US Blocks Entry For German Black Hat Presenter 348
bushwhacker2000 alerts us to the dilemma of Thomas Dullien, a prominent security researcher who has been a fixture at the annual Black Hat security conference. Dullien was denied entry into the US on his way to this year's conference. Dullien, a German reverse-engineering expert known in hacker circles as "Halvar Flake," said he was blocked from entering the US on the technicality that he had (years ago) signed a contract with Black Hat as an individual, not as his company. Customs agents said he would need an H1-B visa to perform the contracted two days of training at Black Hat, and put him on the next plane back to Germany.
Hurrah! (Score:5, Insightful)
The law is the law... (Score:1, Insightful)
Technicality? (Score:5, Insightful)
Just move BlackHat off the US! (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't want to go to the US anymore. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now I have to fear that the people here did not do their work properly (i.e. gave me the wrong visa application), and that I'll be rejected at the gates after standing in a huge queue before immigration at the airport.
The other reason is that after providing the security services with boatloads of personal information, fingerprints and other biometrics, some flag will go up in some obscure system, and I'll be (hopefully) sent back straight away by unnamed guys, and if I'm unlucky, get deported to the happy camp of Guantanamo inc. to have all human rights stripped from me for reasons unknown.
B.
Why would an international conference be in the US (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (Score:3, Insightful)
Next time, drop the rhetoric that has been so popular against homosexuals and illegal aliens recently and instead talk about it in civil terms.
Thanks.
Re:Simple (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Technicality? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because at its very essence the visa wasn't needed--all that was needed was a piece of paper saying that he was working for a company in Germany who was sending him, instead of going over and being "employed" by a company as a trainer in the US.
This is dictionary definition of technicality. One sentence needed to be worded slightly differently even though both sentence variants meant, in terms of the business relationship, basically the same thing. One variant makes the immigration bureaucracy happy, the other blows a multi-thousand dollar trip.
Re:Hurrah! (Score:5, Insightful)
If this is a precedent, then it means that conferences in the USA will only have tutorials run by natives, reducing the quality (since you'll only get the best of a subset of your attendees able to give them, rather than the best).
Re:Technicality? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a technicality because he wouldn't have needed a visa had the contract been between Blackhat and his company. What determines whether he gets in is whether he signed the contract as an individual or as the CEO of his company.
What bothers me about this is not so much that they picked up on this rather minor technicality but that the response is extreme and inflexible. Why not let him fix the technical flaw making the contract with his company? The reason they gave was that he couldn't do this because he had already applied as an individual. So what? That may be immigration policy, but its a stupid, inflexible policy. Similarly, it is ridiculous to bar him forever from using the visa waiver program, though they are indeed applying their normal policy to him. The assumption is that any violation of the rules should be treated as evidence that the individual is untrustworthy and should therefore have to go through the full visa application process. That is an obviously unsound assumption - there are plenty of cases like this one in which the violation is trivial and/or unintentional. Exclusion from the visa waiver program should be restricted to serious, intentional violations.
Look at the big picture, Tom! (Score:1, Insightful)
The current administration of the United States has made "fighting terrorism" their top priority. As I imagine you are well aware, they have started two major armed conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq as part of their so-called "War on Terror". Domestically, there was the PATRIOT Act, the No Fly list, the hassling of innocent photographers, and a wide spectrum of other activities performed in the name of "defending the Homeland".
However, at the very same time we have many of the same members of the administration pushing for lax immigration laws. Some even support amnesty for illegal workers from countries like Mexico, Vietnam, and Guatemala. Some of the proposals we've heard of so far make no mention of screening these aliens who are already in the United States.
So in this case, we have a highly-educated and very legitimate individual wishing to share his advanced security knowledge with a number of Americans. Yet he endures nothing but hassle and expense from the American officials. On the other hand, the same people crying about there not being enough security in America turn around and want to legitimize currently-illegal workers from third-world countries. Mind you, many of these workers are highly uneducated, often criminal, and usually able to do little more than work as a janitor.
To any normal person, it seems stupid that a country with such a fixation on security would turn away a security expert for such a minor reason, while at the same time wanting to legitimize the status of the millions of illegal aliens who are probably far more of a security risk.
