess that's about it. I appreciate your concern, and the fact that you're spreading the word - people definitely need to know about this. But standing up for your rights on paper is one thing; it's a different story when they come knocking on your door and give you the opportunity to do it in person. A word of caution: this shit is real. Do what you can to stay off of that list, man. I'm sure that it was just an odd series of coincidences that sent them my way, but better to be safe. Anyhow, I'm probably going to post briefly in the next day or two, once I have time to organize my thoughts, and then stick to the fiction from here on out. Well, let me know if you have any more questions, and keep doing what you're doing.

Re:is it April 1?

[cozziewozzie]

A lot of these Chinese students have been taught all their lives that Americans are barbarians, decadent, corrupt, etc,etc... From their point of view, they have been sent into a hostile environment to get an education, and then return to the PRC to use their knowledge to help their country get ahead of the US. Some of the Indians are that way too when they first get to the US. It's part culture shock and part xenophobia. They are the ones with the problem, not you.

This hasn't been my experience at all. It seems to me that you are the one who is xenophobic.

With most Chinese people, it is a combination of finding it difficult to adjust to a very different culture, and trying really hard to finish their education, as their families probably invested their life savings into it.

Most Chinese people who come over to study are very good students who got where they are through extreme studying in a ridiculously competitive environment. The parties in China are very different, as are human relationships, and it's a huge culture shock for many of them. So they concentrate on the important thing -- their studies. Most of them are postgraduates from prestigious universities.

Some people expect students like those who have just arrived from China to join all the frat parties, get drunk, go to the NFL games and listen to nu-metal, and this is very unrealistic. Many of them are married, quiet people, with imperfect English, who enjoy the company of other people from their home country. Most of them are extremely nice if you actually approach them and put in the effort to know them better.

Re:scientiststendtobeliberals

[dbIII]

I'm not so sure about that. Slashdotters tend to be libertarians

Those of us who are not in the USA really do not know what that means despite many efforts to explain it and the "anarchists that want the government to protect them from their slaves" cracks that I hope are way off the mark.

Re:is it April 1?

[gr8scot]

He hasn't said anything new or original.

Well I know he does a good job of citing his sources, even when he paraphrases. That is not the same thing as not saying "anything new or original."

Give me a break, Sam Harris has been debunked by any religious scholar with a basic education.

The word "debunked" applies to a person's claims. If many of a person's claims are disproved, that person is discredited. Only claims, such as "Sam Harris exists" can be disproved or "debunked." Given that you used his name as the object of a real action, I surmise that you concede his existence to be a fact. Logically, therefore, your statement about his nonexistence is nonsensical & self-contradictory.