Re:Hurrah! (Score:2, Insightful)
And you *can* give a free talk in the states without a work visa. So long as you're not getting paid [or staying longer than the tourist visa allows] they don't care.
So if he just forfeited his pay, he could have done the talk easily. Another way that is legal is to have someone else buy the airfare [if that's the hangup]. afaik it's not illegal to be flown to a conference to give an otherwise free talk, it's probably borderline illegal though, but he could easily and truthfully respond he's not getting paid
Anyways,
Re:Just move BlackHat off the US! (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, this incident doesn't demonstrate any kind of problem with holding conferences in the US. If he had merely planned to attend the conference, he wouldn't have been denied entry. What got him in trouble was his plan to do training for two days prior to the conference, that is, to work in the United States. Granted, he was denied entry on a technicality that he should have been allowed to fix, but what that means is that if you want to work in the US you have to be careful.
Re:Why would an international conference be in the (Score:3, Insightful)
If you hate the way things are look at what your MPs are doing.
I'll be the first to rail against the US but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (Score:2, Insightful)
Explain it to us fucking retards, if you would.
I believe he was making a point about our laws being enforced selectively on a guy who likely was not going to "take" a job from any american, as opposed to illegal mexicans; where every job they take depresses wages and puts one of us out of work. ("us" includes americans of mexican descent, blacks, whites, guest alien workers - everybody).
Not only that, but the fact that they don't (can't) pay taxes and have to go to the emergency room for any medical care means it costs us a lot more than a lost job. Multiply that by the number of kids in the household.
Hell, if anything, a guy like this Dullien raises wages when he comes here to work, and we should be glad to have him. Not my first target in the enforcement of immigration laws.
Re:Technicality? (Score:2, Insightful)
What details are you suggesting I missed? Unless he is fibbing in his blog entry (linked in the summary) it had all the information necessary. No need to speculate.
If the people in the US were paying his company in Germany for him to present then he is a contractor, working in the US.
Under the Visa Waiver Program, an individual working in such a scenario is not considered "working in the US" until they hit 90 days. "The Visa Waiver Program (VWP) enables nationals of certain countries to travel to the United States for tourism or business for stays of 90 days or less without obtaining a visa." From here [state.gov].
Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (Score:2, Insightful)
That's one of the biggest problems in American politics today... nobody is willing to speak the truth because of constant appeals to emotion, ad hominems, character assassinations when the message is too strong to shoot down, etc.
Republicans want to starve your kids, kill the old people and erode the foundation of our country by eliminating immigration!
Democrats want to steal all your money, hate America and drive us back to the stone age!
Republicans hate minorities!
Democrats hate Christians!
Facts and logic rarely enter any political debate anymore, it's all about who can sling the most mud and frame their opponent into a seemingly evil corner.
Re:Hurrah! (Score:3, Insightful)
The blogger makes several excellent points about how foolish the whole situation was, how the application of the law was inconsistent relative both to similar situations in the US as well as international standards, and proffered two different, "do-able," legal solutions that were promptly ignored by the "officers" in question.
The US immigration/Visa regulations are well-known around the world to be something out of the dark ages.
Simply saying "well that's the law" is not informative or illuminating in any way.
Re:Look at the big picture, Tom! (Score:3, Insightful)
This guy just didn't know the rules and a customs agent enforced the laws. He is just doing his job. In my mind, the real news event here is that a Blackhat speaker is causing a big stink on the internet because he wasn't allowed to break the law.
If he was really wearing his 'black hat', a little social engineering would've got him into the country without a second thought.
Re:Works both ways (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Simple (Score:1, Insightful)
There is an offence called lying to US immigration. If you are caught lying, the agent has the authority to ban you from the USA for five years, with no judge, jury, or appeal.
I strongly recommend not lying to US immigration.
Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (Score:5, Insightful)
so what? I mean, americans have this weird sense of what's right and what's wrong. For one, Spanish seems to be some kind of dirty language, something only ugly dark-skinned people speak. It's the language of evil. What's wrong with being bilingual? If schools start teaching spanish people complain. Why? I mean... "the more you know", right? If instead of speaking one language, you can speak 2? That's cool, opens a lot of possibilities.
Also, america is also ashamed of the south. You like white christmas and all that crap, and also, that's the way christmas is supposed to be. I wonder if christmas is white in Florida, or even in New Orleans? No, but you don't talk about that. People in those places go barefoot and drive in dirt roads, ewww. They also chase alligators and fish in the mississippi. I mean, if you're fishing it MUST be in some pretty lake or a crystaline river, surrounded by mountains and brown maple leaves in fucking vermont.
What the fuck is wrong with you people? There's a whole world of things, languages, foods, places, and you complain because ILLEGALS ARE TAKING OUR JOBS AND NOT PAYING TAXES! What good are taxes for? I mean, in my country I can at least get FREE medical attention, even AIDS drugs. Even if I don't have a job and don't pay taxes. Hell, even if I'm not a citizen, I can still get all of that. Do you pay your taxes? What do these taxes do anyway? You need to pay for health, food, college. In my country, at least I can CHOOSE. I can pay for health, or use the State health services (sometimes the latter is better). I can go to a private university, but I can also go (and I do) to a state-funded university (and my degree is just as good in any of them). And I can even get free food from the government (and not food stamps, to be treated like scum at the store).
Do you realize that you are living in a country that spends half of the WORLD'S combined budgets in defense? What good has it been? You had 9/11, but "nobody saw that coming". You had Katrina, but "nobody saw that coming". And it's your fault, because you whine about Wal-Mart, but still buy there. You whine about the illegal immigrants, but if you were a store owner, you would hire one. You whine about catastrophes (natural or terrorism), but you don't have the people you need, because they're fighting in a war far away, trying to STEAL resources from a poor country.
America has the potential to be a fucking PARADISE, if you only cut the crap, the fear of "socialism" and "communism", the "take care of yourself and fuck everyone else" attitude. America never sleeps, they're ever waiting for doomsday to happen, the day China, Korea, or even some crappy island in the pacific will try to attack you. But instead of just waiting, you go and provoke everyone, showing off your weapons and killing innocent people all over the world. Dude, NOTHING will happen to america. Just stop messing with the rest of the world. In the process you will save BILLIONS of dollars, that could be spent in education, health, etc. But no, you have been brainwashed into thinking "that's communism!".
What good is the government for? Are they only there to "govern" you? To tell you what to do? (You know, only in the world's worst dictatorships a police officer draws his gun and put it in your head, let alone "take you in custody" for no reason other than suspected terrorism. Oh yea, and in america that happens too. IF a police officer tells you to get out of the car, and you don't obey, you are likely to be put in front of a loaded gun, or maced. Even if your children are in the car.) You know what that is? That's the government AFRAID of you. How can you live in a country where the government is afraid of you? In my country 15 years ago we gave the people the option to have their retirement funds in a 401(k)-like system. Your money was invested, you get interests from it, etc. Now a
Sending Halvar back is one thing.... (Score:4, Insightful)
And no, not just because ppl should RTFA before engaging in ludicrous parochialisms.
Consider: The Copernican revolution in how the US (unlike any other Western country) deals with travellers like Halvar coming to its borders from a legal, cultural, historical perspective is in the context of a wholesale erosion of human and civil rights -- of American citizens (not the hapless foreigner popping in to educate you). Realise how these incidents do sustained damage to the US reputation, its economy and its already shockingly insular society, and you will also catch a glimpse of the loss of rights and freedoms for Americans themselves.
Re:Hurrah! (Score:1, Insightful)
Now it's stupid and bad for the economy to outright deny visitors/tourists/etc. Point being though it isn't a right. If anyone should fight for it, it should be the citizens. However, the states like most fairly well off countries [e.g. Canada, UK, France, etc] are plagued by undocumented, often unqualified labour forces. So there is a fairly strong sentiment against work visas in the first place.
Not saying it's right, it's just the way things are. Of course it doesn't help peoples causes when they encourage the activity. Maybe, if, for example, Mexico wasn't so back-asswards and corrupt they would put their foot down on illegals who get deported back to Mexico [e.g. jail time or something]. Similar for others like India, who routinely host scores of unqualified staff [re: call centers] that plague western civilization...
Tom
Re:Not A Good Sign (Score:1, Insightful)
The only thing more embarrassing than this was when Xioyun Wang, the Chinese professor who cracked MD5, was denied entry to the US.
No, I'm pretty sure it's worse when you let them in, then throw them in jail (cf. Dmitry Skylarov).
Re:Why would an international conference be in the (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not sure why you were modded information, since you're spreading false information.
In Canada, Public speakers at seminars or conferences that do not go longer than 5 days do not require a work permit, nor do they require a visa if they come from a visa exempt country. Please see the IRPA regulation 186(j) [justice.gc.ca] and the Temporary Foreign Workers policy manual section 5.11 [cic.gc.ca]. Unfortunately, the policy manual is only available in pdf.
Re:Hurrah! (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe, possibly, if, for example, the US wasn't meddling and propping up the corrupt Mexican government for its own personal gain, those illegals you so flippantly disparage would be more than happy to stay home with their families, instead of risking abuse and death just trying to keep them alive. Yours and all borders are nothing more than global Jim Crow [ferris.edu] laws. Despite all the eloquent talk they exist solely to keep the slave trade alive. And another thing, despite the overt violations practiced by all governments and the general attitude of the general population towards these atrocities, all people have a right to travel and live where they please. Unfortunately none of the weaponry throughout the whole world is being used to protect those rights, but freedom to travel is every bit as inalienable as that of the right to speak freely, and we have an obligation to enforce these rights.
Please! Spare us the racist pap. Unless you're working for the Klan, that's not helping anybody's cause either.
Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (Score:2, Insightful)
What's wrong with being bilingual? If schools start teaching spanish people complain. Why? I mean... "the more you know", right? If instead of speaking one language, you can speak 2? That's cool, opens a lot of possibilities.
There's nothing wrong with being bilingual. The proponents of making the US english only see it as a means of protecting our culture, making sure that you can go anywhere in the US and be able to find help if you need it, etc. I respect people's right to do whatever they want (as long as they aren't hurting someone else) but is it really that bad to expect people who want to emigrate to your country to want to actually be a part of that country? By all means, keep your traditions, food, etc and share them with others, but you need to accept some of the culture you decided to be a part of and one of the most fundamental things that define a culture is its language.
Also factor in that, under the 14th Amendment, if you make government accessible in one alternative language, you have to do it for ALL languages (equal protection clause). I don't remember off the top of my head, but that means making every form, guide, service, etc available in more than 100 languages. I think it's cool if you want to learn the language of the family that lives next door... it's not cool for them to force their language on you. Look at the case in Maryland where a rapist had his case thrown out [fredericksburg.com] because they couldn't find a translator for his native language despite him graduating from an US high school which requires fluency in english and his attendence of a state university.
Also, america is also ashamed of the south. You like white christmas and all that crap, and also, that's the way christmas is supposed to be. I wonder if christmas is white in Florida, or even in New Orleans? No, but you don't talk about that. People in those places go barefoot and drive in dirt roads, ewww. They also chase alligators and fish in the mississippi. I mean, if you're fishing it MUST be in some pretty lake or a crystaline river, surrounded by mountains and brown maple leaves in fucking vermont.
There is a large cultural divide between the elitists who live in metropolitan areas in the US and those who live in the south and rural areas. You can see it right here on Slashdot pretty frequently, especially in voting related stories. You see, anyone who doesn't vote the way self-righteous "learned" people do must be idiots. It couldn't be that different people value different things and that living in different areas can give you different perspectives on life. When you're making six figures and only surrounded by similar people, it's easy to look down at anyone who doesn't. Besides, those are the peasants who provide you with things like food so they aren't so much human, they're more like servants to the narcissism of the elite.
What the fuck is wrong with you people? There's a whole world of things, languages, foods, places, and you complain because ILLEGALS ARE TAKING OUR JOBS AND NOT PAYING TAXES! What good are taxes for? I mean, in my country I can at least get FREE medical attention, even AIDS drugs. Even if I don't have a job and don't pay taxes. Hell, even if I'm not a citizen, I can still get all of that. Do you pay your taxes? What do these taxes do anyway? You need to pay for health, food, college. In my country, at least I can CHOOSE. I can pay for health, or use the State health services (sometimes the latter is better). I can go to a private university, but I can also go (and I do) to a state-funded university (and my degree is just as good in any of them). And I can even get free food from the government (and not food stamps, to be treated like scum at the store).
And such is politics. There are those believe that the government should provide everything you'll ever need. Others believe it is up to the individual to achieve those things a
Re:Look at the big picture, Tom! (Score:1, Insightful)
So you're only starting to notice the contradictions? Here are some I've noticed recently:
Some States you are not required to wear a motorcycle helmet, but it is Federal Law that you must wear eye protection on a sunbed.
Policing cheerleader moves for being too 'raunchy' then going to Hooters restaurant after the competition then watching a couple of girls gone wild DVDs.
A democratic system not being allowed to vote on whether a date should be set for withdrawal of US troops from Iraq.
Dallas Love Field Wright Amendment blocking air transport beyond neighboring states somehow promotes competition.
I am not at all surprised that a security expert is denied access to the USA because he was going to educate a Country that is trying to be as secure as it can.
Re:Hurrah! (Score:2, Insightful)
Traveling to the US is becoming a pain and everyday, it is getting worse due to "security".
All of these conferences should just move to Canada, or Mexico, or Costa Rica.
I am from Costa Rica, and you won't have any of these nonsense, plus you get a vacation too
The US is on an economic suicide path.
AC
Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (Score:4, Insightful)
Another example: Spain. France. Germany. I could go on, but those countries are, to a great extent, socialist. Are they worse than America? Don't they get better? (because you say that taking care of yourself, or your community, makes it better). Let me give you an example, and this is true. I have a friend who lives in spain, and he has a young daughter. He told me that the government sent him a letter, reminding him that the girl didn't go to the dentist in over a year. It reminded him that it was free, any dentist he wanted. Scary? I don't think so. That's what I mean by "the government taking care of you". Sure, they don't do it because it's nice, they do it because detecting a cavity early is cheaper than paying for tooth extraction or whatever. But, when was the last time your HMO sent you a letter, reminding you that you should get a check-up?
It's more of a thing of altruism I think. You may never understand me, because we see different things. Let me see if I can explain what I think: you are afraid of giving power to the government, because they will come back later to expect something from you. I see it more, you may say idealistically, but well, I think the government is the PEOPLE. The government gives me things (health, whatever), and it expects me to pay taxes, and nothing else. You too are afraid of your government, because of the way you think (warning: I'm not saying it's wrong, I just say I think different): you always expect something in return, and you think everyone else also expects something in return. Well, I think the government is more harmless than a big corporation. Sure, a huge government monopolizing everything is not healthier either.
Do I hate big corporations? Certainly not, I try to avoid them whenever I can, because you give them more power if you buy things from them. But obviously there are certain things, huge things, that can't be paid by small companies: A large scale network, like the phone, cable, well those are examples of things that can't be done by small companies.
But then you have the big corporation scandals, all over the place. Enron, Worldcom... A tiny government that allows itself to be lobbied, and that's what happens. Big corporations care only about the numbers, and WILL fuck anything they need in order to keep their numbers high enough (the premise is "it's never enough").
You also say that "Spending that money brought down the Iron Curtain and freed western Europe." What? Are you on crack or what? That money actually help build the iron curtain. The USSR wasn't as bad as you and I were told it was. If they were poor it was only because you provoked them, you made them spend more and more in weapons and military. If you weren't there to bother them, they MIGHT have been a happy communist country, and nothing else. But no, america can't stand the idea of communism, not even socialism, so we have to destroy it. You didn't free western europe either. You only went there because the japs touched your ass. It wasn't your war. Vietnam wasn't either, and you were there to "free" them.
See it this way: If you didn't shake the USSR, maybe they wouldn't have needed so many AK-47s. Those AK's wouldn't be in the hand of muslim extremists now. They wouldn't be so powerful, maybe 9/11 wouldn't have happened if you didn't bring down the iron courtain. That's how I see it.
Dude, wake up. War is business. Billions of dollars in the hands of the corporations who make the weapons, and that's